Optimal Caster Level Loss vs. Free Metamagic?

[rgrekejin]

I'm just wondering what the community's thoughts are on how worth it it is to lose caster levels for free metamagic. I've been putting together an arcane caster build for a campaign I play in, and I wanted to do some metamagic without the crippling spell level increases. My first thought was that I would go with an Ultimate Magus based on a Wizard/Beguiler entry with Practiced Spellcaster, so that at 15th level I would have the spells known of a 13th level Wizard and a 8th or 9th level Beguiler (depending on how I handle entering the class), plus the ability to apply any metamagic feat I have to any spell below 5th level 8 times per day for free. Then I stumbled on the excellent Recaster Prc, a 4/5 casting Prc that grants free 5/day Maximize and 5/day Empower (or Extend or whatever, but those two seem like the most useful ones to me), 5/day Sculpt Spell, and 3/day something like Quicken. It occurs to me that I could fit both of those into the build fairly easily, as a Wizard3/Beguiler2/Ultimate Maugs10/Recaster5, and metamagic pretty much every spell I ever cast, but at that point I've lost 3 levels of Wizard casting and am not getting 9th level spells until level 20. Is it worth it? At what point do the returns on being able to metamagic more and more things start to be diminishing?

[Mike Miller]

Although not an answer to all these questions, have you looked into the incantatrix? Tons of metamagic use there

[Beheld]

If you aren't getting free Persist spells, caster level loss is always worse than the free metamagic. If you are getting free Persists, you can afford to lose a level, maybe two. Ultimate Magus allows you to miss only a single Wizard level, so you could be always one level behind as Wizard (AKA, being a Sorcerer) and then also have some deceny Beguiler access as well. If I recall correctly, Ultimate Magus can't Persist because it's based on using another spell slot? and you don't have 6th level slots? If I'm wrong about that and they can Persist, they are definitely worth it, if they can't it's still a viable build, since you give up so very little.

But yeah, if you are losing caster levels to quicken or Maximize, that isn't worth it. Depending on the party, you can usually afford to throw a little bit of power away on something like that though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For Ultimate Magus, enter with an Illumian (Krau/anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM. With Practiced Spellcaster that allows you to put all ten UM levels into Wizard, so you only lose one level of Wizard spellcasting.

Illumians are Humanoid (Human) so with flaws you can even get Able Learner to keep the amazing Beguiler class skill list for your entire career. Also be sure to get the feat Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to spontaneously cast any spell you know of one level higher. That gives you early access to the next level of Beguiler spells and grants spontaneous access to every Wizard spell you've learned, though you'll probably need to have your spellbook open to that page when casting it so it's not very useful in combat.

I'd go with a specialist Conjurer (ban Enchantment and Evocation) with Abrupt Jaunt in PH2 and the Fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Finish the build with Mindbender 1 and Incantatrix 4, be sure to pick up Mindsight from Lords of Madness p126, use the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it, and apply the extra prohibited school from Incantatrix to Beguiler and pick a school that the class doesn't even get any spells from.

Considering the benefits of Able Learner and Versatile Spellcaster, and the inflated caster level since you can apply Arcane Spell Power after Krau and Practiced Spellcaster, I'd say losing just one level of Wizard spellcasting is well worth it.

[rgrekejin]

Although not an answer to all these questions, have you looked into the incantatrix? Tons of metamagic use there

Yes, I have looked at Incantatrix. It's an amazing class for metamagic generally, but it's a terrible fit for my particular campaign. I'm playing in a campaign in which magic items are exceedingly rare, individually made by the DM and attempting to craft them yourself has a high potential to end badly. So acquiring magic items to boost spellcraft and use metamagic spell trigger on is basically impossible. There are also several other oddities of the campaign world that may make a difference to anyone else offering advice - namely that a. teleportation effects have a greater than 50% chance of simply killing the user b. summon spells simply don't work and c. access to other planes requires at least Deity-level magic. So... yeah. Conjuration might make a good banned school here. :smallfrown: I'm taking Collegiate Wizard at 1st level because, since crafting is potentially lethal, scrolls are not a thing one finds very often.


Also be sure to get the feat Versatile Spellcaster, which allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots of the same level to spontaneously cast any spell you know of one level higher. That gives you early access to the next level of Beguiler spells and grants spontaneous access to every Wizard spell you've learned, though you'll probably need to have your spellbook open to that page when casting it so it's not very useful in combat.

Does Versatile Spellcaster really work that way? I mean, I can see it working for Beguiler because of how they know spells, but I wouldn't think you could apply it to Wizard casting at all since it allows you to cast a "spell you know" and Wizards don't really have "spells known" do they?

[ryu]

Yes, I have looked at Incantatrix. It's an amazing class for metamagic generally, but it's a terrible fit for my particular campaign. I'm playing in a campaign in which magic items are exceedingly rare and individually made by the DM and attempting to craft them yourself has a high potential to be end badly. So acquiring magic items to boost spellcraft and use metamagic spell trigger on is basically impossible. There are also several other oddities of the campaign world that may make a difference to anyone else offering advice - namely that a. teleportation effects have a greater than 50% chance of simply killing the user b. summon spells simply don't work and c. access to other planes requires at least Deity-level magic. So... yeah. Conjuration might make a good banned school here. :smallfrown: I'm taking Collegiate Wizard at 1st level, because, since crafting is potentially lethal, scrolls are not a thing one finds very often.



Does Versatile Spellcaster really work that way? I mean, I can see it working for Beguiler because of how they know spells, but I wouldn't think you could apply it to Wizard casting at all since it allows you to cast a "spell you know" and Wizards don't really have "spells known" do they?

ALL spells in a wizard's spellbook are automatically known spells. ALL of them. In fact, that's the basis of the known trick of tatooing spells upon your own flesh if you lose your book. You can also re-scribe said spells in a new book if you can't find your old one/it was destroyed. Wizards are very tenacious as a class. Never forget that.

[Anthrowhale]

Does Versatile Spellcaster really work that way? I mean, I can see it working for Beguiler because of how they know spells, but I wouldn't think you could apply it to Wizard casting at all since it allows you to cast a "spell you know" and Wizards don't really have "spells known" do they?

I think you should ask the DM on this one. "spell you know" may or may not be the same as "spells known" depending on the interpreter. There is unquestionably a sense by which wizards know spells as stated in the class description:


Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells.


Adding to BFs suggestions, if you take Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] then you can use UM to persist spells. And if you take Theurgic Specialist, you'll be able _add_ the caster levels for Beguiler spells to the caster level for all specialist school spells, allowing you to reach caster levels of 30+ at level 20.

Both of those are in Dragon 325. Also of significant note for metamagic is the Tome Dragon (Dragon 343) which has Free Metamagic as a supernatural ability granting reductions of 1, 2, or 3 levels which can be accessed as early as level 7 via Polymorph + Assume Supernatural Ability.

Wrt Incantatrix, have you looked into Item Familiar? If you can get access to any permanent magic item with a usable-by-you magical effect it allows you to effectively double your ranks in a skill.

[rgrekejin]

Adding to BFs suggestions, if you take Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] then you can use UM to persist spells. And if you take Theurgic Specialist, you'll be able _add_ the caster levels for Beguiler spells to the caster level for all specialist school spells, allowing you to reach caster levels of 30+ at level 20.

That brings up another question I'd been meaning to ask - what is the point of having a caster level beyond 20? Is it just to make your spells really hard to dispel and make it easy for you to overcome SR? Most of the spells that have a variable which depends on your level cap at an effective level of 20, it does nothing for your save DCs, and by the time you're high enough level for tricks like this to come into play, durations are generally already long enough that buffing them makes little difference. Is there something I'm missing here?

[Buufreak]

That brings up another question I'd been meaning to ask - what is point of having a caster level beyond 20? Is it just to make your spells really hard to dispel and make it easy for you to overcome SR? Most of the spells that have a variable which depends on your level cap at an effective level of 20, it does nothing for your save DCs, and by the time you're high enough level for tricks like this to come into play, durations are generally already long enough that buffing them makes little difference. Is there something I'm missing here?

Yea, pretty much that. Nothing sucks more than spending your entire turn and a spell slot for the DM to say "nope, SR, it fails" and you are left with bupkis.

[Anthrowhale]

Yea, pretty much that. Nothing sucks more than spending your entire turn and a spell slot for the DM to say "nope, SR, it fails" and you are left with bupkis.

Right, shifting a 50% chance of SR failure to a 0% chance is pretty valuable and that's what 10 extra caster levels does.

The caster level advantage also kicks in early so at 5th level you may be casting at 10th level as long as you take Practice Spellcaster[Beguiler]. At 5th level, there is a big difference between a 5d6 fireball and a 10d6 fireball.

There are also a small number of spells which are devastating if cast at a higher level. The most archetypal one is Holy Word which is a no-save-just-die for level appropriate enemies if you manage to be 10 caster levels ahead at level 14. That's about where you'll be. Holy Word can be accessed via Arcane Disciple.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That brings up another question I'd been meaning to ask - what is point of having a caster level beyond 20? Is it just to make your spells really hard to dispel and make it easy for you to overcome SR? Most of the spells that have a variable which depends on your level cap at an effective level of 20, it does nothing for your save DCs, and by the time you're high enough level for tricks like this to come into play, durations are generally already long enough that buffing them makes little difference. Is there something I'm missing here?

Take the feat Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and get a Banner of the Storm's Eye in MIC or anything else that makes you immune to being stunned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Use that feat to get +1 CL for the spell you're casting and it removes all caster level caps from the spell, and you take 1d6 damage (or get stunned for 1 round if you're not immune to it).

Let's say you're a specialist Conjurer with Theurgic Specialist and Reserves of Strength, at level 15, for Wizard 14 casting and Beguiler 8 casting, with Practiced Spellcaster and Krau.

Wizard caster level is 19 (14 base, +2 Krau but no higher than 15, +4 Arcane Spell Power)
Beguiler caster level is 18 (8 base, +2 Krau, +4 Practiced Spellcaster, +4 Arcane Spell Power)

That gives you a caster level of 37 for Conjuration spells at level 15, and Reserves of Strength increases this by +1. You can get a Ring of Arcane Might and/or an Orange Prism Ioun Stone to increase each of those by one, thus increasing the total by two per item, but that's not even necessary.

Cast any of the 4th level Orb of [Energy] spells with (Rod of) Empower Spell and using UM to add Maximize Spell (and possibly use Quicken or a Circlet of Rapid Casting for True Strike first). That makes a ranged touch attack to deal 19d6+228 damage, which is not reduced if they make their saving throw.

[Douglas]

I'm taking Collegiate Wizard at 1st level, because, since crafting is potentially lethal, scrolls are not a thing one finds very often.
What about spellbooks, and other wizards who might be willing to let you copy from theirs for money?

Collegiate Wizard is a nice feat regardless, but scrolls are hardly the only way to learn spells beyond the free ones for each level.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yes, I have looked at Incantatrix. It's an amazing class for metamagic generally, but it's a terrible fit for my particular campaign. I'm playing in a campaign in which magic items are exceedingly rare, individually made by the DM and attempting to craft them yourself has a high potential to end badly. So acquiring magic items to boost spellcraft and use metamagic spell trigger on is basically impossible.If you're worried about boosting Spellcraft without items (even +stat items?), Loresong (Dr. 335) does a lot of heavy lifting. It adds a competence bonus of 4+[1/2 CL] to a skill of your choice and, of course, is persistable. For instance, let's suppose you want to persist a 4th level spell as a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3. With a modified spell level of 10, the DC is 48. Taking 10, a magic blooded grey elf with Elf Specialist substitution levels, a moth/butterfly familiar, SF: Spellcraft, some K: Arcana ranks, a masterwork tool, persisted Loresong, Heroism cast during buff rounds, and the familiar aiding (or cast Share Talents if the DM says no), provides us with a spellcraft check of 10 + 11 ranks + 6 int + 2 racial + 2 synergy + 8(or more) competence + 2 morale + 4 circumstance + 3 feat + 6 familiar = 54. So it's robust to some instances of the DM saying no, as long as the big stuff like Loresong sticks. Boosting (buffing) caster level with non-item things like Elder Giant Magic, Reserves of Strength (cap breaking or no), Create Magic Tattoo, Persisted Suffer the Flesh, and of course Circle Magic is a good idea in general due to dispels, but it also helps with Loresong.

I also wouldn't worry about Metamagic Spell Trigger. The most interesting ability is Metamagic Effect, right at level 3, which does not directly rely on magic items. You could move onto other PrCs right after that, if you wanted.


Take the feat Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and get a Banner of the Storm's Eye in MIC or anything else that makes you immune to being stunned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). Use that feat to get +1 CL for the spell you're casting and it removes all caster level caps from the spell, and you take 1d6 damage (or get stunned for 1 round if you're not immune to it).Reserves of Strength has two interpretations which, as far as I can tell, are equally valid. "You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell with this feat" could refer to the specific caster level boost (+1 to +3) of the feat - hence, "with this feat." Or, it could allow the caster to ignore level-fixed limits in general. I imagine this DM is going to take the more conservative view of things. This does happen to be good for buff stacks later on, though, as it preserves the paradigm where a dispel DC is far easier to increase than a dispel check.