Dnd 3.5 casters run out of spells...options?

[Rerednaw]

I am aware of reserve feats but was wondering other than the optional recharge system if there was another way to get spells back for a highly lethal campaign where EL+5 or more is a normal encounter and we go days at a time without rest. Longest streak was 11 encounters, no sleep...at level 1.

I know another approach is to suck it up and go Persistent via DMM but I was looking for an arcane method.

We do have a Dragonfire Adept and a Warlock so some utility is covered.

I am tempted to just go ToB and give up on spellcasting since maneuvers are easy to recover but we really need casters.

Right now we're level 9-10, no arcane (last session newbie rolled a Pixie Wizard but we triggered a Wail of the Banshee trap that insta splattered him and another PC after a poison gas trap that dinged us for 3d6 con first and we don't have Restorations left) and me as divine (drood). I'm running with a sub-opt summoner build (VoP = no items) and it's really starting to hurt. Out of healing after 2 days of non stop combat and on his last wildshape. Animal Companion got CDG 3 fights ago. I figure as soon as he dies I will swap for wizard (preferred) or battle cleric.

So anyone got spell slot recharge tricks? Preferably without exotic class dips, or any at all if possible? PoP and such help with low level slots but quickly get too expensive (as they should in a standard setting, but this game isn't normal).

Any 3.5 is open save 3rd party.

No wealth beyond starting: e.g. my wizard net worth at L6 was 300 gp. When we came into wealth nowhere to shop, no time to craft.

Thanks in advance!

[Karl Aegis]

Get yourself some pearls of power. You should be able to recall a spell every day without resting.

[ryu]

Grip up yonder fortifying bedroll to reduce necessary wizard sleep to 1 hour to prepare spells. Also grip up yonder rope trick an alarm spell and the safest place you can find. Congrats. Now you can rotate sleep and spell prep much more efficiently. For level 1 survival? Grip up focused specialist conjurer abrupt jaunt precious apprentice and fiery burst. You're now either the person in the party with the highest staying power, or at least actively competing with the druid. Certainly outclassing the cleric in most cases.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Druids (as well as other divine casters) don't actually need to rest to regain spells.
They just need an hour of meditation at a specific time each day (though the recent casting limit still applies, but that's hardly an issue if you've been running dry for days).
If you're really strapped for time you can prepare up to a quarter of your total spells available in 15 minutes and leave the other slots open.

Echoing Spell can do a lot for caster longevity if you can apply free metamagic (so Spelldancer dip, DMM, Ultimate Magus or just general MM reducers) and boost your CL.
Incantatrix can go Persistent too, but for Echoing you'll need Body outside Body (so level 13).

Primal Scholar (SoX) can get spell slots back with Action Points. Unfettered Heroism grants you 1 action point/round and can be persisted.
Twin/Repeat Sanctum Mage's Lucubration can get back 1 5th level or lower spell as well as itself. Needs metamagic reducers though and level 11 at the earliest.

The least cheesy option is to theurge with a Warlock/Binder or take a class like Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator.

Or you could just go Necropolitan/buy a Necklace of Adaption and sleep in a Bag of Holding to regain spells while your party members run around.:smalltongue:

Edit: A Ring of Sustenance may also help if your DM goes with the PF Interpretation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-sustenance/).

[flappeercraft]

Well the Belt of the dread emperor from BoVD can be useful for when you can afford it although it is pretty expensive. Although I would reccomend just using it on yourself if you have a way to get access to regeneration or fast healing.

[Rerednaw]

Sorry how does a Jade Phoenix Mage or RKV recharge spells? For losing casting I hope it's a great trick...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sorry how does a Jade Phoenix Mage or RKV recharge spells? For losing casting I hope it's a great trick...

It doesn't, but you can save your spells for when you need them and deal with most stuff with maneuvers, which are per encounter.

[Bronk]

... a highly lethal campaign where EL+5 or more is a normal encounter and we go days at a time without rest. Longest streak was 11 encounters, no sleep...at level 1.

...

We do have a Dragonfire Adept and a Warlock so some utility is covered.

I am tempted to just go ToB and give up on spellcasting since maneuvers are easy to recover but we really need casters.

Right now we're level 9-10, no arcane (last session newbie rolled a Pixie Wizard but we triggered a Wail of the Banshee trap that insta splattered him and another PC after a poison gas trap that dinged us for 3d6 con first and we don't have Restorations left) and me as divine (drood). I'm running with a sub-opt summoner build (VoP = no items) and it's really starting to hurt. Out of healing after 2 days of non stop combat and on his last wildshape. Animal Companion got CDG 3 fights ago. I figure as soon as he dies I will swap for wizard (preferred) or battle cleric.

...

(as they should in a standard setting, but this game isn't normal).



I think you have more than one problem here.

First is that you're in a really tough game. That's on the DM. Two days without sleep? If he's making the game tough like this, he should be making everyone drop from exhaustion as well.

Second is that your fellow players are either classes that don't run out of resources, or die. Because of that, they might be rushing into battle more often than they should be. Try to get them to slow down... eventually the traps will catch up to them, if nothing else. Talk to them, and get them to back off every once in a while! Unless you're the only one who cares about their character?

If you can't get a handle on either of those problems, go with your first instinct, a tome of battle character, preferably one that can heal themselves and get rid of those pesky status effects as well, because even with fractional spell recovery, you're going to just run out again.

[Rerednaw]

I think you have more than one problem here.

First is that you're in a really tough game. That's on the DM. Two days without sleep? If he's making the game tough like this, he should be making everyone drop from exhaustion as well.

Second is that your fellow players are either classes that don't run out of resources, or die. Because of that, they might be rushing into battle more often than they should be. Try to get them to slow down... eventually the traps will catch up to them, if nothing else. Talk to them, and get them to back off every once in a while! Unless you're the only one who cares about their character?

If you can't get a handle on either of those problems, go with your first instinct, a tome of battle character, preferably one that can heal themselves and get rid of those pesky status effects as well, because even with fractional spell recovery, you're going to just run out again.
Um yes I did believe I mention that this was an atypical game. :biggrin:

We had full penalties from fatigue and exhaustion. At level one: After the first days where we tried to fort up, sleeping up top trees, or heading to the main remote encampment (40 people) all failed, we decided to head back to town. These additional encounters occurred while were making the fastest time possible back to the capital city. When we tried to rest in town we then were attacked several times day and night by endless hordes that set the buildings on fire and spawned undead from most of the town's citizens. When we withdrew to the basement were again attacked several more times while we desperately tried to find a safe place to fort up and camp and actively attempted to avoid encounters. By the end my wizard was the only surviving original character.

[Vizzerdrix]

1- Diablous divine minion of sebek into fiend of possesion would give you staying power. When you need a rest just posses a coin in someones pocket.

2- Have you considdered using psionics for the recharge? Maybe on a warforged would be best

[Lazymancer]

buy a Necklace of Adaption and sleep in a Bag of Holding to regain spells while your party members run around.:smalltongue:
Can't you just ... not close the bag?


Edit: A Ring of Sustenance may also help if your DM goes with the PF Interpretation.
I've got this.

... grants you the benefits of a full 8 hours of rest—including the elimination of fatigue or exhaustion, natural healing, and the ability to prepare or ready arcane spells—over the course of a single hour.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Another option to cut spell refresh time is Mage of the Arcane Order and Uncanny Forethought. You still need to rest, but you don't need to meditate to prepare spells.
MotAO is limited to 1/2 your CL in spell levels, Uncanny Forethought is limited to 1 slot/int-mod

There's also the feat Kiss of Dawn from the Ravenloft book Heroes of Light that lets you automatically regain all your spells at dawn, but it's not an official source iirc.


Can't you just ... not close the bag?
Ask your DM? It's not like going Necropolitan is a bad decision for an arcane caster, and Necklace of Adaption is pretty useful for anything that needs to breath/isn't immune to poison.


I've got this.
Heward's Fortifying Bedroll only works once every 48 hours.
It's also (slightly) more expensive than the Ring of Sustenance. On the upside it's faster and doesn't take up your ring slot.

[Lazymancer]

Ask your DM?
Who watches the watchers? Whom doth the DM ask?

I don't think anything contradicts this idea, if bag is just a portal to another dimension.


It's also (slightly) more expensive than the Ring of Sustenance.
I'd say it's cheaper. While one character can get benefits every other day, the bedroll itself can be used every day. It's an item for two characters.


I'm not telling bedroll is superior, it simply doesn't require any rulings - unlike the ring. And even sleeping every other day would be an improvement over the nonsense OP's group had been through.

[Epic Legand]

The player does not sound like he hates the game, he just wants advice on how to make a build set up for that kind of campaign. TOB def looks like a solid choice. As would reserve feats if staying a caster. Have you guys tried Rope Trick yet ( for resting ?). At 9-10th level nondetection is a choice, sounds like DM likes to have people chase you, now give him an excuse to let you rest.
In a campaign I was in with non stop fights, I built a recaster, with residual metamagic. I would cast manyteeth( lasts 3 rounds), extended( for free with class 5/day), then cast it again next round ( while keeping concentration with sonorous hum. Thus getting 6 rounds of teeth with each set. Or casting it the second time with a wand...which then went off at my level and with my DC.
Rod of extend, pearls of power both help, but sounds to me like if your going to stay as a caster, you want a gish. All day buffs, then act as you want. I second the ideas on the bedrolls/rings. You must clearly assume you will gain no useful magic items as well. Good luck, actually sounds like a fun campaign.

[Anthrowhale]

Sha'ir might work particularly well here, because you can draw from the entire sorcerer/wizard list (+ some domains) at will. There seems to be no rest mechanic so the only real limitations are based on diplomacy and spells per day. Diplomacy is good for avoiding fights anyways and persistent spells address the spells per day limitation.

The sources of Persistent Spell are Spelldancer (except Necromancy and Evocation), Incantatrix 3 (3+Int/day), Illumian+Sacred Exorcist 1 (2/day), Anima Mage 5,7,9.

So, something like an Illumian Sha'ir 5/Incantatrix 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 could be pretty effective. You have a huge range of spells and can persist ~8 constantly without sleeping. For instance, you could potentially have Thunderlance, Evard's Menacing Tentacles, Gutsnake, and Toothed Tentacle always on making you a damage machine.

[Rerednaw]

Sha'ir might work particularly well here, because you can draw from the entire sorcerer/wizard list (+ some domains) at will. There seems to be no rest mechanic so the only real limitations are based on diplomacy and spells per day. Diplomacy is good for avoiding fights anyways and persistent spells address the spells per day limitation.

The sources of Persistent Spell are Spelldancer (except Necromancy and Evocation), Incantatrix 3 (3+Int/day), Illumian+Sacred Exorcist 1 (2/day), Anima Mage 5,7,9.

So, something like an Illumian Sha'ir 5/Incantatrix 3/Sacred Exorcist 1 could be pretty effective. You have a huge range of spells and can persist ~8 constantly without sleeping. For instance, you could potentially have Thunderlance, Evard's Menacing Tentacles, Gutsnake, and Toothed Tentacle always on making you a damage machine.

Huh, interesting. Thanks I will take a look!

[Metahuman1]

I only skimmed so I might have missed it, but, consider the Incantatrix. It can persist spells as an arcanist.

Or a dip into Cleric and/or Sacred Excorsist and some Geometer levels could get the spells persistable via DMM.

[Anthrowhale]

Huh, interesting. Thanks I will take a look!

You'll need to maximize spellcraft without items, which was discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21873256&postcount=13).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Psions have a couple good recharge mechanics, mostly by using various methods (Earth Power, Midnight Augmentation, etc) to reduce the cost of Bestow Power to 1 pp, such that manifesting it gives you a net pp boost.

[Bronk]

It's not a great class, or even a good one, but the Blighter regains spells through deforestation with just a full round action.

[Deeds]

Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick

Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, prepare spells, and come out swinging.

Also, why does everything want to kill your party? Is this some kind of 9 layers of hell kinda deal?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick
Rope Trick

Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, prepare spells, and come out swinging.

Also, why does everything want to kill your party? Is this some kind of 9 layers of hell kinda deal?

Rope Trick can be dispelled from the outside with no problem. So it's not really what i'd call a secure resting place.
It's more "Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, get your ass dumped into the middle of an enemy encounter with readied actions in the middle of the night, die messily." if your enemy has any idea that you're using it (or your DM just doesn't want you to rest).

In fact i'd call it less secure than just resting on the material plane if your enemy has spellcasters, because at least on the material plane you can see/hear them coming.

[Coidzor]

Honestly in this case, suggesting your DM look into D&D 5e, which actually can somewhat accomodate doing crazy things like that as the standard operating procedure due to having made variant rules to accomodate it.

Or leaving. It's a pretty unreasonable premise, tbh.

[Deeds]

Rope Trick can be dispelled from the outside with no problem. So it's not really what i'd call a secure resting place.
It's more "Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, get your ass dumped into the middle of an enemy encounter with readied actions in the middle of the night, die messily." if your enemy has any idea that you're using it (or your DM just doesn't want you to rest).

In fact i'd call it less secure than just resting on the material plane if your enemy has spellcasters, because at least on the material plane you can see/hear them coming.
Readied actions outside of combat? Sounds like that doesn't work. "I ready Haste and cast it upon spoting an enemy."

If your enemies can dispel a target in another dimension then you're just screwed.

[Anthrowhale]

If your enemies can dispel a target in another dimension then you're just screwed.

A transdimensional AoE spell works directly on occupants of the rope trick.

[Bronk]

Rope Trick can be dispelled from the outside with no problem. So it's not really what i'd call a secure resting place.
It's more "Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, get your ass dumped into the middle of an enemy encounter with readied actions in the middle of the night, die messily." if your enemy has any idea that you're using it (or your DM just doesn't want you to rest).

In fact i'd call it less secure than just resting on the material plane if your enemy has spellcasters, because at least on the material plane you can see/hear them coming.

Only if they can find it, since the window is invisible.

Then, if the rope is pulled in, it can only be affected by an area dispel, and that can only affect the invisibility of the window itself unless the offenders have the transdimensional spell feat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Readied actions outside of combat? Sounds like that doesn't work. "I ready Haste and cast it upon spoting an enemy."

If your enemies can dispel a target in another dimension then you're just screwed.

Rope Trick leaves an invisible window on the plane you cast it. Any spellcaster can find it with Detect Magic or See Invisibility and target it with Dispel Magic. No dispelling in other dimensions required.

As for readied actions outside of combat, combat begins as soon as the monster group finds the Rope Trick (for the monsters, anyway).
Have everyone but the spellcaster ready actions for the party appearing, spellcasters dispels Rope Trick, party is screwed.

Or just roll for surprise normally if you think that's too unfair.
It doesn't change the point that Rope Trick is not safe to rest in, particularly when you have enemies actually looking for you.


Only if they can find it, since the window is invisible.

Then, if the rope is pulled in, it can only be affected by an area dispel, and that can only affect the invisibility of the window itself unless the offenders have the transdimensional spell feat.
The window is part of the Rope Trick spell and it's on the material plane. There is no separate Invisibility spell. And Dispel Magic can explicitly target spells if you can perceive them.

Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.
If you can see it (Detect Magic, See Invis, True Seeing, Arcane Sight, etc) you can target it with a targetted Dispel Magic.
If you succeed on the dispel check Rope Trick is dispelled. If Rope Trick is dispelled it ends (duh).
And if Rope Trick ends?

Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.

[Deeds]

Fair enough. I ready my cellphone and cast reddit.

[Bronk]

Rope Trick leaves an invisible window on the plane you cast it. Any spellcaster can find it with Detect Magic or See Invisibility and target it with Dispel Magic. No dispelling in other dimensions required.

An invisible window into an extradimensional space. Spells don't, by default, cross planar boundaries.



The window is part of the Rope Trick spell and it's on the material plane. There is no separate Invisibility spell. And Dispel Magic can explicitly target spells if you can perceive them.

If you can see it (Detect Magic, See Invis, True Seeing, Arcane Sight, etc) you can target it with a targetted Dispel Magic.
If you succeed on the dispel check Rope Trick is dispelled. If Rope Trick is dispelled it ends (duh).
And if Rope Trick ends?


The 'dispel magic' spell doesn't target spells, it targets spellcasters, creatures, objects. If the people in the rope trick have taken the rope in with them, it can't be targeted, because it isn't on the same plane.

The spell can also dispel an area, but only the parts in the area of effect. That effect doesn't cross dimensional boundaries (both in general and as specifically mentioned in the 'rope trick' spell), so only the invisibility of the window is affected, not the other properties of the spell, including the extradimensional space itself. If the rope trick is full, no one else can get in, and they are safe.

[Rerednaw]

Thread hijack re-jack.
No arcane in party. ATM. Though all my arcanes I usually play have Rope Trick. But we are carrying macguffins of nuclear meltdown in our haversacks for safekkeping. We cannot bring a extra-dimensional space into a Rope Trick so we leave these artifacts outside...um. Well someone stays outside to guard.

Basically adventure is on countdown to doom, stopping to rest for a night always results in bad things. Like at level 1 losing the capital city.

I do like the bedroll idea though and some of the others have promise. Spelldancer looks fun though pretty feat intensive.

[Gildedragon]

Try the spellpoints variant with the extra variant that ties spellpoints to the fatigued and exhausted conditions
ETA: it's called Vitalizing spell points.
There's a fee alchemical substances that reduce fatigue. So your wizard would be pumping themselves with icewild lichen paste

[Elrak]

I would second Reserve Feats, Minor Shapeshift or Summon Elemental reserve would be good choices to preserve spells and retain some functionality until the big guns are needed. Normally reserve feats are not ideal (mostly because feats are so scarce) but under the given circumstances I think that the added staying power should compensate for it.

[Bronk]

Thread hijack re-jack.
No arcane in party. ATM. Though all my arcanes I usually play have Rope Trick. But we are carrying macguffins of nuclear meltdown in our haversacks for safekkeping. We cannot bring a extra-dimensional space into a Rope Trick so we leave these artifacts outside...um. Well someone stays outside to guard.

Basically adventure is on countdown to doom, stopping to rest for a night always results in bad things. Like at level 1 losing the capital city.

I do like the bedroll idea though and some of the others have promise. Spelldancer looks fun though pretty feat intensive.

Hmm... Yeah, it looks like your DM won't actually let you catch your breath at all then? No matter what?

I was going to suggest switching to wizard or cleric with the travel domain next, and just teleporting away, but I think the DM is just going to hound you.... it sounds like if you try that, everyone will suddenly have planar tracking. If you switch to cleric and use the 'word of recall' spell at level 11, you'll either be mysteriously followed or mysteriously ambushed. If you use 'rope trick', which has no RAW interactions with other extradimensional spaces by the way, everyone will suddenly have had 'transdimensional spell' the whole time.

Maybe there's a story way though? Have you tried using the artifacts? Maybe one of them is sentient or something?

It sounds like you're mostly having a good time, but at the same time you're getting seriously miffed about your caster characters, so I think it's bothering you more than you think. I really think you should just go with the flow... this DM doesn't want casters in his group. Try a crusader, they seem pretty self sufficient.

[Nupo]

Jump in your caster level 9 rope trick, go to sleep, prepare spells, and come out swinging.
And a kobold peaking around the corner sees you go it. Gets some of his buddies with picks, and they collapse the ceiling in that spot.


Dnd 3.5 casters run out of spells...options?Use a wand.

[Deeds]

And a kobold peaking around the corner sees you go it. Gets some of his buddies with picks, and they collapse the ceiling in that spot.

Use a wand.
If the DM is inclined to screw he screws you. It's a shame no one spotted the Rouge kobold with ranks in spellcraft. It's also too bad the ogre sundered your wand.

OP, a TOB class sounds good but for arcane flavor you could play a warlock.

[Arbane]

Use a wand.

You missed the part where his team has no money, right? And every time they enter a city it gets leveled?

[Bronk]

You missed the part where his team has no money, right? And every time they enter a city it gets leveled?

Heh! Maybe that's the meta-plot! Everyone's chasing them around so they don't come to their city! It'll probably get resolved when they start collecting payments to stay away...

*****

Still, I've been thinking about the druid's description in the opening post, a 'sub-opt' 9 to 10th level vow of peace summoner druid. Considering that this is a character in a game with no items, he should be doing better than fine, with bonuses and 5 extra feats. Maybe just stop summoning and changing form so much, and stick with the forms longer. Also, remember that wild shapes are per day, and refresh without having to do anything special.

Plus, use one of those vow feats to get an upgraded intelligent exalted companion that can also take vow of poverty, and a monk dip wouldn't hurt either to add AC and lethal unarmed strikes to your attack routines...

[Arbane]

Rerednaw - are any of the original characters still alive? Because I'm wondering if the current crew of PCs have any in-character idea what they're doing or why.

(I'm reminded of the Great Gamma World Death March (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?108315-The-Great-Gamma-World-Death-March).)

[Rerednaw]

Rerednaw - are any of the original characters still alive? Because I'm wondering if the current crew of PCs have any in-character idea what they're doing or why.

(I'm reminded of the Great Gamma World Death March (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?108315-The-Great-Gamma-World-Death-March).)

In the end, there can be only one. My wizard was the last, but seeing how lethal the quest was he shared details with 'trusted confidants' a.k.a. alts. We also brief new PC's when they join.

[Anthrowhale]

You might consider a no-sleep race. Warforged (Con+2, Wis-2, Chr-2), Necropolitan <x>, Neraphim, Savage Progression Aassimar (Chr+2), or a savage progression Tiefling (Dex+2, Chr-2).

You might also consider Persistent Permeable Form as a means of hiding. Hiding inside of a rock is good enough in most situations, and it might solve the odd-man-out situation with rope trick.

[Arbane]

You might also consider Persistent Permeable Form as a means of hiding. Hiding inside of a rock is good enough in most situations, and it might solve the odd-man-out situation with rope trick.

"And then the Xorn Swarm attacks!"

[Xarteros]

I am tempted to just go ToB and give up on spellcasting since maneuvers are easy to recover but we really need casters.

Although many might consider it horrendously broken; in the Swordsage entry of ToB, at the very end is a variant section called "Adaptation". Note, it's little more than a suggestion, but it emphasises ways to make it suit the theme, with the end goal of creating a more magic-themed Swordsage (but still martial in a fashion).

It mentions that you could potentially drop the Swordsages Light Armour proficiency and reduce their HD to d6, but allow them to take arcane spells in place of maneuvers (it doesn't actually specify whether it means you can select spells alongside maneuvers, or if your entire maneuver list is replaced by arcane spells).

It mentions that they would be cast as if it were a maneuver, so the implication is that you recover spells as if they were maneuvers, and expend them as if they were maneuvers.

Just a thought, and it's not exactly RAW-certified, just something that is suggested by the book for alternate themes

[Dagroth]

If you can start with at least some kind of magic items... a Warlock with a Ring of Spell Storing could be potentially very bad-arse. Get Fell Flight, cast it into the Ring. Give Ring to a different player who then casts Fell Flight and gives the Ring back. Repeat until entire party has Fell Flight (which lasts 24 hours).

[Calthropstu]

I recommend rope trick. Ten hours of near absolute safety. Alternatively, a cleric can take plane shift. Shift to a plane with time distortion where 1 hour there equals 1 round in the prime material. Power rest there then go back. It will eat both of the cleric's max level spell slots, but if the GM is running you this ragged it may well be worth it.
Alternatively, have your entire team take the leadership feat and they all recruit wizards.
Another alternative is to begin spamming dominate. Take control of the enemies and use them as meat shields. Summons are great in a pinch, but stealing the enemy's mooks is better. And if you can manage to snag a spell caster...
Another alternative is start cheesing planar binding.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... A StP Erudite warforge with the dark template and a major bloodline could do the trick. Or a dread necromancer. You could then start pushing a swarm ahead of the party.