Paladins behaviour [Pathfinder]

[Briawan]

Hi all

Be quiet, is not another thread about chaotic paladins :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I've put my Sarenrae paladin in a classic hero's movie situation: he has to chose between save his mentor life or save his army. 1 beloved NPC vs thousand of faithful crusaders. I should add that in either case the result is not sure.

It seems that he want to go for the mentor and I wonder how interpret this act, or better, how it should be interpreted by Sarenrae.
Can I consider it an act of selfishness? Could he be in danger of losing powers? Can the Goddess stay with him for this act, but then leave him due to his choice?

[JNAProductions]

Have your player explain WHY they're doing this.

If it's "Because I know my mentor-I don't know the army," then that's probably grounds for falling. That's HIGHLY selfish.

If it's "Because my mentor trained me, and people like me. The army, while important, does not have the purity my mentor can teach, and ultimately, more good will come of saving him than saving the army," then that's fine.

Above all, though, TALK TO YOUR PLAYER ABOUT FALLING. Do NOT make them fall if they don't want.

If they do do something very selfish and SHOULD fall, then have them immediately be forced to undertake an atonement quest without losing their powers. The game is supposed to be fun, and falling is not always.

[SirNMN]

I could it interpret in two different ways
first is as you said as a selfish act, but it that enough for his god to abandon him I would question is it evil or just neutral or a is it violation of his code. " A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."
He is still lawful good he and his code is intact so is it an evil act is the question this way
Second and the simpler answer is it is a good act, but by saving 1 life over many it is the lesser good, since either way he is trying to save life

[Kish]

A potentially important thing to note:


Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
[...]
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Chapter 10), as appropriate.
Note a marked lack of any reference to a deity's opinion mattering. If you consider saving the mentor's life rather than the army an evil act (not merely selfish), or such an extremely Chaotic act that you're imposing an alignment shift to Neutral Good, then the paladin falls. If it's not an evil act and the paladin's still Lawful Good, he's still a paladin, though he may be a paladin who Sarenrae doesn't like anymore.

[lord_khaine]

It is a really tough choice actually. And i guess in part depending on how responsible the Paladin is for his followers. This could certainly be seen as a betrayal of his men.
Though at the same time, could also be that the Paladin felt a bigger responsibility/debt towards his Mentor. And thought that his army were grown up and could look after itself.

[GrayDeath]

For this to be clearly answerable we need to know:

1.: How SURE is it that the choice he does not make will die?

2.: Is the danger of their own doing, or will the paladins decision alone decide who gets the short stick?

3.: is there no, absolutely NO, available third option, no matter how unlikely or small?

and lastly just making sure: did you plan this as a "no Win Fall Scenario", if so, remove it, thats terrible GMing. ^^

[Florian]

I don´t see a "fall scenario" here, as no evil acts are involved.

[Tuvarkz]

A potentially important thing to note:

Note a marked lack of any reference to a deity's opinion mattering. If you consider saving the mentor's life rather than the army an evil act (not merely selfish), or such an extremely Chaotic act that you're imposing an alignment shift to Neutral Good, then the paladin falls. If it's not an evil act and the paladin's still Lawful Good, he's still a paladin, though he may be a paladin who Sarenrae doesn't like anymore.

Actually, Golarion divinities have specific paladin codes, that their paladins must adhere to. From Sarenrae's: (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sarenrae)

"I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together."
The paladin's army is certainly composed of his allies, as they are sworn to him. Was the paladin's mentor actively helping him? Or were the two currently dealing with different manners and the mentor otherwise kidnapped and brought over to gain leverage of the paladin? If the latter, Sarenrae's code is clear and the paladin is ought to prioritize saving his army.

[Almarck]

A potentially important thing to note:

Note a marked lack of any reference to a deity's opinion mattering. If you consider saving the mentor's life rather than the army an evil act (not merely selfish), or such an extremely Chaotic act that you're imposing an alignment shift to Neutral Good, then the paladin falls. If it's not an evil act and the paladin's still Lawful Good, he's still a paladin, though he may be a paladin who Sarenrae doesn't like anymore.

That's the generic paladin code. The Pathfinder Golarion setting modifies the Codes and tenants of the religious classes to be more inline with roleplaying in the specific setting.

For instance, Druids from certain dieties in Golarion can wear metal armor just fine, no loss of power required.

Paladins I believe have their codes shifted to allow them to serve non-LG deities, I think largely by having the Paladin's Diety override any conflict due to alignment.

[Briawan]

Thaks all for the quick replay.

Well more deatails:

The mentor could be consider a kind of father for the paladin since, even if he (the paladin) grew up in an army/church academy, his mentor and istructor has been always the link with his family (dead when the paladin was still a child).

In the last years btw they didnt see each other, they just meet up while attending the same crusade against evil.
The mentor is the army general, the paladin one of the commanders but, as you can immagine, the paladin and the other PCs are the heroes at the eyes of the crusaders, the army general is "just" obeyed and respected, due to his role.

During the campaign however, the paladin discovered that his metor is using a kind of drug, and is right this addiction that put him (the mentor) in this dangerous situation.

Now, its mainly a matter of time. I mean, if the party follow the main antagoinist in the last room of the dungeon, they can, maybe, stop the magical and mortal illnes that is decimating the army outside the dungeon (and find a way out of the dungeon).
Instead, if they run to the tower of the dungeon, they can, maybe, save the mentor, who has been "kidnapped" and is going to die soon. Following this rout could bring more and more dies outside.

One consideration: my players are thinking abut split, 2 and 2...this is how every horror movie start :P

Anyway, I'm almost convinced that this choice wont hurt hurt the paladin status in any case. Is not an evil act as you all says, and I dont think is also chaotic enought to shift his alligment to NG, maybe just a bit less L.


Last thing, if anyone of you, while reading this, is thinking about something he has already read...yes, you are right, I'm followin the Kol Korran's Wrath of Righteous AP thread to play my own PF campaign :smallsmile:

[GrayDeath]

In this case, his Goddes`s impetus is clear, his Army.

However as I abhor "strictly dual" choices, why not let them split up? They should have some allies (Army and such) to fill out for CC purposes at least, so, and aim to do both.



Never say a paladins choices are EASY, they`re however often very clear. ^^

[legomaster00156]

In the paladin's situation, and given this scenario, the army definitely comes first. Besides the fact that the army contains more people, the mentor is also dying of his own decisions (assuming there was no compulsion involved in the drug usage). However, again in the paladin's shoes, my second priority is finding and saving or resurrecting the mentor.