3.5 How to challenge a highly optimized party?

[DGIF2015]

Party is 13th level and I think i'm too green of a DM to deal with a party that can deal hundreds of HP of damage a round.......any advice?

[Karl Aegis]

As long as they are expending resources you should be fine. Maybe toss in a few more dudes than usual at the edges of the fight.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Oneshot items (potions, scrolls, alchemical items, etc) that boost AC or grant temp hp, Blur/Displacement-like effects, difficult terrain/cover, the Martial Study feat for a good counter, DR with uncommon counters, weapons like Harpoons/Nets and BFC effects can help.

[KindOfGoodGuy]

Give them a challenge that requires brain, not brawn. In the end of the day it doesn't matter how much damage they can do if the answer to the problem doesn't call for violence.

[DGIF2015]

Great suggestions!! Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Rerednaw]

Story.
Plot.
Negotiation.
Diplomacy.
Puzzles.

Emphasis on the role not roll.

Granted many group prefer a Diablo-esque (kill, loot, reward, rinse and repeat) experience. Nothing wrong that either. Whatever is the most fun.

Good luck!

[Cosi]

More details would help. If it's just Ubercharger-type piles of damage to a single target, you just need to make encounters larger than you currently are (so like one CR 11 + a bunch of CR 9s rather than one CR 13). If it's AoE damage, that's a little harde, though AoE immunities are relatively easy to come by. Also, don't forget that monsters at those levels tend to be extremely mobile. There's no reason for a Dragon to close to melee when it can keep strafing with its breath weapon, or a Devil to engage in a drawn out fight when it can keep harassing with teleport.

[flappeercraft]

'Tell me about it'. I'm DMing a cheese campaigb at 9th level where there is a Pugilist Necropilitan Grey Elf Tashalatora Psychic warrior. A Dragonwrought Loredrake White Wyrmspawn etc Kobold Neceopolitan Gestalt Wizard Tainted sorcerer Master specialist Pugilist Incantatrix. Both of those are immune to damage and the second can cast 9th level spells. Then a Regular Human sorcerer 9 and a Druid who is joining.

What I learned from this is that you either use stuff with higher CR which in my case I use monsters with CR 9 as small threats and CR 12-13 as mini bosses. Or do non combat threats such as mind puzzles, diplomacy missions, etc. Or as another option optimize yourself

[denthor]

The best way is start them at 1st level make go through the low levels making the bad choices that lead to the players they want to be.

New a guy that was always saying how great it would be to have power X at this level but never chose skills or feats that granted power X why they were weak choices when he could aquire them. So you never have to deal with it.

Other options level drain opponents. This allows a saving throw they may miss when drained and have to throw the dice.

Saw an 11th level druid throw a 2 for a failure on save or turn to stone.

[John Longarrow]

Stat damage can be very effective at this range. A couple very low CR monsters can still own a party if the party isn't prepared to deal with them. Melee-centric groups tend to get spooked the first time 6 shadows move in and attack the party tank. Not because they are afraid he's going to take too much damage, but when they realize his low touch AC is going to get him killed while his STR of 32 drops to 2.

[Soranar]

In case of emergency there's always rock falls, everyone dies.

But, considering how many undead you have in your group...

A single high level cleric optimized to turn undead could give them a very bad day

[sleepyphoenixx]

Stat damage can be very effective at this range. A couple very low CR monsters can still own a party if the party isn't prepared to deal with them. Melee-centric groups tend to get spooked the first time 6 shadows move in and attack the party tank. Not because they are afraid he's going to take too much damage, but when they realize his low touch AC is going to get him killed while his STR of 32 drops to 2.
I rather doubt that a "highly optimized" ECL 13 group lacks a way to deal with incorporeal enemies.

Or didn't consider ways to boost touch AC for that matter.


But, considering how many undead you have in your group...

A single high level cleric optimized to turn undead could give them a very bad day

You don't even need to optimize.
An equal level cleric with 10 cha and the Sun domain has a 55% chance to no-save one-shot one of them if they're not protected from positive energy, and if they are no amount of optimization is going to help.

The problem with that kind of "you're dead, no save" tactic is that it's immensely frustrating for your players, so most DMs dislike using them.

[John Longarrow]

I rather doubt that a "highly optimized" ECL 13 group lacks a way to deal with incorporeal enemies.

Or didn't consider ways to boost touch AC for that matter.



You don't even need to optimize.
An equal level cleric with 10 cha and the Sun domain has a 55% chance to no-save one-shot one of them if they're not protected from positive energy, and if they are no amount of optimization is going to help.

The problem with that kind of "you're dead, no save" tactic is that it's immensely frustrating for your players, so most DMs dislike using them.

Hmm.. if they are optimized to make sure everyone has a high touch AC, especially when some of the optimized builds TANK AC to damage... I'd bet they'd be optimized against positive energy/turning to. That tends to be a couple feats if they are smart about it rather than skipping feats that let them keep their to hit up while doing a boat load of damage.

If he hasn't used touch attacks or stat damage before the players may not have thought to protect against it. Likewise most BFC and save or die can be heavily mitigated, but you can't do it all without totally breaking wealth by level.

[Sword-Geass]

Here (www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=578) you may find some ideas on how to challenge them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hmm.. if they are optimized to make sure everyone has a high touch AC, especially when some of the optimized builds TANK AC to damage... I'd bet they'd be optimized against positive energy/turning to. That tends to be a couple feats if they are smart about it rather than skipping feats that let them keep their to hit up while doing a boat load of damage.

If he hasn't used touch attacks or stat damage before the players may not have thought to protect against it. Likewise most BFC and save or die can be heavily mitigated, but you can't do it all without totally breaking wealth by level.

Honestly, touch AC is such an obvious weakness that it'd be strange if it weren't covered. Especially since it's a favorite target of spellcasters, not just incorporeal enemies. It's also not that expensive.
The same applies to positive energy vs undead of course. A ring of positive energy immunity is well within their WBL and kind of a necessity for an undead PC so it'd be strange if they overlooked it.

BFC and SoD/SoL is of course always an option, but that also depends on book access, system knowledge and the campaigns access to magic items.
You can get pretty high saves rather cheaply if you go book diving, and by level 13 i'd kind of expect Soulfire armor at least, and a cheap Freedom of Movement item is also likely for melee characters.

What's not likely for at least 2 more levels is Mind Blank, so any no-save mind-affecting spell is a decent pick.

But in the end the only way to challenge an optimized party is optimizing your monsters. Straight from the MM just doesn't cut it against competent players. You may be able to surprise them once, but cheap tricks won't work for long.
Not to mention that every fight targetting their weaknesses is kind of boring and breaks SoD.

[Cosi]

The best way is start them at 1st level make go through the low levels making the bad choices that lead to the players they want to be.

New a guy that was always saying how great it would be to have power X at this level but never chose skills or feats that granted power X why they were weak choices when he could aquire them. So you never have to deal with it.

In practice, this has a decent chance of making people optimize more. The most powerful builds don't sacrifice much power on the front end. Wizard/Incantatrix isn't giving up much for free Persistent Spell.


But in the end the only way to challenge an optimized party is optimizing your monsters. Straight from the MM just doesn't cut it against competent players. You may be able to surprise them once, but cheap tricks won't work for long.
Not to mention that every fight targetting their weaknesses is kind of boring and breaks SoD.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Using higher level monsters works pretty well. You could look at stuff out of the Epic Level Handbook. Also, using multiple enemies. It's fairly easy to ensure that any one opponent dies without getting an action, but much harder to do so for a dozen enemies.

[Aetis]

If you are finding it difficult to challenge the party at this level of play, then I recommend you call the campaign and start anew at lv 1s.

It's only going to get more difficult to challenge the party as their levels go up, and your game's quality is going to go down.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Using higher level monsters works pretty well. You could look at stuff out of the Epic Level Handbook. Also, using multiple enemies. It's fairly easy to ensure that any one opponent dies without getting an action, but much harder to do so for a dozen enemies.

If you just go for higher CR enemies you have the problem that you run into abilities that the party has no way of countering at their current level, no matter their optimization. And that's no fun for anyone.
After all the fights are supposed to be challenging, not impossible.
Sure, it works for dumb brute monsters, but those are just filler to soak up hits at the higher levels anyway.

I also think it's more interesting to optimize monsters to challenge the party instead of just going for higher level monsters. After a while they know most of the standard MM statblocks, so combat gets way to predictable.
Giving your encounters some tricks that players may not be used to seeing on the other side of the table makes them more engaging instead of just going for bigger numbers.

[noce]

High level Wizard conjurer specialist with the abrupt jaunt alternative class feature.
When they try to charge or otherwise attack you, use that class feature.
There are many immediate casting spells that help your defenses, when abrupt jaunt is not appropriate use one of those, or use a swift spell in the subsequent round.
Always try to use both your standard and your swift/immediate actions.

If the problem is damage, buy a cube of force. Press face 5. Now you ignore all damage untill the cube runs out of charges.
Couple this with stoneskin or similar spells and the cube will last longer, remember that a NPC is less hindered by the material cost of spells.

[Cosi]

If you just go for higher CR enemies you have the problem that you run into abilities that the party has no way of countering at their current level, no matter their optimization. And that's no fun for anyone.

I don't really think that's true. Do you have some example of that? The first thing that springs to mind is stuff like the Balor's at-will blasphemy, but you don't particularly get counters to that so much as immunity. By 13th level, particularly with optimization, I don't think there are abilities you flat can't deal with.

Also, grabbing higher level monsters is a much simpler solution than writing your own stuff.

[Goodkill]

throw in an optimized or semi-optimized villain. i did this with a not-so-optimized party without due consideration as the DM, and the party was almost wiped out (i think i cheated on the party's behalf because i felt bad ... i thought of it like action points). it was a halberd wielding fighter i think with weapon master levels, nothing super fancy, but it was pretty effective at killing party members :smallbiggrin:

[flappeercraft]

throw in an optimized or semi-optimized villain. i did this with a not-so-optimized party without due consideration as the DM, and the party was almost wiped out (i think i cheated on the party's behalf because i felt bad ... i thought of it like action points). it was a halberd wielding fighter i think with weapon master levels, nothing super fancy, but it was pretty effective at killing party members :smallbiggrin:

If you find the build could you send it to me?

[Bucky]

If they're truly high-op you can use oddball challenges that simply can't be solved by a few hundred damage. You hit them with things like swarm entities, anti-magic field projectiles, extreme-range snipers, a Wall of Stone + mindsight + incorporeal attack combo that forces them to break through a new wall every time they land a hit, energy-immune troll Warblades that must be dispelled before they can be killed, evasive summoners where outlasting the onslaught is merely a draw...

On the other hand, these encounters might easily be too much for a lower tier party BECAUSE they can't be solved by a few hundred damage.

[Bonzai]

I once had a similar dilemma. I started my campaign at lvl 1, and eventually stopped it at lvl 22. I stopped it there because it was a natural stopping point, but also because the party power level had escalated to a point where anything that would have legitimately caused them to sweat would have had to have one shotted one or two of them in the opening volley, and I don't like playing that way.

The party was;

Elf Beguiler/fate spinner/guild mage. Insanely high DC illusions and mind control ability. Anything that got thrown at the party could wind up as a pet. Infact she had a white Slaadi pet walking around with her before she was done. Illusions could misdirect and confuse the enemy and she can easily control the battle field. As a guild mage, she also had a bigger than normal spell pool to draw from, and gave her some direct offense. However her true power came from her fate spinner levels. She took luck out of the equation. The group dutifully maxed out their saves, so if they flubbed they got a reroll. If the monster/npc passed the parties high DC, they would have to pass it twice.

Human Psion/cleric/psion theurge. This was the party's devoted problem solver. He was the Swiss Army knife for the team. With his insane arsenal of powers/ spells, he had a solution for most problems that occur, and if he didn't, it was usually a psychic reformation away. His biggest ace in the hole was his ability to interrupt my turn and take an immediate action. Whenever I managed to get the drop on the party, he got a chance to pull their bacon out of the fire. So in essence he took out the element of surprise.

Elf Ranger/OotBI/something else. In a nutshell he was a gattling gun. He fired out tons of arrows a round, maxing out his ranged damage. However that was only part of it. The warmage in the party would buff his damage further with fire damage, half of which was unresistable. By the end of the day he was dealing out over 300 damage a round, that could be split up over multiple targets. On top of this, he had the mage slayer feat, and the ability to strip away his targets SR with each shot. This helped take out resistant targets and enemy casters. So not only did this character deal insane damage, but also helped set up the rest of the rest of the party.

Spellscale warmage/dracolexi. Sadly this character was fairly marginalized. His main contribution to the team was buffing the Archers damage output with fire spells enhanced by his searing spell feat. After that he was kind of obsolete, as the archer offered more consistent damage. It was a big help, but after that it kinda felt like he was along for the ride. It's not that he didn't try to contribute, it's just that the rest of the party tended to over shadow him, in part due to the buffs he provided.

Unseelie fey dread necromancer. Believe it or not, this was the party tank. Through temp hp and dr, she could take the biggest hit in the party. Usually though, her pets would take the hits instead. Being an unseelie fey, she would bottom out saves, and then follow up with save or die spells. She and her pets were effectively a speed bump that buffered the rest of the party.

All together the the party became a tough nut to crack. Combats were settled in 3 rounds tops. I began to worry that I wasn't challenging them. If I kept escalating things, I would have to try and out right kill several party members out right. I don't like being adversarial with the party.

It was then when I shared my concerns with the players, that one of the players gave me the best piece of advice. He told me not to sweat the challenge. He told me that the important thing was that the party was having fun. That the party had earned their power through leveling up. I was presenting opportunities to let them enjoy the rewards for their efforts, and letting them do what they were designed to do. As long as the story and encounters were entertaining and keeping their interest, then it didn't matter how long the combats lasted or how close to death they came. The players were enjoying it, and ultimately that is all that matters.

So I am passing on that same advice to you. Characters start coming into their own in the early to mid teens, become world shakingly powerful in the late teens, and become game breaking at epic levels. Roll with it, and as long as they stay interested it doesn't matter.

[Thurbane]

The toughest thing I find as a DM is balancing CR with action economy.

If your encounter is a solo creature, it's going to get positively mobbed by the party.

You need to have encounters be a bunch of monsters; one monster above the effective party level; or a monster with decent action economy (beholder, nagahydra, chronotryn etc.).

If the party contains casters, the encounter also has to have some form of defense against spell effects...

[emeraldstreak]

Some Arrow Demons, some War Trolls on a large battlefield will be a fun encounter.