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Quietus
2007-07-27, 09:32 PM
Alright, so I should start off by saying : Thank you, Fax. You triggered this thought in my mind, and I appreciate it.

The quote that triggered this :

Rogue 5/Spellthief 1/Assassin 1/Unseen Seer 10/Uncanny Trickster 3, and take the Master Spellthief feat.

Spellthief is in C. Adventurer, Unseen Seer is in C. Mage, and Uncanny Trickster is in C. Scoundrel. Focus the Unseen Seer "+1 spellcasting" on Assassin and Uncanny Trickster "+1 existing" on Rogue.

You'll end up with BAB +13, +10d6 Sneak Attack, full Assassin casting, and the ability to steal 7th level spells (via Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat). It's not a bad build. I have better, but you're not allowed ToB and it's really really early late.

Now, I've played on this a bit. I like the Spellthief idea. I want the rogue and the sneak attack. But I'd also like to get full Assassin levels, because I think that since I’m starting with a 16 int, increasing to at least 20 from levels, plus a +6 headband, that’s a DC 28 save on my death attack. That isn’t all that shabby, really, when a comparable wizard could have DC 27 on his 9th level spells (10+9+8). With all five stat increases and a +5 tome, I could push the DC up to 31, while the Wizard’s packing 30 on his ninth level spells. People say Death Attack is weak, but considering it’s the equivalent of a Finger of Death heightened to 10th, it isn’t shabby.

Anyway. The build I’m looking at now is :

Rog3/Spellthief2, followed by Assassin10. Five more after this to play with.

Feats : Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Practiced Spellcaster, Master Spellthief, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, two more.

In those 15 levels, I pick up 8d6 sneak attack, 10 BAB, the ability to steal level 6 spells, and full assassin casting, plus I have two feats and five levels to play with. So far, so good – I even pick up some minor Detect Magic abilities, though my big 10 cha won’t help with that, along with +1 to saves vs spells, and the whopping ability to steal CL 1 spell effects currently in place – unless I can convince my DM to let Master Spellthief work for that.

Now all I need to do is look at options for those top few levels. I’d prefer at least 4 more arcane caster levels up there to get 8th level spell stealing, and I’d also like to get some more sneak attack. Oh, and good skills, and good BAB. No, I don’t ask for much. One possibility is looking at Arcane Trickster; that would give me plenty of what I’m asking for. 10d6 sneak attack, 8th level spell stealing, full caster level advancement (not that I gain anything but durations from that), but only 12 BAB total. Not so great for a primarily fighter-style class. I could also make it Assassin9/Arcane Trickster6, for an extra 1d6 sneak attack, and 1 point higher fort/will saves, at the cost of 1 DC lower death attack – not a bad trade off.

So, what I’m looking for, I suppose, is this : other suggestions for those last 5 levels, and a general review of my first 15 level advancement – that’s probably the more important, the character’s level 1 now.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-27, 09:48 PM
Ironically, since you can't cast Mage Hand, you don't qualify for Arcane Trickster. Otherwise, it'd be a solid choice.

There are other PrCs that advance Death Attack (Telflammar Shadowlord, Black Flame Zealot and some others, IIRC), and that's what I recommend looking into.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-07-27, 09:51 PM
There's a feat in the Complete Arcane that lets you cast Mage Hand as an SLA once per day; it can technically get you into Arcane Trickster.

As for the Assassin, it's the "study them for three rounds" thing that really kills Death Attack's utility.

Quietus
2007-07-27, 09:59 PM
Ironically, since you can't cast Mage Hand, you don't qualify for Arcane Trickster. Otherwise, it'd be a solid choice.

There are other PrCs that advance Death Attack (Telflammar Shadowlord, Black Flame Zealot and some others, IIRC), and that's what I recommend looking into.

Black flame zealot really doesn't fit this character, as he's got no divine casting, unfortunately. I can't remember where the Shadowlord is from, which book is that?

And technically, I CAN cast mage hand, if I steal it from someone... or if I go up to Spellthief4, I can cast it from there, I suppose. Kinda defeats the purpose, though.


There's a feat in the Complete Arcane that lets you cast Mage Hand as an SLA once per day; it can technically get you into Arcane Trickster.

As for the Assassin, it's the "study them for three rounds" thing that really kills Death Attack's utility.

Aha! That'll work; Replace Practiced Spellcaster with that, most likely. It's only really there for durations anyhow. And studying them for three rounds isn't too tough when I've got hide in plain sight and massive Hide mods.

Does my actual caster level override the "casts these spells as a first level caster" in the feat description? I'm assuming not, but...

Fax Celestis
2007-07-27, 10:17 PM
Black flame zealot really doesn't fit this character, as he's got no divine casting, unfortunately. I can't remember where the Shadowlord is from, which book is that?

And technically, I CAN cast mage hand, if I steal it from someone... or if I go up to Spellthief4, I can cast it from there, I suppose. Kinda defeats the purpose, though.

I actually asked that question to Custserv, and unfortunately, you cannot use any of the Spellthief's thievery to qualify for anything--otherwise you could use Steal SLA to qualify for Warlock PrCs, among other things. I'm a bit glad on the ruling here, as it means my favorite class isn't Teh Brokenz.

Quietus
2007-07-27, 10:27 PM
I actually asked that question to Custserv, and unfortunately, you cannot use any of the Spellthief's thievery to qualify for anything--otherwise you could use Steal SLA to qualify for Warlock PrCs, among other things. I'm a bit glad on the ruling here, as it means my favorite class isn't Teh Brokenz.

Aye - which just means I need to either give up Practiced Spellcaster (an inconvenience, having Jump at an immediate +20 would be hilarious), or find another PrC. I considered Abjurant Champion; It'd give me full caster level progression and full BAB, but the skills are lacking and the class abilities just aren't all that spectacular for this build. I could, possibly, use the Eldritch Knight, but again, I'm lacking skills, and no sneak attack. Oh, and that little "proficient with all martial weapons" jazz.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-27, 10:34 PM
Now, a question: why're you taking those rogue levels? Why not just go Spellthief 5 instead of Rogue 3/Spellthief 2?

Also, you could probably take Legacy Champion and/or Uncanny Trickster for their "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" feature to stack onto your Death Attack DC.

Quietus
2007-07-27, 10:48 PM
Now, a question: why're you taking those rogue levels? Why not just go Spellthief 5 instead of Rogue 3/Spellthief 2?

Also, you could probably take Legacy Champion and/or Uncanny Trickster for their "+1 Level of Existing Class Features" feature to stack onto your Death Attack DC.

I was thinking about the Uncanny Trickster for that very reason. That'd also count as two "arcane caster levels" for my Spellthief advancement, 1d6 extra sneak attack (theoretically), and +2 assassin DC. I could even top it out with Unseen Seer2 for 8th level spell stealing, +1 bonus CL to my divinations (the penalty won't hurt, I'm already well beyond normal max assassin caster level), and Still Spell. My BAB would still be 12 or 13, but I'm not so worried about that fourth iterative attack as I was before.

I've got those levels of Rogue in there because this rogue is intended to be more of a combat-focussed character... as I mentioned in the OP, he's more of a "blade in the dark". The arcane caster bit only came in when I realized how... well, abusable, Master Spellthief is. A single level (or two, now) of Spellthief, and you can steal some pretty obscene stuff, which when I went back and thought about it, was a really, REALLY cool idea to add to this guy. Plus it'll be nice to have the option, when my cleric buddy falls in battle, to finish off the fight, steal a Cure Light he has prepared, and use it on him.

Plus, I'm a giant skill point wh... connaisseur. *Coughs* Those 8 skills per level ... I loves them. I wants them. I could have 16 skills a level and still want more. Besides, if I'm looking at other prestige classes, I'll want to have those extra skills to toss around.


Back to the Unseen Seer, though... if I were to crank up 5 levels of that, I could get an extra 2d6 sneak attack, full arcane caster progression, as well as a capstone of Nondetection at character level. I think Uncanny Trickster3/Unseen Seer2 would be stronger, though.

::Edit:: Don't think you mentioned - Legacy Champion and Telflammar Shadowlord, which books are those?

::Edit2:: Trying to pick out possible options here for skill tricks... I'm thinking :
Listen to This
Acrobatic Backstab
Assume Quirk
Easy Escape
Spot The Weak Spot (Mmm... make that Death Attack count..)

As mentioned, I love my skill points, I'll probably not buy all five... but they do seem useful. Might pick up some later, as part of my Assassin levelling - take those Uncanny Trickster levels early, perhaps.

::Edit3:: Why must they make so many cool Assassin spells? I mean, really... Assassin's Darkness... *Drools*

Draz74
2007-07-28, 02:23 AM
It's probably not quite what you're looking for, but this reminds me of TheLogicNinja's cool old Bladesinger build.

The classic is Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 (full Assassin casting, neat Gish tricks from Bladesinger, great Int synergy).

I wonder, though, if the advent of the Master Spellthief feat doesn't mean you could improve this build by replacing Rogue 2 with Spellthief 2. :smallsmile:

Also, your BAB doesn't have to be as high if you use Wraithstrike (Assassin 2nd level spell) a lot. If you go for this tactic, make sure to have a Lesser Extend Metamagic Rod handy, so your Wraithstrike spells last for 2 rounds each.

Quietus
2007-07-28, 09:49 AM
.... Wraithstrike is available to Assassins?

Excuse me while I go wet myself. In the meantime, which book is it in?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-28, 11:11 AM
.... Wraithstrike is available to Assassins?

Excuse me while I go wet myself. In the meantime, which book is it in?

Spell Compendium, among other places. (CAdv maybe?)

Quietus
2007-07-28, 11:29 AM
Spell Compendium, among other places. (CAdv maybe?)

Awesome, thanks. See what happens when you play with a group that doesn't allow any of the 3.5 stuff (despite using 3.5 rules), then get into a game that does? I'm entirely behind the times! So many awesome Assassin spells in that book... and me with only 4 known/level...