The Mundane Bard [PEACH]

[GalacticAxekick]

As part of an ongoing project to make martial characters more flexible in 5e, I started working on a version of the Bard with no spellcasting whatsoever (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SyJbQnhWl). Obviously, this demands total overhaul, and so I was hoping y'all could help brainstorm features and fine-tune what I've written so far.

Thanks for being a helper!

EDIT: Based on some input by NinjaPrawn and Zeigander, the class needs stronger "tentpole" features, as Prawn puts it: a couple unique and powerful features acquired early to build future levels and subclasses on. Right now, I intended that Bardic Performance and the subclasses' Showing & Telling would serve as tentpoles, comparable to the Barbarian's Rage and the the Rogue's Cunning Action respectively. As they are, however, these features offer insuffient offensive and defensive tools for this class to work in combat.

I'd like to avoid resource economies, such as the Inspiration Die, in favour of action economies. Rather than more powerful tools than the attack action, I want the focus to be providing more varied tools than the attack action. Round-to-round options without restriction.
I'd like to avoid building a sort of Warlord, Skald, Swashbuckler or Dervish: concepts with martial prowess supplemented with leadership and charisma. Really, I want precisely the opposite: a class based on leadership and charisma, supplemented with martial prowess in only the actor-themed subclass (the College Seen). I've kept the 1d8 hit die, light armour and simple weapon proficiencies from the PHB Bard, but if I could I'd give only what the Wizard gets.
I'd like to avoid too-pretty-to-die features, if possible. A Charisma-based Unarmoured Defense or a Sanctuary-like effect would certainly help the class survive, but these sorts of things are very thematically restricting, because not every Bard will look like a delicate beauty or innocent bystander. I want it to be very easy to decide to crossbow the man shouting insults at you and praises to your aggressors, or the woman throwing daggers your way and twirling scimitars through your friends.

Defenses relying on intimidation, beguiling performances, misdirection of attention or morale are less thematically restrictive, and so I tried to take that route with Showing. But this certainly isn't enough for the College Seen subclass, let alone the College Heard subclass, so help would be appreciated.

:
The College Seen's Theatre represents all forms of visual performance: acting, circus, dance, gladiation and prestidigitation. Though Bards don't have high hit dice, strong armour, or martial weapons, Theatre should be offer them some or all of the above. Temporary hit points and temporary proficiencies were my start in this direction.
The College Heard's Lecture represents all forms of auditory performance: storytelling, comedy, music, prose and poetry. The Bard's low hit dice, poor armour and poor weapons aren't a concern at the shouting distance, but the Bard needs to be effective at that distance to be worthwhile. Granting temporary hit points and dealing psychic damage to a given target was my start in this direction, but AoE abilities, unique mind-altering effects, and maybe some action-economic version of Bardic Inspiration would be appropriate.

[Potato_Priest]

Bardic Performance isn't actually showing up on the page.

[GalacticAxekick]

Pardon me. Fixed.

[Potato_Priest]

Once you have performed the maximum number of times for your barbarian level, you must finish a long rest before you can perform again.
I don't think forcing bards to multiclass to barbarian just to use their class features is a good idea. :smallbiggrin:

[GalacticAxekick]

LOL, can you imagine?

Fixed. Thanks!

[Ziegander]

Might want to work on that starting equipment package.

So far it looks like either a bad Fighter with two extra skills or a bad Bard with no spells. I think losing Bardic Inspiration was a mistake, and your replacement Performances are far too weak to be limited to so few times per day.

Compared with a Barbarian who gains advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws, resistance to weapon damage, and a bonus to damage, your Bard either gets to attack with Charisma using actual weapons and wear a shield or gets to make a psychic attack or give someone a short lived HP boost (effectively a Cure Wounds that scales poorly). The abilities are thematic, but just don't compensate, at all, for the lack of spellcasting (or Inspiration Dice, in my opinion, that's one of my favorite features of the 5e Bard).

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think losing Bardic Inspiration was a mistake, and your replacement Performances are far too weak to be limited to so few times per day.

Agreed. I reckon a class needs three tentpole features that hold everything else up. Or maybe two if one of them is full casting. At the moment, you've got one (performances), and they're not what I'd call a 'tentpole' at this point.

If it's any help, OP, I tried making a spell-less bard once, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e) is where I ended up. Obviously the theme is a bit different, but maybe you could do something similar with improved Inspiration and something like warlock invocations as the core features.

[GalacticAxekick]

Might want to work on that starting equipment package.Why would that be?


I think losing Bardic Inspiration was a mistake [...] The abilities are thematic, but just don't compensate, at all, for the lack of spellcasting (or Inspiration Dice, in my opinion, that's one of my favorite features of the 5e Bard)I personally detest resource economies and prefer action economies, so getting rid of inspiration dice (and superiority dice, and ki pools) was a major goal of this project. That said, I'm not every player, so I'll look into some form of compromise. Feel free to make suggestions!


Your replacement Performances are far too weak to be limited to so few times per day. Compared with a Barbarian who gains advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws, resistance to weapon damage, and a bonus to damage, your Bard either gets to attack with Charisma using actual weapons and wear a shield or gets to make a psychic attack or give someone a short lived HP boost (effectively a Cure Wounds that scales poorly) Because a Frightened enemy cannot move nearer to the subject of its fear, because a Charmed enemy cannot attack its charmer, and because you cannot be targeted with attacks while hidden, I hoped the Showing feature would give College Seen Bards a form of defense without armour or saves. Performance doesn't improve their AC or saves significantly (+2 from a shield, heavier armour if you like, resistance to being Charmed and Frightened), but because they gain advantage on checks to interact socially with other creatures, they make their Showing checks at advantage.

College Heard Bards can't defend themselves in this way, but as back-line support, I didn't think they should.

That said, even Wizards get Mage Armour, so maybe something more concrete would be appropriate. I can increase the number of performances per rest, or allow them to recover performances with a short rest, though I have no idea regarding how to make performances offer stronger offense or defense. Thoughts? Ideas?

[GalacticAxekick]

Agreed. I reckon a class needs three tentpole features that hold everything else up. Or maybe two if one of them is full casting. At the moment, you've got one (performances), and they're not what I'd call a 'tentpole' at this point. Like Bardic Performance was inspired by Rage, I'd hoped the Showing & Telling features—inspired by Cunning Action—would serve as that second tentpole, offering defense, offense and utility in unique and thematic ways. Is there any way Performance, Showing & Telling could be buffed to better serve that role?


If it's any help, OP, I tried making a spell-less bard once, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e) is where I ended up. Obviously the theme is a bit different, but maybe you could do something similar with improved Inspiration and something like warlock invocations as the core features.I actually gave this a look while I was planning out the project! It certainly makes an effective non-magical Bard. But it's not quite what I'm going for, for a few design-philosophical reasons.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Like Bardic Performance was inspired by Rage, I'd hoped the Show & Tell features—inspired by Cunning Action—would serve as that second tentpole, offering defense, offense and utility in unique and thematic ways. Is there any way Performance, Show & Tell could be buffed to better serve that role?

I'd bring them into the base class. I mean, you've given the subclasses abilities that are basically the same thing, which should be a red flag straight away. For me, the low-level subclass abilities need to distinguish the subclass and change the way it plays.

[GalacticAxekick]

I'd bring them into the base class. I mean, you've given the subclasses abilities that are basically the same thing, which should be a red flag straight away. For me, the low-level subclass abilities need to distinguish the subclass and change the way it plays.I thought they did, with Showing allowing offering the Bard the security to skirmish (say, Frightening enemies in order to keep them at bay while slinging projectiles, or hiding from them to attack at Advantage and retreat unharmed) while Telling offers the Bard tools to play support and control (making enemies frightened of an environmental hazard to move them one way or another, hiding a crucial creature/object from the enemy).

[GalacticAxekick]

Edited the original post, highlighting more specific areas I could use help.

[Flashy]

I thought they did, with Showing allowing offering the Bard the security to skirmish (say, Frightening enemies in order to keep them at bay while slinging projectiles, or hiding from them to attack at Advantage and retreat unharmed) while Telling offers the Bard tools to play support and control (making enemies frightened of an environmental hazard to move them one way or another, hiding a crucial creature/object from the enemy).

Isn't Telling just strictly better than Showing since the one creature can easily be yourself? Regardless, there's not all that much character in getting identical abilities with different targets through your subclass. I really agree with Ninja, those should be consolidated and rolled into the base class.


I'd like to avoid resource economies, such as the Inspiration Die, in favour of action economies. Rather than more powerful tools than the attack action, I want the focus to be providing more varied tools than the attack action. Round-to-round options without restriction.
I'd like to avoid building a sort of Warlord, Skald, Swashbuckler or Dervish: concepts with martial prowess supplemented with leadership and charisma. Really, I want precisely the opposite: a class based on leadership and charisma, supplemented with martial prowess in only the actor-themed subclass (the College Seen). I've kept the 1d8 hit die, light armour and simple weapon proficiencies from the PHB Bard, but if I could I'd give only what the Wizard gets.
I'd like to avoid too-pretty-to-die features, if possible. A Charisma-based Unarmoured Defense or a Sanctuary-like effect would certainly help the class survive, but these sorts of things are very thematically restricting, because not every Bard will look like a delicate beauty or innocent bystander. I want it to be very easy to decide to crossbow the man shouting insults at you and praises to your aggressors, or the woman throwing daggers your way and twirling scimitars through your friends.

Defenses relying on intimidation, beguiling performances, misdirection of attention or morale are less thematically restrictive, and so I tried to take that route with Showing. But this certainly isn't enough for the College Seen subclass, let alone the College Heard subclass, so help would be appreciated.

You talked a good deal about what you don't want the class to be, but I didn't see a lot of thought about what your active vision for the class is. Personal defense through misdirection is not the pillar of a support class. Generate more of a concept for what the class actually does and I think it might be easier to find your tentpole features.

I'm also a little confused because you say that you want the class to eschew resource economies, but literally the first feature is multiple uses on a long rest recharge.


:
The College Seen's Theatre represents all forms of visual performance: acting, circus, dance, gladiation and prestidigitation. Though Bards don't have high hit dice, strong armour, or martial weapons, Theatre should be offer them some or all of the above. Temporary hit points and temporary proficiencies were my start in this direction.
The College Heard's Lecture represents all forms of auditory performance: storytelling, comedy, music, prose and poetry. The Bard's low hit dice, poor armour and poor weapons aren't a concern at the shouting distance, but the Bard needs to be effective at that distance to be worthwhile. Granting temporary hit points and dealing psychic damage to a given target was my start in this direction, but AoE abilities, unique mind-altering effects, and maybe some action-economic version of Bardic Inspiration would be appropriate.


You're thinking way too hard about subclass features right now. You know vaguely what you want from the subclasses, and that's good. But you currently have twelve levels that are either ???, extra attacks, or padded out as additional ASIs. There's no identity after 3rd level. Don't think about how to set the two subtypes apart until you've built the main chassis you want. I don't plug my own stuff often but ages ago I also built a no magic support class. If you want to look at it it's in my sig. Based on that (admittedly limited) experience my advice would be that you need to think about the power break points of the system (when are other support characters getting their defining spells/abilities), you need to think about how you want the character to fit into the larger scheme of a party, and you need to think about what the defining character of the class is. If you want to scaffold the main class features around power breaks that come through the subclasses that's fine, but you need to start with a firm idea of what the class as a whole really is.

I think a good start would be to ask yourself why a character who wants to be a no-magic support/face should pick this over a Mastermind Rogue with the performer background?

[GalacticAxekick]

Isn't Telling just strictly better than Showing since the one creature can easily be yourself? Showing is effective until the end of your next turn. Telling is effective until the start of your next turn. In this way, Telling lends itself better to making a third party frightening/charming/hidden.

That said, it'd absolutely make sense to include a clause that Telling can't be used to describe the speaker. I'll try to write something of the sort. Thanks!


Regardless, there's not all that much character in getting identical abilities with different targets through your subclass. I really agree with Ninja, those should be consolidated and rolled into the base class.Fair.


You talked a good deal about what you don't want the class to be, but I didn't see a lot of thought about what your active vision for the class is. Personal defense through misdirection is not the pillar of a support class. Generate more of a concept for what the class actually does and I think it might be easier to find your tentpole features.Because Bards are storytellers, the class is defined by its social skills and acquired knowledge. High Charisma, myriad proficiencies, the charm-like effect of Bardic Performances were meant to represent this, alongside features such as Jack of All Trades and Expertise which I've yet to place.

But because Bards are only storytellers—not warriors, not magicians, not explorers—they lack conventional combat and exploration skills. In combat and exploration, Bards improvise uses for the skills they've acquired. For this reason, the precise benefits of Bardic Performance and the class's second tentpole come from the subclasses, not the core class. And for this reason, the subclasses are acquired at first level.

The College Seen—consisting of actors, circus, dancers, gladiators and prestidigitators—is not for totally support-oriented Bards. Bards of the College Seen can emulate martial skill during their performances, maybe drawing inspiration from stories of warriors, or the acrobatic/athletic/juggling skills of circus, the fitness of a dancer, etc. Bards of the College Seen use their Charisma to frighten, charm and misdirect enemies as offense and defense, allowing them to fight on the front lines or serve as artillery. They do offer some support, by controlling space and debuffing foes with effects like fear. But more than anything, they trade blows or skirmish. Ribbon features might include impersonating others' mannerisms and miming actions exactly.

The College Heard—consisting of storytellers, comedians, musicians, speakers and poets—is for totally support-oriented Bards. Bards of the College Heard speak inspiring words to empower allies and cutting words to demoralize foes: granting temporary hit points and dealing psychic damage respectively, as well as dealing status effects to further debilitate them and control space. Ribbon features might include impersonating others' voices, ventriloquism, countersound, and parroting noises exactly.


I'm also a little confused because you say that you want the class to eschew resource economies, but literally the first feature is multiple uses on a long rest recharge. Rage, and by extension Bardic Performances, get my pass because they aren't a substitute for round-to-round action economy (as spell slots, ki points, or superiority dice are). They're a supplement.


You're thinking way too hard about subclass features right now. You know vaguely what you want from the subclasses, and that's good. But you currently have twelve levels that are either ???, extra attacks, or padded out as additional ASIs. There's no identity after 3rd level. Don't think about how to set the two subtypes apart until you've built the main chassis you want. The choice to set defining features in subclasses was discussed above. The lack of identity past 3rd level is mostly to do with my dissatisfaction with the features as they are: they aren't yet viable scaffolding.




I don't plug my own stuff often but ages ago I also built a no magic support class. If you want to look at it it's in my sig. Based on that (admittedly limited) experience my advice would be that you need to think about the power break points of the system (when are other support characters getting their defining spells/abilities) I'll look into this, thanks!


you need to think about how you want the character to fit into the larger scheme of a party, I think I have an idea of this, as described earlier. The College Seen trades blows and skirmishes in combat while the College Heard distributes buffs and nerfs. Both explore using acquired skills and dominate social situations through cunning use of (body) language.


and you need to think about what the defining character of the class is. If you want to scaffold the main class features around power breaks that come through the subclasses that's fine, but you need to start with a firm idea of what the class as a whole really is. The ultimate socialite and performer. What that entails, beside high Charisma, myriad proficiencies and advantaged social interactions, depends mostly on what sort of performance is at hand.


I think a good start would be to ask yourself why a character who wants to be a no-magic support/face should pick this over a Mastermind Rogue with the performer background?They're essentially completely different, so I'm inclined to say "because the Professional offers themes and mechanics the Mastermind Rogue does not". In terms of mechanics in particular, it offers healing in various forms, access to a variety of useful items (and enhanced items like +1 ammunition), streamlined day-to-day exploration like foraging and marching, and more specific and powerful support than the Help action offers.

I'm not certain how this exercise helps me, though I appreciate your advice!

[Flashy]

Oh gosh no, I meant that the mastermind question is a good thing to ask yourself about the spell-less bard you're designing! Who cares about the professional, I just cited it as a reference point to show I have experience tangentially related to this.

[GalacticAxekick]

Oh! My mistake! That makes a lot more sense.

The Mastermind offers proficiency with the diguise and forgery kits, but a Bard of the College Seen can acquire both and perfect immitation on top of them. I may want to offer those features earlier to compete better with the Mastermind.
The Mastermind offers unerring mimicry of speech patterns and accent after 1 minute of listening, but a Bard of the College Heard can mimic any vocalization exactly, perform ventriloquey and produce countersounds. Again, I should probably offer these abiltiies earlier to make them competitive.
The Mastermind can use the Help action as a bonus action and across a distance of 30 feet (which is, interestingly, a action-economic equivalent of the resource-economic Bardic Inspiration!). Tempted as I am to steal this feature for my Bard, I might instead tweak it: College Heard Bards should be able to grant (dis)advantage to an ability check, saving throw or attack roll using their reaction.
The Mastermind can learn the intelligence, wisdom, charisma, class levels, history and personality of other creatures during ordinary interaction and observation. Again, this is a feature I'd love to steal if it weren't already another (sub)class's. Thankfully, the Bard enjoys some intrigue utilities through Showing & Telling: the ability to frighten and charm others at will, and the ability to disappear into a scene or crowd. What they can't learn through a single feature, they can learn through interrogation, fast-talk and infiltration.
The Mastermind's Soul of Deceit is yet another feature I'd like the Bard to have. It's incredibly thematic for actors and speakers to be a master deceivers. In its stead, I might offer a feature for College Seen Bards to take on elements of different characters (comparable to the Barbarian totems) and let College Heard Bards tell vivid lies, maybe verging on illusions.

This is a fantastic exercise, and I can't thank you enough for recommending it. Though more than anything, it's helped sort of low-level utilities and high level combat features, while low level combat features are my biggest struggle right now. Do you have any suggestions for how to the Theatre and Lecture performances, or Bardic Performances in general more powerful?