My Pal died (So I'm making a cat)

[Jack_McSnatch]

My paladin of nonviolence died in the unfortunate way most paladins do. By doing her job and fighting a demon. I don't think anybody is going to do the ress quest, so I've started on my next character and... I'm not sure where to go.

In the vein of this game being kind of about silly characters, I've decided to play an awakened housecat. I rolled 18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 12. Not in that order, but I haven't decided where to go. Our group consists of a newb druid, a newb cleric, (who I'm a bit angry at cause he healed my friggin wisdom damage, rather than my -14 hit points, or my 4 negative levels, but whatever, what's done is done.) a poorly built necromancer who shows up rarely, a warforged scout, and a master swordsman from dandwiki, which is like an initiator, but nowhere near as good.

So my group could USE a damage dealer, but I think we can manage through sheer numbers. What we NEED is someone who can play battlefield control. So far I've thought of either a wizard/psion build, or a jade phoenix mage, but both are more vague concepts than solid playable builds.

I do have a character concept in mind. King is an immortal awakened housecat who thinks he's better than everyone. He's probably going to act wise and sagelike, while also being vain and self centered. I like the thought of him being a martial arts master of some sort, kinda like Yoruichi, seeing as the group is slightly anime-y. Thoughts?

[Inevitability]

Brief question: will your character have the two magical beast HD from being awakened? If so, I suggest playing a Tibbit from Dragon Compendium instead.

[Jack_McSnatch]

No, DM is letting me take class levels instead

[Venger]

then psion is probably a solid choice.

[Vizzerdrix]

You need a silly brute? Tibbit into stoneblessed into goliath barbarian sub levels.

[Uncle Pine]

What level are you? Housecats are Tiny creatures, so if you play as a Shaper (and Metacreativity is quite decent at controlling the battlefield) you can compress and manifest an astral construct power armor around you, or skip the first step altogether if you're at least 9th level and can manifest Large astral constructs.

[Eldariel]

Just be a Wizard. You can then use Summons or Planar Binding or whatever to produce a damage dealer should need arise, while mostly acting through your allies (turns out Haste, Polymorph and company are pretty good for the party's overall damage output). Or just be a Wizard and buff yourself to beat stuff up. Divine Power can give you full BAB and is accessible through Arcane Disciple for instance. Could be fun being a Housecat Wizard beating people up with its claws.

[Jack_McSnatch]

You need a silly brute? Tibbit into stoneblessed into goliath barbarian sub levels.
This sounds absolutely hilarious and I'm gonna look into it.


What level are you? Housecats are Tiny creatures, so if you play as a Shaper (and Metacreativity is quite decent at controlling the battlefield) you can compress and manifest an astral construct power armor around you, or skip the first step altogether if you're at least 9th level and can manifest Large astral constructs.


Just be a Wizard. You can then use Summons or Planar Binding or whatever to produce a damage dealer should need arise, while mostly acting through your allies (turns out Haste, Polymorph and company are pretty good for the party's overall damage output). Or just be a Wizard and buff yourself to beat stuff up. Divine Power can give you full BAB and is accessible through Arcane Disciple for instance. Could be fun being a Housecat Wizard beating people up with its claws.

Actually I was thinking of doing these both at the same time. I'm starting as level 7, so wizard 3, psion 3, cerebramancer 1, and my next 9 levels all in cerebramancer. The druid already does a LOT of summoning, so I don't think I'm gonna clutter the floor even more, but I like the self buffing plan. Specializing seems like the way to go on the wizard side.

[Eldariel]

Actually I was thinking of doing these both at the same time. I'm starting as level 7, so wizard 3, psion 3, cerebramancer 1, and my next 9 levels all in cerebramancer. The druid already does a LOT of summoning, so I don't think I'm gonna clutter the floor even more, but I like the self buffing plan. Specializing seems like the way to go on the wizard side.

It's a nice idea but you'd be lagging behind. Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 1 only gets 2nd level spells and powers. You're still far away from the 4th level spells for self-buffing or otherwise. Thus I'd rather recommend that you either use some fast entry or pick one or the other; the better buff spells tend to come online on level 4 (Polymorph, Divine Power, 1 off +2 Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mage Armor from level 3, etc.) and you'd be 3 levels off with the Wizard/Psion entry at this point. Same with battlefield control incidentally; you'd skip out on all the level 3+ spells and powers, such as Slow, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, Time Hop, Psionic Blast, Telekinetic Thrust, Wall of Ectoplasm, etc. The dual progression classes are generally at their very weakest at this point in the game, when you just get the chance to enter them. If you used some early entry trick to enter as Wizard 3/Psion 1 or Psion 3/Wizard 1, you'd be better off; one level behind in your primary and three in your secondary school. On this level though, I tend to avoid losing those precious caster levels; there's just such a huge difference between the options you have available with each new spell/power tier.

Awakened Cat does have fairly horrid strength at -8. Even with full 18 in the stat, you basically are hitting for nothing. You can get around that by Polymorphing, but that doesn't go with the thematics of being a kung-fu cat. You can always use Weapon Finesse and buff your damage with feats and spells; Arcane Strike and the like. It should be quite interesting to go about.

[Zaq]

Remember that cats don't have thumbs, so you'll need to invest resources into dealing with somatic components if you go Wizard.

[Venger]

Remember that cats don't have thumbs, so you'll need to invest resources into dealing with somatic components if you go Wizard.

just buy gloves of the man. they give you thumbs

besides, we all know somatic components are performed by the elbows

[Inevitability]

This sounds absolutely hilarious and I'm gonna look into it.

If you do, consider being CE (like all cats) and taking two levels in Soulborn. This removes the -8 strength a tibbit would normally suffer when turning into a cat.

[Dagroth]

If you go the Tibbit barbarian route, ask if you can refluff Bear Warrior into "big cat warrior". Tell him you don't want anything mechanically different (you're going to Pounce from Lion Spirit Totem, after all), you just want to turn into a hunting cat instead.

[Venger]

If you go the Tibbit barbarian route, ask if you can refluff Bear Warrior into "big cat warrior". Tell him you don't want anything mechanically different (you're going to Pounce from Lion Spirit Totem, after all), you just want to turn into a hunting cat instead.

That's a cool idea.

[Malroth]

How about Telepath Psion into Thrallherd, you get some crazy old witch to be your "owner" and you just subtly make things heads explode while everybody blames the crazy cat lady for it.

[Azoth]

I will have to do some digging, but I remember having a build for a tibbit that managed to judo toss Big T and Great Wyrm Dragons on anything but a 1. It wasn't a caster build either. I remember it used some feats from a feline article by WotC (Twinning Step sticks out in memory), Confound the Big Folk, and something else. The end result was no size bonuses were applied and the enemy had to use Dex to resist your Trip attempt. That was important because the build was heavy on Setting Sun maneuvers.

*Edit* Found it!

Tibbit Barbarian2/Swordsagexxx focused on setting sun.

Feats:
Flaw:Wolf Lodge Berserker
Flaw:don't mind me
1: Weapon Finesse
Barb2: Imp Trip
3:Twinning Step
6:free
9:underfoot Combat
12: Confound the Big Folk

You enter their square, use a setting sun throw(forcing them to use Dex and negating any size benefit), and hurl them into a buddy.

[Crake]

Remember that cats don't have thumbs, so you'll need to invest resources into dealing with somatic components if you go Wizard.

The surrogate spellcasting feat from savage species should cover that perfectly, it's basically natural spell for everyone else.

[Inevitability]

How about Telepath Psion into Thrallherd, you get some crazy old witch to be your "owner" and you just subtly make things heads explode while everybody blames the crazy cat lady for it.

Don't forget to make the other followers all tibbits, and have them be permanently in cat form as well (so that enemies have no reason to target you over them). Whenever the crazy cat lady dies, one of her 'pets' morphs into a wrinkled old woman and takes over the herd. Bonus points if you invest in Disguise and make them look exactly like the previous lady: nobody is going to notice a single missing cat.

[Lazymancer]

I'm starting as level 7, so wizard 3, psion 3, cerebramancer 1, and my next 9 levels all in cerebramancer.
Just go CStP Erudite, if you want arcane magic that much.

You'll still have to deal with somatic components, but there is no need to lug around pouch with components and a spellbook (which might be problematic with your carrying capacity). It's also easier on paperwork: one class with a single resource (well, two: PP and UPP).

In case you want some semblance of balance, limit learnable spells to sorc/wiz only and do not circumvent expensive components by paying with PP.

Finally, since you are a cat and XP costs are annoying, you might want to homerule learning spells by eating scrolls - to learn a new spell, you need to eat your CL x100 gp worth of that spell scrolls (1 xp => 5 gp). For example, at level 3 it would require eating 12 scrolls of Magic Missile to learn it (300 gp /25 gp for one 1st-level scroll). On the other hand, learning Teleport at level 11 means that you need to eat only one scroll, since it's price (1,125 gp) exceeds 1,100 gp.

[Inevitability]

Actually I was thinking of doing these both at the same time. I'm starting as level 7, so wizard 3, psion 3, cerebramancer 1, and my next 9 levels all in cerebramancer. The druid already does a LOT of summoning, so I don't think I'm gonna clutter the floor even more, but I like the self buffing plan. Specializing seems like the way to go on the wizard side.

See if your DM will let you enter as a wizard 1/psion 3/cerebremancer 3. The Precocious Apprentice feat gives you a 2nd-level spell to qualify for the arcane casting bit of CM.

Though if you have multiclassing XP penalties, note that you'd incur them. In that case, I'd go wizard 1/psion 2/wizard +1/psion +1/cerebremancer 2 instead.

[Zaq]

The surrogate spellcasting feat from savage species should cover that perfectly, it's basically natural spell for everyone else.

Right. I didn't have my books open when I made my comment, but that sort of thing was exactly what I was thinking about.

It's still a feat tax, so my original comment about investing additional resources stands.

[jmax]

If you go with any sort of wizard or sorcerer base, ask the DM if you can have a human familiar. Then you can bask in the true meaning of a cat-human dynamic.

For sneakiness, dress the familiar up as a wizard and perch on his shoulder. Classic wizard-familiar swap.

[Mordaedil]

Do the rules dictate that you need opposable thumbs anywhere? I know it's kinda the given justification for not being to cast spells while polymorphed or wildshaped, but I would have think a cat that has trained as a wizard has found its own way of casting spells that is just using paws, much like how a dragon casts spells.

[Metahuman1]

If you go with the Barbarian, see if you can get unnatural reach and/or deformity tall and refluff it as just being terrifyingly quick on the attack/counter attack. (Cats are known for speed after all.). Also, note: At least some or all of that -8 Str should be offset by growing to large size via Mountain Rage, as it should be a size consideration.


While your at it, look at snagging Spirit Lion totem at first level and then the Wolf totem form Barbarian at level 2, And Trap Smasher (that dungeonscape AFC that let's you break traps with your weapon and a survival check to find them.) at level 3.

Other feats that would be good to consider are Improved and Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap kick and Hammer Fist, they synergize well and open up using Iterative attacks. Multyattack would also be useful I'm sure. A hit of Extra Rage could also be helpful, as could the Tireless feat if you've the room for it. (and steadfast determination, which tireless can replace endurance as the prerequisite for.). Knockdown would be worth looking at if you snag that Wolf Totem.


Dipping a level of cleric to snag devotion feats might be worth it. Particularly Travel and/or Luck Devotion. Rerolls are always neat and swift action movement plays into the fast thing, let's you have more room to be were you need to be on the battle field (thus helping some with battle field control.), opens up a skirmisher fighting style under the right circumstance's, and combines well with good jump checks to help with vertical movement.

Multyclassing to Warblade after 3-4 levels of Barbarian and maybe a level of cleric and focusing on Iron Heart or White Raven could also be good. Big HD, full BAB, couple of potentially useful class features if you have positive Int and you should all things considered, and as long as you don't focus on Diamond mind (Mixes badly with Rage ability's due to concentration checks.), it gives you some cool and potent options and enough room to learn 9th level maneuver's.

Stone Dragon has a trick or two worth dipping. Tiger Claw lends to mobility. White Raven can help the party some if there melee heavy and White Raven Tactics is amazing, and Iron Heart has a wide array of useful tricks including Iron Heart Surge and several options for attacking multiple Targets that can be synergized for great crowd control. Particularly if you have reach and improved trip, and maybe Knockdown form the SRD.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Okay so I've talked to my DM, and no I can't have a human familiar... And if I take leadership, all my followers have to be cats. (Tibbits are okay too.)

What he HAS allowed is both precocious apprentice... And the same feat but for a psion. He's also allowing me to enter Cerebramancer at level 3... So I'm doing it. That and taking leadership. My cohort is going to be a Tibbit swordsage going into Master of the Nine prc, whom I'm also thinking of making a stoneblessed goliath.

Couple things I'd like some weigh in on, I was looking at the feat Reactive counterspell, allowing me to counterspell as an immediate action at the cost of my next turn. This sounds nice in theory, but I'm not sure how often it'll be of use, or if I want to blow 3 feats for it. Also seems like it might be a waste of otherwise better used spells.

To improved familiar, or to not? Improved familiar is a good way to add some staying power to an otherwise underwhelming feature, but there might be better things to give that familiar up for. I'm browsing books as we speak looking for ACFs, but I feel like the familiar might be useful for this build, with that and a psicrystal basically allowing him to be in 3 places at once.

The Tibbit. Swordsage barbarian seems like an interesting combination, especially if you add mountain rage to the picture, but swordsage monk can have pretty much all the feats it needs to get to Master of Nine, and just straight swordsage would allow for better manuevers. Part of this whole idea is me trying to introduce a friend to the book of nine swords by letting him try some manuevers with his master swordsman class, but more importantly to add some power to our slightly weak party.

[jmax]

no I can't have a human familiar

Bummer. It's a great gag. You can probably use magic to fake it though.



And if I take leadership, all my followers have to be cats. (Tibbits are okay too.)

Can they be awakened? Awakened with class levels? Do they have to be housecats, or can you have a tiger once you're high enough level?



Couple things I'd like some weigh in on, I was looking at the feat Reactive counterspell, allowing me to counterspell as an immediate action at the cost of my next turn. This sounds nice in theory, but I'm not sure how often it'll be of use, or if I want to blow 3 feats for it. Also seems like it might be a waste of otherwise better used spells.

Is celerity allowed? If so, instead prepare that and a big blasty spell that forces an unbeatable Concentration check. You'll only be able to do it as many times per day as you have celerity prepared, but it won't cost any feats. And you can use celerity for plenty of other goodness.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Can they be awakened? Awakened with class levels? Do they have to be housecats, or can you have a tiger once you're high enough level?




Is celerity allowed? If so, instead prepare that and a big blasty spell that forces an unbeatable Concentration check. You'll only be able to do it as many times per day as you have celerity prepared, but it won't cost any feats. And you can use celerity for plenty of other goodness.

Yes they can be awakened with classes, yes I can get tigers and other big cats. The DM is allowing pretty much all published material, so I think I'll use Celerity instead. Thanks for the suggestion!

[TaiLiu]

If you do, consider being CE (like all cats) and taking two levels in Soulborn. This removes the -8 strength a tibbit would normally suffer when turning into a cat.
I think this might be the first and only time I've seen someone suggest taking Soulborn levels. :smallbiggrin:

[jmax]

Yes they can be awakened with classes, yes I can get tigers and other big cats. The DM is allowing pretty much all published material, so I think I'll use Celerity instead. Thanks for the suggestion!

You're welcome! When using celerity for "counterspelling", remember that the verbal component is "Nope!" :-P

(I'm not a fan of Exploding Kittens as an actual game, but I do love the Nope card.)

Also, speaking of exploding kittens, a staff with Transfer-metamagicked (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/metamagic-feats-3rd-party-kobold-press/transfer-spell-metamagic/) death throes (https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/death-throes--4348/) transforms a box of kittens into a weapon of mass destruction. It's depraved and evil... but dude, you're a cat. Totally in character.

[Venger]

I think this might be the first and only time I've seen someone suggest taking Soulborn levels. :smallbiggrin:

this is literally the only thing it's good for.

[Vizzerdrix]

On improved familiar- I think the tressym (winged kitty) can be taken as one if you want to keep the cat theam going. They make good lookouts and scouts.

[rel]

Our awakened housecat is a warlock. It works pretty well for damage since between being tiny, targetting touch and the racial Dex bonus it can't really miss even when firing into combat from the back lines.

I have a homebrewed magical cat race if you are interested.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Our awakened housecat is a warlock. It works pretty well for damage since between being tiny, targetting touch and the racial Dex bonus it can't really miss even when firing into combat from the back lines.

I have a homebrewed magical cat race if you are interested.

Yeah I'll take a look. DM's been encouraging homebrew stuff

[martixy]

Quick side-note:
You title phrasing is unreasonably ambiguous.

[rel]

Intelligent Cat

Ability modifiers: -8 str, +4 dex, +2 wis, -2 cha
size: Tiny
Base land speed: 30ft
Racial bonus feat: Weapon finesse
low light vision
scent
Natural attacks: 2X claw 1d2 (primary), bite 1d3 (secondary)
+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.
+8 racial bonus on Jump checks.
+8 racial bonus on Balance checks.
Special: use Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). An intelligent cat can speak and read normally but may have trouble writing.
Favoured class: Any.
LA: +0.


Also, an official but really weird option to play a cat exists in dragon magazine 293 p54. It is a table entry that states that an awakened cat is ECL 0. That's ECL not Level Adjustment so you end up with 3 hit dice but an ECL 1 character.

[Dagroth]

Intelligent Cat

Ability modifiers: -8 str, +4 dex, +2 wis, -2 cha
size: Tiny
Base land speed: 30ft
Racial bonus feat: Weapon finesse
low light vision
scent
Natural attacks: 2X claw 1d2 (primary), bite 1d3 (secondary)
+4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.
+8 racial bonus on Jump checks.
+8 racial bonus on Balance checks.
Special: use Dexterity modifier instead of Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). An intelligent cat can speak and read normally but may have trouble writing.
Favoured class: Any.
LA: +0.


Also, an official but really weird option to play a cat exists in dragon magazine 293 p54. It is a table entry that states that an awakened cat is ECL 0. That's ECL not Level Adjustment so you end up with 3 hit dice but an ECL 1 character.

Considering that Cha is "force of personality", I think you have the Wis & Cha modifiers swapped.

Not that I mind... +Wis races that can have Cleric as Favored Class are really rare.

[Lazymancer]

Intelligent Cat

...
Natural attacks: 2X claw 1d2 (primary), bite 1d3 (secondary)
...


I look at this and can't help, but think Ginger, the Wizard-Slayer. I'd nerf this to one bite, especially if you intend to let players get their grubby hands on it.

[Inevitability]

I look at this and can't help, but think Ginger, the Wizard-Slayer. I'd nerf this to one bite, especially if you intend to let players get their grubby hands on it.

It's not overpowered. Kobolds and tibbits get the same attacks, and I've never seen anyone complain about their 1d3 bites ruining a game.

[Lazymancer]

It's not overpowered. Kobolds and tibbits get the same attacks, and I've never seen anyone complain about their 1d3 bites ruining a game.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Kobolds not having any natural attacks might have something to do with it.

[Inevitability]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Kobolds not having any natural attacks might have something to do with it.

You were saying? (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

In fact, now that I see it again the kobold's weapons are even better than the cat's, as it gets two primaries rather than one, and all of them deal 1d3.

[Lazymancer]

You were saying? (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
Since you didn't actually present your argument, I had to guess and assumed "since many people had played with three natural attacks, and did not notice anything, it must be inconsequential".

I was clearly wrong, since you are talking about variant Kobold few people are aware of and, consequently, couldn't actually play on a mass scale.

What is your actual argument?


In fact, now that I see it again the kobold's weapons are even better than the cat's, as it gets two primaries rather than one, and all of them deal 1d3.
You might want to try using your powers of vision again. Cat gets two primaries too.

[Inevitability]

Since you didn't actually present your argument, I had to guess and assumed "since many people had played with three natural attacks, and did not notice anything, it must be inconsequential".

I was clearly wrong, since you are talking about variant Kobold few people are aware of and, consequently, couldn't actually play on a mass scale.

What is your actual argument?

Don't worry, you weren't wrong. You understood my argument just fine. In addition to that, I also believe that just by running the numbers it's obvious cat natural weapons aren't overpowered.

Also, it seems to me the variant kobold (which is really more of an update) is pretty well-known on these forums.


You might want to try using your powers of vision again. Cat gets two primaries too.

Ah, that's true. Kobold claws are still better, though.



Allow me to ask you to present your arguments now. In what way do you expect a cat's natural weapons to be game-breaking? Do you have numbers to back this up?

[Lazymancer]

In addition to that, I also believe that just by running the numbers it's obvious cat natural weapons aren't overpowered.
And I believe, you should finally get a hint and tone down strawmanning: "ruining a game", "overpowered", "game-breaking". I recommended to reduce number of natural attacks.


Also, it seems to me the variant kobold (which is really more of an update) is pretty well-known on these forums.
Since it is not an update, nor is it present in Monster Manual (or Races of the Dragon), I can't really agree that there was a widely played +0 LA race with 3 natural attacks.


Allow me to ask you to present your arguments now. In what way do you expect a cat's natural weapons to be game-breaking? Do you have numbers to back this up?
Regular Rogue who has to spend a feat to get Two-Weapon Fighting gets only two attacks and both have -2 penalty. Cat doesn't have to invest anything to get two attacks at no penalty and third at -5.

Assuming Str 12 and Dex 15, Human Rogue 1 with shortswords (2WF, WF) will have 2 +0(1d6+1 +1d6 sneak) attacks, while Cat Rogue 1 (Multiattack, WF) will have two +8(1 +1d6 sneak) claw attacks, and +6(1 +1d6 sneak) bite.

Against AC 11: +46%
Human Rogue 1: 50% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 90% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 80% x (1+3.5) = 11.7 damage on average

Against AC 13: +61%
Human Rogue 1: 40% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 6.4 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 80% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 70% x (1+3.5) = 10.35 damage on average

Against AC 15: +87%
Human Rogue 1: 30% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 4.8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 70% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 60% x (1+3.5) = 9 damage on average

[Inevitability]

And I believe, you should finally get a hint and tone down strawmanning: "ruining a game", "overpowered", "game-breaking". I recommended to reduce number of natural attacks.

In what way? You are criticizing a lot of things, but other than 'less attacks' I feel like you haven't really given any concrete suggestions. How do you think the cat race should be altered? Do you recommend to remove the bite, both claws, or perhaps all three natural weapons?


Since it is not an update, nor is it present in Monster Manual (or Races of the Dragon), I can't really agree that there was a widely played +0 LA race with 3 natural attacks.

Let's agree to disagree, then. :)

Though on the subject of kobolds: would you allow a web enhancement kobold in your game using its stats as written? How about a tibbit?


Assuming Str 12 and Dex 15, Human Rogue 1 with shortswords (2WF, WF) will have 2 +0(1d6+1 +1d6 sneak) attacks, while Cat Rogue 1 (Multiattack, WF) will have two +8(1 +1d6 sneak) claw attacks, and +6(1 +1d6 sneak) bite.

Against AC 11: +46%
Human Rogue 1: 50% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 90% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 80% x (1+3.5) = 11.7 damage on average

Against AC 13: +61%
Human Rogue 1: 40% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 6.4 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 80% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 70% x (1+3.5) = 10.35 damage on average

Against AC 15: +87%
Human Rogue 1: 30% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 4.8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 70% x (1+3.5) x 2 + 60% x (1+3.5) = 9 damage on average

Quick question: why is the cat not suffering -3 or -4 damage on every attack? 1d3+1d6-4 does not average 4.5.

Including a -3 strength modifier in your damage numbers gives the following result:

Against AC 11: +46%
Human Rogue 1: 50% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 90% x (1.5+3.5-3) x 2 + 80% x (2+3.5-3) = 5.6 damage on average

Against AC 13: +61%
Human Rogue 1: 40% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 6.4 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 80% x (1.5+3.5-3) x 2 + 70% x (2+3.5-3) = 4.95 damage on average

Against AC 15: +87%
Human Rogue 1: 30% x (3.5+1+3.5) x 2 = 4.8 damage on average
Cat Rogue 1: 70% x (1.5+3.5-3) x 2 + 60% x (2+3.5-3) = 4.3 damage on average


Ignoring the comparison character could be build better, this clearly shows the cat will be dealing less damage. Add to this the trouble it will have wearing armor, using magical weapons at higher levels, and getting iterative attacks, and I think the 'advantage' of having natural weapons isn't big enough to warrant removal.

[Jack_McSnatch]

What book is the Tressym in? I know I've seen it but I don't remember where

[Vizzerdrix]

What book is the Tressym in? I know I've seen it but I don't remember where

It is listed in a few faerun books.

[Rerednaw]

I have a Psion, single class, no dips.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1157413

He's Azurin but you can tweak him for a Tibbit build. And drop the crafting cheese. Our game has normal WBL at start...and about 1% loot found after that. So I had no compunctions about using crafting to boost starting wealth.

I actually have a psi-cat somewhere but I will to find him.
Neko the Mind-Slaver. :). I can always rebuild him if necessary.

Anyway his base stunts:

Time Hop to make the bad thing go away.
Mindsight via Pet Rock "Hey boss there are lifeforms here, here, and here."
Telepath because Schism is amazing.
Dominate because you know cats are masters of all.
Mind Thrust..cat makes people's brains explode!
EK: Astral Construct w Boost Construct feat.
EK: Energy Missile just because a cat that throws melts faces, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc...is cool.
With shard tweaks, self recharge power points. Note if that isn't allowed than Earth Power + Midnight Augmentation (Bestow Power) also works for net 1PP/round.
Pre-nerfed Torc. Drop if you don't like.

If you give me campaign guidelines I can tweak him for you.

[SangoProduction]

You can refluff basically every spell in to some kind of martial arts move, especially if using wuxia-style martial arts. So, you can cover that base right there, if you wanted to.

To embrace the fluff of being a martial-kitty, on a more mechanical level, you can go for sneak-attack stacking to high heaven. Make sure to nab some Shadowhand maneuvers and its stance (preferably through Unarmed Swordsage). Tiger Claw maneuvers would also fit the fluff.

This very much would represent a martial artist who favors precision over sheer force, which is often how the older martial arts masters are represented.

[Lazymancer]

What book is the Tressym in? I know I've seen it but I don't remember where
It's everywhere. It's the Schrödinger cat of DnD, since it is elegible both as Familiar (PGtF) and Animal Companion (Sandstorm). Animal version is in FRCS and magical beast in LEoF.



You are criticizing a lot of things
I'm quite certain it was number of natural attacks I was talking about.


other than 'less attacks' I feel like you haven't really given any concrete suggestions.
That may have something to do with me not criticizing "a lot of things".


Though on the subject of kobolds: would you allow a web enhancement kobold in your game using its stats as written? How about a tibbit?
I might allow dragon with six natural attacks, but that wouldn't change anything.


Quick question: why is the cat not suffering -3 or -4 damage on every attack? 1d3+1d6-4 does not average 4.5.
Are you trying to say 1d3+1d6-4 averages at 1.5?

If so, I'd like you to read minimum damage rule (PHB p134). Whether you apply it before or after adding extra damage rolls (which is up to debate), you can't get -2 damage, if both 1d3 and 1d6 rolled 1. Unlike your estimations suggest.


Ignoring the comparison character could be build better,
Both characters could be better. Cat should replace Multiattack with Craven, for example.

Or (if you apply minimum danage rule after adding extra damage from Sneak Attacks), get higher Strength. For example Str 15, Dex 12 Cat, with Craven instead of Multiattack would be doing on average 7 damage vs AC 15, rather than 4.9 damage (you mistakenly put it at 4.3) - Human was 4.8 damage.


Add to this the trouble it will have wearing armor
Between tiny size and +4 Dex Cats get a total of +4 AC over Humans.

[Inevitability]

I might allow dragon with six natural attacks, but that wouldn't change anything.

Well, if you're criticizing a cat for its number of natural attacks being too powerful while having no problem with allowing a creature with even more natural attacks in your game, I am kind of confused what we're disagreeing about.

For the record: I believe cats, with the stats given earlier in this thread, are balanced PCs.
At the moment, I believe you consider cats, with the stats given earlier in this thread, not to be balanced PCs. If I'm wrong, please tell me why.


Are you trying to say 1d3+1d6-4 averages at 1.5?

If so, I'd like you to read minimum damage rule (PHB p134). Whether you apply it before or after adding extra damage rolls (which is up to debate), you can't get -2 damage, if both 1d3 and 1d6 rolled 1. Unlike your estimations suggest.

I admit that 1d3+1d6-4 does not average to 1.5. After running the numbers, the average is closer to 2.0555..., which is still less than the 1d6+1 we've been assuming a 'normal' rogue is dealing.

Also, I disagree that rounding up to 1 after extra damage is uncommon. The rule in question, given for your convenience, is:


Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

The damage result is literally the result of your attack, in terms of how much damage it does. If you roll 1d3-4 and get a 2 for a total of -2, you are free to declare your damage result 1, but you're not going to deal any more damage than that.


Both characters could be better. Cat should replace Multiattack with Craven, for example.




Between tiny size and +4 Dex Cats get a total of +4 AC over Humans.

True, humans are behind in the early game if their extra feat isn't defense-focused (though elves, kobolds, goblins, gnomes, and tibbits are all equal or better with regards to AC), but at higher levels they'll have an easier time using magic armor (how often have you found a set of magical cat-sized barding?). The cat will have to get it custom made, which is a longer and more costly process.



As you still refuse to answer my main question, I must inform you I'll retreat from this discussion should your next post not answer it. Let me ask again:

Do you consider cats too strong for a game? If so, do you consider tibbits and web enhancement kobolds too strong? If you consider them too strong, what do you propose with regards to rebalancing cats?

[Lazymancer]

As you still refuse to answer my main question
This forum is filled with trolls who argue for the sake of arguing.


I look at this and can't help, but think Ginger, the Wizard-Slayer. I'd nerf this to one bite, especially if you intend to let players get their grubby hands on it.

[Inevitability]

This forum is filled with trolls who argue for the sake of arguing.

http://smbc-comics.com/comics/20120602after.gif


More seriously, I'm not seeing my question about tibbits in any way answered by your post, so have fun with your 'cats should be nerfed for being good rogues' opinion. I'm out!

[atemu1234]

TBH I'm not much of an optimizer in all the games I'm actually playing in. As a thought experiment, it's cool, but in practice, I tend to roleplay things better with non-op games.

I'd play a Tibbit rogue, but then again, that's been my plan for a long time anyways.

[Vizzerdrix]

If we are nerfing cats, then I demand we nerf squids as well. At will jet and ink are far, far too powerful!

[Dagroth]

If we are nerfing cats, then I demand we nerf squids as well. At will jet and ink are far, far too powerful!

Say... if you're an Awakened Squid, you're a Magical Beast, right?

That means you have Magical Ink, right?

That means you don't have to spend extra money to scribe spells in your book, because you've got an unlimited source of magical ink, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Vizzerdrix]

Say... if you're an Awakened Squid, you're a Magical Beast, right?

That means you have Magical Ink, right?

That means you don't have to spend extra money to scribe spells in your book, because you've got an unlimited source of magical ink, right? :smallbiggrin:

Would you like some advil for that knee? The knee you just busted the game over.

[Venger]

While we're at it, RAW, ink cloud functions anywhere, not just underwater.

[Inevitability]

While we're at it, RAW, ink cloud functions anywhere, not just underwater.

So does Jet. Get lessened falling speed in any of the various ways (dragonborn is probably the easiest way), launch yourself up, fall a few dozen feet before taking your turn again and continuing your ascent. Once you're at a suitably high altitude, start directing the majority of your jet strength forward, expending just enough upward to maintain your altitude.

[Dagroth]

So does Jet. Get lessened falling speed in any of the various ways (dragonborn is probably the easiest way), launch yourself up, fall a few dozen feet before taking your turn again and continuing your ascent. Once you're at a suitably high altitude, start directing the majority of your jet strength forward, expending just enough upward to maintain your altitude.

Boots of Levitation? Ring of Feather Fall?

[Inevitability]

Boots of Levitation? Ring of Feather Fall?

Both good suggestions. In fact, as I'm not sure whether or not Jet is a 'racial trait', this is probably better.

[rel]

Considering that Cha is "force of personality", I think you have the Wis & Cha modifiers swapped.

Not that I mind... +Wis races that can have Cleric as Favored Class are really rare.

The +2 charisma represents the +1D3 cha from an awaken spell. We based the stat block on a cat with awaken cast on it.

That said, dropping the Cha bonus might be a good idea. The cat seems quite strong in play.

[Dagroth]

The +2 charisma represents the +1D3 cha from an awaken spell. We based the stat block on a cat with awaken cast on it.

That said, dropping the Cha bonus might be a good idea. The cat seems quite strong in play.

Uh... I was referring to the statblock you provided that gave the cat +2 Wis, -2 Cha.

I felt it should be -2 Wis, +2 Cha.

P.S. Compare to the Catfolk race in Races of the Wild, which is a +1 LA.

[Lazymancer]

Uh... I was referring to the statblock you provided that gave the cat +2 Wis, -2 Cha.

I felt it should be -2 Wis, +2 Cha.

P.S. Compare to the Catfolk race in Races of the Wild, which is a +1 LA.
They are not creating new race, but simply using statblock of awakened cat. It has 9 Charisma on average (7 cha +1d3). I.e. it goes from -4 Cha to -2 Cha.

[JBPuffin]

Say... if you're an Awakened Squid, you're a Magical Beast, right?

That means you have Magical Ink, right?

That means you don't have to spend extra money to scribe spells in your book, because you've got an unlimited source of magical ink, right? :smallbiggrin:

I for one welcome our cephalopod overlords. It's been a long time coming.

I also remember finding out about 3.5 squids when I was 8 or so and thinking, "But how does it breathe out of the water?"

[rel]

They are not creating new race, but simply using statblock of awakened cat. It has 9 Charisma on average (7 cha +1d3). I.e. it goes from -4 Cha to -2 Cha.

^ Better explanation.

Yes, according to D&D cat's are wise. Wisdom is their second best stat after dex.

Charisma is and remains poor even after a buff from the awaken spell.