The 3.5 Wilder, kind of sucks.

[Zancloufer]

So a quick application of Google-Fu has failed me here.

Anyway last session was working with a player to design a cohort. The Wilder class looked solid for the character concept and Cha synergy but it kind of, well sucks. Internet had no real fixes for it either it seemed.

I mean compared to the Psion:
+ d6 HD, 3/4 BaB, can add 1-6 extra PP to a power for free sometimes, Cha to touch AC.
~ 4+Int Mod skill points (which while 'better' Psion has Int focus so they probably still have more)
- Delayed a level for power access, literally has less than 1/3rd the powers known.

Now I found in my searching a ACF that trades away Volatile Mind (which was as much a debuff as a buff) for free powers (Yay +6 powers known, that is kind of huge). Otherwise though it seems we have a Psion that trades away 2/3rds of their powers and bonus feats for slightly better chassis and a special ability that actually becomes WORSE with level (PP loss INCREASES by ML from enervation).

There any suggestions for optimizations, or even Homebrew(esque) fixes for this class? I mean the it works well for the character it just seems really bad compared to the Psion. Bonus points: Gestalt game; the Wilder's better Chassis is a non-issue for it being "better" than a Psion.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Play a Psion/Anarchic Initiate (Overchannel line optional) and give up?

For a homebrew fix, roughly doubling the powers known ought to do the trick. That and lessening the penalty from Psychic Enervation leaves you with a character somewhere between a Psion and a Psychic Warrior-- you're sturdier than the Psion but not so much as the PsyWar, and you know fewer powers but, with Wild Surge, you can make them hit harder.

For what it's worth, for my Giants and Graveyards overhaul, I suggested

Begins with 2 powers known, and learns one new power every level.
Psychic Enervation burns a number of power points equal to twice the original amount surged for.
Elude Touch applies to all attacks, not just touch attacks.
Can replace Volatile mind (and subsequent improvements) with psionic bonus feats.

All of which helps you be more of a caster-heavy gish.

[SirNMN]

Wilder is like a sorcerer lots of power no a lot of known if my read of it is right

[lord_khaine]

For a homebrew fix, roughly doubling the powers known ought to do the trick. That and lessening the penalty from Psychic Enervation leaves you with a character somewhere between a Psion and a Psychic Warrior-- you're sturdier than the Psion but not so much as the PsyWar, and you know fewer powers but, with Wild Surge, you can make them hit harder.

For what it's worth, for my Giants and Graveyards overhaul, I suggested

Does this not kinda stomb on the toes of the Psywar now?
Maybe try and look at the pathfinder wilder for inspiration?

[Inevitability]

Wilder is like a sorcerer lots of power no a lot of known if my read of it is right

No, psion is like a sorcerer, with the wilder being a heavily gimped sorcerer with no sorcerer-specific support. Remember, they don't have more power points than psions do.

[Zanos]

No, psion is like a sorcerer, with the wilder being a heavily gimped sorcerer with no sorcerer-specific support. Remember, they don't have more power points than psions do.
That doesn't make Wilder bad though, just not as good as the psion.

[Telok]

Wilder is the class you take when you want a Charisma psion and BaB +3 at level 5 before you PrC out. Literally it's +1 hp/level, +1 BaB per 4 levels, trade bonus feats for limited Cha to touch AC, and trade 2/3 of your powers known and access to discipline powers for a class feature that does more and more damage to you as you level up (at 15th level a 5 point wild surge has a 25% chance of dazing you and draining 15 power points, a 1 point power surge has a 5% chance of dazing you and draining 15 power points).

So wilder is like sorcerer in that you gain the most by PrC-ing out as fast as possible. In fact you gain more by taking a PrC out of wilder than you do from sorcerer, because sorcerer doesn't have class features that penalize you for using them.

It's not the powers know that's the problem, it's the wild surge and enervation progression.

[J-H]

With a few powers and some Expanded Knowledge feats, the Wilder makes a passable gish. Vigor+Share Pain with a psicrystal gives ridiculous durability at moderate levels, and once you pick up Schism via EK you can buff/re-buff mid-battle without taking an AOO.
One feat picks up Astral Construct, which gives you a scaling, relevant brute. Using your ability to heighten your ML makes the construct even beefier.

You definitely end up more limited with blasting/options than Psion, but with the way Psionics scales, you only need 2 or 3 of your total powers known for offense.

If your enemies aren't mind-affecting, walk into the middle of a cluster of them and pop off a Hostile Empathic Transfer. At, say, ML 12, that's an AOE 90 damage, Will save half that heals you up to your max HP based on the damage done. At higher levels, your Schism'd action can be pop that AOE every round to heal you while you full attack or do whatever else you're doing.

Between that and Share Pain/Vigor, you are harder to bring down with HP damage than a Warblade or Crusader.

Offensive precognition gives you the to-hit of a martial character, augmented ego whip lets you debuff CHA-based enemies and put low-cha enemies into a coma in 1-2 hits, etc.

So far I have listed a total of 7 powers, all level 4 or below. That still leaves over half your list available.

Going into Slayer gets you full BAB at the cost of 1 ML. Going with Sangehirn (Mind's Eye) reduces your power selection for certain levels, but it also nets you always-on DR and fast healing. Either are good choices; continuing with Wilder nets you a few more powers (via the ACF) and 1 more ML, and is also a viable choice.

[Troacctid]

My fix was to fix their progression so they get higher level powers at the same levels as Psions, and bump their power point progression up by two levels so that they have more ammo than Psions—the idea being that the intended trade-off is for them to know fewer powers, but be able to use those powers better by augmenting them more often and with more points.

Another idea would be to give them some way of recharging PP.

[Cosi]

You could give it self-only SLA (well, PLA) psychic reformation 1/week (or month)/X levels. Might be too much effort for a Cohort though.

[Darrin]

Another idea would be to give them some way of recharging PP.

This is really easy to do. They already have bestow power on their list, just add Midnight Augmentation on top of Wild Surge and they can recharge PP in a minute or so.

Recharging PP without Wild Surge gets pretty darned convoluted.

[Rerednaw]

With 2/3 BAB and light armor/simple prof, 4+ skills points you're doing okay at the low levels.

As for Enervation you lose PP and get dazed:
To recharge PP. (doable by level 3, with Earth Sense, Earth Power(Races of Stone) and Midnight Augmentation(Magic of Icarnum)
To remove the daze effect, move action + save with Quick Recovery (Lords of Madness). Not guaranteed and you're still out a move action even if you succeed but at least you have your standard.

Note that is 4 feats...without bonus racial or flaws it's a bit of a haul before you mitigate these effects barring some cheddar. And even these effects are considered full of fragrant dairy by some.

The Wilder is pretty much a high-risk with modest reward class. It's not terrible or the worst. Psionic powers (or any spell casting with full 9 levels) with a 2/3 BAB isn't too shabby. The class is perfectly serviceable especially once Psychic Reformation comes into play and you judiciously use Wild Surge at least until you can mitigate the Enervation effects and then it's pretty solid mid to low tier 2.

[Troacctid]

This is really easy to do. They already have bestow power on their list, just add Midnight Augmentation on top of Wild Surge and they can recharge PP in a minute or so.

Recharging PP without Wild Surge gets pretty darned convoluted.
That's not what I meant. I'm talking like recover X amount of PP every hour, or whatever. Homebrew fixes.

How does Wild Surge help that trick, btw? It seems like it only hurts. And I believe you'd need a Torc of Power Preservation too, which​ is not cheap.

[Zancloufer]

Play a Psion/Anarchic Initiate (Overchannel line optional) and give up?

For a homebrew fix, roughly doubling the powers known ought to do the trick. That and lessening the penalty from Psychic Enervation leaves you with a character somewhere between a Psion and a Psychic Warrior-- you're sturdier than the Psion but not so much as the PsyWar, and you know fewer powers but, with Wild Surge, you can make them hit harder.

For what it's worth, for my Giants and Graveyards overhaul, I suggested

Begins with 2 powers known, and learns one new power every level.
Psychic Enervation burns a number of power points equal to twice the original amount surged for.
Elude Touch applies to all attacks, not just touch attacks.
Can replace Volatile mind (and subsequent improvements) with psionic bonus feats.

All of which helps you be more of a caster-heavy gish.

Sounds like some of the ideas I was having:

Begins with 2 powers known, and learns one new power every level. - Not sure if it should be that high. Starting with two powers and gaining them at a rate of about 3/4ths a level would give them approximately half the powers known that a Psion does. Also thinking of doing away disciples for them: They can just select any power as long as they can cast powers of that level.
Psychic Enervation burns a number of power points equal to twice the original amount surged for. - Perfect sense. So you have something like a 5-30% chance to pay double PP for an augmentation, but on the flip side you might cast it for free.
Elude Touch applies to all attacks, not just touch attacks. - Cha to AC instead of just touch AC? Is definitely interesting.
Can replace Volatile mind (and subsequent improvements) with psionic bonus feats. - So pretty much that ACF that grants Wilder Expanded Knowledge but instead it can be any bonus feat?


Also letting them learn powers at the same level as psions is just common sense IMHO.

[Darrin]

How does Wild Surge help that trick, btw? It seems like it only hurts. And I believe you'd need a Torc of Power Preservation too, which​ is not cheap.

Wilder 4, take bestow power as your 2nd level power. Costs 3 PP, you need to augment by +3. Wild Surge for 2 PP, Midnight Augmentation gets you 1 PP. So you spend 3 PP, augment by 3 PP (paid for by WS and MA), but get 4 PP out of it. There's a 10 percent chance you'll be dazed and lose 4 PP instead, but over 10 rounds you're up 5 PP on average. It's not something you can do in combat, but a few minutes rest should get you back to full.

[jdizzlean]

i built an educated wilder that i have yet to play, but another way of increasing powers known, and your PP pool is to go as the race Athasian human, from Dragon 319 i think

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1120019

Athasian Human: +2 to any 2 ability scores, Inborn Powers: at 1st lvl +3 bonus PP and a 1st lvl psionic power from the wilder/psion list. at 5th lvl +6 PP total and 2nd lvl power, at 10th lvl +11 PP and 3rd lvl power, at 15th lvl +18 PP and 4th lvl power. all inborn powers are known at a manifestor lvl of class lvl. LA+1

[Telok]

Wilder 4, take bestow power as your 2nd level power. Costs 3 PP, you need to augment by +3. Wild Surge for 2 PP, Midnight Augmentation gets you 1 PP. So you spend 3 PP, augment by 3 PP (paid for by WS and MA), but get 4 PP out of it. There's a 10 percent chance you'll be dazed and lose 4 PP instead, but over 10 rounds you're up 5 PP on average. It's not something you can do in combat, but a few minutes rest should get you back to full.

You can actually do it with just Earth Power alone, it's just much slower and less reliable (pay 4, earth power refunds 1, surge for 2, you spent 3 and regained 4, net +1) as a series of unlucky rolls early on can wipe out your remaining PP if you start with a low current number. On average every 10 tries gets you -9 PP and one enervation of -4 pp, for a net average gain of one pp per two rounds. But as you level the loss of pp from the enervation gets bigger.

Part of the problem is that the Psychic Enervation drains PP equal to Wilder level. Even if you become immune to or can counter the daze you lose PP over time as a penalty for using the surges. Therefore it's best for the character to either not use the wild surge or to PrC out ASAP. Ideally you multiclass or PrC out after level 3 when you can get the +2 wild surge. Wilder 3, Ranger 2 (track & BaB), Slayer++ is a pretty good gish build.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Adding more powers and doing something about psychic enervation (almost) necessary. For fun and profit, I'd also change Wild Surge itself, because that's what the wilder is all about, and it should be awesome. For example: Wild Surge grants a virtual psionic focus, allowing a free metapsionic feat (useful from level 6: surge for 2 and Empower for 9d6 instead of 8d6). Or: Wild Surge is a 1/turn free action and applies to the entire turn (fun with quickened powers, schism, and the like, but comes online at a later level). Or: Wild Surge free PP is increased by your charisma modifier (though the ML boost is not).

[Malroth]

are there any Full Manifesting or 9/10 PRCs a Wilder can qualify for at 3 or 4?

[Rerednaw]

Uh my method I posted above works as long as you are touching the ground and doesn't use Wild Surge at all.
Earth power reduces costs of powers by 1.
Midnight Augmentation with 1 point of essentia into Bestow Power reduces the cost by 1.
Spent 3-1-1 = 1 point recover 2.

12 points a minute and 3 feats isn't bad...considering the hoops you to jump through for arcane or divine spell slot recovery. This way is 100% self reliant and unless you're playing a pirate or flying adventure should work just fine.

[Troacctid]

are there any Full Manifesting or 9/10 PRCs a Wilder can qualify for at 3 or 4?
Shadowmind. Aberrant Paragon if that counts.

[Darrin]

Uh my method I posted above works as long as you are touching the ground and doesn't use Wild Surge at all.
Earth power reduces costs of powers by 1.
Midnight Augmentation with 1 point of essentia into Bestow Power reduces the cost by 1.
Spent 3-1-1 = 1 point recover 2.


It costs 6 PP to augment bestow power, not 5. You need another point of essentia in Midnight Augmentation, which requires 6 levels and another point of essentia from somewhere. It's doable by ECL 6, but requires at least three feats: Earth Sense, Earth Power, and Midnight Augmentation. Unless your race is Azurin, you'll need another incarnum feat (such as Azure Talent) for the second point of essentia.

Wild Surge +2 and Midnight Augmentation requires just one feat. If you don't want to prestige out after Wilder 4, taking Enervation Endurance (Complete Psionic) stretches out how far you can take Wilder without losing too many PP. Get another point of essentia into Midnight Augmentation, and you only need to Wild Surge for +1. 5% failure rate means you should get 19 PP - (Wilder level / 2).

[MHCD]

My fix was to fix their progression so they get higher level powers at the same levels as Psions, and bump their power point progression up by two levels so that they have more ammo than Psions—the idea being that the intended trade-off is for them to know fewer powers, but be able to use those powers better by augmenting them more often and with more points.

Another idea would be to give them some way of recharging PP.

Hm. I like these ideas.

Overall, my thoughts are in line with those who expressed that wilders don't suck, they just aren't as great as psions. That being said, they're kind of in a weird place. They're sort of the psionic counterpart to a sorcerer, but not really, and with a chassis and some abilities to suggest they're kind of gishy. I almost think they're psionic's "camel".

In the few times I've DM'd when psionic classes are in play, I've encouraged those interested in the class to take a look at the Educated Wider and Mantled Wilder ACFs and have been pretty lenient with the custom mantle power choices - especially when cherry-picking seemingly unrelated powers is still for a themed build. One of my all-time favorite characters was essentially a refluffed Sith Lord built from a wilder.

[MilleniaAntares]

Could try backporting the PF version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder/)?

[Psyren]

There any suggestions for optimizations, or even Homebrew(esque) fixes for this class? I mean the it works well for the character it just seems really bad compared to the Psion. Bonus points: Gestalt game; the Wilder's better Chassis is a non-issue for it being "better" than a Psion.

Yes - use the PF version as someone linked, especially with the Artificer, Efficient, Student, or Warrior surge.

Staying within 1st-party 3.5, your best options are Educated Wilder and a couple of Wilder-centric feats like Enervation Endurance.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Sigh. The internet does too have fixes for the wilder. It has fixes for everything in 3e. You're just on the wrong website (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=28.0).

Wilder fixes include condensed class abilities, ACFs, high pp rates, more powers known, and chassis bumps.

[Soranar]

A wilder isn't that bad honestly, as long as it takes the ACF that gives you expanded knowledge a few times.

Sure you don't have many power knowns but augmentation is a game changer and cherry picking the best powers of each discipline is really good.

-astral construct is roughly the equivalent of 9 summon monster spells
-energy ray or crystal shard covers all of your blasting needs
-dominate psionic works against anything no immune to mind affecting
-metamorphosis is helped by the medium BAB and better hp

personally I prefer a wilder to an ardent

[SangoProduction]

Wilder isn't "Bad" but it is worse in just about every way compared to the psion But hey. They can augment higher level earlier.

Also, if Dragonmarks are allowed, the feat Mark of the Dauntless makes you immune to stunning, which is awesome for 2 feats regardless, but also counters the main drawback of the class. And over the course of 10 surges, you can expect to come out ahead on power point value, while still casting as though you were higher level.

[Psyren]

Also, if Dragonmarks are allowed, the feat Mark of the Dauntless makes you immune to stunning, which is awesome for 2 feats regardless, but also counters the main drawback of the class.

Psychic Enervation is daze actually, not stun. IIRC Daze immunity is very hard to get.

[SangoProduction]

Psychic Enervation is daze actually, not stun. IIRC Daze immunity is very hard to get.

It also grants daze immunity. My bad. I didn't look at enervation, and just wrote the first immunity it granted, because...lazy, I guess.

[Darrin]

Psychic Enervation is daze actually, not stun. IIRC Daze immunity is very hard to get.

Mark of the Dauntless is one of the few things in the game that gives you immunity to daze.

[Zancloufer]

Alright I know that 100% on it's own the Wilder isn't terrible. I still have a bunch of issues with it.

It's 90% straight up worse than a Psion. Less than 1/3rd the powers known with a neutered progression hurts alot. Slightly better HP and BaB don't really make up for less than 1/3rd the psionic flexibility. Calling it the Psychic Gish doesn't even work: The Psychic Warrior has almost twice the powers known on a much better chassis with a better casting stat to boot.

The main stay of it the higher level when casting has a pretty big down side : Chance to miss next turn. Also (because missing your turn doesn't suck enough) you loose PP, but it gets worse as you level. You literally have a class feature that gets worse with time. That is some Truenamer level BS right there. Not to mention there is a feat for that: Over-channel. Yes you always take damage but what is worse: Taking 5d8 damage always or 30% chance to miss your turn and loose ~18 PP? Heck as a Psion cast vigor ahead of time for an extra 90 temp HP and you can just damage soak the feedback and never have a chance of missing your next turn.

Also (I mentioned this earlier) this is also looking at the Wilder from a Geasalt build view. Nothing redemable at all in it's power progression or class features compared to the Psion/Psychic Warrior IMHO.

[Soranar]

It's true that the wilder has a lot less power knowns then the psion but

-good psionic powers are far more versatile than a spell, having the right power is far more important than having more powers

-because of this, a psion will waste feats on obtaining those crucial powers outside their discipline meaning that those 5 bonus feats you have as a psion might as well be called expanded knowledge x4 (and 1 bonus feat at level 1 that you can't spend on expanded knowledge)

-It's pretty likely a psion will take overchannel (meaning the feat advantage is even more debatable)

-elude touch works in armor, meaning you have a way to boost your touch AC on top of armor, that is a very rare ability

-wild surge is risky to use in combat but it has very little drawback outside of it

-being CHA based, you already have sense motive + intimidate. It's not ideal for a party face but it gets the job done

-What makes you really shine though is the charm (psionic) power that relies on a charisma check and lets you augment it to last days if you feel like it and you can pull that off very early in the game (level 3!)

-you also get x4 skillpoints per level instead of x2 like a psion (though he is intel based so that tends to even out). Being CHA based with a strong list helps though

-compared to a psychic warrior, your psionic power is leaps and bounds ahead of his (due to the amount of PP you bring to the table compared to his)

-It's fairly easy to compensate for your low power known with psicrowns (which have excellent powers on them, no need for custom ones)

-the right race (say a sparrow hengeyokai) can let you skip on certain powers (like flight) without costing you anything

-I agree that psychic enervation is a steep cost but the benefits are also fairly impressive as long as you concentrate on powers that augment well (like astral construct, charm, dominate, etc)


Is the wilder better than a psion, no

Is he decent? Well yeah, he brings something to the table. With the right power choices he's easily tier 2