TWF with shillelagh club?

[Tanarii]

I have a Druid that wants to dual wield his shillelagh club and a scimitar. Since the club has the light property, and as far as I can see the the Shillelagh cantrip doesn't change this, that's RAW, correct?

Also looking at the M components, it looks like he wouldn't be able to shillelagh two clubs, since he couldn't have a free hand for the components (or focus or component pouch) while still holding onto the first (to maintain the spell) and the second (to cast it on). Or would you rule that picking up the weapon with your hand is the last step of the casting? Otherwise a club & shield Druid wouldn't be able to shillelagh his only weapon. (QS and shield would because the QS is the focus too.) edit: so far I've never questioned a club and shield Druid casting shillelagh, so I'd probably not enforce that for this potential dual-wield Druid if he wanted to burn 2 bonus actions, even if I thought it was RAW.

While I'm on the topic, by the same logic, a quarterstaff shillelagh should be usable with the Polearm master feat? I don't use feats, just theoretical question for this one.

[Tetrasodium]

I have a Druid that wants to dual wield his shillelagh club and a scimitar. Since the club has the light property, and as far as I can see the the Shillelagh cantrip doesn't change this, that's RAW, correct?

Also looking at the M components, it looks like he wouldn't be able to shillelagh two clubs, since he couldn't have a free hand for the components (or focus or component pouch) while still holding onto the first (to maintain the spell) and the second (to cast it on). Or would you rule that picking up the weapon with your hand is the last step of the casting? Otherwise a club & shield Druid wouldn't be able to shillelagh his only weapon. (QS and shield would because the QS is the focus too.) edit: so far I've never questioned a club and shield Druid casting shillelagh, so I'd probably not enforce that for this potential dual-wield Druid if he wanted to burn 2 bonus actions, even if I thought it was RAW.

While I'm on the topic, by the same logic, a quarterstaff shillelagh should be usable with the Polearm master feat? I don't use feats, just theoretical question for this one.

He could do it w/ warcaster but not being able to add the stat bonus to damage on the offhand will hurt it. All things considered, there are a lot better things a druid could be doing in a fight that don't involve running up to smack something in melee instead of carrying a shield.

[tsotate]

Also looking at the M components, it looks like he wouldn't be able to shillelagh two clubs


The spell ends if you cast it again

So no, he can't Shillelagh two clubs (at the same time).

[Arkhios]

So no, he can't Shillelagh two clubs (at the same time).

I think with Twinned Metamagic you could twin shillelagh.

[Herobizkit]

Dual wielding? Yup, that's perfectly allowed IF it's a club and not a quarterstaff; clubs are Light, quarterstaffs are not.

Shillelagh disappears from the first club if cast on a new club.

[Theodoxus]

"The spell ends if you cast it again" - so no, you couldn't TWF with 2 shillelaghs... I don't see why you couldn't TWF with a shillelagh and any other light weapon (so, scimitar is fine...) but you're still dealing with 2 attribute dependencies, so I'd rather go club/shield for the extra defense...

I've yet to use a shillelagh build, but it's definitely on my list of things to play sometime.

Wow, shadowmonked! But! ETA:
I think with Twinned Metamagic you could twin shillelagh.

Twinned requires a spell that targets a creature... unless you're using baby ents as clubs, it won't work, sadly.

[Tanarii]

So no, he can't Shillelagh two clubs (at the same time).
Oops. Thanks. I re-scanned the text of the spell before posting too. /sigh

[djreynolds]

Just take PAM and "dual wield" a quarterstaff, which face it, PAM is basically a better version of dual wielding.

Otherwise the damage output is the virtually the same:

with a shillelagh and scimitar 1d8 & off hand 1d6 but no ability modifier

vs

PAM shillelagh quarterstaff 1d8 & off hand 1d4 plus modifier

I would allow you to use two clubs, cast shillelagh on a big stick and break it in half after

I would allow it because a club and scimitar is cool.

Also tell your player if he/she fashions a scimitar out of like a moose antler or bear hip joint he/she gets 2 "cool" points a day

[Socratov]

By RAW, no. By RoC, hell yes. But on the condition that the player would speak in the squeaky voice of a disgruntled Leprachaun the entire time he does this...

[Arkhios]

Twinned requires a spell that targets a creature... unless you're using baby ents as clubs, it won't work, sadly.

Aww, damn, you're right. Also, Groot might disapprove! :D

[Tanarii]

Just take PAM and "dual wield" a quarterstaff, which face it, PAM is basically a better version of dual wielding.PAM is a very powerful feat, although I believe your comparison failed to account for the ASI that would be spent. But my campaign is no feats, so it's not an option for the player.


By RAW, no.
Are you saying that RAW doesn't allow a shillelagh club to be dual wielded with a scimitar? If so what's your basis?

[djreynolds]

Not to get off topic, but I find PAM diminishes TWF, and fighting with both ends of any pole weapon is essentially TWF

I have never understood how a slashing weapon like polearm can be swung for 1d10 worth of damage and then get a BA butt stroke, but a great axe can't

Ok, back to what is important, this druid is cool

Yes you could definitely use shillelagh on a club and free interact with item and draw any light weapon and TWF, I might even allow shillelagh cast on a shaped dart to be thrown

Cool.

Question, can shillelagh be cast on a wooden shield for an AC bonus or whatever else?

I working on a druid who uses natural stuff for weapons and armor, and it would be cool if you could cast shillelagh on a suit bark or tortoise shell or chunk of tree (Thorin Oakenshield) as a shield

Like shillelagh and druidcraft would be the power behind making magical weapons/armor from beasts and plants but losing shapechange

[Citan]

I have a Druid that wants to dual wield his shillelagh club and a scimitar. Since the club has the light property, and as far as I can see the the Shillelagh cantrip doesn't change this, that's RAW, correct?

Seems perfectly RAW to me. ;)


Also looking at the M components, it looks like he wouldn't be able to shillelagh two clubs, since he couldn't have a free hand for the components (or focus or component pouch) while still holding onto the first (to maintain the spell) and the second (to cast it on). Or would you rule that picking up the weapon with your hand is the last step of the casting? Otherwise a club & shield Druid wouldn't be able to shillelagh his only weapon. (QS and shield would because the QS is the focus too.) edit: so far I've never questioned a club and shield Druid casting shillelagh, so I'd probably not enforce that for this potential dual-wield Druid if he wanted to burn 2 bonus actions, even if I thought it was RAW.

Hmmm. I see several ways to see this.
1. "Holding your weapon" may be understood as just "holding a part of your weapon" instead of "wielding your weapon" in the D&d 5e meaning. If first was allowed, then it means you could have your club attached to your belt, having your arm wielding shield just "lying" on its top while your other hand (the one that usually wields the club) takes care of the somatic and material components.

2. In case you are holding a quarterstaff and it is a Druid focus (not sure if it exists, not familiar with available focus for casters), per official ruling, the focus takes care of material components and the hand holding the focus can take care of somatic IIRC, so you could cast Shillelagh while wielding focus quarterstaff and shield.

3. DM allows you, as you suggest, to take hold the weapon as the last thing to do for casting, and then you can use your free interaction to unsheathe it, and it works for a dual-wielder since it means each hand can take care of its "own" Shillelagh casting (well, you would also add the houserule that you can have 2 instances of Shillelagh at the same time).
But seems the wording of Shillelagh really goes against this interpretation so it would be a houserule imo. I would certainly allow it as a DM though, it really doesn't break anything balance-wise and would allow flavorful character. :)

Only option 2 is RAW per my understanding and memories of official rulings. 3 is clear houserule imo as I said, 1 could be considered RAW with some leniency or strong argumentation, otherwise houserule.



While I'm on the topic, by the same logic, a quarterstaff shillelagh should be usable with the Polearm master feat? I don't use feats, just theoretical question for this one.
Yeah, it's totally usable, and a popular combo (not necessarily on Druids, but in general, for any class getting access to Shillelagh).


1. Not to get off topic, but I find PAM diminishes TWF, and fighting with both ends of any pole weapon is essentially TWF

2. I have never understood how a slashing weapon like polearm can be swung for 1d10 worth of damage and then get a BA butt stroke, but a great axe can't

Ok, back to what is important, this druid is cool

3. Yes you could definitely use shillelagh on a club and free interact with item and draw any light weapon and TWF, I might even allow shillelagh cast on a shaped dart to be thrown

Cool.

4. Question, can shillelagh be cast on a wooden shield for an AC bonus or whatever else?

I working on a druid who uses natural stuff for weapons and armor, and it would be cool if you could cast shillelagh on a suit bark or tortoise shell or chunk of tree (Thorin Oakenshield) as a shield

Like shillelagh and druidcraft would be the power behind making magical weapons/armor from beasts and plants but losing shapechange
1. You are dead on rights here. Unless you have access to TWF style and/or Dual Wielder feat, using dual-wield is totally redundant with Polearm Master, apart from making spellcasting more difficult. XD

2. I understand what you said, and I'd tend to agree with you, but my ideas to rationalize this choice would probably be a matter of total weight and weapon balance: great-axe has much bigger metal mass overall than a polearm, while still being concentrated on one end of the weapon. So I suspect that quickly changing your hold on the weapon towards center mass to make it flip would be much more difficult on a greataxe than on a polearm.
With that said, real-world physics are already bent or plain ignored, so it wouldn't surprise me that at least a strong Barbarian or Fighter would be able to accomplish such a technic with ease.
Maybe there is some balance reason that I missed, or they just arbitrarily set two-handed weapons apart for more flavor.

3. Note that it wouldn't help the player at all since Shillelagh specifies its power applies only to melee attacks made with the weapon. Otherwise it could lead to some strong combos. Certainly nothing game-breaking though so I would certainly allow this houserule with added change on Shillelagh effect "affects all attacks made with imbued weapon" AND "the effect lasts until the duration end or at the end of the turn on which you let go of the weapon" (by RAW Shillelagh would end as soon as your dart leaves your hand).

4. By RAW, no, since it specifies club or quarterstaff.
You could certainly houserule an extend to shields, so that they could be used as improvised 1d8 weapons.
By RAW, unless your player also picked Tavern Brawler, he would obviously not be able to add his WIS mod to attack/damage.
Still, again, and because of what said just above, I see no harm in allowing this houserule.
Allowing to cast it on a shield to gain AC bonus is a different matter. If you don't allow any other houserule, I would probably allow the casting on wooden shield to give it a bonus +1 AC. I would be wary about giving more though.

[Socratov]

PAM is a very powerful feat, although I believe your comparison failed to account for the ASI that would be spent. But my campaign is no feats, so it's not an option for the player.


Are you saying that RAW doesn't allow a shillelagh club to be dual wielded with a scimitar? If so what's your basis?

I was referencing the dual wielding of shillelagh clubs and/or quarterstaves (which is the same really due to shillelagh).

I would allow it though, just to see a druid take the dual wielding feat and prance around like a leprechaun on speed...

[djreynolds]

Unless there is a huge advantage gained, I never push rules or mechanics, so I would allow shillelagh and a scimitar. As you would need a high wisdom and dex to optimally pull it off

Sounds crazy, but shillelagh ain't bad for any character who has a decent wisdom and needs a magic weapon

[Arkhios]

There's one thing to remember about shillelagh, which often seems to be forgotten (even during the course of this thread going forward): Shillelagh can be used on club and quarterstaff, and since club is in the light category, there isn't any "pushing the rules" in allowing shillelagh club and scimitar. Two-weapon fighting with two light melee weapons is completely within the rules.

[Socratov]

There's one thing to remember about shillelagh, which often seems to be forgotten (even during the course of this thread going forward): Shillelagh can be used on club and quarterstaff, and since club is in the light category, there isn't any "pushing the rules" in allowing shillelagh club and scimitar. Two-weapon fighting with two light melee weapons is completely within the rules.

Only if you can hold both while handling material components (apart fomr the club/staff), somatic components and verbal components (so no handling misletoe with your mouth)

oh, and technically you can only cast it n one quarterstaff or club at a time as the spell says 'a quarterstaff or club' instead of 'any' or 'all' or general plural. What's more, any further casting eliminates the first, so no, you can't technically by RAW dual wield shillelagh clubs.

[Arkhios]

Only if you can hold both while handling material components (apart fomr the club/staff), somatic components and verbal components (so no handling misletoe with your mouth)

oh, and technically you can only cast it n one quarterstaff or club at a time as the spell says 'a quarterstaff or club' instead of 'any' or 'all' or general plural. What's more, any further casting eliminates the first, so no, you can't technically by RAW dual wield shillelagh clubs.

Note, I didn't say "can be cast on both club and quarterstaff at the same time". I only stated that it can be cast on either. My primary point in that sentence was that casting Shillelagh on club doesn't make it a non-light melee weapon, even though it becomes a 1d8 weapon for the duration... which, by the way, is 1 minute, not 1 round. There's really no need for a situation "only if you can hold both..." because you could just as well keep the other weapon sheathed before you cast Shillelagh, and draw it after you've done casting the spell. Because casting Shillelagh is a bonus action you couldn't use two-weapon fighting on that turn anyway. After the first round, when you cast it, there's still 9 completely fine rounds for two-weapon fighting if you want to.

Also, I was speaking about dual wielding a club and a scimitar. But, same could apply to two clubs with only one of them being a Shillelagh. Not two clubs with Shillelagh cast on them.

[Drackolus]

All material components for a spell needs only one hand. (p.203, confirmed in a tweet if memory serves) Since the club is listed as one of those materials in the spell line, holding the club does not interfere with using the other two items. How you flavor that is not covered in the rules, only the end result is. I'd recommend just saying the mistletoe and shamrock are tied to the club.

Were it me, I'd just allow the druid to buy a "totem" and say it's a club, so it becomes a casting focus. Mostly because of r.o.c. Kind of taking from the fact that a staff can be a druid focus and used with shillelagh. Definitely homebrew territory there.

Also worth noting that, if he uses it for the bonus action attack, he does not get to add his wisdom mod for the damage, despite using it for his to-hit. Two-weapon fighting rules take precedence. He still gets a d8 on a light weapon, which is rad. And it it's his main attack, he can still add wisdome to damage.

[Tanarii]

All material components for a spell needs only one hand. (p.203, confirmed in a tweet if memory serves) Since the club is listed as one of those materials in the spell line, holding the club does not interfere with using the other two items. How you flavor that is not covered in the rules, only the end result is. I'd recommend just saying the mistletoe and shamrock are tied to the club.That's pretty much the conclusion I arrived at while writing the post. My stance on M components (or foci or whatever) is if one of them is already in your hand and you want to cast the spell, you can, as part of casting the spell, remove it from your hand to free it up. On the basis that you already can use your hand to access it without any additional action cost as part of casting the spell. So if you have a club in one hand and scimitar in the other, you free up club hand, access 2 other M components, access club, and spell is finished casting.

Alternately if you want to get stickler you just 'sheath' the club as an object interaction to free up your hand, then cast the spell as a bonus action with a free hand to access all components, and end up with the club (which is explicitly one of the M components) in your hand with shillelagh on it at no further action cost.

[Vae]

This sounds both awesome and rule abiding. there is nothing I can see in the rules that would disallow this.

[Socratov]

All material components for a spell needs only one hand. (p.203, confirmed in a tweet if memory serves) Since the club is listed as one of those materials in the spell line, holding the club does not interfere with using the other two items. How you flavor that is not covered in the rules, only the end result is. I'd recommend just saying the mistletoe and shamrock are tied to the club.

Were it me, I'd just allow the druid to buy a "totem" and say it's a club, so it becomes a casting focus. Mostly because of r.o.c. Kind of taking from the fact that a staff can be a druid focus and used with shillelagh. Definitely homebrew territory there.

Also worth noting that, if he uses it for the bonus action attack, he does not get to add his wisdom mod for the damage, despite using it for his to-hit. Two-weapon fighting rules take precedence. He still gets a d8 on a light weapon, which is rad. And it it's his main attack, he can still add wisdome to damage.

bolding mine


Components: V, S, M (mistletoe, a shamrock leaf, and a
club or quarterstaff)

bolding mine

in this case you need both the staff/club and the spells reagents to cast the spell.

[Tanarii]

in this case you need both the staff/club and the spells reagents to cast the spell.
His point was you still only need one free hand for all involved M components.

[baronluke]

The other issue is that you have to make sure that the scimitar isn't metal because of druidy reasons your not allowed to use anything metal (stupid I know) but aside from that, you'd be able to cast the spell on a nice stick and then draw your scimitar.

On the note of the polearm master, if you were to use a shillelagh quaterstaff you could use your feat to as a bonus action to strike them again and you'd be using your spell modifier as the bonus. there is no point where these contradict eachother.

[Drackolus]

His point was you still only need one free hand for all involved M components.
Yeah, that is what I meant. Sorry, I'm pretty rambly and that makes it unclear.

The other issue is that you have to make sure that the scimitar isn't metal because of druidy reasons your not allowed to use anything metal (stupid I know)

Actually, the restriction only applies to armor and shields. Which is even more silly. Metal scimitars are okay.

[Arkhios]

Pardon me for side-railing here. I've always felt that druids having proficiency in scimitars was anachronistically weird (9th century middle eastern weapon hardly is a 1st century Gaelic weapon!)
I just recently learned that originally druids were proficient with 'crescent shaped swords', with which Druids' designer referred to sickles, but not knowing their name (or something along those lines) at the time, it was left for the readers to interpret. And most readers were most familiar with scimitars, which was later formalized as the weapon.

So, technically, scimitar proficiency was originally a misunderstanding, which was kept only due to the people having grown accustomed to it :D

Personally, I would use the sickle instead. I'm AFB, but if it doesn't have finesse property, it should. Sickles were used for cutting herbs etc. so it should be a tool for fairly finesse use.

[Tanarii]

D&D Supplement III Eldritch Wizardry 1976
Druids are able to employ the following sorts of weapons: Daggers, sickle or crescent-shaped swords, spears, slings, and oil. They may wear armor of leather, and use wooden shields. They may not use metallic armor.

AD&D 1e 1978
Druid leather wooden club, dagger, dart, hammer, scimitar, sling, spear, staff (wooden is from the shield column)

So the official rules made it clear that 'crescent-shaped' swords was 'scimitar' in less than 2 years after release. Obviously under the original rules it would also include khopesh and a talwar. But other than those swords, I'm not sure what else it could refer to. Are you saying you believe there was an ancient celtic crescent-shaped sword that the author was envisioning?

Edit: He definitely wasn't thinking of sickle, because that was already included. Crescent-shaped swords was in addition to sickle. And ANY sword is an important addition to the weapons list in oD&D or AD&D, because all the best magical weapons are swords. So it's unlikely it's an oversight that a sword of some kind was added to the list. It's a huge power buff compared to the cleric weapon list.