[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[Lord Raziere]

The biggest thing that PoW has that Spheres of Might doesn't seem like it'd be very capable of doing is having supernatural fighting styles. Simply casting a sphere-casting spell at the same time as using an attack doesn't really seem as interesting as the supernatural initiator disciplines.

Yes thats definitely where PoW is stronger, much better at forming a coherent style and things that combine together to work as a supernatural martial art, fighting technique wise Spheres of Might seems more of a free "learn whatever technique works for you" thing, like you can use Legendary Talents to learn individual cool one-off techniques, but not entire fighting styles, which is why I'd put Spheres of Might as a utility thing to compliment a PoW gestalt set up, because you can select a PoW class, focus on a solid fighting style to get you strong, then your second class you gestalted with is something for utility like the Blacksmith or something to get good at some other role than combat and maybe include a couple one-off Legendary Talents to help your PoW discipline with some techniques that just do something different. Like just PoW class/Conscript Gestalt alone just allows for so many possibilities, simply because of the great amounts of talents and bonus feats that it provides. add things like the Scholar, the Blacksmith, the Troubadour and you got a lot of potential.

Sure there is the Sage class for supernatural martial arts, but its like the most DBZ class there is. I like DBZ yes, but all of its techniques are basically energy hammers. though I do see some Fist of the North Star in the Sage, and it does try to form some kind of coherent style with its style talent. which I like, I'm not against it, could be useful if someone is against PoW but likes Spheres of Might for whatever reason, or if I can see some way of using the spheres to do a style that isn't in Path of War, and to be fair, the Path of War disciplines are kind of specific. I'm serious, the Sage class is more DBZ than anything in Path of War. not in power, but in method. Ok, Mystic with the Aurora Soul archetype is close, but it can't do anything so specific as make a Destructo-Disc. like in Path of War, even the more supernatural styles feel more like doing tricks that cause varied things to happen, Sage is just straight up going super-saiyan and firing kamehamehas and hadokens. it can do some things other than that to be fair, but they're pretty DBZ-like stuff. which fits Spheres of Might in general, because DBZ shares the same ideas SoM has on techniques being learnable without needing styles behind them. its still doing something different than PoW, even if they're in the same avenue, so could be a good class for like portraying a pure ki user who focuses on the fundamentals of it rather than doing some specific style like Shattered Mirror or Riven Hourglass, and could be good for portraying a gestalt where someone who both trains in the more esoteric specific styles of PoW and the more fundamental universal stuff from the Sage. The Sage even has ki healing abilities, so thats even a good utility thing right there, its still serving utility role.

Its not Path of War, but thats okay, we already have path of war, what we need is something different, and Spheres of Might I think is going in the right direction for that.


Spheres of Might has been released.

Ah frell, really? I was just commenting this because I was bored, now I'm thinking of getting it cause its so good.

[Mithril Leaf]

Spheres of Might has been released.

Awesome! I was watching with excitement for just that news!

Now when will the updated playtest documents for the sphere hybrids come out? :smallwink:

[Milo v3]

Reading the full product is really cool. I didn't see Mad Scientist till now. I was just about to make a Vizier//Wizard for a campaign my group is about to run as an ethically dubious Mad Scientist manapunk crafter with Iron-Man Armour, but Vizier//Mad Scientist [Technican] will work amazingly and be ridiculously better balanced.

edit: With the permanent gadgets improvement, is "3 uses" meant to be "3 uses per day"?

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, I didn't know Mad Scientist was there either, I'll have to keep that one in mind, as well as the Technician in general, Spheres of Might might just be my go to source for the inventor concepts and guys who use gear rather than martial arts.

that and I just remember: Barroom sphere! more PoW gestalt utility: Drunken Master style with any discipline.

[RedMop]

Where do we submit issues?

Piranha Strike is missing the bold prereq and benefit.

[EldritchWeaver]

Where do we submit issues?

Piranha Strike is missing the bold prereq and benefit.

I'd suggest to create a topic for this on the DSS forum: http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/spheres-of-might/

[Mehangel]

I'd suggest to create a topic for this on the DSS forum:

I have went ahead and created the Spheres of Might - Formatting, Grammar, and Punctuation Errors (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/20171012/spheres-of-might-formatting-grammer-and-punct-5539418/) thread.

[RedMop]

I'd suggest to create a topic for this on the DSS forum: http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/spheres-of-might/

Awesome. I didn't want to get any work done today anyway. ;)

[calyst]

Wow lot of significant changes from playtest to published. Jump Dragoon as an actual thing is pretty much gone or at least getting any combat benefit from it is gone. EDIT - After comments from designers hoping this gets fixed so will withhold judgement.

[Ssalarn]

Wow lot of significant changes from playtest to published. Jump Dragoon as an actual thing is pretty much gone or at least getting any combat benefit from it is gone. Kinda makes me regret backing the kickstarter as that was the main reason I backed it.

I know there were some issues in the damage math of some of the jump attack mechanics that needed some limiters on them, but my understanding was that the functions themselves were being kept. I've bumped the team members who were working on those options so they can come in and talk about them.

[Doc_Maynot]

The Legendary Lunges are gone. :smallfrown:

[Adam Meyers]

@Calyst: The original dragoon leap strike was a bit redundant since we already had Diving Strike and Air Stunt, so it was removed. That being said, reading over the language of diving strike I see a language hitch in that combination, but we can update that before going to print.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Now that SoM is released, should questions about it go here or the Spheres of Power Ask Me Anything #2 thread? Both seem wrong (because it's not in playtest anymore, but it's also definitely not Spheres of Power by definition) but at the same time a new separate thread seems like it might be overkill.

[N. Jolly]

Now that SoM is released, should questions about it go here or the Spheres of Power Ask Me Anything #2 thread? Both seem wrong (because it's not in playtest anymore, but it's also definitely not Spheres of Power by definition) but at the same time a new separate thread seems like it might be overkill.

I'd probably say SoM needs its own thread, but that's more for my convenience.

[stack]

I think here works for now, though a fresh thread might be good eventually.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'd suggest, at the very least, editing the first post with an updated thread title.

[Doc_Maynot]

So, question about the addition to "Combat Training for Non-Spheres of Might Classes"
If Armorists trade out their Low-Caster spellcasting for Proficient combat training, can they still benefit from things like "Shadow Armory"? What about a Soaring Blade Armorist? Would they still gain their Telekinetic talents at full CL since they aren't a part of the casting feature?

[Sam C.]

A few things I noticed:

Having one of the unarmed spheres doesn't actually grant you similar benefits to the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. The unarmed combatants section in the introduction only talks about damage dealt. The other sensible place to put those benefits, the Unarmed Training talent in the Equipment sphere, doesn't have them either.
The Alchemy conscript specialization 3rd level ability grants a non-benefit to poison users.
The Hammer talent from the Brute sphere mentions the damage dealt by that talent being calculated in part using the practitioner's BAB, but doesn't say how.


Also, I'm happy that the option to trade in part or all of your standard feat progression for talents made it into the final product, but the adept progression feat loss really favors games that don't go past 11th level. Personally, I don't see why characters who take the adept progression have to lose the same feats as those who take the proficient progression. Having them lose the feats gained at 1st, 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, and 19th level seems better to me.

You guys did awesome work, thanks.

[Mithril Leaf]

Also, I'm happy that the option to trade in part or all of your standard feat progression for talents made it into the final product, but the adept progression feat loss really favors games that don't go past 11th level. Personally, I don't see why characters who take the adept progression have to lose the same feats as those who take the proficient progression. Having them lose the feats gained at 1st, 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, and 19th level seems better to me.

You guys did awesome work, thanks.

From the original thread for this back in January:

Hey just wanted to chime in saying I'm excited for this book! I am concerned about two main things though. One is the Same accuracy is really bad. Two is that there seems to be no real reason to trade feats for proficient when adept has functionally the same cost, considering levels past twelve basically don't exist.

So it should be a known issue that people thought about already. And then decided to do anyway for what I'm sure is a well considered reason.

[Sam C.]

So it should be a known issue that people thought about already. And then decided to do anyway for what I'm sure is a well considered reason.

I would like to hear that reason, assuming there was one.

Another potential issue: the Find Gap talent in the Scout sphere has a limited duration, triggered when (I assume) you first scout an enemy, which conflicts with the general scout rule stating that any talents tied to the scout ability can be used at any time in the next 24 hours.

[Ssalarn]

So, question about the addition to "Combat Training for Non-Spheres of Might Classes"
If Armorists trade out their Low-Caster spellcasting for Proficient combat training, can they still benefit from things like "Shadow Armory"? What about a Soaring Blade Armorist? Would they still gain their Telekinetic talents at full CL since they aren't a part of the casting feature?


I would like to hear that reason, assuming there was one.


That's actually a mistake we're fixing. The version of the talent to feat conversion that got published wasn't actually meant to be, so expect a different set-up when we run the update next month ahead of the print run. There's not supposed to be an Expert level trade, just the proficient and the adept, and they're supposed to be on shifted progressions from those currently presented.



Another potential issue: the Find Gap talent in the Scout sphere has a limited duration, triggered when (I assume) you first scout an enemy, which conflicts with the general scout rule stating that any talents tied to the scout ability can be used at any time in the next 24 hours.

This was something that the group decided to put on a shorter timer due to the high benefit involved. It does have a much shorter timer than most other Scout abilities, but that's intentional. It's more of a "Aha, that orc stepped on a rock and his favoring his left foot at the moment so I can use that to catch him off balance" than a "Smaug has a missing scale right over his heart" kind of thing.

[khadgar567]

Is prodigy get 20 talents on both sides( might and power) or they just have 20 talents.

[Quarian Rex]

I keep hearing mention of the Sage. Anyone have a link?

[Lord Raziere]

I keep hearing mention of the Sage. Anyone have a link?

This post:


Just wanted to pop in and note that the update should be officially and completely rolled out at this point, for anyone who hasn't seen/heard.

Links in the OP should be good, but reposting them here just in case:
Sphere 1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/160bWvYewTwEXj9ZZv-jJ9-VrvGpYNHNcF8w6BMsdqgU/edit?usp=sharing)
Sphere 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18GNWQDmpjanVcU70kgclv1YIwTRdSf4l8RnocE38EHQ/edit?usp=sharing)
Sphere 3 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L91c2pA-nfxPb1CTnIJP2gJuajkDLm38QQPjYsejw9M/edit?usp=sharing)
Class 1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/10yLIsMysbXjhy2LlcaVmbn1IKf5LK7Bg_Dx0S02Xzh0/edit?usp=sharing)
Class 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VYwDviOaKDDQGd1CdjYjRDbzJuRR1SZOV0DS6KpiYNs/edit?usp=sharing)
CotS classes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guWyA71djzV6wzido7yPXbxzPKRbkG0cU-on0zocua4/edit?usp=sharing)
Legendary Talents (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J-o68lhnPMKr3B5U-Y9cLVt68nN_kQ8YBesnS53kiOY/edit?usp=sharing)
Additional Rules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oEH4xOaNLWYf4bW1tprKx-BIJVoiSLW2iWpwc-h7o8w/edit?usp=sharing)
Archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1grzUUNXCPaVrhvrh2-ePOBKnxWDuqdHLTH77dcMZhiE/edit?usp=sharing)

Click on "CotS classes". the Sage and Troubadour are the two classes there, and also the two classes that aren't in the Spheres of Might book thats out right now, so probably getting their own release, but I don't know what "CotS" means....

[khadgar567]

CotS== champions of the spheres aka spheres of might and power hybrid book

[Doc_Maynot]

That's actually a mistake we're fixing. The version of the talent to feat conversion that got published wasn't actually meant to be, so expect a different set-up when we run the update next month ahead of the print run. There's not supposed to be an Expert level trade, just the proficient and the adept, and they're supposed to be on shifted progressions from those currently presented.

My question was about the spell casting trade though it is nice to hear about the feat trade mechanic.

[RedMop]

Is prodigy get 20 talents on both sides( might and power) or they just have 20 talents.


Combat and Magic Talents
A prodigy gains a combat or magic talent every time she gains a class level, according to Table: prodigy.

Text trumps table.

[khadgar567]

Text trumps table.
Then we might need fix or confirmation for this

[stack]

Prodigy get 1 talent of either type each level.

[Quarian Rex]

Click on "CotS classes". the Sage and Troubadour are the two classes there, and also the two classes that aren't in the Spheres of Might book thats out right now, so probably getting their own release, but I don't know what "CotS" means....

Much thanks. I haven't looked at Spheres of might in quite a while. I saw that it was out then came here to see if it was worth it. After looking at a couple of the classes and a couple spheres I bought the book so I could peruse in a more gentlemanly fashion. Didn't realize that anything was left out. Sage looks interesting and I'm looking forward to CoS.

[Sam C.]

That's actually a mistake we're fixing. The version of the talent to feat conversion that got published wasn't actually meant to be, so expect a different set-up when we run the update next month ahead of the print run. There's not supposed to be an Expert level trade, just the proficient and the adept, and they're supposed to be on shifted progressions from those currently presented.
Okay. Good to know.


This was something that the group decided to put on a shorter timer due to the high benefit involved. It does have a much shorter timer than most other Scout abilities, but that's intentional. It's more of a "Aha, that orc stepped on a rock and his favoring his left foot at the moment so I can use that to catch him off balance" than a "Smaug has a missing scale right over his heart" kind of thing.
In that case, might I suggest modifying it so that it can be activated once (as a swift action or as part of the action used to scout) during the 24 hour window? That would put it better in line with the scout ability, and make it so you don't effectively lose the talent if you happen to get the opportunity to scout your opponents before combat starts (such as when, well, scouting, or while waiting for negotiations to break down with the orcs guarding the bridge).

One last question. I remember seeing discussion about including a sidebar or something in SoM giving recommendations for combat feat modifications (such as giving all characters the Vital Strike feat chain for free). What happened with that?

[EldritchWeaver]

One last question. I remember seeing discussion about including a sidebar or something in SoM giving recommendations for combat feat modifications (such as giving all characters the Vital Strike feat chain for free). What happened with that?

It's not in the book. Don't know why though.

[Slavezero]

how come the conscript can't gain trap-finding? i would have thought that it's ability to pick and choose so many different powers you could grab trap-finding as well

[Mehangel]

how come the conscript can't gain trap-finding? i would have thought that it's ability to pick and choose so many different powers you could grab trap-finding as well

I am also surprised, even if Trapfinding isn't enough by itself, it could've been paired with a scaling Trap Sense. Of course if you really want Trapfinding, I am pretty sure the Scout or Trap sphere include talents for acquiring such.

[EldritchWeaver]

I am also surprised, even if Trapfinding isn't enough by itself, it could've been paired with a scaling Trap Sense. Of course if you really want Trapfinding, I am pretty sure the Scout or Trap sphere include talents for acquiring such.

Actually, I don't find any text related to "you count as rogue" in the Trap sphere, where it should belong to the base ability, since it allows you to collect other people traps.

Otherwise, I noticed that some spheres have been renamed from ending with "-ing". I fully support this move, but it doesn't go far enough. We still have Boxing, Dual Wielding, Fencing, and Wrestling. Those need to be renamed, too!

[Mehangel]

Something else I noticed is that there isn't a Berserker talent or feat which increases the temporary hit points of the Berserker sphere base ability (similar to the Guardian sphere's Greater Delayed Damage talent).

I imagine that if written as a Berserker talent it would be written as follows:

Greater Berserker
The amount of temporary hit points granted by your Berserker sphere base ability increases by +1 per point of base attack bonus you possess. You may take this talent twice; the effects stack.

I imagine that if written as a feat it would be written as follows:

Greater Berserker (Combat)
Prerequisites: Berserker sphere, BAB +5
Benefit: Increase the temporary hit points granted by the Berserker sphere base ability by your base attack bonus.
Special: You may take this feat a second time at BAB +10, a third time at BAB +15, and a fourth time at BAB +20; its effects stack.

As a sidenote: It might be useful to actually name the Berserker base sphere ability, maybe something like Frenzy, Fury, Ire, or Wrath.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Otherwise, I noticed that some spheres have been renamed from ending with "-ing". I fully support this move, but it doesn't go far enough. We still have Boxing, Dual Wielding, Fencing, and Wrestling. Those need to be renamed, too!
Boxing, Fencing, and Wrestling are all actual fighting styles with names though. What could they even call Fencing at this point since Dueling's already taken? I agree that "duel wielding" could use a more evocative name though.

[Doc_Maynot]

Dashing Dualism? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302593-Two-Swords-One-Happy-Ending-The-Dashing-Dualist-TWF-has-never-been-so-heroic-3-5)

[stack]

I think upping the THP from berserker too much would strongly encourage overinvesting in a narrow aspect of a character, giving too potent a payoff while making a boring character. Especially when you can delay damage with guardian and activate the THP the next turn.

[Slavezero]

could someone explain the choke hold wrestling talent to me? i want to make sure i have this right. if i can grab them without them having held they're breath they immediately start to suffocate and need to make con checks or drop unconscious or do i have that wrong?

[Mehangel]

I think upping the THP from berserker too much would strongly encourage overinvesting in a narrow aspect of a character, giving too potent a payoff while making a boring character. Especially when you can delay damage with guardian and activate the THP the next turn.

While I agree that at low levels combining the Berserker's temp hp with the Guardian's delayed damage pool is potent, as you gain levels the temp hp is less and less relevant. For example, at level 20 you will only have 23 temporary hit points each round, while a CR 20 creature is dealing an average of 90-120 damage with their attacks. Allowing a talent that allows it to increase the temp hp bonus by it's BAB once or twice will significantly keep the ability relevant.

[Ssalarn]

I think upping the THP from berserker too much would strongly encourage overinvesting in a narrow aspect of a character, giving too potent a payoff while making a boring character. Especially when you can delay damage with guardian and activate the THP the next turn.

Agreed. Trying to amp the buffer up to over 100 temp hp would be much too powerful and ignores the underpinnings of the system, negating resource expenditure and trivializing encounters. It ignores the fact that our system also offers counters, healing, and other defensive boosts that are available at those later levels as well. Someone with a pool of 100 temp hp that they can use to cycle into a delayed damage pool every round and a counter they can use to deflect an attack has just made themselves functionally immune to several attacks a round for the cost of about 5 talents (a cost you can actually set up right out of the gate with the right class and martial tradition). It works currently because the numbers are correct. Absorbing 23 hit points a round is relevant, even at the high levels where it becomes an option. That's still around 1/3-1/4 of a big attack and essentially all of a single attack from an enemy like a doomsayer (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/bard.html#doomsayer), or even a balor (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/demon.html#demon-balor).

[Adam Meyers]

@Mehangel: 'average' is the optimal word there. There are martial ways around every martial tank; AC tanks can be grappled, DR tanks can be hit hard, etc. However, a tank with 100 temp hp that refreshes each round is way worse than any of those; even if he is knocked to the ground or grappled first, he can only be shut down if he's facing a massive enemy, or is surrounded by a great many foes; any BBEG who DOESN'T hit you for 100+ damage per round is effectively useless.

Considering especially how easy it is to add berserker and guardian onto any standard tank build (just 2 talents and it stacks with whatever DR barbarian/tower shield tank you were previously using), there are currently no plans to add a temp. hp-increasing talent to Berseker

[Aipaca]

Do you risk poisoning yourself when applying your Alchemy Sphere poison to a weapon? I assume so but it doesn't make it clear in the ability, a sentence clarifying would be nice where it defines how you apply the poison.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I was pretty disappointed (to say the least) to hear that the feats given up by the Coiled Blade archetype for the Fighter got reverted back to its old 1/4/8/12/16/20, rendering it once again incompatible with the fun and interesting Fighter SoP archetypes like War Hero from Battlemage's Handbook (War sphere) or the Impossible Warrior archetype from the Protection sphere handbook playtest. Par for the course I guess, most of the SoP/SoM archetypes are incompatible with each other, which takes a lot of fun out of the whole archetype system/design as a player.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey, quick question:

Can the Mad Scientist make multiple of his wacky inventions? IE two Portal Guns at once, when he is level 3.

[exelsisxax]

Is it just me, or is dual-wielding even more lackluster than vanilla TWF? It takes a ton of investment to do as much damage as a standard 2H power attacker, doing anything cool requires hitting with main-off hand pairs, and there's barely any scaling. I don't see the point for anything other than TWF-PA with 2H weapons with legendary talents.

[NomGarret]

I'm having fun pouring over the book to find all the post-playtest changes, though if one of the devs felt like giving a brief overview, that would be ok, too. In particular, I like the changes to the Scoundrel base ability. It does a better job of letting them set up their own combos without relying on other spheres to set up battered. If they do have another party member setting it up for them, they get to save a swift action. Awesome.

Quick question re: Hurricane Strike. Does it deal bleed damage to the secondary targets? My guess is 'no', as it doesn't seem like that's part of "normal weapon damage," but I figure it's worth asking.

[Ssalarn]

I'm having fun pouring over the book to find all the post-playtest changes, though if one of the devs felt like giving a brief overview, that would be ok, too. In particular, I like the changes to the Scoundrel base ability. It does a better job of letting them set up their own combos without relying on other spheres to set up battered. If they do have another party member setting it up for them, they get to save a swift action. Awesome.

Quick question re: Hurricane Strike. Does it deal bleed damage to the secondary targets? My guess is 'no', as it doesn't seem like that's part of "normal weapon damage," but I figure it's worth asking.

Yeah, only the primary target gets bleed damage, not the secondary targets from Hurricane Strike's sweep attack.


Is it just me, or is dual-wielding even more lackluster than vanilla TWF? It takes a ton of investment to do as much damage as a standard 2H power attacker, doing anything cool requires hitting with main-off hand pairs, and there's barely any scaling. I don't see the point for anything other than TWF-PA with 2H weapons with legendary talents.


Mathematically, the increased chance to crit off of an attack action by making the second attack is fully equivalent to the damage from two-handing. Dual Wielding also doesn't require stat splitting and even offers ways to overcome the increased enhancement costs normally associated with TWF, as well as many other modifications to improve general damage and facility.


Do you risk poisoning yourself when applying your Alchemy Sphere poison to a weapon? I assume so but it doesn't make it clear in the ability, a sentence clarifying would be nice where it defines how you apply the poison.


There was a line to that effect and I'm not sure what happened to it. Working on getting it fixed.

[Adam Meyers]

@Mithral Leaf: Yeah, they can make multiples of the same mad scientist inventions, up to their maximum.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm having fun pouring over the book to find all the post-playtest changes, though if one of the devs felt like giving a brief overview, that would be ok, too.

If you find something noteworthy, then feel free to post this here by yourself. ;)

[NomGarret]

Well, for starters, most Discipline talents just give proficiency now, and not the small, scaling bonuses. The ones that add an enabling clause still seem to do so.

[Galacktic]

So as this is relevant to a character in an upcoming game, what's the feat cost for the adept track since Expert isn't a thing, then?

[Ssalarn]

So as this is relevant to a character in an upcoming game, what's the feat cost for the adept track since Expert isn't a thing, then?


According to our errata document that would be-

Pg. 10 (9): Change the Adept progression exchanged feats to 1, 3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 17, 19.

Proficient remains the same and as already noted, we're not currently planning on retaining the Expert progression since it wasn't really intended to be in the book in the first place.

[Slavezero]

could someone explain the choke hold wrestling talent to me? i want to make sure i have this right. if i can grab them without them having held they're breath they immediately start to suffocate and need to make con checks or drop unconscious or do i have that wrong?

i'd like if someone could answer this please. or is this something i have to ask my GM?

[Ssalarn]

i'd like if someone could answer this please. or is this something i have to ask my GM?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you but I needed to get in touch with the talent's author and see what was supposed to be happening here.
Essentially there was a fundamental misunderstanding of how suffocation worked and as written, Choke Hold is an insta-win against any creature that didn't know to hold their breath before being grappled, much stronger than the author intended. Since removing the text preventing someone from holding their breath would make the ability so time consuming as to be impractical and a less-than-great use of a talent, it's likely that the talent will be pulled entirely before we go to print.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Just for confirmation, does the bit about being able to trade casting (including spherecasting) for SoM progression apply to SoP classes (such as Armorist or Mageknight) as well? And in the case of giving up spherecasting for SoM, do you give up both the Casting and Spell Pool class features, or just Casting? I was hoping to trade casting for SoM talents on Mageknight while still having spell points to fuel Mystic Combats (very gish-y, no overt magic but instead a powerfully augmented by magic martial), but now I'm doubting that that is even possible.

[stack]

Just for confirmation, does the bit about being able to trade casting (including spherecasting) for SoM progression apply to SoP classes (such as Armorist or Mageknight) as well? And in the case of giving up spherecasting for SoM, do you give up both the Casting and Spell Pool class features, or just Casting? I was hoping to trade casting for SoM talents on Mageknight while still having spell points to fuel Mystic Combats (very gish-y, no overt magic but instead a powerfully augmented by magic martial), but now I'm doubting that that is even possible.

The CotS playtest should have a better alternative to that when it goes live in the near future. I will let another team member answer the actual question though.

[AlienFromBeyond]

The CotS playtest should have a better alternative to that when it goes live in the near future.
That's a good point, I look forward to that.

[Mehangel]

The CotS playtest should have a better alternative to that when it goes live in the near future. I will let another team member answer the actual question though.

I am also curious because both the Mageknight and Armorist have Key class features that rely on spell points. Again, I dont mind losing 'Casting' and 'Magic Talents' class features, but if spherecasting classes also lose the 'Spell Pool' class feature, it can potentially gut more class features than intended.

[Mithril Leaf]

Wouldn't it make sense for the Unarmed Training (at the least, arguable also Gun Kata and Monk Weapon Training) talent from the Equipment Sphere to count as an Unarmed Talent for the purpose of increasing your Unarmed Damage? Also maybe Drunken Boxer from the Barroom Sphere. Also checking, but the ability to count as a size larger on that same damage table from being a Monk or Brawler does or does not stack with other size increases?

[Slavezero]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you but I needed to get in touch with the talent's author and see what was supposed to be happening here.
Essentially there was a fundamental misunderstanding of how suffocation worked and as written, Choke Hold is an insta-win against any creature that didn't know to hold their breath before being grappled, much stronger than the author intended. Since removing the text preventing someone from holding their breath would make the ability so time consuming as to be impractical and a less-than-great use of a talent, it's likely that the talent will be pulled entirely before we go to print.

will it be reworked or replaced or are you just removing it? maybe change it so it cuts how long they can hold they're breath by half or something?

[Aipaca]

Anyone have a character sheet that works well with Spheres? I use the Neceros fillable PDF one currently but putting all of the relevant SoM info in there is a bit of a pain.

[stack]

I use mythweavers and assign each sphere a number. By having a prefix number the spheres sort better. Base sphere is number-sphere, talent is number(space)talent. Also allows you to track differing DCs in the DC by spell level area. Don't know for printed sheets or other formats.

[Cranky Mcduff]

Throwing Mastery. How does this resolve with multiple attacks(Barrage Sphere or iterative attacks for example)? Can you do all of those attacks with one weapon? Do you need multiple weapons? Tongue in cheek, but how do you bounce a javelin off of someone?

Bought the pdf and I'm loving it so far. Money well spent, thank you!

Side note: if there is an official question thread could someone point me to it?

[Aipaca]

I use mythweavers and assign each sphere a number. By having a prefix number the spheres sort better. Base sphere is number-sphere, talent is number(space)talent. Also allows you to track differing DCs in the DC by spell level area. Don't know for printed sheets or other formats.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Been looking over the Conscript a lot, and I feel like the Sphere Specialisations are pretty weak for the ~7 feats you are giving up to get them. Would it be too late to make Sphere Spec. worth 2 points? I realise that you guys have done a lot of playtesting with everything, but I can't for the life of me work out how it's worth it, especially considering as far as I can tell by RAW the answer to my next question is no.

For the "Conscript level+1=BAB for your specialised sphere" ability, does that stack with BAB you get from other classes? I understand that you are trying to not replicate the dipping heaven that is the Incanter, but it's definitely a bum deal if it doesn't stack.

Finally, does the aforementioned "Conscript level+1=BAB" ability include for attack actions associated with a Sphere, eg. a Deadly Shot?

Thanks again, loving SoM so far.

[Ualaa]

I'm using the Hero Lab app, which obviously is Spheres of Power but not Spheres of Might (yet).

The print out doesn't include spheres in the spells section, but you get the full descriptions in 'Abilities' if you want the long print out.

The Spheres tab has everything you'd want available, but that's assuming you have a laptop with you, or something similar.

[EldritchWeaver]

Bestial Training is confusing me. It sounds at first that you choose a natural weapon at the point of time, when you take the feat, but the rest of text implies that you can and need to choose different natural weapons during an attack. So what is the intention?

[Galacktic]

Question about Duelist! Does its bleed stack with itself? Talking about the base sphere ability, does activate that bleed on a single opponent multiple times stack so you go from say, 2 to 4 to 6...thanks in advance!

[AlienFromBeyond]

Bleed never stacks unless it specifically states otherwise. That's just a default of Pathfinder itself.

[Mehangel]

In the Open Hand sphere there are a couple of talents that purposefully make yourself prone against creatures within melee range, and yet I see no talent that removes or reduces the -4 penalty to AC for being prone (There is a talent that mitigates your penalty to attack rolls while prone). Any chance of a talent being added that resolves this issue?

[EldritchWeaver]

Vanish doesn't allow to ignore the cover requirement as Hellcat Stealth does, even though it should. Hellcat Stealth should be associated, too.

[Lirya]

Options for mundane stealth that ignores cover/concealment can quickly become disruptive in play in my experience. But adding a clause allowing you to combine Vanish with Walk Unseen to ignore the cover/concealment requirement every other round seems appropriate and fair.

[N. Jolly]

Bestial Training is confusing me. It sounds at first that you choose a natural weapon at the point of time, when you take the feat, but the rest of text implies that you can and need to choose different natural weapons during an attack. So what is the intention?

I thought this was getting moved over to the monster section, but after discussion, it's probably going to be dropped, as it was meant as a way to allow more attacks, and we've decided that wouldn't be for the best here.


In the Open Hand sphere there are a couple of talents that purposefully make yourself prone against creatures within melee range, and yet I see no talent that removes or reduces the -4 penalty to AC for being prone (There is a talent that mitigates your penalty to attack rolls while prone). Any chance of a talent being added that resolves this issue?

There is not, if there was it would be better to fight prone than to fight while standing, which wasn't something we wanted, as you still get the +2 to AC against ranged attacks. The attack penalty removal was to make prone fighting viable, removing the AC penalty would change that to optimal, which was something we wanted to avoid.

[EldritchWeaver]

Options for mundane stealth that ignores cover/concealment can quickly become disruptive in play in my experience. But adding a clause allowing you to combine Vanish with Walk Unseen to ignore the cover/concealment requirement every other round seems appropriate and fair.

What do you mean with "every other round"? Something like this?

Round 1: Hide everywhere. Round 2: Be seen. Round 3: Hide everywhere. Round 4: Be seen. Round 5: ...

That would not help at all.


I thought this was getting moved over to the monster section, but after discussion, it's probably going to be dropped, as it was meant as a way to allow more attacks, and we've decided that wouldn't be for the best here.

Maybe my understanding is incorrect, but I thought you wouldn't get additional attacks, but instead can substitute unarmed strikes with a natural weapon. How is that unbalanced?

[Mehangel]

On the subject of Champions of the Spheres, can you tell us of any changes to the Sage class? Mostly I am curious about the following:
- Has the Sage class been modified so to be given the 'Casting' class feature, so that it could
A) Gain a Casting Tradition (perhaps granting bonus ki points instead of spell points during levels where such would be gained)
B) Resolve issues with Sage characters who multiclass into other spherecasting classes.
C) Resolve issues for meeting spherecasting feat prerequisites? (including feats such as: Cantrips (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc8), Circle Casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc13), Contingency (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc15), Counterspell (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/counterspell-feats), Create Spellbook (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc17), Ritual Caster (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc44), Spellcrafting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc54), etc)
- How many archetypes are currently being worked on for the Sage class (if any), and what do they do?

[NomGarret]

Maybe my understanding is incorrect, but I thought you wouldn't get additional attacks, but instead can substitute unarmed strikes with a natural weapon. How is that unbalanced?

That was my understanding of its function, to explicitly allow natural attacks in instances that would otherwise require unarmed attacks.

[Ssalarn]

That was my understanding of its function, to explicitly allow natural attacks in instances that would otherwise require unarmed attacks.

That was half the function, which we're planning on rolling into the Unarmed Training discipline alongside the other "treat these as unarmed strikes" weapons in that talent. The other pieces of the talent were both contradictory and potentially very out of line with the other talents and general design directive of the book, which is why we're looking at yanking the talent and shifting the piece we want to keep over.

[Mithril Leaf]

Oh hey, the Toolsmith ability of the Blacksmith still does literally nothing because it increases the competence bonus granted by Masterwork tools which do not and have not ever granted a competence bonus. I feel like this may be a byproduct of the book fetisihizing competence bonuses like DSP does to insight bonuses. For the record, they grant a circumstance bonus.

[EldritchWeaver]

Oh hey, the Toolsmith ability of the Blacksmith still does literally nothing because it increases the competence bonus granted by Masterwork tools which do not and have not ever granted a competence bonus. I feel like this may be a byproduct of the book fetisihizing competence bonuses like DSP does to insight bonuses. For the record, they grant a circumstance bonus.

Competence bonuses are problematic, because they prevent that you can use skill bonus items without wasting class features/talents. This prevents optimizing to the degree that you are able to beat low-op characters to 100% in opposed skill checks.

Also, I'm not really enamored with Great Senses and Read Foe. All they do is granting Perception/Sense Motive ranks per Hit Die. Evey other way to gain ranks is by a base sphere, which grants an additional bonus. So the sole reason to take those talents is that happen already to have their base sphere and one combat talent to spare (or even two talents to spare) and not enough skill points. I am missing currently some oomph for these.

[Ssalarn]

Oh hey, the Toolsmith ability of the Blacksmith still does literally nothing because it increases the competence bonus granted by Masterwork tools which do not and have not ever granted a competence bonus. I feel like this may be a byproduct of the book fetisihizing competence bonuses like DSP does to insight bonuses. For the record, they grant a circumstance bonus.

Probably got caught in a sweep that was being done to normalize bonus types. We use set bonus types to limit stacking and preserve the math framework of the game and system; in SoM competence represents the bonus type we felt was the best fit for martial, well, competence, as well as preventing those abilities from excessively stacking with other options and further distorting the math of the skill system since it gets used heavily in our talents. Anyways, I'll add that to the list so it works as intended.

[Aipaca]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Been looking over the Conscript a lot, and I feel like the Sphere Specialisations are pretty weak for the ~7 feats you are giving up to get them. Would it be too late to make Sphere Spec. worth 2 points? I realise that you guys have done a lot of playtesting with everything, but I can't for the life of me work out how it's worth it, especially considering as far as I can tell by RAW the answer to my next question is no.

For the "Conscript level+1=BAB for your specialised sphere" ability, does that stack with BAB you get from other classes? I understand that you are trying to not replicate the dipping heaven that is the Incanter, but it's definitely a bum deal if it doesn't stack.

Finally, does the aforementioned "Conscript level+1=BAB" ability include for attack actions associated with a Sphere, eg. a Deadly Shot?

Thanks again, loving SoM so far.

Just a bit of a bump for these Conscript questions?

Thanks :smallsmile:

[Ssalarn]

Been looking over the Conscript a lot, and I feel like the Sphere Specialisations are pretty weak for the ~7 feats you are giving up to get them. Would it be too late to make Sphere Spec. worth 2 points? I realise that you guys have done a lot of playtesting with everything, but I can't for the life of me work out how it's worth it, especially considering as far as I can tell by RAW the answer to my next question is no.

We're pretty good with the 3 point cost, for several reasons. It means you can't take two without sacrificing talents, which is important to prevent it from being too much of an irresistable 1 level dip like incanter. The value is actually pretty solid too across the life of the class. You get a bonus talent, two class abilities, and a capstone, which is a solid benefit; taking Dual Wielding as an example, the bonus talent is worth a feat, Perfect Ambidexterity is the equivalent of a strong feat that would probably have prereqs (call it a feat and a half), Rending Strike is the equivalent of Two-Weapon Rend and a critical feat, and Eviscerate is a strong class feature worth about two feats. Plus the effective BAB/HD bump is equivalent to about a trait, so the cost to value is really close to what we want to see and making them any cheaper would make the classes early levels much too powerful.



For the "Conscript level+1=BAB for your specialised sphere" ability, does that stack with BAB you get from other classes? I understand that you are trying to not replicate the dipping heaven that is the Incanter, but it's definitely a bum deal if it doesn't stack.

It does not. The bonus is something we intended to help encourage treating the conscript as a class instead of a ready source of cheap feats/talents that you graft onto another class (like the Incanter). It can help soften the transition into a non-full BAB class but it's not really meant to help shift bonuses over to another chassis.



Finally, does the aforementioned "Conscript level+1=BAB" ability include for attack actions associated with a Sphere, eg. a Deadly Shot?

Yes. It applies to any abilities granted by the sphere, including special attack actions.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

[Mithril Leaf]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

I do believe that natural weapon attacks count as weapon attacks, but don't quote me as a rules source for that.

[stack]

I see Redirecting Shield get broken up into two separate feats, a regular one for plain attacks, with a legendary talent for reflecting spells/rays and such. How come Redirecting Shield is only limited to weapon attacks though? I don't see much difference between a greatclub or mace coming down and redirecting it compared to just being smashed by a limb (a slam attack), yet the latter as a natural attack is not a valid target for the talent, and I don't understand why.

Errata is making it work with natural attacks.

[EldritchWeaver]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?

[khadgar567]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?
funny thing is you don't need haramaki if you are using protection sphere and if unarmored training stacks then we have first buck naked dex combatant in pathfinder history.

[Galacktic]

funny thing is you don't need haramaki if you are using protection sphere and if unarmored training stacks then we have first buck naked dex combatant in pathfinder history.

What protection sphere? Do you mean Guardian? And if so, what talent?

[EldritchWeaver]

What protection sphere? Do you mean Guardian? And if so, what talent?

I think he means SoP's Protection sphere with Armored Magic talent. Bad news though. That talent won't stack when using the armor bonus option. It is a bit of a problem, considering the Living Weapon archetype would really work with Unarmored Training well otherwise.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I do believe that natural weapon attacks count as weapon attacks, but don't quote me as a rules source for that.
It currently specifically calls out natural weapon attacks as not being able to be redirected. However...

Errata is making it work with natural attacks.
Thank you! This is great to know.

[Ssalarn]

Is there a way for a character using Unarmored Training to benefit from Magic Armor? You can't after all use real armor and bracers of armor don't stack with Unarmored Training. Actually, more general, can you get armor enchantments on yourself? Would be using a haramaki be ok or does this count already as wearing armor?

A haramaki would still count as armor. We'll be adding the following options to the final version of the book before it goes to print to open things up a bit:

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.


New martial tradition:
Tattooed Warrior
Bonus Talents: Equipment: Unarmed Training, Unarmored Training
Bonus Feats: Dragon’s Tattoos, Zodiac Tattoos
Special: Characters with the Tattooed Warrior tradition gain 1 bonus skill point that must be spent on Craft (tattoos) each time they gain a level in any class.


We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions.

Unarmored Training is a very strong option currently but we've heard the requests to open up armor special abilities to our unarmored combatants and we think that this will be the best and most balanced way to accommodate that. The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences.

It also came up in the Drop Dead Studios forums, but we'll also be removing the limitation preventing unarmored training from being usable with shields. This should leave tons of room for customization without making unarmored combat the hands down best choice for defense.

[AlienFromBeyond]

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.
Could this get "or similar ability" to AC Bonus class feature so it will also work with, say, Prescient Dodger? There are many class features that act in a manner similar to Monk's AC Bonus without being the same name. Unarmored Training itself uses that wording anyways for what it doesn't stack with, so there's precedent for it within SoM.

Otherwise, looks good to me! How come it lets you get +6 of armor special abilities instead of +5 though? Just a typo or intentional?

[digiman619]

How come it lets you get +6 of armor special abilities instead of +5 though? Just a typo or intentional?
Because you need at least one +1 before you can apply special qualities to weapons and armor.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Because you need at least one +1 before you can apply special qualities to weapons and armor.
It already makes your count as having +1, you go straight to special abilities with the feat.

[digiman619]

It already makes your count as having +1, you go straight to special abilities with the feat.

Yeah, but the base +1 is still there, so if you want +5 worth of abilities you will have a total of +6.

[Mehangel]

Perhaps it would be better if it were reworded to:

Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature (or similar ability).
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. Zodiac Etchings cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +6. You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.

[EldritchWeaver]

A haramaki would still count as armor. We'll be adding the following options to the final version of the book before it goes to print to open things up a bit:

New feat:
Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. You cannot have a total bonus of armor special abilities higher than +6 . You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.


New martial tradition:
Tattooed Warrior
Bonus Talents: Equipment: Unarmed Training, Unarmored Training
Bonus Feats: Dragon’s Tattoos, Zodiac Tattoos
Special: Characters with the Tattooed Warrior tradition gain 1 bonus skill point that must be spent on Craft (tattoos) each time they gain a level in any class.


We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions.

Unarmored Training is a very strong option currently but we've heard the requests to open up armor special abilities to our unarmored combatants and we think that this will be the best and most balanced way to accommodate that. The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences.

It also came up in the Drop Dead Studios forums, but we'll also be removing the limitation preventing unarmored training from being usable with shields. This should leave tons of room for customization without making unarmored combat the hands down best choice for defense.


Perhaps it would be better if it were reworded to:


Zodiac Etchings
Mystical tattoos ward you from harm and transform your skin into protective armor.
Prerequisites: Craft (tattoos) 5 ranks, Unarmored Training talent or AC Bonus class feature (or similar ability).
Benefit: Covering your body in these intricate tattoos etched by your own hand, you gain the ability to have your skin enchanted with armor special abilities as though it was a suit of +1 leather armor. Zodiac Etchings cannot have an effective bonus (enhancement plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +6. You cannot use this ability to add any armor special abilities to yourself that add a flat gp amount to their cost instead of a bonus equivalent.


Fixed that for you. ;)

Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?

[digiman619]

Fixed that for you. ;)

Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?
It has IUS because it was originally from their Luchador class.

[EldritchWeaver]

It has IUS because it was originally from their Luchador class.

I meant, how Tattooed Warrior does fulfill that prereq, but interesting to know.

Consulting my oracle revealed, that a good chunk of weapon and armor abilities are flat gp costs, as well there are some, which depend on the enhancement bonus (like Staunching). Are there plans to grant those with another feat or do you say that opens a can of worms?

[GreatGoatEater]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?

[EldritchWeaver]

It just occurred to me, would/should Dragon's Tattoos affect natural weapons as well? Unarmed Training is going to affect natural weapons as well after all.

[Mehangel]

Consulting my oracle revealed, that a good chunk of weapon and armor abilities are flat gp costs, as well there are some, which depend on the enhancement bonus (like Staunching). Are there plans to grant those with another feat or do you say that opens a can of worms?

Actually weapons are fairly well set when it comes to allowed weapon specials. Armor on the other hand are hurting in that department. On the PFSRD, there are almost no +2 or +4 armor specials that aren't flat gp costs.

[AlienFromBeyond]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?
I think RAW you actually get stuck with the default of Wisdom, which is unfortunate. This seems like an oversight in the spellcasting for SoM progression exchange rules, they should probably say that your practitioner modifier for the class is whatever stat you used for was. Otherwise Paladin is pretty darn sad about the deal.

[Quarian Rex]

Some thoughts on the Technician and the Invention system. Great job overall. I have seen many attempts to do tech type things in this game but most just come off as variant spellcasting but worse. You avoided this by relying on meaningful sidegrades that feel more like extensions of masterwork crafting (I mean this in a good way) and I quite appreciate that. Balancing the utility with difficulty to use with the scaling penalties for multiple Improvements works amazingly, limiting the proliferation of power without handwaving incongruent limitations. Again, great job.

There are some things that I have noticed and concerns/possible missed opportunities that I want to look at though. First would be the Autonomous Creations. I love this thing. Being able to create independent inventions apart from your class features is every kind of goodness that an aspiring pioneer of a future technological revolution could want. Cost seems to be on point even. Now you can make robot bodyguards, steam powered, AI driven taxi-cabs, and clockwork, self-targeting siege engines. What could be wrong? Nothing, other than the fact that this cannot be done unless you grant the invention autonomy. I see that as a bit of a problem. Being able to make the most advantageous version of an invention (one with its own set of actions and crafted HD) but nothing less is a gross oversight. Then there is the fact that a Technician can make fully autonomous constructs for others without losing access to one of his precious prototypes but he can't outfit a good sized party with Self-Supporting backpacks or Improved Mobility armor.

My suggestion would be to expand the utility found in Autonomous Creations to the other crafting Technical Insights. Keep Autonomous Creations essentially the same, just make the autonomy aspect a separate Improvement (that needs to be paid for separately) that is unlocked by this insight, so that autonomy has an opportunity cost instead of being the default. Have Craftsman’s Insight grant the ability to create permanent Inventions from Grand Gadget, Improved Backpack, Improved Boots, Improved Gloves, and Improved Goggles, all costing 500 gp x (the number of improvements they possess) plus the cost of the item being augmented. Forger’s Insight would allow permanent augmentations from Improved Armor, Improved Crossbow, Improved Firearm, Improved Melee Weapon, Improved Shield, and Improved Suit at the same cost. Greater Craftsman can be kept as is since it unlocks all the other crafted constructs in the game and I think that it provides some great lateral choices for the player.

None of these really need any kind of limitations on the number of inventions added due to the penalties for non-Technicians. The only addition needed would be to say that a Technician suffers non-Technician penalties for any Improvements past his class Improvement limit (plus 1 for every selection of Inventor’s Insight he has selected, keeping it relevant even after he can make the items permanently). This way a Technician can make an item so over-engineered that even he cannot use it. The fact that the Improvements are balanced pretty damn well and don't stack ridiculously lead to a lot of interesting options.

For Craftsman’s Insight, Forger’s Insight, and Greater Craftsman I would appreciate stating in the text whether magic items/constructs made with these abilities are technological (aka [Ex] effects) or are still considered to be magical. There is precedent for this in the Technology Guide, and I think this would be thematically appropriate, but it needs to be spelled out.

The Unethical Science Inventions from the Mad Scientist (great archetype btw) should really be amended to add, "Each time it is selected, the wielder may use the invention an additional 3 (or 6 for Portal Gun) times, or may create a separate version that can be used 3 times.", similar to what is included under Grand Gadget.

Adding, "The integrated item can be improved as a separate Invention.", to Weaponized Gadget (from Grand Gadgets), Integrated Shield (from Improved Crossbow and Improved Melee Weapon), Integrated Weapon (from Improved Crossbow), and Integrated Gun (from Improved Melee Weapon and Improved Shield) would be bloody awesome as well. Letting a Technician rock an over/under barrel option for his favorite Inventions instead of having them all strapped to his back like a pleb (at the cost of an Improvement of course) would be all the good.

Adding a note to Unethical Science that these options (other than Reanimation) can be added to other inventions through the Integrated Gun and Integrated Weapon improvements as if they were an appropriately sized weapon would be appreciated for the same reason.

I missed most of the playtest but have become a big fan since the release. Hearing that you will be doing an update before print lead to me hoping that the above might be addressed and slid in.

[Ssalarn]

If I exchange spell-casting for Spheres of Might Progression, do I use my spellcasting stat as my Practitioner Modifier or do I just default to Wisdom? For example, if I convert an Occultis, do I get to use Intelligence?


I think RAW you actually get stuck with the default of Wisdom, which is unfortunate. This seems like an oversight in the spellcasting for SoM progression exchange rules, they should probably say that your practitioner modifier for the class is whatever stat you used for was. Otherwise Paladin is pretty darn sad about the deal.


I've put a note in our errata to add the following sentence to the end of the "Combat Training For Non-Spheres of Might Classes" section-
"Characters who trade their spellcasting for a combat talent progression use whatever ability score affected their spellcasting as their practitioner modifier (for example, a paladin who trades their spellcasting for a Proficient combat talent progression would use Charisma as their practitioner modifier)."



Nice, but where does the prerequisite for Dragon's Tattoos, namely Improved Unarmed Strike, come from? Also, do you benefit from the Craft (tattoo) after gaining 6 ranks or more? Can you use those feats before level 5? Who does that enchanting and does it take as long as crafting armor/weapons?

As I mentioned in the same post where I included the new feat and martial tradition-
"We've also added some text to incorporate feats into martial traditions. [...] The martial tradition will allow you to jump straight in to having the full spread of enhancement options or you can snag the feat(s) individually depending on your build preferences."
We have updated the martial tradition text to state that you do not need to meet the prerequisites of a feat or talent granted by a martial tradition to gain its benefits.
Any character capable of enchanting arms or armor can apply the enchantments to your tattoos, and adding the enhancements takes the same amount of time as enhancing a weapon or suit of armor.

[EldritchWeaver]

Any character capable of enchanting arms or armor can apply the enchantments to your tattoos, and adding the enhancements takes the same amount of time as enhancing a weapon or suit of armor.

I can't help but thinking that this is somewhat unfortunate. I mean, if you order a new sword, you aren't forced to watch the guy working on it. But I can understand why you wouldn't want to remove the time limits. Maybe if the preparation can be done without having to stay several days at the wizard's place?

Also, is there any reason why you need to limit Zodiac Etchings entchantment-wise as it is? I think you are already paying a feat for circumventing a limitation, which includes the natural tradeoff that you can't change your armor just because you found the cool loot (which means that you always pay effectively double for your personal enchantments, too). All in all, using that feat is more resource intensive already compared to getting armor outfitted, so no other limits seem necessary.

[kkplx]

Is it possible to combine the Equipment Sphere Talent "Duelist’s Grip" with the conscript's Finesse Training to apply 1 1/2 your dexterity bonus to attacks that qualify for duelist's grip?

If yes, does this also mean that if you wield your finesse training weapon in 2 hands, can you add 1 1/2 times your dex modifier to damage?

[Mehangel]

Is it possible to combine the Equipment Sphere Talent "Duelist’s Grip" with the conscript's Finesse Training to apply 1 1/2 your dexterity bonus to attacks that qualify for duelist's grip?

If yes, does this also mean that if you wield your finesse training weapon in 2 hands, can you add 1 1/2 times your dex modifier to damage?

While I am not a Dev, I would as a GM rule in favor of allowing the combination of the Duelist's Grip talent with the Conscript's Finesse Training ability, thus allowing you to apply 1 1/2 your Dex mod to attacks that qualify.

I probably would also allow you to add 1 1/2 times your Dex mod to damage with your finesse training weapons wielded in 2 hands (such as Elven Curve Blades), just as long as the weapon in question doesn't include lines like the rapier which state:


Drawback: You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.

In any case, I am supposing the answer to your second question might have to wait till Paizo releases a FAQ (if they have not already) about how it works with the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training and Elven Curve Blades.

[kkplx]

I'd like to pose a scenario that should be possible, to see if I'm getting it right:

You need, at level 1:
Barrage Sphere
Trap Sphere with 2 Drawbacks (must immediately trigger, and only use darts, to get trap wielder and opportunist) and 2 talents (Trapper's recovery, Rapid Placement)
This can be achieved with the mechanic archetype and two talents spent


You gain: 4 attacks in one round, as long as your trap hits, repeatable each round.

start round
- Expend your focus with Rapid Placement to place your dart trap and trigger it immediately, as a move action
- As the opponent is hit, you take an attack of opportunity, and regain your focus as an immediate action
- You then Barrage, attacking twice
end round

If you want a failsafe for the focus, simply take Blitz focus later to get a second chance to recover, when you barrage, in case your trap misses

Did I get this correctly?

[edited to add the needed Rapid Placement, thanks Sam C.]

[EldritchWeaver]

If this depends on restoring focus several times per round: You can't restore focus more than once per round. Never. Explicitly ruled out.

[Mehangel]

On the subject of Champions of the Spheres, can you tell us of any changes to the Sage class? Mostly I am curious about the following:
- Has the Sage class been modified so to be given the 'Casting' class feature, so that it could
A) Gain a Casting Tradition (perhaps granting bonus ki points instead of spell points during levels where such would be gained)
B) Resolve issues with Sage characters who multiclass into other spherecasting classes.
C) Resolve issues for meeting spherecasting feat prerequisites? (including feats such as: Cantrips (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc8), Circle Casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc13), Contingency (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc15), Counterspell (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/counterspell-feats), Create Spellbook (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc17), Ritual Caster (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc44), Spellcrafting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc54), etc)
- Any chance of the Sage also getting the Blended Training class feature (like the Prodigy)
- How many archetypes are currently being worked on for the Sage class (if any), and what do they do?

Bumping this to get an answer.

[Zsaber0]

Do the martial traditions such as Knightly Arts, or any of them really, which grants access to the Equipment Sphere as well as several Equipment Talents take into account the Free extra Equipment Talent buying into the equipment Sphere grants?

[Mehangel]

Do the martial traditions such as Knightly Arts, or any of them really, which grants access to the Equipment Sphere as well as several Equipment Talents take into account the Free extra Equipment Talent buying into the equipment Sphere grants?

As far as I can tell none of the martial traditions actually give the Equipment sphere, only talents from that sphere.

[kkplx]

If this depends on restoring focus several times per round: You can't restore focus more than once per round. Never. Explicitly ruled out.

You restore it once per round - I don't see what you're referring to.

The thing you use focus on is placing the trap as a move action.

Did you falsely read this as executing this chain more than once a round?


You gain: 4 attacks in one round, as long as your trap hits, repeatable each round.

In case that's the issue, I added the "start round" and "end round" notes in my example.

[Ssalarn]

Do the martial traditions such as Knightly Arts, or any of them really, which grants access to the Equipment Sphere as well as several Equipment Talents take into account the Free extra Equipment Talent buying into the equipment Sphere grants?

Since the Equipment sphere's base ability is "Choose an equipment talent", the martial traditions all mandate what that talent is going to be. When a martial talent says "Equipment: Armor Training, Bushido Training", this is essentially shorthand for "Equipment sphere (must take Armor Training), Bushido Training". We had that specifically spelled out at one point, but I'm assuming that it got cut because someone felt it was unnecessary? Or it disappeared during one of the many reworks the Equipment sphere underwent and just never got added back in when we went back to the Equipment sphere's base ability just being that you get any one talent from the sphere. I'll double-check with the team.

[kkplx]

Since the Equipment sphere's base ability is "Choose an equipment talent", the martial traditions all mandate what that talent is going to be. When a martial talent says "Equipment: Armor Training, Bushido Training", this is essentially shorthand for "Equipment sphere (must take Armor Training), Bushido Training". We had that specifically spelled out at one point, but I'm assuming that it got cut because someone felt it was unnecessary? Or it disappeared during one of the many reworks the Equipment sphere underwent and just never got added back in when we went back to the Equipment sphere's base ability just being that you get any one talent from the sphere. I'll double-check with the team.

I ran into the same question when going over the pdf with a friend today - you really might want to make that more explicit.

[kkplx]

A monster with human-like intelligence has BAB 16 and picks up a level in any one of the classes in spheres of might. This creature then picks up the berserker sphere and takes the bone-breaker exertion.
Does its brutal strike now apply a -1 to attack and damage rolls, or -5?

[Sam C.]

I'd like to pose a scenario that should be possible, to see if I'm getting it right:

You need, at level 1:
Barrage Sphere
Trap Sphere with 2 Drawbacks (must immediately trigger, and only use darts, to get trap wielder and opportunist) and 1 talent (Trapper's recovery)
This can be achieved with the mechanic archetype and a single talent


You gain: 4 attacks in one round, as long as your trap hits, repeatable each round.

start round
- Expend your focus to place your dart trap and trigger it immediately, as a move action
- As the opponent is hit, you take an attack of opportunity, and regain your focus as an immediate action
- You then Barrage, attacking twice
end round

If you want a failsafe for the focus, simply take Blitz focus later to get a second chance to recover, when you barrage, in case your trap misses

Did I get this correctly?

You also need the Rapid Placement talent, but yes, this seems accurate by RAW.


A monster with human-like intelligence has BAB 16 and picks up a level in any one of the classes in spheres of might. This creature then picks up the berserker sphere and takes the bone-breaker exertion.
Does its brutal strike now apply a -1 to attack and damage rolls, or -5?

-5. There is no "practitioner level" in SoM. The effects of combat talents are all determined by BAB or HD, making it easy for any character (or monster) to buy into the system via Extra Combat Talent.

[Ssalarn]

A monster with human-like intelligence has BAB 16 and picks up a level in any one of the classes in spheres of might. This creature then picks up the berserker sphere and takes the bone-breaker exertion.
Does its brutal strike now apply a -1 to attack and damage rolls, or -5?


-5. Your BAB based abilities don't distinguish between your sources of BAB, just how many points of BAB you actually have.

[Aipaca]

Just wondering if this is an intentional interaction?

Conscript Specialisations - Sniper Sphere Specialisation - Precision Shots lets you use a move action to steady your weapon, but in order to use your Deadly Shot Sniper Sphere ability you (probably) need to use your move action each turn to reload your weapon to regain martial focus? So you'll only be using Precision Shots on the first round of combat or on a round in which you are not going to be able to use Deadly Shot?

Thanks :smallsmile:

[Wartex1]

I noticed something about the Gladiator Talent Spectacle.

While not exactly the same, it is remarkably similar to the Gory Finish feat but that's not listed as an Associated Feat for the talent.

EDIT: Stupid Autocorrect

Got Finish?

[digiman619]

I've made a character for a SoP/SoM game and one of the other players argues that while the unarmed spheres let him do more damage w/unarmed strikes and counts as IUS for prerequisites, it doesn't let him use US for AoO's or use them without provoking. I don't think it's supposed to work like that, so I'd like official clarification.

[Ssalarn]

I've made a character for a SoP/SoM game and one of the other players argues that while the unarmed spheres let him do more damage w/unarmed strikes and counts as IUS for prerequisites, it doesn't let him use US for AoO's or use them without provoking. I don't think it's supposed to work like that, so I'd like official clarification.

You can make AoOs and not provoke while using unarmed strikes with an SoM character. For some reason we lost a line of text during layout that specifically let you count as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, but that is getting added back in for the update.

[Lirya]

I ran a mega-encounter in my spheres campaign today.

The PCs (8th level) are currently travelling through an evil empire (they want to investigate something on the other side of the continent, and the empire has the best roads) and have heard a lot of rumors of how Drow are currently harassing the empire so much that they have issued a curfew and martial law in their cities. Staying at an inn in a major city for the night, they keep watch and notice a massive uproar and buildings going up in flames not far away. Being a fairly good aligned and heroic group they go to the rescue.

It is a new moon, so visibility is kind of bad. But one PC has a sword that lights up a 20-foot radius while another has a tattoo on his hand that creates a cone of light, and most of them have darkvision. The barbarian is running on the rooftops while carrying the gnome bard, the elementalist is flying, while the heavy armor incanter and the dwarf striker follow the streets. The encounter starts with the PCs noticing 4 Ogre Spiders clinging to the walls at the side of a street. While easily killing the spiders, they hear screams and explosions from inside the buildings at both sides of the street. The barbarian runs inside the house on his side of the street and find two humans who are bleeding out as well as a Minotaur and a goblin in the staircase. Meanwhile a 2nd Minotaur and a 2nd goblin attacks the party from the house on the opposite side of
the street.

One of the Goblins, trained in the alchemy sphere, throws an improved alchemist fire that puts both the barbarian and his Minotaur friend on fire while the Minotaur takes a nasty wound from the barbarian. The Incanter enters the house, puts out the fire, takes a bottled lightning to the face, and leaves the house. Then the Minotaur shoves the barbarian into the wall before bull rushing him through it twice (swift action bull rush). The bard jumps in through a window and heals the barbarian + humans who are bleeding out. Meanwhile out in the street, the striker grapples his Minotaur and throws him into the ground so well the Minotaur gets stuck.

At this point, two Orcs and a Flesh Golem round the corner and try to attack, only the Orcs all get disintegrated by the elementalist. The Flesh Golem proceeds to go berserk and starts murdering the Minotaur who is entangled by the street. After another round or so of cleanup, they hear lots of screams and see a massive shadow as a Giant Tarantula is charging down the street towards them. What they don't see is the invisible Drider who managed to sneak up behind them.

Unleashing a fully augmented Chain Shock blast, the invisible Drider hopes to catch the party by surprise but loses its natural 20 against the striker to a forced reroll from the bard and then completely misses due to a rebuff from the elementalist. Since the Drider is still invisible the barbarian charges the foe he can see (Giant Tarantula), avoid the attack of opportunity and deals massive damage plus some bleed. The bleed reduces the Tarantula to 0 hp, causing it to start dying after biting the barbarian (and denying the barbarian a recharge of his martial focus). The elementalist seeks cover inside a building while drinking a potion of invisibility (they exist in my game), and the bard follows the example by drinking his own. Realizing she is in a bad position, the Drider uses guided strike with an electric blast before starting to withdraw.

To the rest of the players great annoyance, the barbarian drinks his potion of see invisibility and pursues the Drider straight into the Drow ambush. Magical darkness is triggered by the drider arriving at tonight's Drow hideout. As a proper barbarian, he spell sunders the darkness but only manages to suppress it for 2 rounds, so before he knows it he is under fire from a Drow Sniper and an apprentice Drow Storm Priestess while a Drow Mageknight teleports up behind him to flank with the Drider. Seeing their barbarian is in a bit of a bind, the party rushes to his aid with all they got, and through lots of lucky rolls on his miss chance and with his Defensive Slice the barbarian somehow survives the drow ambush. It all ends with the striker catching the apprentice Storm Priestess off guard while the elementalist managed to knock the sniper into the waiting barbarian greatsword.

[Galacktic]

Question regarding the Punishment Legendary talent:



When you deal damage to a creature while you have dam-
age in your delayed damage pool, you may spend an immediate
action to expend your martial focus and deal damage equal to
your delayed damage pool to the target creature. If you possess
the Cold Iron Call or Durable talents, you may also inflict any
effects you are postponing with those abilities. If the effect al-
lowed a save, the target may make a save immediately at the
original DC.

A successful Fortitude save reduces the amount of damage
transferred by half and negates the transfer of any effects.


Does this mean that all the damage in their pool is transferred to the enemy, or they just deal extra damage equal to their pool? The paragraph implies the latter, the second sentence implies the former.

[AlienFromBeyond]

The Black Powder Brawler archetype for the Striker replaces Punishing Pummler, but then says it modifies it in a later section. Kind of confusing, and makes me wonder if maybe Leading Blow is supposed to be replacing something else.

[stack]

Question regarding the Punishment Legendary talent:



Does this mean that all the damage in their pool is transferred to the enemy, or they just deal extra damage equal to their pool? The paragraph implies the latter, the second sentence implies the former.

Originally it was transferred, but was changed to just additional damage + copying effects (if you have the additional talents).

[Wartex1]

I noticed something about the Black Powder Striker as well. Its ability seems to resemble the Gun Kata talent, but it costs resources to use and doesn't seem that much better until it gives further additional attacks. Why not adjust it so that the archetype gets Gun Kata for free but also gets an ability that modifies the talent, allowing for additional attacks with the talent instead of making a separate ability for it?

[digiman619]

Since the Street Fighter archetype only replaces the bonus feats, unarmed strike and flurry of blows class features, shouldn't it also be an archetype for the Unchained Monk? Because last I checked, UnMonks can't take Monk archetypes according to RAW.

And while I'm at it, here's a list of compatible SoP/SoM archetypes just to tide us over until Champions of the Spheres is out:

Worldsoul Incarnate + Berserker
Sphere Bloodrager + Stormlord (Though it does reduce it to moderate BAB (+15 at 20th))
War Hero + Coiled Blade Never mind I messed up.
Glass Eye Gunmage + Gunfighter
Sphere Paladin + Dirt Spattered Angel (If there was a Sphere Antipaladin archetype, it would stack with Blood-Soaked Demon)

[EldritchWeaver]

Since the Street Fighter archetype only replaces the bonus feats, unarmed strike and flurry of blows class features, shouldn't it also be an archetype for the Unchained Monk? Because last I checked, UnMonks can't take Monk archetypes according to RAW.

I thought you can take an monk archetype in theory, but most are simply incompatible.

[digiman619]

I thought you can take an monk archetype in theory, but most are simply incompatible.
Page 8 of Pahtfinder Unchained specifically calls out Unmonk not getting Monk archetypes.

Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class features to replace

That's been enough for the general consensus to conclude that UnMonks can't take Monk archetypes without the explicit say so of the GM. Besides, there's presadent in the Worldsoul Incarnate being for both chained and unchained Barbarians, as well as the Warrior of Blind Faith archetype being for both Paladins and Antipaladins.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

With both SoP and SoM using the term “Talent” to describe their core option, was there ever discussion of better integrating the existing talent system so prevalent in Pathfinder classes? Rogue Talents simply being magic or might talents exclusive to Rogues, etc?

[stack]

With both SoP and SoM using the term “Talent” to describe their core option, was there ever discussion of better integrating the existing talent system so prevalent in Pathfinder classes? Rogue Talents simply being magic or might talents exclusive to Rogues, etc?

That class menu options sometimes share the name "talent' wasn't really considered to be an issue nor something to base further design off of. Not really sure what the benefit would be unless you rewrote the entire rogue talent list, and if you did that, class-locking it would be contrary to sphere-system design goals.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

That class menu options sometimes share the name "talent' wasn't really considered to be an issue nor something to base further design off of. Not really sure what the benefit would be unless you rewrote the entire rogue talent list, and if you did that, class-locking it would be contrary to sphere-system design goals.

Why would it require rewriting the talent list rather than simply adding the existing talents as Rogue-exclusive additional options?

[Ssalarn]

Why would it require rewriting the talent list rather than simply adding the existing talents as Rogue-exclusive additional options?

For one, there's no such thing as a rogue exclusive talent. Rogue talents, traditionally very weak, have dozens of back doors that other classes can use to access them. The sphere talents all also sit within a rules framework; you'd need to reiterate that framework in the new talents to clarify how they all work when acquired in that manner, including caster levels, DCs, spell pool progression, etc. That's a significant amount of work when the Rogue already has several avenues to acquiring combat and spell talents, from archetypes to simply acquiring the relevant feats (many of which can already be taken through rogue talents that grant feats, like Combat Trick). So you've got a fairly sketchy benefit that requires more than a moment's work, opens up a lot of possibilities that we can't really predict easily, and doesn't even necessarily carry a ton of value at the end of the day.

On the wider scale, not all things called "talents" are equal. Rogue talents are pretty weak on average, but Investigator, Slayer, and Vigilante talents are very strong. There's not really a consolidated baseline of what something called a "talent" is worth, because the power of a talent varies greatly depending on the class it was designed for (and when it was written). When all of the classes already have ways to buy into the system with archetypes, feat acquisition talents, etc. there's just not a lot of point to trying to tie the various types of talents together.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Fair enough I suppose. Just seemed like having the option would be better than explaining to every new player why there are three things all called a Talent.

[Aipaca]

Does the Shield Sphere: Forced Reboud (Deflect) talent allow the enemy to take an AoO?

[AlienFromBeyond]

And while I'm at it, here's a list of compatible SoP/SoM archetypes just to tide us over until Champions of the Spheres is out:

War Hero + Coiled Blade
Uh, no they aren't. They give up the same feats, I even made a post about this.

[Ssalarn]

Fair enough I suppose. Just seemed like having the option would be better than explaining to every new player why there are three things all called a Talent.

That ship sailed with the Rogue, Investigator, Slayer, and Vigilante (which actually has two different types of talents), the Magic Talent trait, advanced talents for the aforementioned classes, the Arcane Talent feat, the Dual Talent human racial trait, etc. You've got to wade through a dozen different types of talents before you even get out of Paizo's core product line, and if anything, conflating those talents even further by trying to stitch some of them together with others is going to muddy the waters even further rather than bring any clarity.

[digiman619]

Uh, no they aren't. They give up the same feats, I even made a post about this.

My mistake, I edited my previous post.

EDIT: And becasue I had nothing to do today, here's My (hopefully not too much in error) list of archetypes that stack with the SoM coversion archetypes. Paizo archetypes will be in standard text, non-Paizo archetypes from d20pfsrd.com are in italics, and archetypes from spheresofpower.wikidot.com are in bold, and will have what subsystem they are from in parentheses. Note that the Beastmaster and Wandering Samurai archetypes (Hunter and Samurai, respectively) do not stack with anything; either they replaced too many things for any existing archetype to cover the remaining gaps, or had little to no archetype support. Also, the Street Fighter is, as written a chained Monk archertpe, not an Unchained one. There are no Unchained Monk archetypes that stack with an UnMonk Street Fighter. Ones that I clained were compatible that I messed up on and actually aren't are marked with a strikethrough Like this.

Blood-Soaked Demon (Antipaladin)
Variant Channeling, Thematic Channeling, Warrior of the Unholy Darkness, Warrior of Blind Faith (Spheres of Might)

Warrior of Blind Faith (Antipaladin)
Knight of the Sepulcher, Variant Channeling, Lord of Darkness, Thematic Channeling, Templar of Spirits, Blood-Soaked Demon (Spheres of Might),Shadow Templar (Pact Magic)

Blood-Soaked Demon + Warrior of Blind Faith (Antipaladin)
Variant Channeling, Thematic Channeling

Berserker (Barbarian)
Breaker, Brutal Pugilist, Dreadnought, Drunken Brute, Drunken Rager, Elemental Kin, Fearsome Defender, Germinate Invoker, Hurler, Invulnerable Rager, Jungle Rager, Liberator,Mooncursed, Mounted Fury, Primal Hunter, Savage Barbarian, Scarred Rager, Sea Reaver, Titan Mauler, Totem Warrior, Untamed Rager, Wild Rager, Hateful Rager (Half-Orc only), Serene Barbarian, Bedlam Seeker, Savage Technician, Jotunkin, Worldsoul Incarnate (Spheres of Power), Folken (Gonzo), Totem Pactmaster (Heroes of the Jade Oath), Totemic Sage (Pact Magic)

Stormlord (Bloodrager)
Bloodrider,Greenrager, Metamagic Rager, Rageshaper. Primalist, Spelleater, Untouchable Rager, Sphere Bloodrager (Spheres of Power), Bloodravager (Pact Magic), Bloodsworn Binder (Pact Magic)

Brutal Pummeler (Brawler)
Shield Champion, Snakebite Striker, Steel-Breaker, Occult Bruiser (Pact Magic)

Blooded Knight (Cavalier)
Tenguhatamoto (Tengu only), Pactsworn Knight (Pact Magic)

Coiled Blade (Fighter)
Armor Master, Blackjack, Drill Sargent, Martial Master, Opportunist Fighter, Savage Warrior, Cavern Sniper (Drow only), Blade shifter, Dragon Warrior, Pacifist (Gonzo),

Gunfighter (Gunslinger)
Bolt Ace, Gunner Squire, Mysterious Stranger, Techslinger, Experimental Gunsmith (Gnome only), Glass Eye Gunmage (Spheres of Power)

Beastmaster (Hunter)
Nothing.

Battered Detective (Investigator)
Dread Investigator, Empiricist, Infiltrator, Mastermind, Relentless Inspector, Steel Hound, Monster Chronicler,

Runic Knight (Magus)
Beastblade, Bladebound, Hexcrafter, Magic Warrior, Myrmidarch, Spell Trapper, Elemental Knight (Suli only), Fiend Flayer (Tiefling only), Singer of Blades, Arcana Lord

Street Fighter (Monk)
Black Asp, Disciple of Wholeness, Drunken Master, Hamatulatsu Master, Harrow Warden, Hungry Ghost Monk, Karmic Monk, Kata Master, Ki Mystic, Martial Artist, Monk of the Four Winds, Monk of the Healing Hand, Monk of the Iron Mountain, Monk of the Lotus, Monk of the Seven Winds, Perfect Scholar, Quiggong Monk, Scarred Monk, Spirit Master, Terra-Cotta Monk, Weapon Adept, Wildcat, Windstep Master, Contemplative (Dwarf only), Nimble Guardian (Catfolk Only), Treetop Monk (Vanara only), Wall Climbing, Hand of Tyranny, Contemplative Monk (Heroes of the Jade Oath), Sadhu (Heroes of the Jade Oath),

Shinobi (Ninja)
Viscous Opportunist

Dirt Spattered Angel (Paladin)
Combat Healer Squire, Divine Defender, Divine Guardian, Empyreal Knight, Holy Guide, Legate, Mind Sword, Oathbound Paladin (Oath Against Fiends, ...Grotesquery, ...Savagery, ...the Way, ...the Wyrm, Oath of Charity, ...Chastity, ...the Crusade,), Tempered Champion, Warrior of the Holy Light, Variant Channeling, Divine Calling, Righteous Flame Acolyte, Chevalier, Dragon Knight, Thematic Channeling, Sphere Paladin (Spheres of Power), Warrior of Blind Faith (Spheres of Might)

Warrior of Blind Faith (Paladin)
Chosen one, Combat Squire Healer, Divine Defender, Divine Hunter, Dusk Knight, Empyreal Knight, Enforcer, Enlightened Paladin, Ghost Hunter, Grey Paladin, Holy Guide, Holy Gun, Holy Tactician, Hospitaler, Legate, Martyr, Sacred Shield, Scion of Peace, Shining Knight, Soul Sentinel, Sword of Valor, Undead Scourge, Warrior of the Holy Light, Variant Channeling, Redeemer (Half-Orc only), Tranquil Guardian (Aasimar only), Divine Calling, Shadow Banisher, Dashing Hero, Horned Warden, Righteous Flame Acolyte, Dragon Knight, Thematic Channeling, Purifier, Comrade (Gonzo), Shadow Templar (Pact Magic)

Ditt Spattered Angel +Warrior of Blind Faith (Paladin)
Combat Healer Squire, Divine Defender, Empyreal Knight, Holy Guide, Legate.

Nature’s Blade (Ranger)
Battle Scout, Dungeon Rover, Galvanic Saboteur, Infiltrator, Shapeshifter, Toxophile, Transporter, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Mystic, Bow Nomad (Kasatha only), Wave Warden (Merfolk only), Orisons, Musketeer Combat Style, Firearms Combat Style, Polarm…, Quarterstaff…, Spear…, Unarmed…, Pack-Bonded Hunter (Gnoll only)

Canny Scoundrel (Rogue)
Bandit, Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout,ScrollScoundrel,Trapsmith, Cat Burglar (Catfolk only), Deadly Courtesan (Vishkanya only). Eldritch Raider (Gillman Only, Flicher (Halfling only), Swordmaster (Tengu only), Spell Resistance, Scourge of Shadows, Dungeon Runner, Glory Rogue, Mageslayer, Pet Trainer, Stalker, Street Urchin, Urban Ninja, Untouchable, Dimensional Jaunter, Viscous Opponent, Blacksnake, Cloakfighter, Harrier, Physical Exemplar, Spellhammer, Weapon Champion, Youxia, Fringe Binder (Pact Magic)

Wandering Samurai (Samurai)
Nothing

Guild Assassin (Slayer)
Executioner, Pureblade, Sniper, Headman, Warhound, Lethalities, Pactbane Slayer (Pact Magic)

Dancing Blade (Swashbuckler)
Corsair, Inspired Blade, Ronin

Shadow Warrior (Vigilante)
Faceless Enforcer, Psychometrist, Divine Avenger

[Lucas Yew]

Now that I heard you're adding more stuff before print, I'd really like it if some form of Timeless Body appeared, at least as a legendary talent for Open Hand or the likes...

Timeless Body (Open Hand)
Prereq.: O.H. sphere, 9 other combat spheres and/or talents, HD +15
Benefit: No longer take physical ability score penalty for aging; Physical aging until maximum lifespan slows down to one year per every 3 + HD/3 years.

It felt strange that the most common way to get pseudo immortality in Wuxia stories (read: training) was locked until the Sage showed up, you know (not counting the fact that there are Taoist equivalents for the Elixir of Life, but it eats up your WBL until you learn how to make the Philosopher's Stone).

----

Oh, and can anyone give me advice on how to give a Dex heavy unarmed/unarmored Conscript with Martial Flexibility and Open Hand specialization enough Will save bonuses for 20th level?

[Aipaca]

Gunfighter (Gunslinger)
Bolt Ace, Gunner Squire, Mysterious Stranger, Techslinger, Experimental Gunsmith (Gnome only), Glass Eye Gunmage (Spheres of Power)

[/SIZE][/FONT]


Glass Eye Gunmage doesn't stack, both replace the 8th level bonus feat.

[digiman619]

Glass Eye Gunmage doesn't stack, both replace the 8th level bonus feat.

Noted and fixed.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.

[digiman619]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.
Yeah, the Sphere Magus could use an errata saying that the Medium and Heavy armor class features modify the base class but can still be traded off. I'm 95% sure there's precedent for that.

[Aipaca]

For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?

Edit: Also, for the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?

[Mithril Leaf]

Does this line from Unarmed Practitioners:

Practitioners from a class that already
grants an unarmed damage progression, such as the brawler or
monk, may treat their unarmed strike as one size category larg-
er if they have 3 or more talents in an unarmed combat sphere,
but receive no further benefits.

Count as a virtual size increase, thus preventing it from stacking with any other virtual size increasers?

EDIT: Also what happens when you use Barrage at the same time as Vital Strike? Do all the attacks do Vital Strike Damage?

[Wartex1]

For the option to trade out spellcasting or feats for spheres access, I don't believe it lists how to determine the Practitioner Modifier for those.

For spellcasting, I guess keeping the Spellcasting modifier would be fine, but not sure about what to do when trading feats.

[master4sword]

Also what happens when you use Barrage at the same time as Vital Strike? Do all the attacks do Vital Strike Damage?

To expand on this question, the Dual Wielding sphere has language specifying that only the first attack is an attack action, and the Brawler archetype's pummel and the Monk archetype's flurry say their bonus attacks are a free action (and thus not an attack action), but the Barrage sphere has no such language. The other two sources of bonus attacks triggering off an attack action I can easily find (Open Hand's Spinning Heel Kick and Armiger's rapid assault) seem to imply that the bonus attacks are after the attack action; Barrage is the only place I have found that gives two attacks as an attack action that doesn't have language preventing them both from being attack action attacks, so the clarification would be appreciated!

EDIT: Wartex, it would be Wisdom. "If a character does not possess levels in a class that grants a practitioner modifier, they use their Wisdom modifer as their practitioner modifier."

[stack]

Champions of the Spheres (SoP/SoM crossover book) archetype playtest, (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WmpU0yucT3mf04oXktGJecBQ8Gkt3jaB-s82Y29_7BM/edit#heading=h.h5jw9ad6kr0e) for those interested in such things.

Feedback can be left on the doc, here, or on the DDS boards. Thanks in advance.

[Mithril Leaf]

Champions of the Spheres (SoP/SoM crossover book) archetype playtest, (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WmpU0yucT3mf04oXktGJecBQ8Gkt3jaB-s82Y29_7BM/edit#heading=h.h5jw9ad6kr0e) for those interested in such things.

Feedback can be left on the doc, here, or on the DDS boards. Thanks in advance.

Thank you for posting it here, I've been waiting to see the new Troubadour (although I see I'll still have to wait). I have but one complaint besides my desire to see my favorite class, and that is that the Armorist Archetype is basically either a straight mild buff or a mild nerf, depending on whether or not you can still trade your feats for a good progression if you have it.

[exelsisxax]

I'll just keep waiting for bard archetypes, i guess.

[Wartex1]

I'll just keep waiting for bard archetypes, i guess.

For Skald/Bard stuff so far (no actual play yet, sadly), I've just been using the guidelines for swapping spellcasting for practitioner progression, making Skald/Bard Adept Practitioners (using CHA mod) with no spellcasting. I think it makes for a rather nice and simple conversion, since most of the other abilities still work mechanically and thematically, only exception that really comes to mind is Skald's Spell Kenning.

[kkplx]

Wise Reflexes (Ex): A sentinel can use her Wisdom modifer in place of her Dexterity when determining her initiative and Reflex save bonus, although this bonus cannot exceed her class level

Is it the the total of reflex save or initiative that cannot exceed your sentinel level, or the how much of the wisdom modifier you get to apply to them instead of dexterity?

[EldritchWeaver]

Wise Reflexes (Ex): A sentinel can use her Wisdom modifer in place of her Dexterity when determining her initiative and Reflex save bonus, although this bonus cannot exceed her class level

Is it the the total of reflex save or initiative that cannot exceed your sentinel level, or the how much of the wisdom modifier you get to apply to them instead of dexterity?

The latter. So with a Dex +2 you are better of at level one with your Dex instead of Wis.

[Ssalarn]

Ugh, it's pretty damn stupid that the SoM Magus archetype doesn't even stack with Sphere Magus, despite having text to clarify exactly how the Mystic Orders work with spherecasting. Nice fail there. I really want to play the archetype, but despise PF's vancian casting.

It was literally impossible to combine the two in a balanced and functional fashion due to how the Sphere Magus from SoP:E is set up. You don't actually need an archetype to convert a character over to spherecasting, you can just use the general replacement rules presented in SoP, which is why the SoM Magus has rules for how to integrate spherecasting. There will actually be another Magus archetype in Champions of the Spheres, the actual gish book, that combines both systems from the ground up. So it wasn't a "fail", it was us providing the widest number of options to our customers in the most effective way possible. If you do have Spheres of Might but don't have Spheres of Power, than you can still use the Magus archetype presented there, and you can even use it with both by simply swapping the Magus' spells for a Mid-Caster progression. If you want an archetype that combines both systems from the ground up, that will be in Champions of the Spheres (and should be in the playtest doc later today), which assumes you have access to both books.


For the option to trade out spellcasting or feats for spheres access, I don't believe it lists how to determine the Practitioner Modifier for those.

For spellcasting, I guess keeping the Spellcasting modifier would be fine, but not sure about what to do when trading feats.

Feats would use the default of Wisdom. We've got errata pending to clarify that when you trade out a casting progression for a practitioner progression, you use your casting ability score as your new practitioner modifier.


To expand on this question, the Dual Wielding sphere has language specifying that only the first attack is an attack action, and the Brawler archetype's pummel and the Monk archetype's flurry say their bonus attacks are a free action (and thus not an attack action), but the Barrage sphere has no such language.[...]

I've made Adam aware of the issue since it was changed from a previous version that used language closer to Dual Wielding. I'm assuming that it's an oversight and it will be updated to work like the other multi-attack options.

[AlienFromBeyond]

You don't actually need an archetype to convert a character over to spherecasting, you can just use the general replacement rules presented in SoP, which is why the SoM Magus has rules for how to integrate spherecasting.
I... completely forgot those rules even existed. They're so easy to gloss over, and are broken up over multiple sections, while SoM handles the replacement feature much better by having all the pieces for it in one place. Thank you for reminding me.


If you want an archetype that combines both systems from the ground up, that will be in Champions of the Spheres (and should be in the playtest doc later today), which assumes you have access to both books.
I'll be looking out for it!

[Ssalarn]

I... completely forgot those rules even existed. They're so easy to gloss over, and are broken up over multiple sections, while SoM handles the replacement feature much better by having all the pieces for it in one place. Thank you for reminding me.


I'll be looking out for it!


Should be in the playtest docs now!

[Aipaca]

Thoughts on allowing Equipment Sphere: Armour Training to be taken a third time to ignore move speed reduction from Medium Armour? Or just make it a function of taking it a second time if you already have light Armour Prof.?

[Cybershark]

I just caught wind that the new sphere playtest is up. Was almost, almost excited for the Magus archetype- like Christmas morning, a boy expecting a wonderful gift: but when he opened the present, all he found was disappointment.

Magus stands in a very weird place. It has cool design, admittedly. Slashing and swording away at people. But its design is very, very janky, to put it in simpler terms. Most Magus builds are going to be using a scimitar w/ Dexterity to Damage and the infamous Shocking Grasp spell. It's the most optimal Magus build, for a good reason: all other options are sickeningly worse than the vaunted, loved, every-street-corner Scimitar and Shocking Grasp (SnSG, for short, from now on.)


Magi having light armor proficiency pushes them to Dexterity in order to stay alive (finesse builds rule the roost in this regard). Gaining Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency later on is a joke.
Spell Combat is limited to using a one-handed melee weapon and a spell in the off-hand, which limits you to one-handed martial weapons.
Spellstrike has no benefit for any weapon that does not have an 18-20/x2 critical profile (limiting you to Rapier, Cutlass, and Scimitar, and of them, only Scimitar is able to benefit from Dexterity-to-Damage by level 3). Keen scimitars for EVERYONE.
A severe lack of GOOD touch spells as an alternative to the ever popular "d6 per 2 Caster Levels and +3 to hit vs metal armor" that is Shocking Grasp, on a class that is built around delivering devastating touch spells. Your best touch spell is simply the ability to hit more accurately and **** out more damage.


Of these problems, what does Sphere Magus fix? Problem #4: with Sphere Magus, you at least have the ability to throw out different kinds of destructive blast, or self-buff while full-attacking. You've got a bunch of spell points, you still retain the trappings of the Medium/Heavy Armor joke of a class feature. Very little changes for the Magus.

Of these problems, what does Runic Knight fix? None of these. It is still technically limited to Vancian spellcasting (even though it IS easy enough to houserule it together to use Spheres of Power). It is worse, in fact, that it does not have cantrips: you don't even have the ability to throw out an Arcane Mark via Spellstrike to get some extra weapon damage in. You are once-more forced to go the route of the Dextrous bastard. For all intents and purposes, the Runic Knight is a slightly fancier Magus that's going to have some flashy baubles from getting a handful of sphere talents.

Magus isn't my baby. Mystic is an archetype that needs to be rewritten from the ground up. We have to admit that Magus was bad design- but there are archetypes that can help with it. Mystic can be one of them. I don't know the thought process behind it, but this is what stands out to me about the archetype.


Loses spell combat but gains the ability to cast two spells at the same time (Internal Casting + normal standard-action casting) on themselves. Later gains tiny bonus to CMD, rather than Concentration, which would allow them to actually keep their spell more consistently.
Doesn't trade out Greater Spell Combat or True Magus. Dead features that you can't even use, as there is no wording to state that you get normal Spell Combat back (and if it just gave you normal Spell Combat, then it'd once more limit you to one-handed weapons, which is a no-go)
Armor talents are mandatory at 7th and 13th level, not something you can just take at 1st if you wanted to be a heavy-armored Magus.
Doesn't just go the Sphere Magus route of giving extra spellpoints and letting you use them in place of Arcane Pool points, or the Combat Hedgewitch route of having the two pools be segregated: instead, you spend Arcane Pool points to get temporary Spell Points
Advanced Spellstrike is still better for 18-20/x2 critical profile weapons, though with Critical Genius existing in SoM this issue is somewhat lessened as any weapon can become a 19-20/x2 (eventually 18-20/x2) critical profile weapon.
A slightly more personal quibble, but they can trade their Bonus Feats (of which they gain only 3) but not their Magus Arcana for extra Magic talents? Seems a bit odd to me as you don't gain much value from it: I'd rather just be able to trade all of them for extra magic or combat talents, as they're likely to be split between Magic/Martial talents anyway.
Still doesn't replace Fighter Training. One of the more useless class features gained far too late to matter for any early-game build viability.


Something ought to change. And it needs to change such that Mystic opens the door for proper build variety, rather than limiting you to destructive blasts delivered via Spellstrike, self-buffs via Internalized Casting, and then grabbing whatever other talents you want in order to: 1) hit harder, 2) buff harder, or 3) blast with your spell harder. Admittedly, being able to use Spellstrike with Ranged Weapons and Two-handed Weapons is pretty neat, but not enough to really salvage it.

Also, it REALLY just needs to get the proofreading stick. I mean, really? Leaving in dead features, giving you small bonuses that aren't appropriate for the type of action you'd get them in, retaining old, bad design choices inside shiney, new containers? Not even any cool Magus arcana you can take? Magus ain't my baby but I can tell when it's being mistreated, and this is some pretty bad mistreatment.

[Ssalarn]

*lots of stuff*

Let me start with- We're not rewriting the Magus class, we're providing an archetype to allow you to play the Magus with our new systems. You might find the Prodigy class to be a better fit for your tastes given your complaints.

To address a few of them-

Both the Mystic and the Runic Knight can start out with medium or heavy armor if that's what you want. That's where martial traditions come into play, allowing you to both obtain heavier armor proficiencies and reduce the ASF for wearing them.

It doesn't take houseruling to convert the Runic Knight over to spherecasting, there are rules for converting any caster over sans archetype right in SoP. And Runic Knight needs to be compatible with vancian casting because people purchasing SoM may not have necessarily already purchased SoP. It needed to be a standalone book, and as I've already mentioned, making it compatible with the Sphere Magus from SoP:E simply wasn't viable.

Replacing Fighter Training with something else isn't something we're looking to do. If you're right and it's worthless, then replacing it with something better means that we've failed in our design goal of making balanced options. If someone else likes having that option and currently uses it in a build that they're looking to convert over to the spheres system, than we've invalidated their build by replacing a class feature not because it was necessary, but because one individual wanted it.

How many Magus Arcana can the sphere magus archetypes use? Almost all of them (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/). I lost count somewhere around 50.

As to commentary on editing, that's one of the reasons we have an open playtest. So that people can enjoy our product for free during the development phase in exchange for helping us catch the things that slip through the cracks.

As to general commentary on the Magus- yeah, it's not the best designed class in the world. But a lot of people like it, including the things that aren't your favorite parts. There are 22 classes between Spheres of Might, Spheres of Power, and Champions of the Spheres, many of which have archetypes to blend the systems together. It sounds like maybe the Magus isn't the best fit for what you're hoping for and maybe the Prodigy, a martial/magic user built from the ground up to accommodate the two sphere systems, might be more your speed. The Magus is already one of the largest archetypes in SoM and CotS, and we're not going to rewrite it from the ground up. There's a higher chance of us just cutting it completely, which was seriously considered since it felt very redundant with some of the other options. It's there because we know that the class has its fans and we want them to be able to play what they like while using our options.

[Cybershark]

*snip*



I have no details about the Prodigy, ergo, I cannot pass judgement on if it is something I want, or if it fulfills my needs in a class. I am looking at the Magus on its own.

As well, there are multiple people holding the same thoughts I do: after we both looked at the archetype document, we were in agreement that it was just plain not that great, the Mystic archetype.

Fighter Training is worthless, though. A magus gets it at 10th level. They count as a 5th-level fighter for these feats when they get them, with a BaB of +7. By the time Fighter Training makes the Magus qualify for something, it is highly likely they will already meet a BaB Prerequisite associated with it. (i.e any feat that requires +11 BaB or Fighter level 8th: A magus will have +11 BaB at level 16, the same level he'd qualify as an 8th level fighter, rendering Fighter Training redundant).

However, this isn't the whole picture: more than a fair few feats that have a Fighter-level prereq. attached to them also require a Fighter class feature that the Magus cannot emulate, i.e Bravery, Armor, or Weapon Training. This narrows down the feat list to a very small number, of which only Weapon Specialization is maybe worth it, if the Magus cannot keep up with DPR (though at level 10, having to take Weapon Spec to keep up, you likely have other problems.) Fighter Training would be nice as a 1st-level feature, but nothing exceptional: it's stuff the Brawler and Swashbuckler have as a footnote. As a level 10 feature that doesn't even give full fighter levels for feat prerequisites, it's terrible, and represents the fact that Paizo vastly overvalued Fighter Levels.

Besides, why do you want to get into Fighter feats when there are Spheres of Might talents you can trade in for? NONE of which have any prerequisite related to Class level- only total character level, a previous talent, or a Base Attack Bonus prerequisite.

I don't particularly care that there are 50 magus arcana that the Magus can use. Most aren't that good. Perhaps one third of Magus arcana from Paizo's published content are worth taking. Of them, many are level-locked, in such a way that your choices are limited to maybe one-half of one-third of 60 total arcana. Mystic adds no special arcana that make it easier to blend your magic with your martial abilities. Meanwhile, Mageknight gains the ability to: trade a Mystic Combat for a bonus combat feat (in addition to the bonus feats they already have), can easily acquire Mystic Focus, and even gets serial-numbers-filed-off Spell Combat in the form of Talent Blending.



As well: Why is Mystic given a clunkier, limited-times-a-day class feature that's still going to be used to either: cast a spell, then make a Spheres of Might attack action (almost identical to Talent Blending), or nova hard and get a huge number of buffs going at once with no interaction between Spheres of Might or Spheres of Power? It's still an action-economy saving feature that's worth a dip, enabling High-casters to cheaply get off up to three spells a turn at a startlingly low level (standard action, move, then quicken spell for a swift action). It was certainly very strong before, but being so limited to once a day for a single spell is insulting. It's a slap in the face of a class feature when something blatantly superior exists as an optional ability for a different class!

Why still, does the Mystic not just use the simpler option presented by the first iteration of a spherecasting Magus? Mystic's Potency adds in multiple variables to keep track of (time, potentially THREE pools of points to mess with). The original Sphere Magus simply increases your spellpoint pool by 50% and has both your arcane pool and spell pool be one and the same. No finagling with temporary spellpoints that could end up wasted and no finagling with multiple pools. If you are aiming for simplicity, having one pool instead of three is as simple as can be: it's one-third as many resources to track.

Addendum: Armor Training: While the Mystic's Armor Training ability is fairly harmless, I'm still not a fan of its current execution. For what it's worth, free Armor Training and an extra Equipment talent aren't bad, and then another extra one at 13th also is rather nice. But its still reminiscent of the classic Magus' shenanigans with Light>Medium>Heavy Armor shenanigans, especially with regards to straight up forcing Armor Training to be taken (even if you don't want it). For a light-armor magus, it's a dead talent. For a magus that already invested to get medium and heavy armor, it's really quite nothing.

[Ssalarn]

I have no details about the Prodigy, ergo, I cannot pass judgement on if it is something I want, or if it fulfills my needs in a class. I am looking at the Magus on its own.

We wrote an entire book, not one archetype. If you can't be bothered to read the materials that are available to you, I can't do anything about that. Everyone who backed and anyone who's been following the playtest should have access to the prodigy playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v9PDF-VAiBC1DENcm0IDeFFRPv_JmKi0lrS-rp6lk7Q/edit).



Fighter Training is worthless, though. A magus gets it at 10th level. They count as a 5th-level fighter for these feats when they get them, with a BaB of +7. By the time Fighter Training makes the Magus qualify for something, it is highly likely they will already meet a BaB Prerequisite associated with it. (i.e any feat that requires +11 BaB or Fighter level 8th: A magus will have +11 BaB at level 16, the same level he'd qualify as an 8th level fighter, rendering Fighter Training redundant).

It's great that you feel that way, but there are people out there who actually like feats like Critical Mastery, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Martial Versatility, Penetrating Strike, Shatterspell, Shield Specialization, Spellbreaker, Weapon Specialization, and any other feats that the magus can only take if it retains that class ability. Now granted, a few of those are still out of the magus' reach, but they can be accessible through multiclass builds that keep a lot of what a person might want out of the magus available.



However, this isn't the whole picture: more than a fair few feats that have a Fighter-level prereq. attached to them also require a Fighter class feature that the Magus cannot emulate, i.e Bravery, Armor, or Weapon Training. This narrows down the feat list to a very small number, of which only Weapon Specialization is maybe worth it, if the Magus cannot keep up with DPR (though at level 10, having to take Weapon Spec to keep up, you likely have other problems.) Fighter Training would be nice as a 1st-level feature, but nothing exceptional: it's stuff the Brawler and Swashbuckler have as a footnote. As a level 10 feature that doesn't even give full fighter levels for feat prerequisites, it's terrible, and represents the fact that Paizo vastly overvalued Fighter Levels.

Again, it's great that you feel that way, but as I mentioned above there are a lot of feats that don't require those class features but do require fighter levels, and people like that option. We're not going to scrap a class feature because you don't like it when it can be key to a lot of builds.



Besides, why do you want to get into Fighter feats when there are Spheres of Might talents you can trade in for? NONE of which have any prerequisite related to Class level- only total character level, a previous talent, or a Base Attack Bonus prerequisite.


There are a lot of feats we intentionally didn't overlap, and several of those fall under the feats that one would want Fighter Training for. And again, as I previously mentioned, if the class feature really were as worthless as you insist, us replacing it with something stronger would be unbalanced design and contrary to our design goals of creating a product that is compatible with and balanced to the widest numbers of gaming groups possible.



I don't particularly care that there are 50 magus arcana that the Magus can use. Most aren't that good. Perhaps one third of Magus arcana from Paizo's published content are worth taking. Of them, many are level-locked, in such a way that your choices are limited to maybe one-half of one-third of 60 total arcana. Mystic adds no special arcana that make it easier to blend your magic with your martial abilities. Meanwhile, Mageknight gains the ability to: trade a Mystic Combat for a bonus combat feat (in addition to the bonus feats they already have), can easily acquire Mystic Focus, and even gets serial-numbers-filed-off Spell Combat in the form of Talent Blending.

So you don't like Spell Combat, you don't like Spellstrike, you don't like magus arcana, and you don't like Fighter Training. So what you don't like is the Magus. This archetype is for people who do like the Magus and want to keep as much of it as possible while converting over to our system. As I've already said, we're not rewriting the class, nor are we going to make a version that's strictly stronger than Paizo's. Instead of writing page-long forum posts expressing your aggrieved opinion, you might be better served to go and read up on the prodigy (which I even linked to for you above).



As well: Why is Mystic given a clunkier, limited-times-a-day class feature that's still going to be used to either: cast a spell, then make a Spheres of Might attack action (almost identical to Talent Blending), or nova hard and get a huge number of buffs going at once with no interaction between Spheres of Might or Spheres of Power? It's still an action-economy saving feature that's worth a dip, enabling High-casters to cheaply get off up to three spells a turn at a startlingly low level (standard action, move, then quicken spell for a swift action). It was certainly very strong before, but being so limited to once a day for a single spell is insulting. It's a slap in the face of a class feature when something blatantly superior exists as an optional ability for a different class!

You should rein in the hyperbole, it's making it hard to find your actual point.
First, you actually can't cast three spells per turn- A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html#casting-time)

There is some text, in the sections that talk about casting quickened or swift spells, that notes that you are limited to only casting one spell per round (calling such spells out as an exception). (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2paun?Mythic-Adventures-Update-122112#23)
Internal Casting doesn't give you more spells, it gives you the ability to cast them under different circumstances depending on your circumstances, with a reasonable limit on how often you can downgrade spell costs in that manner.

Secondly, the power and effectiveness of Spellstrike has been greatly improved. Not only have we opened up the weapons and combat style it's compatible with, we've published an entire book full of compatible new options to go with it. When you balance an archetype, you balance it as a whole and weigh that against the original class. The spell combat option is limited because the advanced spellstrike is significantly stronger. You don't need to cast Bladed Dash to move and hit effectively, you can use the Athletics sphere to bounce and dodge up to your opponent before dropping an advanced spellstrike attack on them, which could very well include some other handy trigger based on making an attack action. With that increase in potential we need to evaluate the other options so that the chassis as a whole maintains its integrity.



Why still, does the Mystic not just use the simpler option presented by the first iteration of a spherecasting Magus? Mystic's Potency adds in multiple variables to keep track of (time, potentially THREE pools of points to mess with). The original Sphere Magus simply increases your spellpoint pool by 50% and has both your arcane pool and spell pool be one and the same. No finagling with temporary spellpoints that could end up wasted and no finagling with multiple pools. If you are aiming for simplicity, having one pool instead of three is as simple as can be: it's one-third as many resources to track.

Because literally the number one most repeated complaint about the Sphere Magus is that it gave up its arcane pool, and we're not trying to repeat things we've already done.



Addendum: Armor Training: While the Mystic's Armor Training ability is fairly harmless, I'm still not a fan of its current execution. For what it's worth, free Armor Training and an extra Equipment talent aren't bad, and then another extra one at 13th also is rather nice. But its still reminiscent of the classic Magus' shenanigans with Light>Medium>Heavy Armor shenanigans, especially with regards to straight up forcing Armor Training to be taken (even if you don't want it). For a light-armor magus, it's a dead talent. For a magus that already invested to get medium and heavy armor, it's really quite nothing.

If you already invested in getting medium and heavy armor, you have free Equipment talents for rounding out your build. And, as I've already told you many times, we're not rewriting the magus class. We're changing enough to make it compatible and functional within the new system with a wide variety of builds while trying to leave as much of it the same as we reasonably can. You may not like the Magus, but there are thousands of players who do, and every time we gut something out of the class we're not just taking that option away, we're taking away archetypes and other things that players love and don't want to lose because they see them as defining parts of their character.

When we take away or alter things like the arcane pool, fighter training, magus arcana, or medium and heavy armor, we're not just taking away those options, we're also taking away core archetypes like the very popular Bladebound. The more things we change, the less people are able to use their favorite options, and we've already changed a lot to make it work within the system.

[AlienFromBeyond]

It's great that you feel that way, but there are people out there who actually like feats like Critical Mastery, Disrupting Shot, Disruptive, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Shield Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Martial Versatility, Penetrating Strike, Shatterspell, Shield Specialization, Spellbreaker, Weapon Specialization, and any other feats that the magus can only take if it retains that class ability. Now granted, a few of those are still out of the magus' reach, but they can be accessible through multiclass builds that keep a lot of what a person might want out of the magus available.
Hold on, I have to butt in here. It's not just a "few. A full 4 of these feats are never accessible to the magus, and 2 more only if retraining rules are allowed and you retrain at level 20, nearly half of the feats you provide as an example. The rest of those feats, less than a handful are even worth considering, with the others just being plain crap or coming in way too late (level 14 or later). And if you're not using SoP casting on the magus, multiclassing out of magus is a terrible idea unless it's into a prestige class. I understand why you might not want to provide something that is a straight upgrade as a replacement, but to call Fighter Training even vaguely "useful" is disingenuous.


We wrote an entire book, not one archetype. If you can't be bothered to read the materials that are available to you, I can't do anything about that. Everyone who backed and anyone who's been following the playtest should have access to the prodigy playtest.
Which one wouldn't know about without you posting it just now because it's buried in the middle of this thread, no announcement in the first post, and the archetype playtest doc doesn't even cross-link to it like the various SoM playtest docs did to each other. Don't jump down someone else's throat for not knowing information you do not easily provide.

[arkangel111]

Hold on I have to butt in here. You are discussing problems with the Magus class, not the SoP/SoM 3rd party material. If there is a problem with the Magus class that is something PAIZO needs to fix. DDS made a product to fit in with the ALREADY existing class, and tried to make it work similar to other PAIZO products. Jumping down a designer's throat over it not fitting your standards is not polite.

Out of 25 OFFICIAL archetype options 3 of them lose fighter training, and 1 of them changes it. Out of 48 total between all 3PP content according to D20PFSRD.com only 1 other publisher lost fighter training with an archetype with 1 of their options. less than 5% of the options available lose fighter training and you are complaining, very loudly I might add, that DDS's 2 options don't lose it. Do you realize how ridiculous that is? If you don't like their option then make your own house rule for it. 3PP is not even a 1/4 step away from homebrew material.

Now back to the real discussion on hand. I can't seem to get the links to work, it keeps pulling open a blank page, no matter which option I choose. Is the playtest closed? I noticed an issue with an interaction between 2 abilities I wanted to bring up but can't seem to get it to work today.

[EldritchWeaver]

Now back to the real discussion on hand. I can't seem to get the links to work, it keeps pulling open a blank page, no matter which option I choose. Is the playtest closed? I noticed an issue with an interaction between 2 abilities I wanted to bring up but can't seem to get it to work today.

The link to the archetypes works fine for me.

[arkangel111]

weird I've still got nothing... I even tried to print it and it shows up as a single blank page. anyone have any ideas?

[Aipaca]

Just a bump on these questions? I realise I'm asking a lot but I'm trying to procrastinate from studying for finals here :smallbiggrin:


1. Conscript Specialisations - Sniper Sphere Specialisation - Precision Shots lets you use a move action to steady your weapon, but in order to use your Deadly Shot Sniper Sphere ability you (probably) need to use your move action each turn to reload your weapon to regain martial focus? So you'll only be using Precision Shots on the first round of combat or on a round in which you are not going to be able to use Deadly Shot?

2. Does the Shield Sphere: Forced Rebound (Deflect) talent allow the enemy to take an AoO?

3. For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?

4. For the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?

5. Thoughts on allowing Equipment Sphere: Armour Training to be taken a third time to ignore move speed reduction from Medium Armour? Or just make it a function of taking it a second time if you already have light Armour Prof.?

[stack]

Shield sphere Forced Rebound is not intended to provoke an AOO.

[Wartex1]

Oh, one thing I noticed that was missing for converting a partial caster to a practitioner is what to do with class features that affect spells and whatnot, like the Skald's Spell Kenning. For the other classes, at least, there are archetypes which replace those, but the Skald doesn't have a SoM archetype, so I'm not sure what to do with Spell Kenning. Should I just trade it for appropriate bonus talents (Warleader and Berserker for Skald)?

[Mehangel]

On the subject of Champions of the Spheres, can you tell us of any changes to the Sage class? Mostly I am curious about the following:
- Has the Sage class been modified so to be given the 'Casting' class feature, so that it could
A) Gain a Casting Tradition (perhaps granting bonus ki points instead of spell points during levels where such would be gained)
B) Resolve issues with Sage characters who multiclass into other spherecasting classes.
C) Resolve issues for meeting spherecasting feat prerequisites? (including feats such as: Cantrips (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc8), Circle Casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc13), Contingency (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc15), Counterspell (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/counterspell-feats), Create Spellbook (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc17), Ritual Caster (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc44), Spellcrafting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc54), etc)
- Any chance of the Sage also getting the Blended Training class feature (like the Prodigy)
- How many archetypes are currently being worked on for the Sage class (if any), and what do they do?

Bumping these questions a second time.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Oh, one thing I noticed that was missing for converting a partial caster to a practitioner is what to do with class features that affect spells and whatnot, like the Skald's Spell Kenning. For the other classes, at least, there are archetypes which replace those, but the Skald doesn't have a SoM archetype, so I'm not sure what to do with Spell Kenning. Should I just trade it for appropriate bonus talents (Warleader and Berserker for Skald)?
Not a designer, but I'd just houserule it to instead temporarily gain access to a Talent you don't otherwise have, but qualify for. Flavor it as recalling a maneuver (or charm if you keep it magic) from a tale you know.

[torrasque666]

Am I the only one getting a blank page when loading these?

[Ssalarn]

Which one wouldn't know about without you posting it just now because it's buried in the middle of this thread, no announcement in the first post, and the archetype playtest doc doesn't even cross-link to it like the various SoM playtest docs did to each other. Don't jump down someone else's throat for not knowing information you do not easily provide.

Anyone who backed the Kickstarter actually should have got the link in an e-mail update. So if he didn't know, that means he literally decided to come into this thread and start talking down to our team because he didnt like that the free playtest materials we wrote weren't trying to completely rewrite Paizo's class.


*truth*
Thank you.



Now back to the real discussion on hand. I can't seem to get the links to work, it keeps pulling open a blank page, no matter which option I choose. Is the playtest closed? I noticed an issue with an interaction between 2 abilities I wanted to bring up but can't seem to get it to work today.

The main SoM playtest should be closed now that the .pdf is out, but the archetypes and gish classes should still be up. What interactions were you having a problem with?



Oh, one thing I noticed that was missing for converting a partial caster to a practitioner is what to do with class features that affect spells and whatnot, like the Skald's Spell Kenning. For the other classes, at least, there are archetypes which replace those, but the Skald doesn't have a SoM archetype, so I'm not sure what to do with Spell Kenning. Should I just trade it for appropriate bonus talents (Warleader and Berserker for Skald)?

Yeah, that would be a good way to go. I'll bring this up with the team, both whether we should have a general rule about class features that interact with casting, and if we have room to add skald in somewhere since it probably should be represented.


1. Conscript Specialisations - Sniper Sphere Specialisation - Precision Shots lets you use a move action to steady your weapon, but in order to use your Deadly Shot Sniper Sphere ability you (probably) need to use your move action each turn to reload your weapon to regain martial focus? So you'll only be using Precision Shots on the first round of combat or on a round in which you are not going to be able to use Deadly Shot?

Let me double-check that a bit. It might have been one those things where we flipped it from a swift action so it didn't compete with other options. I'm not sure if it's something we can/will change, but I'll definitely at least see if we can't improve the synergy.



2. Does the Shield Sphere: Forced Rebound (Deflect) talent allow the enemy to take an AoO?
It's not supposed to, which I believe we're clarifying



3. For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?

4. For the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?


I bumped these over to the team since Technician isn't something I worked on. I'll update this with an answer once I get one.



5. Thoughts on allowing Equipment Sphere: Armour Training to be taken a third time to ignore move speed reduction from Medium Armour? Or just make it a function of taking it a second time if you already have light Armour Prof.?

I think we actually had something like this originally and decided that movement speed improvements were more "class feature territory".


On the subject of Champions of the Spheres, can you tell us of any changes to the Sage class? Mostly I am curious about the following:
- Has the Sage class been modified so to be given the 'Casting' class feature

No. The sage really isn't intended to be a caster, it's a martial artist whose abilities bridge the gap between the mundane and the magical. It's possible to make a sage who doesn't pick up any casting talents and that's really how we want it to work.
[/quote]



A) Gain a Casting Tradition (perhaps granting bonus ki points instead of spell points during levels where such would be gained)

Gaining a casting tradition was something we ultimately decided against.

[/quote]
B) Resolve issues with Sage characters who multiclass into other spherecasting classes.[/quote]

This should not be a lingering issue as the sage can spend ki in place of spell points and vice versa when multiclassing, as well as treating its class level as caster levels for sphere effects.



C) Resolve issues for meeting spherecasting feat prerequisites? (including feats such as: Cantrips, Circle Casting, Contingency, Counterspell, Create Spellbook, Ritual Caster, Spellcrafting, etc)

Ultimately we felt those options didn't align with the class we were building.



- Any chance of the Sage also getting the Blended Training class feature (like the Prodigy)

Probably not since we don't want to present the sage as a caster.



- How many archetypes are currently being worked on for the Sage class (if any), and what do they do?

None for CotS. We're beyond out of room and the three new gish classes have a lot of replayability, so we're foregoing archetypes for them in favor of fitting as many archetypes in for other classes as our page count and budget allow.

[Kaouse]

I'm not sure if this question has been asked before, but what is the interaction between Vital Strike and attack action abilities that give more than one attack, such as the Barrage Sphere's base ability, or Suppressive Rush from the Open Hand Sphere? Do all attacks gain Vital Strike damage, or is it only one attack, or what?

[Wartex1]

I'm not sure if this question has been asked before, but what is the interaction between Vital Strike and attack action abilities that give more than one attack, such as the Barrage Sphere's base ability, or Suppressive Rush from the Open Hand Sphere? Do all attacks gain Vital Strike damage, or is it only one attack, or what?

With those (as mentioned previously), the additional attacks from those abilities are not actually part of the Attack Action, so do not benefit from Vital Strike. Due to an error, the language that indicates this is not present in the Barrage sphere, though it is supposed to be.

However, the initial attack is still part of the Attack Action, so it can benefit from Vital Strike.

[ChrisAsmadi]

Don't know if I'm being dense or something, but I'm reading the Prodigy right now and I can't tell how you're supposed to reliably build up links after the opener (or are the openers still valid for gaining links beyond the first)? Apart from Counting Coup, they all seem pretty situational.

[EldritchWeaver]

Don't know if I'm being dense or something, but I'm reading the Prodigy right now and I can't tell how you're supposed to reliably build up links after the opener (or are the openers still valid for gaining links beyond the first)? Apart from Counting Coup, they all seem pretty situational.

All openers are also links, if you have at least 1 link. It is stated in the opener rules.

[ChrisAsmadi]

All openers are also links, if you have at least 1 link. It is stated in the opener rules.

It's actually in the Link Component rules, that's why I missed it.

[Ssalarn]

EldritchWeaver and WarTex1 were quick on the draw, but just in case there's any question about whether or not their answers were "official" (and they were both correct in their responses):


I'm not sure if this question has been asked before, but what is the interaction between Vital Strike and attack action abilities that give more than one attack, such as the Barrage Sphere's base ability, or Suppressive Rush from the Open Hand Sphere? Do all attacks gain Vital Strike damage, or is it only one attack, or what?

Most of them clarify that the additional attack is a free/swift/immediate/etc. action and only the initial attack qualifies for the Vital Strike bonus damage. Barrage sphere lost some text at some point muddying the waters, but only the initial attack is intended to benefit from Vital Strike.


Don't know if I'm being dense or something, but I'm reading the Prodigy right now and I can't tell how you're supposed to reliably build up links after the opener (or are the openers still valid for gaining links beyond the first)? Apart from Counting Coup, they all seem pretty situational.

As noted, openers also count as links, so you should have enough options to maintain your momentum, though playtest feedback on the prodigy has been quiet and we're very open to hearing any feedback you have from playing the class.

[Kaouse]

Thanks for the quick response, but I would like a bit more clarification.



Most of them clarify that the additional attack is a free/swift/immediate/etc. action and only the initial attack qualifies for the Vital Strike bonus damage. Barrage sphere lost some text at some point muddying the waters, but only the initial attack is intended to benefit from Vital Strike.


Here's the text for Suppressive Rush:


As an attack action, you may expend your martial focus to make two attacks with your unarmed strike, targeting the creature’s touch AC and dealing 1/2 damage on a successful attack (making more than one successful attack with this talent still only counts as a single successful attack for the purpose of feats and class features which grant bonuses upon landing multiple successful attacks). The creature may choose to automatically block all of these attacks, in which case your unarmed strikes automatically miss, but that creature then takes a -2 penalty to all attack and damage rolls until they take a Total Defense action or until they are not subject to any hostile actions for one round. For every 4 points of base attack bonus you possess, you may make an additional unarmed strike as part of this attack action, and the penalty that creature takes for blocking your Suppressive Rush increases by -2.

It's initial ability allows you to make 2 unarmed attacks as an attack action. Since attack actions can be combined with Vital Strike, do both "initial attacks" gain Vital Strike damage (albeit with the 1/2 damage penalty) or does only 1 of the two? When your BAB increases and you gain additional attacks, am I meant to understand that they do NOT gain Vital Strike damage, as they are "add-ons" to the attack action, rather than the attack action itself?

Is there a universal Rule that states that Vital Strike may only be applied once to any specific attack action?

[Ssalarn]

Thanks for the quick response, but I would like a bit more clarification.



Here's the text for Suppressive Rush:



It's initial ability allows you to make 2 unarmed attacks as an attack action. Since attack actions can be combined with Vital Strike, do both "initial attacks" gain Vital Strike damage (albeit with the 1/2 damage penalty) or does only 1 of the two? When your BAB increases and you gain additional attacks, am I meant to understand that they do NOT gain Vital Strike damage, as they are "add-ons" to the attack action, rather than the attack action itself?

Is there a universal Rule that states that Vital Strike may only be applied once to any specific attack action?

There's not, but I suspect that Suppressive Rush is in the same boat as the Barrage ability where it should be specifying that those additional attacks are made separately. Let me double check with Ehn though since that's one of his. As written, you would be correct in interpreting that as indicating that all the attacks benefit from Vital Strike.

[Galacktic]

Regardless of tone, you should at least consider the critique he offered the Magus archetype, Sslarn. His tone was awful, but he had valid critique which is what the playtest is about. (And yes, the archetype playtest document needs more visibility - just dropping it in an existing thread with no actual announcement is a terrible way of getting it known, and it's probably the least viewed document you guys have released yet due to that.)

[Quarian Rex]

Hoping that the eloquent and well reasoned thoughts on the Technician found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22496745&postcount=355) might be addressed. I'm looking to use these in a game and I'd really like to know what the consensus might be.

[Kaouse]

Here's another question then, If you use the Shield Sphere's Punch Block talent, can you use this to deflect touch attacks? For reference:



When you use your active defense, you may choose to make
an attack roll as if making a shield bash and must use the
result of this attack in place of your AC for resolving
the attack, even if lower. You must be capable
of making shield bash attacks with the shield
to use this ability.

Emphasis mine.

[Mithril Leaf]

(And yes, the archetype playtest document needs more visibility - just dropping it in an existing thread with no actual announcement is a terrible way of getting it known, and it's probably the least viewed document you guys have released yet due to that.)

I very much agree that a either N. Jolly needs to update the initial post with all of the updated Playtesting material or there needs to be a new thread, assuming feedback on the playtest is actually desired.

EDIT: I also am unable to view the initial Hybrid Class document. It's just a blank page as described earlier.

[Ssalarn]

Regardless of tone, you should at least consider the critique he offered the Magus archetype, Sslarn. His tone was awful, but he had valid critique which is what the playtest is about. (And yes, the archetype playtest document needs more visibility - just dropping it in an existing thread with no actual announcement is a terrible way of getting it known, and it's probably the least viewed document you guys have released yet due to that.)

We sent update e-mails to all of our Kickstarter backers with direct links. I've asked Jolly to get those links added to the OP and that should be happening right now.
As I told that particular poster multiple times across multiple forums, we're not trying to "fix" the Magus. We're trying to tweak the Magus to work within the framework of our system while preserving as much of it as possible. I'm not trying to defend the magus (or condemn it), I'm saying that there are tons of people who love the class and we're not trying to rewrite it to the point that it's no longer recognizable. When you come in throwing a tantrum and implying that the members of the design team are stupid or don't know what we're doing, especially when you're giving strong indications that you aren't even a paying customer, you're not asking to be taken seriously. To the contrary, you are providing us with reasons to ignore what you are saying. Instead of following that impulse, I provided reasoned and researched answers with proposals for how we could adjust things while clarifying what options aren't up for discussion, which the poster ignored in favor of continuing to throw a tantrum. If you want to be given the same respect and consideration as any other individual, you need to give the same respect and consideration as any other person. As you yourself have very clearly demonstrated, that is entirely possible.

So, that being said-
We're looking at both the Talent Blending option and the Mystic's Internal Fortitude. There are some real issues with Talent Blending that we need to address related to both its relative strength and how it interacts within the dynamics we've created for Spheres of Might, which is one of the reasons we've temporarily pulled the mageknight mystic talent granting it while we work through the process of deciding how we want everything to work together. Right now there is a very high chance that all instances of Talent Blending are going to be pulled from the project; the prodigy has other ways of blending magic and martial talents and currently it's so ridiculously good as a low level class feature that everyone who wants to max out their DPR while stacking on extra riders is going to be hard-pressed not to dip two levels to get it. That's part of why Internal Fortitude goes off a limited use structure gated by class levels; so that if you dip it you're only going to get that 1 use, not a fully progressed ability.

So, assume that if we haven't touched a magus class feature already, we're probably not going to. We've actually been looking at ways to touch even fewer class features so that we can open up the core archetypes it's compatible with. If you want a completely rewritten martial and magic mixer, that's why we wrote the prodigy. That doesn't mean that we don't have some room to make adjustments within the Mystic archetype though. Right now, Advanced Spellstrike has gotten some pretty significant buffs over core Spellstrike; you can use it with any combat style, not just light weapons, you can combine it with Vital Strike, and you can add all of the cool extra abilities from SoM onto it. For a really optimized build, this actually makes it better than traditional Spell Combat + Spellstrike when used with an attack spell until nearly 15th level. As such, something really should give elsewhere in the archetype, and Spell Combat was the logical place for that to happen since it doesn't really jive with our goals of mobile, cinematic combat anyways. We recognize that there are some people who don't like Internal Casting, and that's an area where we potentially have some flexibility. Some possible changes could include-

Increasing the number of times Internal Casting can be used to 1/ class level
Making Internal Casting (or any potential replacement) viable for archetype swapping as long as the other archetype trades out all instances of spell combat and its upgrades.
Rewriting it into an ability that would not be compatible with Advanced Spellstrike, but would allow you to expend your martial focus to move up to your half your speed, make an attack action, and cast a spell, using your full round and swift actions.


We're more than happy to hear any thoughts on preferences regarding any of those changes.


I very much agree that a either N. Jolly needs to update the initial post with all of the updated Playtesting material or there needs to be a new thread, assuming feedback on the playtest is actually desired.

EDIT: I also am unable to view the initial Hybrid Class document. It's just a blank page as described earlier.

Jolly should be updating the OP now. He's been on other projects for a bit and we haven't really had him available. Adam cleared out a lot of the old playtest links after SoM became available for purchase, but I think that someone should be carrying the Sage and Troubadour over to one of the live links shortly.


Here's another question then, If you use the Shield Sphere's Punch Block talent, can you use this to deflect touch attacks?


It looks like Stack is double-checking that, but as of now I believe that yes, Punch Block can be used against touch attacks.

[stack]

Here's another question then, If you use the Shield Sphere's Punch Block talent, can you use this to deflect touch attacks? For reference:



Emphasis mine.

It applies to touch attacks as well. Picture smacking the mage's arm with the brim of your shield before his hand lands the touch (or something to that effect).

[Ssalarn]

Hoping that the eloquent and well reasoned thoughts on the Technician found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22496745&postcount=355) might be addressed. I'm looking to use these in a game and I'd really like to know what the consensus might be.

I've bumped that over to Adam so he can get you a response. The Technician is such a massive class that we're trying to leave responses to questions to the main designer, both so that designer intent is accurately reflected in the response and just in case any updates need to be made.

[Quarian Rex]

I've bumped that over to Adam so he can get you a response. The Technician is such a massive class that we're trying to leave responses to questions to the main designer, both so that designer intent is accurately reflected in the response and just in case any updates need to be made.

Much thanks.

[Aipaca]

*snip* R.I.P. talent blending

Damn, and here I was coming suggest a Martial Bard archetype giving talent blending in exchange for versatile performance or something.

[Ssalarn]

Damn, and here I was coming suggest a Martial Bard archetype giving talent blending in exchange for versatile performance or something.

It's not really 100% as to whether it's "dead" currently or just under revision. One of the big things we're tackling is that it's so good that if we add it anywhere, it becomes a must-have for anyone who wants to both cast spells and swing swords. It's especially problematic as such a low level ability where it's just screaming "Take one/two levels of me on your way to your actual class!!!" For most builds there's not a lot of downside in taking that dip because the mid-caster/fighter classes are offering up a martial tradition, a casting tradition, and the normal bonus talents, so you're only losing that 1 talent from your spell and martial ability progression in exchange for a really potent ability.

Whether the proper handling of that is going to be making it a feat, keeping it removed, or reintroducing it in a manner where its use is more consistent with its cost is something the team is still working on.

[Drifter S.]

We recognize that there are some people who don't like Internal Casting, and that's an area where we potentially have some flexibility. Some possible changes could include-

Increasing the number of times Internal Casting can be used to 1/ class level
Making Internal Casting (or any potential replacement) viable for archetype swapping as long as the other archetype trades out all instances of spell combat and its upgrades.
Rewriting it into an ability that would not be compatible with Advanced Spellstrike, but would allow you to expend your martial focus to move up to your half your speed, make an attack action, and cast a spell, using your full round and swift actions.


Personally, I feel like the last one would be best. Internal Casting doesn't really seem like it "fits". Advanced Spellstrike already covers using offensive touch spells by adding them as a rider to your attack action, but leaves you high and dry if you want to use other spells (which aren't self-buffs only), move, and still attack. Limitations to keep it from being an obvious dip choice should be kept, but making it a "per-day" thing when Advanced Spellstrike isn't one just makes a player feel like they're forced into the old "spam destruction all day" route again. It'd be fair to make it require you to stay with Magus to be at its best (no longer need to spend martial focus, get full speed movement, remove an attack penalty, bonuses when concentrating) to serve as a way to strike a balance between someone investing fully in the class and someone just dipping for the big feature.

Of course, I also still think Armor Training being forced is wonky, but that horse is probably rotting already.

[Ssalarn]

Personally, I feel like the last one would be best. Internal Casting doesn't really seem like it "fits". Advanced Spellstrike already covers using offensive touch spells by adding them as a rider to your attack action, but leaves you high and dry if you want to use other spells (which aren't self-buffs only), move, and still attack. Limitations to keep it from being an obvious dip choice should be kept, but making it a "per-day" thing when Advanced Spellstrike isn't one just makes a player feel like they're forced into the old "spam destruction all day" route again. It'd be fair to make it require you to stay with Magus to be at its best (no longer need to spend martial focus, get full speed movement, remove an attack penalty, bonuses when concentrating) to serve as a way to strike a balance between someone investing fully in the class and someone just dipping for the big feature.

Of course, I also still think Armor Training being forced is wonky, but that horse is probably rotting already.

Thanks for the feedback! We're probably going to let this subject roll for another day or two while we accrue feedback and hammer out our thoughts internally before we make any changes, but I'm leaning towards option 3 myself.

[Aipaca]

It's not really 100% as to whether it's "dead" currently or just under revision. One of the big things we're tackling is that it's so good that if we add it anywhere, it becomes a must-have for anyone who wants to both cast spells and swing swords. It's especially problematic as such a low level ability where it's just screaming "Take one/two levels of me on your way to your actual class!!!" For most builds there's not a lot of downside in taking that dip because the mid-caster/fighter classes are offering up a martial tradition, a casting tradition, and the normal bonus talents, so you're only losing that 1 talent from your spell and martial ability progression in exchange for a really potent ability.

Whether the proper handling of that is going to be making it a feat, keeping it removed, or reintroducing it in a manner where its use is more consistent with its cost is something the team is still working on.

Wait a second, my reading of Talent Blending (which was me just skimming it) assumed that it was only for talents gained by levels in the class giving spell blending. Wouldn't this be the solution to stop the dipping problem you are talking about?

Edit - or just make it an optional exchange you can make on any 3/4 Spherecaster that gets full CL in a sphere in exchange for your full CL in a sphere; it just gives a bit of added versatility in exchange for some power.

[Ssalarn]

Wait a second, my reading of Spell Blending (which was me just skimming it) assumed that it was only for talents gained by levels in the class giving spell blending. Wouldn't this be the solution to stop the dipping problem you are talking about?

Sorry! There's some confusion and it's probably my fault (though I blame Stack for the naming conventions :smalltongue:). We have/had two "blending options"

Talent Blending, which acted as a kind of attack action oriented spell combat

and

Blended Training, the class feature we give to classes that can pull both magic and martial sphere talents.

The one we've pulled is the faux Spell Combat one, not the talent progression one. Blended Training is still something we're supporting in the system and it would make perfect sense to carry that over to a bard build in place of spellcasting.

[Aipaca]

Sorry! There's some confusion and it's probably my fault (though I blame Stack for the naming conventions :smalltongue:). We have/had two "blending options"

Talent Blending, which acted as a kind of attack action oriented spell combat

and

Blended Training, the class feature we give to classes that can pull both magic and martial sphere talents.

The one we've pulled is the faux Spell Combat one, not the talent progression one. Blended Training is still something we're supporting in the system and it would make perfect sense to carry that over to a bard build in place of spellcasting.

Ahhhh that's definitely my bad, sorry Sslarn! I'll blame it on you guys putting out so much fantastic content. So much to read and so many concepts to enable. I didn't get around to backing but I bought SoM on release and I am having so much fun with it, you guys really do great work.

[Ssalarn]

Ahhhh that's definitely my bad, sorry Sslarn! I'll blame it on you guys putting out so much fantastic content. So much to read and so many concepts to enable. I didn't get around to backing but I bought SoM on release and I am having so much fun with it, you guys really do great work.

No worries, and thank you! I'll pass your compliments along to the team.

[Quarian Rex]

We recognize that there are some people who don't like Internal Casting, and that's an area where we potentially have some flexibility. Some possible changes could include-

Increasing the number of times Internal Casting can be used to 1/ class level
Making Internal Casting (or any potential replacement) viable for archetype swapping as long as the other archetype trades out all instances of spell combat and its upgrades.
Rewriting it into an ability that would not be compatible with Advanced Spellstrike, but would allow you to expend your martial focus to move up to your half your speed, make an attack action, and cast a spell, using your full round and swift actions.


Personally, I feel like the last one would be best. Internal Casting doesn't really seem like it "fits". Advanced Spellstrike already covers using offensive touch spells by adding them as a rider to your attack action, but leaves you high and dry if you want to use other spells (which aren't self-buffs only), move, and still attack. Limitations to keep it from being an obvious dip choice should be kept, but making it a "per-day" thing when Advanced Spellstrike isn't one just makes a player feel like they're forced into the old "spam destruction all day" route again. It'd be fair to make it require you to stay with Magus to be at its best (no longer need to spend martial focus, get full speed movement, remove an attack penalty, bonuses when concentrating) to serve as a way to strike a balance between someone investing fully in the class and someone just dipping for the big feature.

Of course, I also still think Armor Training being forced is wonky, but that horse is probably rotting already.

Another vote for option number three. The Magus is a class based around casting spells in combat. That is its one defining feature and reducing that to a limited use ability does not maintain the intent of the class. Opening up weapon selection in Spellstrike in no way balances the removal of the Magus' core ability to keep casting spells while engaged in melee combat.

Adding higher level options to Spell Combat could resolve the worry about dip abuse. There were ideas thrown about in the Alas, poor Sphere Magus thread. Perhaps something like...

this is one of the main differences between Vancian and SoP magic. Concentration was a rarity in Vancian, but is the absolute default in SoP and so I think that it needs to be taken into account. How about if while using Spell Combat the Magus automatically passes all concentration checks to maintain concentration due to damage if it is provoked by someone that they threaten? That's a bit of a long-winded way to put it but I hope you see where I'm going. The key here is not necessarily being immune to concentration checks but for the Magus to function at his peak within his realm of mastery.

Having to roll the bones to keep your concentration when an arrow feathers you from out of the blue, or a dragon reaches out 20ft to maul you is perfectly fine. The Magus is not in control of those situations. But when he steps up to an opponent and starts slinging spells and steel, the very basis of his entire existence, incompetence is not an option. To me, this would be like requiring a Fighter to make a Dex check every time he is hit or drop his sword.

Having something like this come online at an appropriate level could alleviate many issues and provide the magus a unique option that is well within his niche. And really, it's unique options like this, ones that don't break the game, that make people stick with a class.

[Adam Meyers]

Technician Responses

"For the Technician Improved Firearm Invention, does explosive rounds deal half damage dealt or half weapon damage dice in the radius? Eg. if you have Mechanical Savant do you deal 1/4 BAB damage in the radius?"

It is half damage, so upgrades like Mechanical Savant and such would apply.

"For the Independent Invention with the Suit improvement, what exactly can you use of your own abilities while inside the suit - skills, gadgets, other inventions?"

You can use any of your own powers from within the suit; in essence, you can act as normal (except move, since that would leave the suit), or you can spend those actions piloting. In essence, unless the suit is covered, the cockpit is open air and you can fire a gun, throw a gadget, or whatever else you would like to do, assuming you can reach the target from your perch.

Comment that was forwarded to me but I can't seem to find the source in my quick searches: "How does Aided Flight taken twice interact with the Athletics Sphere?"

It means you can apply (mobility) talents to that movement, and you can use talents like Diving strike with your movement, or use Wall Jump to make a swift action jump as if the aided flight was just a normal jump.

@Quarian Rex's Comments:

Those are some good ideas. I'll have to think about the implications of them as well as how exactly they would be implemented, but I appreciate the post.

Craftsman's Insight, Forger's Insight, and Greater Craftsman were intended to be magical (you know, in case you don't have a blacksmith in the party); between magic, improved items, and the technology guide there are so many systems for augmenting items that I prefer to keep them separate yet accessible as needed. That being said, if we do open up permanent inventions, those would still be Ex, including the independent inventions.

Those notes on Unethical Science sound appropriate to add, yeah.

[Quarian Rex]

@Quarian Rex's Comments:

Those are some good ideas. I'll have to think about the implications of them as well as how exactly they would be implemented, but I appreciate the post.

Craftsman's Insight, Forger's Insight, and Greater Craftsman were intended to be magical (you know, in case you don't have a blacksmith in the party); between magic, improved items, and the technology guide there are so many systems for augmenting items that I prefer to keep them separate yet accessible as needed. That being said, if we do open up permanent inventions, those would still be Ex, including the independent inventions.

Those notes on Unethical Science sound appropriate to add, yeah.

Thanks for having a look. In an attempt to nudge you, I would like to point that technology, by its very nature, lends itself very well to proliferation. Adding the option to do so when the Technician acquires the ability make and distribute magic items is quite thematically appropriate. The cat's already out of the bag with Autonomous Creations (and for the love of the babby jebus don't think that this is a request to put the cat back in the bag!) since I think that would have the greatest potential impact on the game, the rest is just filling in the middle-ground. That, and it gets away from the appearance that technological Inventions are somehow soulbound to their creator. That fits less well.

Even keeping the creation cost at 500 gp per improvement (as per Autonomous Creations), while costly (this is equivalent to a 1,000 gp base cost magic item, one that comes with penalties to its use), is acceptable. One of the key draws when playing any kind of 'maker' class (and this is one of the best maker classes I have encountered) is seeing what you have made get used. Seeing the final battle of the campaign between warring armies be turned (at staggeringly great expense) due to the king's 1st rifleman regiment and their shiny new railguns is something that should not be denied. The fact that you have a system set up where an attempt to abuse this by arming everyone with Integrated Shield/Powerful Load/Pressurized Shot/Speed Lever/Enhanced Reliability/Explosive Round/Railguns would only result in a bloated monstrosity incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn (even with a touch attack!), yet can still be made, is uniquely well balanced and a testament to a solid design philosophy.

*nudge*

Also, any thoughts on adding a Trait that would allow a character to ignore one Improvement for the purposes of penalties when using an Invention? Perhaps call it Technophile, or Early Adopter, or The Igor? I think that there should be some widely accessible option to represent a society that has embraced this sort of thing.

[A.J.Gibson]

For the errata: 'breath' instead of 'breathe' in 3 places.

[arkangel111]

In regards to prodigy...

How many links do you actually think an average prodigy will get?

Rnd 1 - some form of standard action to get the opener for 1
Rnd 2 - atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, move for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 3 - regain focus (move?), atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 4 - Repeat rnd 3 or finish for 8-10 links assuming save or AoO
Rnd 5* - Race to next combat or atk

*Most combats are over in 5 rounds if not sooner so rnd 5 is best spent full attack for 1 link and no finisher

It seems to me this class was designed with Leroy Jenkins in mind, since to get any real benefit your best bet is to run through the whole dungeon and make a last stand.

thats 3 std action attacks and 1 finisher, likely being 2-3 spells for rnd 4, since the only real good combat finisher is Arcane Apocalypse. At first I thought doombringer might be decent but realistically its only 3 attacks, which you get at level 15 if you just sit still anyways and it doesn't use up your links, And AA is 2-3 spells in a round WITH a boosted caster level.

This feels, I guess underwhelming... I mean this class kind of forces you to build with vital strike in mind, which isn't that good for a med BAB class. Also, you'll have to fit mobility into the build since you HAVE to move every turn to gain links, which forces AoO's unless you full withdraw but then you short change yourself on links. Not to mention the gaining and losing martial focus constantly for no reason other than gaining links.

I hope I am missing something cause this feels like too much work (tracking) for little to no benefit. None of the links really give that great of benefit until finishers. Of the finishers the only one that is decent is going to be AA, but a dedicated caster probably has quickened and can start that on round 1 while you are waiting till the 4th round to cast 3, putting you ultimately behind by 2 spells. I guess it could be really nice, if it doesn't cost spell points when using the finisher but that is not mentioned so I assume you still have to pay the cost.


*EDIT - Also with the class links and martial spheres missing it is hard to playtest since most of the testing is dependent on the interaction between spheres and class features. Can we get the playtest links returned?

[EldritchWeaver]

In regards to prodigy...

How many links do you actually think an average prodigy will get?

Rnd 1 - some form of standard action to get the opener for 1
Rnd 2 - atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, move for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 3 - regain focus (move?), atk action for 1, expend focus for 1, counting coup for 1
Rnd 4 - Repeat rnd 3 or finish for 8-10 links assuming save or AoO
Rnd 5* - Race to next combat or atk

*Most combats are over in 5 rounds if not sooner so rnd 5 is best spent full attack for 1 link and no finisher

It seems to me this class was designed with Leroy Jenkins in mind, since to get any real benefit your best bet is to run through the whole dungeon and make a last stand.

thats 3 std action attacks and 1 finisher, likely being 2-3 spells for rnd 4, since the only real good combat finisher is Arcane Apocalypse. At first I thought doombringer might be decent but realistically its only 3 attacks, which you get at level 15 if you just sit still anyways and it doesn't use up your links, And AA is 2-3 spells in a round WITH a boosted caster level.

This feels, I guess underwhelming... I mean this class kind of forces you to build with vital strike in mind, which isn't that good for a med BAB class. Also, you'll have to fit mobility into the build since you HAVE to move every turn to gain links, which forces AoO's unless you full withdraw but then you short change yourself on links. Not to mention the gaining and losing martial focus constantly for no reason other than gaining links.

I hope I am missing something cause this feels like too much work (tracking) for little to no benefit. None of the links really give that great of benefit until finishers. Of the finishers the only one that is decent is going to be AA, but a dedicated caster probably has quickened and can start that on round 1 while you are waiting till the 4th round to cast 3, putting you ultimately behind by 2 spells. I guess it could be really nice, if it doesn't cost spell points when using the finisher but that is not mentioned so I assume you still have to pay the cost.


*EDIT - Also with the class links and martial spheres missing it is hard to playtest since most of the testing is dependent on the interaction between spheres and class features. Can we get the playtest links returned?

I think there are more openers and links available than you mention here, but yes, it seems tricky to get enough links for the really good stuff. I'm going to play a prodigy tomorrow, so I'll see how useful he'll be. There are talents which reduce the chance of AoOs: Mobility and Moving Target (if taken twice). Admittedly, I'm not sure which route is better, if you can't get all of them.

Also playtest docs can be found here: *removed because I was being asked to*. Just be aware that those are different enough compared to the current PDF (which still gets another revision), so those docs aren't that useful. You might want to wait until the wiki adds the current stuff at least, or just to buy the book. ;)

Edit:

Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?

[arkangel111]

Can't bring myself to buy a book just to playtest. I love spheres of power but I'm not impressed with might so far. Granted I only got a brief glimpse, most of it seemed to complicate things more than necessary imo.
I'm still leaning towards PoW for martials and SoP for casters. But like I said I haven't had a good look at it either. Hopefully they'll still be playtesting this when SoM makes it online.

[digiman619]

Can't bring myself to buy a book just to playtest. I love spheres of power but I'm not impressed with might so far. Granted I only got a brief glimpse, most of it seemed to complicate things more than necessary imo.
I'm still leaning towards PoW for martials and SoP for casters. But like I said I haven't had a good look at it either. Hopefully they'll still be playtesting this when SoM makes it online.

Well, the spheres of power wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spheres-of-might) is puting the details up there, hopefully they should have everything up by Monday.

[Sam C.]

Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?


This does not allow you to reach any space you would not normally be able to reach with associate movement modes you posses.

Most people cannot walk through walls, so I would assume not.

[Wartex1]

It just depends on what the wall is made of :smalltongue:

[Galacktic]

But if you combine it with Unstoppable, the sky (and your skull) are the limit!

[RedMop]

Some questions.

Q1: Guardian Sphere and Massive Damage - with Greater Delayed Damage taken twice, it is 5x level. With poor HP rolling, it is possible to have more than 50% of your total HPs in the delayed damage pool. When does the Massive Damage check happen? If I am hit 5 times for 10 damage, and I can handle taking 50 in my delayed damage pool, do I have to deal with Massive Damage when I apply the damage to my real HPs? It seems more clear that by taking a single 50 point hit, I'd need to deal with Massive Damage right now, instead of at the end of my turn, though I'm not certain this is correct.

Q2: Scholar Animal Training, Large - Exactly what abilities of the familiar do I keep? Which BAB/Saves/HPs/Skills do I use? Does the natural armor stack? Can I still apply familiar archetypes to the critter?

[RedMop]

Also, Page 194, Butcher blends in with the green splotches at the top. Maybe a different color is needed there.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I really want to say how much I dislike the font used for sphere/talent names. I have multiple times read the IC as K instead. It's the C in particular that I hate, though I'm no fan of the O either. I realize it's probably way too late to change it now, but I think it was a serious mistake that honestly impedes readability of the product.

[Mehangel]

I really want to say how much I dislike the font used for sphere/talent names. I have multiple times read the IC as K instead. It's the C in particular that I hate, though I'm no fan of the O either. I realize it's probably way too late to change it now, but I think it was a serious mistake that honestly impedes readability of the product.

I actually thought that it was funny as I also misread a bunch of Open Hand talents as being: Spinning Heel KKK, KKK-Off, Snap KKK, etc.

[digiman619]

Why does Monk Weapon Training care about Flurry of Blows/Brawler's Flurry when the monk and brawler archetypes trade them away?

[RedMop]

Why does Monk Weapon Training care about Flurry of Blows/Brawler's Flurry when the monk and brawler archetypes trade them away?

You don't need the archetype to use the spheres. You can just spend feats.

[digiman619]

You don't need the archetype to use the spheres. You can just spend feats.

I keep forgetting that is a thing...

[Ssalarn]

Q2: Scholar Animal Training, Large - Exactly what abilities of the familiar do I keep? Which BAB/Saves/HPs/Skills do I use? Does the natural armor stack? Can I still apply familiar archetypes to the critter?

Wherever you have overlap, use whichever stats are most advantageous. You can take both familiar and animal companion archetypes.

If Paizo answers one of the FAQ requests regarding the shaman's ability to gain a combo familiar/animal companion, that ruling would override this one.

[RedMop]

Wherever you have overlap, use whichever stats are most advantageous. You can take both familiar and animal companion archetypes.

If Paizo answers one of the FAQ requests regarding the shaman's ability to gain a combo familiar/animal companion, that ruling would override this one.

Can that be added to the animal training description?

[AlienFromBeyond]

Probably got caught in a sweep that was being done to normalize bonus types. We use set bonus types to limit stacking and preserve the math framework of the game and system; in SoM competence represents the bonus type we felt was the best fit for martial, well, competence, as well as preventing those abilities from excessively stacking with other options and further distorting the math of the skill system since it gets used heavily in our talents. Anyways, I'll add that to the list so it works as intended.
What about the competence bonuses in other places? For example, why does Iron Grip in Wrestling give a competence bonus instead of untyped like its associated feat, Improved Grapple? It just makes taking the talents a worse option than the actual feats if you've got some other source of competence bonuses, and I thought talents were supposed to always be at least as good, if not better, than feats. They don't even start out as strong, and pretty much everyone who would want to take a talent with an associated feat of Improved X will also want the talent that is associated with Greater X, so the bonus doesn't even catch up when comparing the two talents vs the two feats.

[EldritchWeaver]

I think there are more openers and links available than you mention here, but yes, it seems tricky to get enough links for the really good stuff. I'm going to play a prodigy tomorrow, so I'll see how useful he'll be. There are talents which reduce the chance of AoOs: Mobility and Moving Target (if taken twice). Admittedly, I'm not sure which route is better, if you can't get all of them.

Actually, I missed that can create more than one link per round, if you chose the right things and everything went well, you can gain 3 links per round. And without wasting actions to get a link, although I can see myself that doing that, if you really have nothing else to do.


Regarding Flash Step: Can you actually teleport through a window? Through a wall?


Most people cannot walk through walls, so I would assume not.

Maybe I should clarify. Does the movement mode actually require that in theory you can use it from your current point of space with your respective movement speed to get to the target space within a move action?

If not, then you could go to a floating platform, because land movement supports staying on the platform. If not, you could walk the long route around the house to enter the room. Personally, I don't see why those restrictions have to be there (aside from range). Warp doesn't care for this at all. And there is a PoW maneuver equivalent for this.

Q4: The I Will Come talent states that you are exhausted after using it. Can you remove the condition as usual or are you forced to wait the time stated?

[digiman619]

For those interested, the Spheres of Power wiki now has the Spheres of Might rules on it (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spheres-of-might).

[exelsisxax]

For those interested, the Spheres of Power wiki now has the Spheres of Might rules on it (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/spheres-of-might).

All the orange links fooled me, but they indeed go to real pages now.

[Wartex1]

I have a question about the Barrage Sphere.

The text for the Barrage Sphere says:

"Beginning at 6 base attack bonus, you may expend your martial focus to make an additional extra attack, increasing the penalty to all your attacks from -2 to -4. For every 5 points of base attack bonus you possess, you may increase this penalty by an additional -2 to make an additional extra attack."

Is it supposed to say for every additional 5 points of base attack bonus, or just every 5? And (I think this is implied, but I'm not entirely sure) the extra attacks from BAB require expending Martial Focus, right? Otherwise, it feels that it makes regular attack actions strictly better than Full Attacks for little to no investment, but with requiring the expense of martial focus, it seems more balanced, so I believe that's the intention.

On a similar note, Mobile Focus seems strictly better than Focusing Reload for most ranged weapon users, and Perfect Shot makes little sense, especially when combined with Improved Precise Shot. Somehow, you get more accurate when firing at someone in cover than when you're not? I'd recommend making it closer to Improved Precise Shot in function and making IPS the Associated Feat for the talent.

[digiman619]

All the orange links fooled me, but they indeed go to real pages now.

Yeah, that sylistic choice made it difficult to determine what was and wasn't up yet over the last few days. Now that it's all up, however, you can tell at a glance which system a given thing is for. Makes me wonder what they'll do when Champions of the Spheres comes out. Green, perhaps?

[stack]

Actually, I missed that can create more than one link per round, if you chose the right things and everything went well, you can gain 3 links per round. And without wasting actions to get a link, although I can see myself that doing that, if you really have nothing else to do.





Maybe I should clarify. Does the movement mode actually require that in theory you can use it from your current point of space with your respective movement speed to get to the target space within a move action?

If not, then you could go to a floating platform, because land movement supports staying on the platform. If not, you could walk the long route around the house to enter the room. Personally, I don't see why those restrictions have to be there (aside from range). Warp doesn't care for this at all. And there is a PoW maneuver equivalent for this.

Q4: The I Will Come talent states that you are exhausted after using it. Can you remove the condition as usual or are you forced to wait the time stated?

Flash step is meant to get you where you could go with your normal movement (move, charge, withdraw, run, whatever), just without passing through the intervening spaces.

A4: The exhausted condition can be removed as normal, nothing prevents it.

[Cybershark]

Now that the Spheres of Might stuff is up on a wiki I can reference it a lot more easily. Was thinking up a fencing-focused Swashbuckler build when I realized: why does Swashbuckler not get the Fencing sphere + Fencing Parry and Riposte (or just the Fencing Sphere P/R talent as a standalone, anyhow) as a replacement for Swashbuckler Parry/Riposte?

Fencing Parry/Riposte requires martial focus, makes you spend an AoO to block an attack, but at +5 BaB (Swashbuckler 5), allows expenditure of martial focus to make an attack against a target who attacked you.

Swashbuckler Parry/Riposte is pretty much identical, except it requires an IMMEDIATE ACTION to make the riposte: in the world of Spheres of Might, an Immediate Action is REALLY valuable as a lot of real nice things key off it or the swift action, and it feels like it chokes the Swashbuckler harder on their swift action.

Edit: second question, I know there's a shield focus replacer, but why not a weapon focus replacer? I'm tempted to houserule discipline talents as counting as the Weapon Focus feat for being prereqs (but not granting the +1).

[Ssalarn]

Edit: second question, I know there's a shield focus replacer, but why not a weapon focus replacer? I'm tempted to houserule discipline talents as counting as the Weapon Focus feat for being prereqs (but not granting the +1).

By and large we avoided adding flat accuracy boosters to the talents, or talents that replaced prereq-free or prereq-light feats unless those feats were absolutely necessary to a combat style. Weapon Focus is both easily accessible and used as a gate on a number of class features like the warpriest's sacred weapon, so replicating it as a talent didn't make sense.


[...]I thought talents were supposed to always be at least as good, if not better, than feats. They don't even start out as strong, and pretty much everyone who would want to take a talent with an associated feat of Improved X will also want the talent that is associated with Greater X, so the bonus doesn't even catch up when comparing the two talents vs the two feats.

There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang. Our focus was on making talents that added mobility, versatility, and enabled builds and concepts right from level one. We chose to do that while preserving the basic math framework of the game and only making meaningful escalations or adjustments in areas where the math breaks down, like when significant size modifiers start getting applied to CMB/CMD. Part of preserving that framework involves consistency on our end when it comes to assigning bonus types.

[digiman619]

The paragon archetype's Divine Defense reads
"Whenever a paragon challenges a foe, that foe does not gain an attack bonus against the paragon. At 6th level and every six levels afterwards, the paragon gains a +1 bonus to their AC against attacks made by creatures whom they have challenged."
Does that mean it's a straight die roll vs AC? Because it's rather easy to get your AC to be 20 or higher, and that would make everything other than natural 20's miss. Sure, it's only against foes with an opposite alignment, but that seems really easy to exploit; I'd love to be a Good Paragon in a Wrath of the Righteous game or an Evil one in a Way of the Wicked game, for instance.

[Ssalarn]

The paragon archetype's Divine Defense reads
Does that mean it's a straight die roll vs AC? Because it's rather easy to get your AC to be 20 or higher, and that would make everything other than natural 20's miss. Sure, it's only against foes with an opposite alignment, but that seems really easy to exploit; I'd love to be a Good Paragon in a Wrath of the Righteous game or an Evil one in a Way of the Wicked game, for instance.


I'm fairly certain that that is only supposed to negate the +2 bonus a foe gets against you when you challenge them, but I kicked it over to Ehn for clarification since Sentinel is his baby.

[Wartex1]

I'm gonna reiterate on Perfect Shot having some weird behavior. As written, as long as the target is in cover, you roll twice and take the better result. Combined with Improved Precise Shot, which negates penalties granted by cover, it actually makes you more accurate when firing on someone in cover than when firing on someone out on the open, which is bizarre. I'd suggest changing it to emulate Improved Precise Shot instead so they don't stack weirdly.

[Cybershark]

By and large we avoided adding flat accuracy boosters to the talents, or talents that replaced prereq-free or prereq-light feats unless those feats were absolutely necessary to a combat style. Weapon Focus is both easily accessible and used as a gate on a number of class features like the warpriest's sacred weapon, so replicating it as a talent didn't make sense.



There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang.

By that logic, why ISN'T Weapon Focus folded in as an associated feat for discipline talents? A large number of combat-style enabling feats (weapon of the chosen, various [Weapon] Grace feats, Thunder and Fang, numerous Divine Fighting Techniques, etc..) require Weapon Focus. Having it be the associated feat for disipline talents wouldn't break anything: if anything it will allow builds to get off the ground even faster, as now a build won't have to take weapon focus and can instead focus (haha) on acquiring the feat they need to use their preferred combat style.

I know there's a Dual-Wield talent that applies feats from one weapon to the other weapon, but that still doesn't apply to a build that wants to be a classic Switch-Hitter (a Bushido training-using Samurai, or the classic longsword+longbow ranger?) Or even just switching between two similar weapons while not being an Armiger (similar to Geralt of Rivia, with two distinct swords that would likely fall into the same discipline talent, but not the same kind of swords). There are a number of combat styles (and kinds of warriors, too) that focus on using two or more weapons while not necessarily being Two-Weapon Fighting. Knights carried lances, which they were expected to be skilled with, but they were also expected to be proficient swordsmen. Samurai are associated with the katana, but made just as much use of the naginata, bow, and gun. Plenty of cowboys were just as good with a knife as they were with a rifle. Modern infantrymen are trained in rifle, pistol, and hand-to-hand combat. Ancient Spartans and hoplites had shields, Spears, and the ever popular gladius. Most professional fighters/warriors aren't expected to only be good with one kind of weapon, but multiple.

Thunder and Fang is especially egregious, as it requires Weapon Focus in the klar and the earthbreaker along with Two-Weapon Fighting (which the Dual-Wield sphere, strangely, doesn't count as!). At the very earliest, on a class that doesn't get any bonus feats (barbarian, for instance), a character forgoing power attack and any other feats will acquire it by 7th level. A human will have it by 5th. Taking Power attack in order to keep damage up will delay it by two levels (to 9th/7th, respectively.)

By rolling Weapon Focus into discipline talents, it cuts at least four levels out of the equation, enabling the build to get online far sooner than otherwise would happen (even if you don't get the +1s from Weapon Focus, which is a small loss). I do think that would align with your goal of "more builds online, sooner." Those are my two cents, anyhow.

[AlienFromBeyond]

There was no goal to make talents better than feats on an individual basis (Legendary Talents excluded, of course). In fact, one of the reasons that feats like Power Attack aren't emulated in the talents is because they're already presented at a reasonable cost as feats. The big thing we dealt with is that not all feats are created equal; some feats are really good, other feats are buried behind prereqs that make them unattainable, and other feats are so situational that it's hard to justify spending one of what might be only 10 (or fewer if you're never going to go past 12th level or so) feats your character will ever get on them. So a talent should generally be about the equivalent of a decent, concept enabling feat like Arcane Armor Training, maybe a bit better than a "I'm taking this because I have to" prereq kind of feat like Combat Expertise, but not quite as good individually as a solid prereq-heavy feat like Thunder and Fang. Our focus was on making talents that added mobility, versatility, and enabled builds and concepts right from level one. We chose to do that while preserving the basic math framework of the game and only making meaningful escalations or adjustments in areas where the math breaks down, like when significant size modifiers start getting applied to CMB/CMD. Part of preserving that framework involves consistency on our end when it comes to assigning bonus types.
So basically it's considered acceptable if a player would choose to stick with the actual feat over the associated talent in certain circumstances? I find that a bit strange, but acceptable. Thank you for the explanation.

[RedMop]

Some questions.

Q1: Guardian Sphere and Massive Damage - with Greater Delayed Damage taken twice, it is 5x level. With poor HP rolling, it is possible to have more than 50% of your total HPs in the delayed damage pool. When does the Massive Damage check happen? If I am hit 5 times for 10 damage, and I can handle taking 50 in my delayed damage pool, do I have to deal with Massive Damage when I apply the damage to my real HPs? It seems more clear that by taking a single 50 point hit, I'd need to deal with Massive Damage right now, instead of at the end of my turn, though I'm not certain this is correct.

Bump. Anyone?

[Cybershark]

Bump. Anyone?

Not one of the Devs, but if you DELAY the damage, then logically the massive damage check should only happen when you actually TAKE the damage: by moving the hit to your delayed damage pool, it hasn't actually been removed from your hit points until the end of your turn, wherein the damage is moved back to your ACTUAL hitpoints. Just my two cents.

[Ssalarn]

Not one of the Devs, but if you DELAY the damage, then logically the massive damage check should only happen when you actually TAKE the damage: by moving the hit to your delayed damage pool, it hasn't actually been removed from your hit points until the end of your turn, wherein the damage is moved back to your ACTUAL hitpoints. Just my two cents.

That's my take on it, yeah.

[stack]

Bump. Anyone?

Didn't consider the massive damage rules in writing the ability as I dont recall ever seeing them used, so they are easy to forget.

Damage directed to the pool wouldn't count toward massive damage and I am inclined to say that damage coming out of the pool just doesn't trigger massive damage rules.

[Kaouse]

Another question that might have been answered before, but:

If you obtain a talent that has an associated feat, do you count as also having that feat's prerequisites? For example, if I take the Deathless talent from the Beserker Sphere (Associated Feat: Diehard), do I still need to take Endurance if I want to grab a feat like Stalwart or Deathless Initiate? Or for another example, if I had Greater Grapple from the Wrestling Sphere, do I still need to take Improved Grapple if I also wanted to take Rapid Grappler?

[Mithril Leaf]

Any update on getting the Sage and Troubadour playtest back up?

[Mehangel]

Another question that might have been answered before, but:

If you obtain a talent that has an associated feat, do you count as also having that feat's prerequisites? For example, if I take the Deathless talent from the Beserker Sphere (Associated Feat: Diehard), do I still need to take Endurance if I want to grab a feat like Stalwart or Deathless Initiate? Or for another example, if I had Greater Grapple from the Wrestling Sphere, do I still need to take Improved Grapple if I also wanted to take Rapid Grappler?


Some spheres and talents overlap the function of existing feats. Such a feat is listed in the talent as an associated feat. Possessing the sphere or talent counts as possessing the feat for the purposes of meeting prerequisites and for abilities that modify the feat’s function (such as a mythic version of the feat). Unless noted, talents do not stack with their associated feats. Any time you would gain an associated feat, you may instead choose to gain the sphere or talent it is associated with. You must still meet the prerequisites for a talent gained this way, such as possessing the base sphere.

Does that answer your question?

[RedMop]

Didn't consider the massive damage rules in writing the ability as I dont recall ever seeing them used, so they are easy to forget.

Damage directed to the pool wouldn't count toward massive damage and I am inclined to say that damage coming out of the pool just doesn't trigger massive damage rules.

Re: Guardian Massive Damage


You gain a delayed damage pool equal to your 3 x your base attack bonus. When you receive damage, as part of taking the damage you may redirect all or part of it to your delayed damage pool. Apply damage reduction and resistance before redirecting the damage. You may not redirect damage that would exceed the maximum capacity of the damage pool. Your delayed damage pool empties at the end of your turn each round, inflicting any damage stored in the pool on you, bypassing any damage reduction or resistance you possess and resetting to 0. Any additional effects of the attack, such as poison, are still incurred immediately even if the entire damage of the attack is redirected to the delayed damage pool. Any healing you receive in excess of your maximum hp automatically reduces the amount of damage in your delayed damage pool.

Might I suggest putting some text in there for that along the lines of reduces your current hit point total but it isn't considered damage. This could also interfere with concentration checks for 1 round casting spells.

[Kaouse]

Does that answer your question?

No, not particularly.

[Cybershark]

I had a huge post typed up, but because of a bug it got lost.

Anyways, I finally got the chance to read Prodigy. I'll give a TL;DR summary of the original post: it's good, but needs some work. There's some vague language around openers, some of which read as if they have a similar effect to talents and grant new abilities (Fencing's Link being a feint as a move action, does it grant the benefits of Fast Feint, or does it REQUIRE Fast Feint?). It isn't specified whether imbuements require concentration (i.e Enhancement) or not. I'll either edit this post or make a new one when I go through the Prodigy again and write down all the stuff I saw.

[torrasque666]

Quick question due to me viewing it on the wiki and not during the playtest, but can the Extra Combat Talent feat be used to gain access to spheres without being a sphere using class?

[Sam C.]

Quick question due to me viewing it on the wiki and not during the playtest, but can the Extra Combat Talent feat be used to gain access to spheres without being a sphere using class?

Yes. The word "extra" does throw people off, but the feat has no prerequisites.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Does that answer your question?
I'm pretty sure they meant "Do associated feats also count as the prereqs for the feat they count as for the purposes of prereqs?" Because if not, you still need to take all those feats to qualify in several cases iirc.

[Tariyan Draegr]

Yes. The word "extra" does throw people off, but the feat has no prerequisites.

Actually what the feat says is that you gain an extra combat talent from a sphere you already have access too, so technically, no you can't use it to gain access to spheres

[digiman619]

Actually what the feat says is that you gain an extra combat talent from a sphere you already have access too, so technically, no you can't use it to gain access to spheres
It does "an additional sphere or talent from a sphere you possess", though the word " additional" does imply that you must already have one. Perhaps wording it as "If you possess no combat talents, you gain one combat sphere of your choice. Otherwise...", or a note saying "Note: You may take this feat even if you possess no combat talents".

[Sam C.]

It does "an additional sphere or talent from a sphere you possess", though the word " additional" does imply that you must already have one. Perhaps wording it as "If you possess no combat talents, you gain one combat sphere of your choice. Otherwise...", or a note saying "Note: You may take this feat even if you possess no combat talents".

Considering that the question of whether someone without combat training can take Extra Combat Talent has come up multiple times, this would probably be a good idea.

On another note, it occurs to me that the Warrior of Blind Faith Antipaladin/Paladin archetype isn't really needed anymore. The universal rule allowing Low and Mid-Casters to exchange their casting for combat talents, using their casting ability modifier as their practitioner modifier, makes the archetype rather redundant. The "special" section in the Blood-Soaked Demon and Dirt Spattered Angel archetypes could be changed to read something like "A character with this archetype may also choose to exchange their spells class feature for additional combat talents, becoming an expert practitioner instead of a proficient practitioner."

[Kaouse]

While I await the answer to my associated feat question, I kinda also want some more clarification on this version of Flyby Attack:



Flyby Attack (Monster)*

This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.

Emphasis mine.

The bolded portions seem to suggest that you can take two standard actions during a round in which you use Flyby Attack. Even the restriction seems to suggest that you would still otherwise have access to the ability to make a move action after using Flyby Attack. Is this supposed to be the case, or do you only ever get a single standard action in between a move action? What exactly was the purpose of the rewrite?