Warhulk Dervish?

[Xarteros]

One of my players is trying to make a huge AoE tripping build (With the Knockdown feat), and is looking at mixing Dervish with Warhulk

Two questions:

1) Whilst in a Dervish Dance, it says you can take a 'full attack action' for melee weapons only. Now, I know that the wording doesn't allow for a normal 'full-round action', but once you gain the Mighty Swing ability from Warhulk, the implication is that Mighty Swing becomes a regular attack action (requiring a standard action to use, or allowing you to take iterative attacks in a full-round action). Does this allow the two to function together? Allowing you to use Mighty Swing or Massive Swing whilst you move about in a Dervish Dance?

2) Assuming he takes both Dervish and Warhulk; a Dervish gains a round of duration during their dance for every two ranks of Perform (Dance) they have, but lvl 1 Warhulk is "considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom- and Charisma-based skills". Does that mean you have to treat your ranks in Perform (Dance) as 0 no matter how many ranks you've actually purchased, and keeping the Dervish Dance at its minimum 1 round?

I'm not too concerned with my players being overpowered, so don't worry about that. I'd just like to hear what everyone's interpretations are =)

[OldTrees1]

1) Yes. Mighty Blow is an attack rather than an action. It can be used in full attacks, charges, attacks of opportunity, or anything else that allows you an attack.

2) I read No Time to Think as either making you effectively have 0 ranks or literally have 0 ranks. Neither interpretation is favorable to the Dervish.

I don't like No Time to Think so I might be inclined to remove that detriment. However I also don't like Dervish Dance being limited to level/day.

[Rebel7284]

You can use Ability Rip to remove No Time to Think.

[Venger]

You can use Ability Rip to remove No Time to Think.

No you can't. It's ex. Ability rip only works on su stuff. Even if it did, it explicitly does not work on class features.

[Dagroth]

See if the DM will allow you to change Perform: Dance to a DEX based skill, since it should be one anyway.

[Xarteros]

1) Yes. Mighty Blow is an attack rather than an action. It can be used in full attacks, charges, attacks of opportunity, or anything else that allows you an attack.

2) I read No Time to Think as either making you effectively have 0 ranks or literally have 0 ranks. Neither interpretation is favorable to the Dervish.

I don't like No Time to Think so I might be inclined to remove that detriment. However I also don't like Dervish Dance being limited to level/day.

See, I always thought that No Time To Think was just an effective change, rather than a literal change (only applying to actual rolls for the skills). If it was a literal change, that'd actually be garbage, because then it would imply that you can never meet the prereqs for any class or feat that has Int/Cha/Wis based skills needed.

Would it be outright ridiculous to try and enforce the literal 0-rank skills as a rule? I mean, Warhulk isn't the most... balanced... class in the game, but I can see it being a bit of a character's dead-end in regards to trying to qualify for other prestige classes


See if the DM will allow you to change Perform: Dance to a DEX based skill, since it should be one anyway.

I'm actually the DM for this game =P Sorry, I didn't make that particularly clear. I prefer making house rules after consulting others, so I can be sure I'm not grossly misinterpreting something. That said, if worse comes to worst and I decide that Warhulks should lose all Int/Wis/Cha ranks, I can easily see swapping Perform (Dance) to a dex-based skill. I already run an alternative rule for Intimidate, so you can use Str or Dex, whichever is higher (who needs to act tough when you are a 20ft tall, 4 ton slab of solid muscle, drenched in gore?)

[PacMan2247]

See, I always thought that No Time To Think was just an effective change, rather than a literal change (only applying to actual rolls for the skills). If it was a literal change, that'd actually be garbage, because then it would imply that you can never meet the prereqs for any class or feat that has Int/Cha/Wis based skills needed.


It doesn't actually strip skill ranks from a character, but being "considered to have 0 ranks" in all of those skills does preclude advancing into prestige classes that require them (and if you're using the rule that loss of prerequisites costs you the abilities of a class, can seriously foul up earlier choices). It also makes the character completely unable to use Decipher Script, Disable Device, Handle Animal, all of the Knowledge skills, Profession, Spellcraft, and UMD. Granted, a character building toward War Hulk probably wouldn't have much invested in those places, but still, it's not a decision to be made lightly.

[Zanos]

No you can't. It's ex. Ability rip only works on su stuff. Even if it did, it explicitly does not work on class features.
Serpent Kingdom's trait removal would work for an hour per level, though.

[OldTrees1]

See, I always thought that No Time To Think was just an effective change, rather than a literal change (only applying to actual rolls for the skills). If it was a literal change, that'd actually be garbage, because then it would imply that you can never meet the prereqs for any class or feat that has Int/Cha/Wis based skills needed.

Would it be outright ridiculous to try and enforce the literal 0-rank skills as a rule? I mean, Warhulk isn't the most... balanced... class in the game, but I can see it being a bit of a character's dead-end in regards to trying to qualify for other prestige classes

Balance is relative so I cannot give a universal answer to your question.

No I don't think it would be ridiculous to enforce the 0-rank rule. Warhulk is a bit more balanced of a martial class than the majority of martial options and thus can be relatively unbalanced if one leaves the other options in their current states.

However I, personally, would rather buff those other options.

Sidenote: Look at Mighty Swing and Improved Trip. I nerfed that interaction at my table.

[Xarteros]

It doesn't actually strip skill ranks from a character, but being "considered to have 0 ranks" in all of those skills does preclude advancing into prestige classes that require them (and if you're using the rule that loss of prerequisites costs you the abilities of a class, can seriously foul up earlier choices). It also makes the character completely unable to use Decipher Script, Disable Device, Handle Animal, all of the Knowledge skills, Profession, Spellcraft, and UMD. Granted, a character building toward War Hulk probably wouldn't have much invested in those places, but still, it's not a decision to be made lightly.

Now see, this is where I feel that it really comes down to interpretation. Most things that would remove a skill or feat etc tend to explicitly mention that 'if the loss of X causes you to no longer qualify for any feats/prestige classes, you lose all relevant abilities until you re-qualify blah blah'

Since there's no mention of it at all in the "No Time To Think" entry, my overarching thought is that it's not intended to limit you from meeting skill requirements for classes or feats.

Note that it also doesn't mention that you can no longer put ranks into any of those skills, only that it makes them "considered to have 0 ranks".

You seem really sure about how it works though, do you have any errata or FAQ material to clarify your viewpoint with? Or is it just your interpretation?