So Wail of the Banshee that affect the entire party...is CR10 trap?

[Rerednaw]

We lost 2 PCs (9th level party) because the previous trap dinged 11 Con which kind of hurt their Fort save against this one.

Those who survived got 375 xp. Seems a bit harsh.

I checked the DMG and sure enough...this is CR10. Wow.

[Arbane]

We lost 2 PCs (9th level party) because the previous trap dinged 11 Con which kind of hurt their Fort save against this one.

Those who survived got 375 xp. Seems a bit harsh.

I checked the DMG and sure enough...this is CR10. Wow.

CR system continues to be completely b0rked, film at 11.

(I'd imagine the logic there is that the PCs can just choose NOT to go anywhere near it... if they somehow notice it in time.)

[Zanos]

Permanent detect magic or arcane sight ruins all magical traps forever, so...

But yeah, traditional ways of getting past this trap probably aren't going to pan out, considering it's a DC 34 to find/disable and it automatically resets.

[Inevitability]

What's your party makeup?

[Remuko]

We lost 2 PCs (9th level party) because the previous trap dinged 11 Con which kind of hurt their Fort save against this one.

Those who survived got 375 xp. Seems a bit harsh.

I checked the DMG and sure enough...this is CR10. Wow.

Bolded the issue here. The CR of the wail trap doesn't factor that bolded bit in, which made the trap far deadlier than intended.

[Inevitability]

Bolded the issue here. The CR of the wail trap doesn't factor that bolded bit in, which made the trap far deadlier than intended.

Stay safe, carry wands of Lesser Restoration.

[Remuko]

Stay safe, carry wands of Lesser Restoration.

Sage advice.

[nyjastul69]

We lost 2 PCs (9th level party) because the previous trap dinged 11 Con which kind of hurt their Fort save against this one.

Those who survived got 375 xp. Seems a bit harsh.

I checked the DMG and sure enough...this is CR10. Wow.

I don't know what getting 'dinged' means in the lexicon you are using. If what you mean is that every character took 11 points of Con damage from the previous trap, this trap wasn't the one that killed you.

[Elysiume]

Bolded the issue here. The CR of the wail trap doesn't factor that bolded bit in, which made the trap far deadlier than intended.I somehow glanced over that when I read the OP. 11 CON damage is a ton of ability damage to take; I'm almost surprised nobody flat-out died from that. Unless I'm misunderstanding how CON damage works, every character would effectively have lost 45 or 54 health.

e: thought party was 10, not 9

[nyjastul69]

I somehow glanced over that when I read the OP. 11 CON damage is a ton of ability damage to take; I'm almost surprised nobody flat-out died from that. Unless I'm misunderstanding how CON damage works, every character would effectively have lost 45 or 54 health.

e: thought party was 10, not 9

I'm pretty sure that Con loss can't bring a character to less than 1 hp/hd. Unless of course the loss brings it 0. That equals death.

[Elysiume]

I'm pretty sure that Con loss can't bring a character to less than 1 hp/hd. Unless of course the loss brings it 0. That equals death.Realized that this doesn't have the Pathfinder tag, so maybe it's different in 3.5, but in PF I think that bound is only for gaining health when you level:

You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:
Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level).
The ability damage bit doesn't mention a cap. Each character would have taken either -5 or -6 to their fort save (depending on whether they had an even/odd con), so they'd both take 45/54 damage and have their max dropped by the same amount:

Ability Damage: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by the Ability Damage penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.(assuming that 11 CON damage didn't outright kill them; hopefully they all had constitution scores of 12+)

[nyjastul69]

Realized that this doesn't have the Pathfinder tag, so maybe it's different in 3.5, but in PF I think that bound is only for gaining health when you level:

The ability damage bit doesn't mention a cap. Each character would have taken either -5 or -6 to their fort save (depending on whether they had an even/odd con), so they'd both take 45/54 damage and have their max dropped by the same amount:
(assuming that 11 CON damage didn't outright kill them; hopefully they all had constitution scores of 12+)

I was not assuming PF. I'm assuming 3.5 standard rules. This (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_abilityscoreloss&alpha=A) link has the relevant info.

ETA: Yeah, if this is a PF thread, forget what I said. I didn't see any tags.

ETA2: I misspoke. Con drain or damage is capped at at min of 1hp/lvl, not necessarily any type of loss. This is again, 3.5. It's unclear to me which ruleset is being discussed here.

[Thurbane]

What's your party makeup?

Not enough Rouge, apparently. *ba-doom-tish*

[Crake]

this is why everyone should have a soulfire buckler as soon as possible. Immunity to death effects, energy drain and all negative energy is pretty damn sweet. Damn cheap and easy to craft, and well worth the craft magic arms and armor feat.

12,500gp is easily affordable by level 7, and any cleric or druid can cast death ward. Wands of lesser restoration taken from the paladin spell list cost a measly 1500gp so they should also be something you carry around to wave about when necessary, in addition to wands of lesser vigor, to ensure people are always at full hp and no ability damage after each fight.

[noce]

this is why everyone should have a soulfire buckler as soon as possible. Immunity to death effects, energy drain and all negative energy is pretty damn sweet. Damn cheap and easy to craft, and well worth the craft magic arms and armor feat.

12,500gp is easily affordable by level 7, and any cleric or druid can cast death ward. Wands of lesser restoration taken from the paladin spell list cost a measly 1500gp so they should also be something you carry around to wave about when necessary, in addition to wands of lesser vigor, to ensure people are always at full hp and no ability damage after each fight.

I totally agree on the wands part, but not on the buckler.

I never consider it an option to waste a feat on crafting, money are readily available while feats are not.
You can buy all sort of useful things with 25000gp, it's a lot of money to spend it all on a subset of what you will face, and if you die for something else you will feel dumb.

After all, a Wail of the Banshee trap has, if I am correct, DC 23.
Let's say you spend 16k on a Cloak of Resistance +4 and 5k on an Amulet of Fortune Prevailing. If you're a caster, 2k on a Headband of Conscious Effort, too (or if you're at least lvl 10, 3k on a Ring of the Diamond Mind with Mind over Body).
Note that, in your case, you can craft those items, if you so prefer.
Obviously, I assume the party buys the wands you mentioned.

With less investment than the buckler, you will likely pass the save and your equipment will be useful also when you don't face death effects.

[Zombimode]

I'm pretty sure that Con loss can't bring a character to less than 1 hp/hd. Unless of course the loss brings it 0. That equals death.

While this is true, loss of Con can still kill a creature without dropping con to 0. When you loose Con, your max HP drops - but the damage you've received stays of course.

Say, you have 50 HP, 8 HD. You took 30 Points of damage, which leaves you with 20 HP.
Now, if you loose 6 or more Points of Con, you HP will drop by 24 or more, which will then leave you with 26 max HP and 30 damage - you are now at -4 hp.

[nyjastul69]

While this is true, loss of Con can still kill a creature without dropping con to 0. When you loose Con, your max HP drops - but the damage you've received stays of course.

Say, you have 50 HP, 8 HD. You took 30 Points of damage, which leaves you with 20 HP.
Now, if you loose 6 or more Points of Con, you HP will drop by 24 or more, which will then leave you with 26 max HP and 30 damage - you are now at -4 hp.

I corrected myself. Not all Con loss. Con loss by drain or damage is capped at Min of 1. Please pay attention.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Permanent detect magic or arcane sight ruins all magical traps forever, so...

But yeah, traditional ways of getting past this trap probably aren't going to pan out, considering it's a DC 34 to find/disable and it automatically resets.
Magic Aura counters Detect Magic/Arcane Sight easily enough, and it's a 1st level spell that lasts 1 day/level. The only reason not to put it on magic traps is that there's no one around to do it.

I mean you don't have to, but it's kind of a kick to the face for everyone who invested in trapfinding otherwise.


I totally agree on the wands part, but not on the buckler.

I never consider it an option to waste a feat on crafting, money are readily available while feats are not.
You can buy all sort of useful things with 25000gp, it's a lot of money to spend it all on a subset of what you will face, and if you die for something else you will feel dumb.

After all, a Wail of the Banshee trap has, if I am correct, DC 23.
Let's say you spend 16k on a Cloak of Resistance +4 and 5k on an Amulet of Fortune Prevailing. If you're a caster, 2k on a Headband of Conscious Effort, too (or if you're at least lvl 10, 3k on a Ring of the Diamond Mind with Mind over Body).
Note that, in your case, you can craft those items, if you so prefer.
Obviously, I assume the party buys the wands you mentioned.

With less investment than the buckler, you will likely pass the save and your equipment will be useful also when you don't face death effects.
Crafting feats are hardly a waste.
Getting custom-tailored gear for your whole party is worthwhile even in settings with full, all-the-time Magic Mart access unless your DM lets NPCs sell custom combo-items.
It's even more valuable in those without, for obvious reasons.
It also gets you more gear out of your WBL. XP comes back easily enough, so if you have the time to craft and can spare the slot it's probably one of the best investments you can make.

That said, Cloak of Resistance +4 is a waste of gold unless you have no casters who can cast Greater/Superior Resistance. Not only that, tons of spells grant a resistance bonus to saves.
If you're going for saves look for non-resistance bonus instead so it stacks with those.

The Mindarmor property (MIC, 3k) is a steal for a +5 untyped will save bonus against mind-affecting, even if it uses an immediate action.
The Greater Crystal of Lifekeeping (MIC, 5k) is really cheap and even offers a reroll. The Greater Crystal of Mind Cloaking (MIC, 10k) is more expensive but also totally worth it.
The Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MIC, 10k), Tabard of the Great Crusade (MIC, 5,5k) and Ring of Mystic Defiance (MIC, 7,5k) are also pretty good.

And Soulfire helps against a lot more than just death effects. Stuff like Enervation or a vampires slam attack that don't allow saves are the big ones.
Sure, it's not the first thing you buy and if it's too expensive for you you can get Death Ward armor property for a more limited version, but you'll want to upgrade to Soulfire some time in the future.
I'd rate it as second only to Mind Blank as far as required immunities go.

[Zanos]

Magic Aura counters Detect Magic/Arcane Sight easily enough, and it's a 1st level spell that lasts 1 day/level. The only reason not to put it on magic traps is that there's no one around to do it.

I mean you don't have to, but it's kind of a kick to the face for everyone who invested in trapfinding otherwise.
Arcane sight/detect magic can identify magic items with a spellcraft check, so if you consider a magical trap a magic item that can be concealed with magic aura, the caster will get a very easy will save against the magic aura. There's also the whole issue that magic aura technically doesn't conceal itself.


Not enough Rouge, apparently. *ba-doom-tish*
Honestly even a 20 int Rogue would have issues with making a search check for this trap without a lot of buffs. Even if you found it at level 10 you'd be looking at maybe 13 ranks, 5 int(generous), +2 from some kind of masterwork took for +20? I'm sure you could crank that higher but I think a 20 int rouge is already kind of unlikely, and you need a 14 or better to find the trap. I guess nothing technically stops you from taking 20 on the search, at least.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Arcane sight/detect magic can identify magic items with a spellcraft check, so if you consider a magical trap a magic item that can be concealed with magic aura, the caster will get a very easy will save against the magic aura. There's also the whole issue that magic aura technically doesn't conceal itself.
Identifying a magic item with spellcraft requires a DC 50+CL spellcraft check and a full round of concentration on the item, for basic properties. Why would a character concentrate on an item that shows up as nonmagical?
Even Greater Arcane Sight can't identify magic items. Arcane Sight can only determine the school, and that isn't enough to pierce Magic Aura.

As for the aura concealing itself, it kinda has to. It explicitly makes the item detect as non-magical, which it wouldn't if it radiates an aura of Illusion magic from Magic Aura.

Honestly even a 20 int Rogue would have issues with making a search check for this trap without a lot of buffs. Even if you found it at level 10 you'd be looking at maybe 13 ranks, 5 int(generous), +2 from some kind of masterwork took for +20? I'm sure you could crank that higher but I think a 20 int rouge is already kind of unlikely, and you need a 14 or better to find the trap. I guess nothing technically stops you from taking 20 on the search, at least.
If you're not in combat you can take 10 on the check.

take 10 + 13 ranks + 2 int (reasonable imo) + 2 MWK tool = 27 as a baseline. 14 Int is on the low side for a skillmonkey build imo, but YMMV. A Unseen Seer or Psychic Rogue certainly has more.
Add on Find Traps (+10 insight), Heroism (+2 morale), Greater Heroism (+4 morale), Goggles of Minute Seeing (+5 comp), Lens of Detection (+5 untyped), Crystal Mask of Insightful Detection (+9 insight) to taste, i figure at least 1-2 of them should be assumed available. Or any of the countless other search boosts.
There's also a Teamwork Benefit for searching iirc.

So yeah, it's hard. Or, well, not effortless with take 10. But that's expected since a CR 10 encounter shouldn't be just walked over without effort by a 10th level party.
I figure if you want to find traps at your CR or above you should have to invest something beyond just max skill ranks.

[Beheld]

Identifying a magic item with spellcraft requires a DC 50+CL spellcraft check and a full round of concentration on the item, for basic properties. Why would a character concentrate on an item that shows up as nonmagical?
Even Greater Arcane Sight can't identify magic items. Arcane Sight can only determine the school, and that isn't enough to pierce Magic Aura.

Presumably you are getting this from somewhere in the Epic handbook, but he's referring to the rules in the Magic Item Compendium.

Not I think, that it matters, because it specifically says "has identify cast on it" and using detect magic and a spellcraft check in either set of rules is not casting identify.


As for the aura concealing itself, it kinda has to. It explicitly makes the item detect as non-magical, which it wouldn't if it radiates an aura of Illusion magic from Magic Aura.

Non magical items can still have spells cast on them, and those spells auras will still radiate and be detectable. So there is a legitimate argument that making the item detect as non magical doesn't erase the aura from spells such as Sequester, or Magic Aura cast on the nonmagical object.

[Eladrinblade]

We lost 2 PCs (9th level party) because the previous trap dinged 11 Con which kind of hurt their Fort save against this one.

Those who survived got 375 xp. Seems a bit harsh.

I checked the DMG and sure enough...this is CR10. Wow.

Nothing to see here. You failed against one trap, which effectively wounded/hindered you, in just such a way that the next trap killed you. Traps work best when used in conjunction with other things. The DC of the trap would be lower than that of any npc casting the same spell against you. This is part of why you want a rogue in your party, or barring that, somebody using detect magic constantly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Non magical items can still have spells cast on them, and those spells auras will still radiate and be detectable. So there is a legitimate argument that making the item detect as non magical doesn't erase the aura from spells such as Sequester, or Magic Aura cast on the nonmagical object.

Detect Magic/Arcane Sight makes no distinction if an aura is from an item being inherently magical or being the target of a spell. It just shows location and power.
So, for Magic Aura to work as written in the spell description (make the item register as nonmagical), it has to not radiate a magic aura, no matter where it may be from.

This becomes even clearer if you read the spell text:

You alter an item's aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify.
The bolded part makes it clear that spells cast on an object are part of that objects aura as far as the spell is concerned. So they're concealed by Magic Aura.
And that naturally includes Magic Aura itself, since it's a spell that's cast on the object in question.

A masterwork longsword with Magic Weapon cast on it and a +1 longsword both look the same under Magic Aura - nonmagical. It hides the Magic Weapon spell the same way it hides an inherent enhancement.
And it hides any other spells affecting the longsword - including itself.

[Beheld]

Detect Magic/Arcane Sight makes no distinction if an aura is from an item being inherently magical or being the target of a spell. It just shows location and power.
So, for Magic Aura to work as written in the spell description (make the item register as nonmagical), it has to not radiate a magic aura, no matter where it may be from.

This becomes even clearer if you read the spell text:

The bolded part makes it clear that spells cast on an object are part of that objects aura as far as the spell is concerned. So they're concealed by Magic Aura.
And that naturally includes Magic Aura itself, since it's a spell that's cast on the object in question.

A masterwork longsword with Magic Weapon cast on it and a +1 longsword both look the same under Magic Aura - nonmagical. It hides the Magic Weapon spell the same way it hides an inherent enhancement.
And it hides any other spells affecting the longsword - including itself.

While I can appreciate your desire to express your argument, I think usually when people say "there is a legitimate argument that X" they are implying "that I don't agree with." I certainly was.

[Zanos]

Presumably you are getting this from somewhere in the Epic handbook, but he's referring to the rules in the Magic Item Compendium.

Not I think, that it matters, because it specifically says "has identify cast on it" and using detect magic and a spellcraft check in either set of rules is not casting identify.

It says "or similarly examined" as well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

While I can appreciate your desire to express your argument, I think usually when people say "there is a legitimate argument that X" they are implying "that I don't agree with." I certainly was.

What i'm saying is that there is no legitimate argument. None of the spells involved work that way.
You can't argue that the item still radiates auras from attached spells when the spell explicitly says that it does not do that.
That's not a legitimate argument, that's misreading or ignoring parts of the spell descriptions to make the interaction fit into what you want.

Not that the detailed rules analysis should really be necessary in this case - if there's two possible interpretations then picking the one that makes the spell fail at its primary purpose shouldn't even be up for discussion - but i was bored enough to do it anyway.:smalltongue:


It says "or similarly examined" as well.
Which the rules in MIC don't do.
You need to Detect Magic (which shows the object as non-magical) and then use spellcraft to determine the school of magic (which does nothing on non-magical objects because they have no school).
So it's pretty clearly not similar to an Identify spell.

Analyze Dweomer would work, but again you'd have to suspect that there's something there first to examine it. Unless you go around habitually examining everything for Magic Aura that won't help you find traps.

[Zanos]

What i'm saying is that there is no legitimate argument. None of the spells involved work that way.
You can't argue that the item still radiates auras from attached spells when the spell explicitly says that it does not do that.
That's not a legitimate argument, that's misreading or ignoring parts of the spell descriptions to make the interaction fit into what you want.

Not that the detailed rules analysis should really be necessary in this case - if there's two possible interpretations then picking the one that makes the spell fail at its primary purpose shouldn't even be up for discussion - but i was bored enough to do it anyway.:smalltongue:
I mean, "every single magical trap in the game has someone stopping by to refresh magic aura on it despite it not being in their statblock" is going to invite a pretty pedantic argument. Even if I agree that magic aura should obviously work on itself, magic traps that are invisible to magical detection are quite clearly a higher CR than the printed traps.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I mean, "every single magical trap in the game has someone stopping by to refresh magic aura on it despite it not being in their statblock" is going to invite a pretty pedantic argument. Even if I agree that magic aura should obviously work on itself, magic traps that are invisible to magical detection are quite clearly a higher CR than the printed traps.

Not every single one. But a very expensive one in an inhabited dungeon? Certainly.
Maintaining your defenses is pretty standard, and in a world where magic can detect them concealing them from that should be SOP if you have the ability.

And a trap that can be easily defeated by a cantrip certainly isn't CR 10.

[tiercel]

This thread is reminding me of just how little I've played with traps generally (and how the exp reward system for them is one of many things messed up about them -- TRAP -- roll dice -- heal -- get exp, whether you found it, looked for it and failed, or didn't even think to look).

Also interesting to see what people think the relative value of items and spells are. My own rough guideline for a game that's at least in the ballpark of standard WBL is that, at least above the lowest levels, no more than 1/4 of WBL is going to be spent on even a very-best item. (In MIC terms, it means your best item is probably 2 or at most 3 levels above your character level.). This is just a matter of opportunity cost as much as anything -- what else could you have been buying / how many "slots" or other needs are going unfilled to get your Überitem?

I wouldn't say cloaks of resistance are a waste compared to 9th level characters blowing nearly all of their 4th level spells to get a similar resistance bonus. (Cloak, or vest, +4 is a bit rich for 9th level, but +2 is highly feasible.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also interesting to see what people think the relative value of items and spells are. My own rough guideline for a game that's at least in the ballpark of standard WBL is that, at least above the lowest levels, no more than 1/4 of WBL is going to be spent on even a very-best item. (In MIC terms, it means your best item is probably 2 or at most 3 levels above your character level.). This is just a matter of opportunity cost as much as anything -- what else could you have been buying / how many "slots" or other needs are going unfilled to get your Überitem?
ECL 10 isn't exactly low level. You likely already have cheap items in most or all of your slots, so now is the time to upgrade. And comprehensive immunity to some of the most dangerous effects in the game is certainly worth pursuing, especially if quite a few of them are no-save.


I wouldn't say cloaks of resistance are a waste compared to 9th level characters blowing nearly all of their 4th level spells to get a similar resistance bonus. (Cloak, or vest, +4 is a bit rich for 9th level, but +2 is highly feasible.)
You can get a non-resistance bonus for the same money, so even in the worst case (no spells at all) your saves are the same as if you'd bought the Cloak of Resistance, only they stack with any spells cast on you that also grant resistance bonuses to saves.

And it's hardly only 4th level spells. You know what spells also grant resistance bonuses on saves? Protection from Evil (1st), Nightshield (1st), Mechanus Mind (2nd), Proud Arrogance (2nd), Shield Other (2nd) and Spell Shield (2nd), for example. And those are only 1st or 2nd level spells.
If you spend your save-item money on a Cloak of Resistance they don't stack. If you buy insight or competence bonuses instead they do, granting you higher saves when you need them.
And in a few levels when a 4th level slot isn't that big a deal anymore those items will still be useful, where your Cloak of Resistance will be made obsolete by the spell.

That's why buying them is a waste compared to spending that money on non-resistance save items.

[Zanos]

And a trap that can be easily defeated by a cantrip certainly isn't CR 10.
The vast majority of traps can be detected or circumvented without the expenditure of any meaningful resources. What's the copper cost of a canary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine)(or heavier trained animal) anyway?

[Elysiume]

It's not really the focus of the thread, but I'm curious about the source of the 11 con damage. Did you get doused with black lotus extract? Did nobody outright die from the con damage?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The vast majority of traps can be detected or circumvented without the expenditure of any meaningful resources. What's the copper cost of a canary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine)(or heavier trained animal) anyway?

Triggering a trap with a summon or other expendable minion still triggers the trap.
That doesn't matter much if it's just damage, but if it's an Alarm trap, a summoning trap or just one with a big AoE you may as well have walked into it yourself.
And you don't know which it is until you find it with search.

[Thurbane]

Honestly even a 20 int Rogue would have issues with making a search check for this trap without a lot of buffs. Even if you found it at level 10 you'd be looking at maybe 13 ranks, 5 int(generous), +2 from some kind of masterwork took for +20? I'm sure you could crank that higher but I think a 20 int rouge is already kind of unlikely, and you need a 14 or better to find the trap. I guess nothing technically stops you from taking 20 on the search, at least.

That was an attempted joke... "party makeup" "rouge"... :smalltongue:

[Zancloufer]

The vast majority of traps can be detected or circumvented without the expenditure of any meaningful resources. What's the copper cost of a canary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine)(or heavier trained animal) anyway?

Congratulations! Now every PC within 120ft has to make a DC 23 Fort save or DIE.


Let us be honest: What are the odds of a okay optimized party having a Rouge that can reliably hit a DC 34 search check, and what percentage of the party can safely make a DC 23 fort save? I mean an 18 Con beatstick with a +3 resistance item still has a 50% chance of failing that save. This is not a joke trap for a group of level 10s. It is VERY hard to find, large AoE that is harmful if triggered and is a SoD that is not easy to make the save for.

[Zanos]

Congratulations! Now every PC within 120ft has to make a DC 23 Fort save or DIE.
It's 40ft. And is blocked by terrain, I think.



Let us be honest: What are the odds of a okay optimized party having a Rouge that can reliably hit a DC 34 search check, and what percentage of the party can safely make a DC 23 fort save? I mean an 18 Con beatstick with a +3 resistance item still has a 50% chance of failing that save. This is not a joke trap for a group of level 10s. It is VERY hard to find, large AoE that is harmful if triggered and is a SoD that is not easy to make the save for.
I agreed it was a nasty trap in my initial and followup posts, but there's also ways that aren't insanely optimized to get around or otherwise dampen it.

[Zancloufer]

It's 40ft. And is blocked by terrain, I think.


Well 40ft emanation. Emanation can be anywhere within ~120ft though. Also if the trap was placed in an intelligent manner they probably wouldn't provide any cover for it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Let us be honest: What are the odds of a okay optimized party having a Rouge that can reliably hit a DC 34 search check,
Check the last page.
A 14 Int rogue 10 with full search ranks who takes 10 needs a +9 bonus from somewhere else. That's not quite trivial but not exactly insurmountable.
I'd kind of expect a dedicated trapfinder to at least pick up a MWK tool and a +5 skill item, and a lot of the relevant PrCs also add boni to search. And buffs are everyones friend.

And a rogue 10 isn't exactly optimized. An Unseen Seer or Psychic Rogue naturally needs less, so a lot of it depends on how you define "okay optimized".
But "naked with max skill ranks" probably isn't it.


and what percentage of the party can safely make a DC 23 fort save? I mean an 18 Con beatstick with a +3 resistance item still has a 50% chance of failing that save.
Base fort save for a strong-fort class is +7 at level 10. Add +4 from con and +3 for the item that's +14, so it's actually only a 45% chance. :smalltongue: 65% for a single-classed wizard with 18 Con (via item probably).

That's assuming no multiclassing or prestige classes of course. And no other save buffs, of which there are many. And that weak-fort classes like wizards have neglected to shore up their weak saves. And that no one has save rerolls or straight-up immunity to death effects by now (which you can get cheaply as an immediate action, so there's really no excuse).
None of those assumptions mesh with my experience of level 10 characters, but YMMV.
The List of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) is named that way for a reason. Save Items: Items That Boost Saves (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=188) is also worth a look.

Cheap stuff like a Least Crystal of Lifekeeping (200gp for a +1 against death effects) at least should be part of every characters gear by level 10. If it's not you have only yourself to blame.

This is not a joke trap for a group of level 10s. It is VERY hard to find, large AoE that is harmful if triggered and is a SoD that is not easy to make the save for.
Of course it's not a joke. It's a CR 10 encounter for an ECL 10 party. It should require some effort, and it does. But it's hardly the near-guaranteed TPK you make it sound like.

Let's not forget that the game expects you to have certain abilities at certain levels. And dealing with death magic at level 10 is one of those things.

[Bucky]

A competent level 10 party shouldn't face even a 1-in-15 chance of a TPK or 3/4 wipe from a single CR10 encounter in isolation. But the odds of everyone failing their saves are in that ballpark.

[Beheld]

A competent level 10 party shouldn't face even a 1-in-15 chance of a TPK or 3/4 wipe from a single CR10 encounter in isolation. But the odds of everyone failing their saves are in that ballpark.

Solution: don't all walk that close to each other, or even have a single party member immune to death effects. Now you have a zero percent chance of tpk from the trap.

[Eladrinblade]

An human rogue 10 with int 14 and max ranks has +15 to search. A single elixir of vision gives you +10; a must have for anybody going through a dungeon that may have traps (it's only 250gp and lasts an hour). That's assuming you weren't already focused on being the trapfinder with goggles of minute seeing (1250gp) and a lens of detection (3500gp? afb) for +25 right there. Even if you multiclassed for one of your levels and didn't have search as a skill, you'd still have +24.

[Arbane]

Solution: don't all walk that close to each other, or even have a single party member immune to death effects. Now you have a zero percent chance of tpk from the trap.

"Spread out - we can take more damage that way."

[Beheld]

"Spread out - we can take more damage that way."

????

If being 40ft away from the farthest away party member causes your entire party to be unable to fight encounters, probably that represents a problem with your party.

X 10ft Y 10ft Z 10ft A NOOOO we are too far apart!

[Eladrinblade]

Somebody once said if you split the party you all fail always. So now everybody believes it.

[Beheld]

Somebody once said if you split the party you all fail always. So now everybody believes it.

I mean, you shouldn't split the party, not because of losing, but because then half the people can't play. But like being more than 40ft away isn't splitting.

[Zanos]

I mean, you shouldn't split the party, not because of losing, but because then half the people can't play. But like being more than 40ft away isn't splitting.
Yeah, people mean don't split the party like "Hey, you two check this room while us other two check this other room." Because that's how you fight two encounters at the same time and fall into pits and stuff.

[Zancloufer]

While some good points have been brought up about how this isn't totally out of bounds for a CR 10 trap how does it compare to OTHER CR 10 traps?


Crushing Room: CR 10; mechanical; location trigger; automatic reset; walls move together (16d6, crush); multiple targets (all targets in a 10-ft.-by-10-ft. room); never miss; onset delay (2 rounds); Search DC 22; Disable Device DC 20.

Search DC of 22! 22! 13 ranks + take 10 and you find it. Also it has a two turn delay and only effects a 10ft area.


Crushing Wall Trap: CR 10; mechanical; location trigger; automatic reset; no attack roll required (18d6, crush); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 25.

18d6 no save ouch! Still one target and really low search DC to spot. . .


Energy Drain Trap: CR 10; magic device; visual trigger (true seeing); automatic reset; Atk +8 ranged touch; spell effect (energy drain, 17th-level wizard, 2d4 negative levels for 24 hours, DC 23 Fortitude save negates); Search DC 34; Disable Device DC 34.

What is it with level 9 spells and CR 10 traps. This one had a decent chance to miss it's single target and even on a failed save never kills so it's not as bad.


Forcecage and Summon Monster VII trap: CR 10; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; multiple traps (one forcecage trap and one summon monster VII trap that summons a hamatula); spell effect (forcecage, 13th-level wizard), spell effect (summon monster VII, 13th-level wizard, hamatula); Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32.

Still brutal to find and if it's not the beatstick in that cage I don't like their odds against a CR 11 Demon. Harder to find but easy to trigger again.


Poisoned Spiked Pit Trap: CR 10; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; hidden lock bypass (Search DC 25, Open Lock DC 30); DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 50 ft. deep (5d6, fall); multiple targets (first target in each of two adjacent 5-ft. squares); pit spikes (Atk +10 melee, 1d4 spikes per target for 1d4+5 plus poison each); poison (purple worm poison, DC 24 Fortitude save resists, 1d6 Str/2d6 Str); Search DC 16; Disable Device DC 25.

I don't even know if this is possible to miss. Also 1d4*1d4+5 damage. Scary. Poison is nasty though but iirc it can't stack, lower saving throw than all other traps and a very small area of effect.


Just some inconsistency there. Wail of the Banshee has at at least 200% larger AoE, second hardest to avoid, DC 2-18 higher than the others AND is a SoD.

[Cosi]

If you really want to complain about single shot wail of the banshee, you can afford a scroll of it at 5th level on NPC WBL. That's way more dangerous than a trap.

As far as it goes, the trap doesn't seem too under CR-ed. It's still vulnerable to most of the traditional trap clearing tactics, though it requires your Rogue to invest in some +skill items. The real problem is that traps as written aren't very satisfying as encounters, and don't work well in the context of CR as it exists in the game.

[Beheld]

Still brutal to find and if it's not the beatstick in that cage I don't like their odds against a CR 11 Demon. Harder to find but easy to trigger again.

I wonder if this was written in 3.0 and then not updated when they updated stuff or something? Hamatula is not a valid Summon Monster VII casting in SRD. In fact, even Summon Monster IX only gives CR 10 and CR 11. Summon Monster VII is down at CR 6 Babau if you want a medium sized creature (to fit inside the Forcecage non barred version)

[Zanos]

If you really want to complain about single shot wail of the banshee, you can afford a scroll of it at 5th level on NPC WBL. That's way more dangerous than a trap.
It's automatic reset. And activating a CL 17 scroll is a DC 37 UMD check, which should be out of the range of a 5th level NPC.

And besides, 5th level NPC with wail of the banshee scroll and hilariously high UMD isn't a printed encounter.

[tiercel]

And it's hardly only 4th level spells. You know what spells also grant resistance bonuses on saves? Protection from Evil (1st), Nightshield (1st), Mechanus Mind (2nd), Proud Arrogance (2nd), Shield Other (2nd) and Spell Shield (2nd), for example. And those are only 1st or 2nd level spells.
If you spend your save-item money on a Cloak of Resistance they don't stack. If you buy insight or competence bonuses instead they do, granting you higher saves when you need them.
And in a few levels when a 4th level slot isn't that big a deal anymore those items will still be useful, where your Cloak of Resistance will be made obsolete by the spell.

That's why buying them is a waste compared to spending that money on non-resistance save items.

With the exception of Shield Other (which is only +1 for saves), these spells are all 1 min/level (and thus tactical: you have to know you are about to need them and have to either have a pre-combat buffing opportunity or spend action(s) in combat to put them up) and mostly face some restrictions as to what they protect against. The problem with tactical saving throw bonuses is that at least some of the times you most need a saving throw bonus is when you DON'T see it coming.

Cloak (or vest) of resistance is on all the time and protects against everything that makes you roll a save.

Is an item that gives you a non-resistance saving bonus better? Sure. But it's also gonna be -- or arguably should be -- more expensive, and that matters when you're in low or even mid levels. (And low to mid levels is when every spell slot is most precious anyway.)

That's why resistance items aren't obsolete; they are cost-effective, in terms of gold, applicability, and party spell slots.

[Rerednaw]

Oh some extra information:

DND 3.5

The only rogue in the party is a doppleganger plant by the DM. He wants to kill us.
No arcane since my wizard died. Unless the L5 pixie who lived for 30 minutes or the elf wizard who lived for half a session count...
No cleric. (I am a drood).
Magic item crafting impossible due to time constraints
Virtually no magic item buying. For example we managed to purchase a CLW wand for double price of a fully charged wand. 1 only, and it had 30 charges.
Extremely low wealth. My former wizard had 300 gp total net worth at level 6. When we finally came into wealth, nowhere to buy.
Typical encounters are EL+5.
Typically do not get an opportunity to rest. Usually have to go multiple days without sleep (yes we have fatigue and exhaustion). Environments range from alongside volcano (lava everywhere and isolated isles of rock, save each round or fall prone, plus we were all sickened the entire time from fumes. Endure elements did not help) to current zone which was guarded by endless hordes of chaos beasts plus every 10 rounds save or be polymorphed permanently into a chaos beast. We figured out how to bypass that as well as the advanced assassin vine which animated 40 foot reach of endless vines between us and it. No one could figure that out until my drood snuck in.
We were then immediately confronted by an aboleth who dominated the majority of the party. Next room had 6 double advanced cloakers that had full surprise (we only had a 30 spot check and scent did not work) chained their specials together (and their nausea had a house rule that meant you had NO actions) and they CDG a PC plus my animal companion.

If we stop to rest, the world gets that much closer to destruction. When we were level 1 and tried to camp after 1 week of non-stop encounters, the capital city which we thought would be safe for one night was overrun by endless hordes of undead as a result. And no we didn't get to rest there either.

But anyway getting back to this topic: I was just surprised to run into a 9th level spell when our party was 9th.

Current party roster:
Ranged fighter (archer). (was drow cleric till killed during capital city overrun)
Warlock. (reincarned half-elf was halfling, was goliath barbarian, was kobold sorcerer)
Dragonfire Adept. (about to pass my record for most sessions alive)
Warforged Bard (was elf wizard who was CDG by cloakers, was human fighter who was critted by twin chimeras during ambush in difficult terrain while guarding refugees while the chimeras were flying)
Drood (me with VoP). Animal Companion was CDG previous session. (used to be core wizard, surprise ambush and killed)
Monk (was True necromancer who was insta-killed last session)
Unknown (newbie rolled a pixie wizard for RP purposes, his toon was insta-killed by same trap about 30 minutes in).

Note that that is the full roster, typically we have 3-4 players per session so we are usually short. The DM however preps for full party of 6.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, Spell lv only increases CR by 1 each unless spell does damage* (base CR is 1);
*Weirdly, it is level of spell or damage/7 that determines level.

A cheap trap is daze Trap: only 1 CR, terrible DC, but cheap for CR and cost to make.
Auto reset (usually with a delay of a few rounds to a minute) doesn't increase CR.

Magic Traps are supposed to be rarely found above your level due to how dangerous they are. That is why they stopped at CR 10.

[Crake]

It's automatic reset. And activating a CL 17 scroll is a DC 37 UMD check, which should be out of the range of a 5th level NPC.

And besides, 5th level NPC with wail of the banshee scroll and hilariously high UMD isn't a printed encounter.

level 5 with say, 14 cha, max ranks in UMD, and a +2 masterwork item gets you +12. Drink a potion of guidance of the avatar beforehand, you now have +32, just need to roll a 5 and you're gucci

[Starbuck_II]

level 5 with say, 14 cha, max ranks in UMD, and a +2 masterwork item gets you +12. Drink a potion of guidance of the avatar beforehand, you now have +32, just need to roll a 5 and you're gucci

What would be a good masterwork UMD item? Rubix cube of Magic?

[Arbane]

Oh some extra information:

DND 3.5

The only rogue in the party is a doppleganger plant by the DM. He wants to kill us.
No arcane since my wizard died. Unless the L5 pixie who lived for 30 minutes or the elf wizard who lived for half a session count...
No cleric. (I am a drood).
Magic item crafting impossible due to time constraints
Virtually no magic item buying. For example we managed to purchase a CLW wand for double price of a fully charged wand. 1 only, and it had 30 charges.
Extremely low wealth. My former wizard had 300 gp total net worth at level 6. When we finally came into wealth, nowhere to buy.
Typical encounters are EL+5.
Typically do not get an opportunity to rest. Usually have to go multiple days without sleep (yes we have fatigue and exhaustion). Environments range from alongside volcano (lava everywhere and isolated isles of rock, save each round or fall prone, plus we were all sickened the entire time from fumes. Endure elements did not help) to current zone which was guarded by endless hordes of chaos beasts plus every 10 rounds save or be polymorphed permanently into a chaos beast. We figured out how to bypass that as well as the advanced assassin vine which animated 40 foot reach of endless vines between us and it. No one could figure that out until my drood snuck in.
We were then immediately confronted by an aboleth who dominated the majority of the party. Next room had 6 double advanced cloakers that had full surprise (we only had a 30 spot check and scent did not work) chained their specials together (and their nausea had a house rule that meant you had NO actions) and they CDG a PC plus my animal companion.

If we stop to rest, the world gets that much closer to destruction. When we were level 1 and tried to camp after 1 week of non-stop encounters, the capital city which we thought would be safe for one night was overrun by endless hordes of undead as a result. And no we didn't get to rest there either.

But anyway getting back to this topic: I was just surprised to run into a 9th level spell when our party was 9th.

Current party roster:
Ranged fighter (archer). (was drow cleric till killed during capital city overrun)
Warlock. (reincarned half-elf was halfling, was goliath barbarian, was kobold sorcerer)
Dragonfire Adept. (about to pass my record for most sessions alive)
Warforged Bard (was elf wizard who was CDG by cloakers, was human fighter who was critted by twin chimeras during ambush in difficult terrain while guarding refugees while the chimeras were flying)
Drood (me with VoP). Animal Companion was CDG previous session. (used to be core wizard, surprise ambush and killed)
Monk (was True necromancer who was insta-killed last session)
Unknown (newbie rolled a pixie wizard for RP purposes, his toon was insta-killed by same trap about 30 minutes in).

Note that that is the full roster, typically we have 3-4 players per session so we are usually short. The DM however preps for full party of 6.

O_O

.... has anyone sat the GM down and explained to him that he doesn't get XP for killing the player characters?

(I'd say go ahead and stop and rest. That world being destroyed will be a MERCY KILLING.)

[Crake]

What would be a good masterwork UMD item? Rubix cube of Magic?

my personal favourite is a magically attuned ring (magically attuned, but non magical itself, so it doesn't take up an item slot)


If we stop to rest, the world gets that much closer to destruction. When we were level 1 and tried to camp after 1 week of non-stop encounters, the capital city which we thought would be safe for one night was overrun by endless hordes of undead as a result. And no we didn't get to rest there either.

If the DM tried to make you feel like this was your fault, it wasn't. If a city cannot handle the horde of undead that came at them, a few extra level 1 characters would not have changed anything.

Take things as they come, if you need to take a rest so you don't all die, and **** goes down, so be it, don't the DM convince you that it's your fault though. You aren't the only people in the world, there are surely other NPCs who are also working toward **** not getting blow the **** up. If you are literally the only people trying to prevent what is happening, then well, even god only helps those who help themselves, let them burn in their own lack of survival instincts.

[ErebusVonMori]

Wow, well if you like killer DMs then you've hit the jackpot.

[Firechanter]

Just chiming in that I consider a DC23 SOD extremely harsh for a CR10-anything. And in particular, any 9th-level spells are extremely poor balance for a CR10ish Encounter, be it WotB or Dominate Monster.

It's also a prime example of a key problem of 3E in general: if the PCs are prepared, the problem is trivial, otherwise, it's murderous.

That said, and concerning the discussion about a Soulfire buckler and whether it should be a considered a must-have: you don't need one, not at this level. What you need is a Death Ward armour: negate 1 Death Effect per Day as an immediate action. Price, +1 bonus. So it's much more affordable than Soulfire, and at these levels you really shouldn't get spammed with Death Effects. At the very least, the 1/day effect should buy you enough time to put up a proper Death Ward.

[Ironsmith]

I know I'm still pretty new at this, but...


I would think the biggest problem with the Wail trap isn't so much the trap itself, but rather, how badly banged up the PCs were when they arrived at it. CR 10 is still pretty accurate, but think of it this way... if your party just got through fighting an epic lich and they were down to only a handful of hit points each, and then got ambushed by a goblin warrior (CR 1/2) who manages to kill the party's Lv. 18 Wizard (because he/she is out of spells and the goblin rolled a natural 20), the goblin isn't suddenly a threat to 18th level Wizards everywhere, he's only more dangerous because he struck at the party's low point.

Now, if there was any kind of substantial gap between the 11 points of CON damage and the Wail of the Banshee trap, honestly, I'd fault the PCs on this one. That's a large enough chunk to merit stopping, having the characters rest and recover, possibly cast a few Restoration spells or possibly a Mass Bear's Endurance (to help make up the difference while they get to a safe place), and generally get out of that low point before going any farther into the dungeon that's potentially full of other traps and/or monsters that will undoubtedly require the PCs to make a Fortitude save on down the line. It's fortunate that adventurers that are high enough level to take on a Wail of the Banshee trap can probably also afford a Resurrection...

Of course, that all goes out the window since you're clearly dealing with a killer game master. If they're not willing to let you rest without dropping rocks on everyone, then no amount of smart planning is going to help you survive. In other words, the trap and the circumstances around it are as a result of the DM being cruel to the PCs, not any particular design flaw in the game proper. Heck, the EL+5 thing is blatantly ignoring the guidelines set in the rulebooks, since that makes literally everything a boss-level encounter. I can only imagine what's going through your DM's head...

[Zanos]

I would think the biggest problem with the Wail trap isn't so much the trap itself, but rather, how badly banged up the PCs were when they arrived at it. CR 10 is still pretty accurate, but think of it this way... if your party just got through fighting an epic lich and they were down to only a handful of hit points each, and then got ambushed by a goblin warrior (CR 1/2) who manages to kill the party's Lv. 18 Wizard (because he/she is out of spells and the goblin rolled a natural 20), the goblin isn't suddenly a threat to 18th level Wizards everywhere, he's only more dangerous because he struck at the party's low point.
Well, we can do some analysis on a "fresh" party, then. I'll assume wizard/rogue/cleric/fighter, since that's what WotC assumed.

Let's say +4 resistance and con items for everyone. That's 32,000 of their 49,000 WBL, but maybe they like defenses. Keep in mind that a CR = Level quantity is supposed to deplete 1/4 of the parties daily resources and not really be a lethal threat.

Wizard:
14 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+3(Base) +4(Resistance)+4(Con) = +11 fortitude save, so needs a 12 or better to pass the saving throw. 55% chance of death.

Rogue:
14 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+3(Base) +4(Resistance)+4(Con) = +11 fortitude save, so needs a 12 or better to pass the saving throw. 55% chance of death.

I'll assume the fighter and cleric really like hit points and therefore have 16 Base con.

Fighter:
16 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+7(Base) +4(Resistance)+5(Con) = +16 fortitude save, so needs a 7 or better to pass the saving throw. 30% chance of death.

Cleric:
16 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+7(Base) +4(Resistance)+5(Con) = +16 fortitude save, so needs a 7 or better to pass the saving throw. 30% chance of death.

So assuming the party sets off this trap, which is pretty likely because the rogue need an additional +11 worth of bonuses after ranks to pass the search/disarm on a take 10, there's 9.93% chance that everyone survives the trap(45%*45%*70%*70%), and a 2.7% chance that it TPKs. Roughly a 90% chance of at least one party member instantly dying to this trap, and roughly a 30% chance that both the rogue and wizard die.

I think that's a little steep, considering how optimistic this scenario is about wealth expenditure and that CR=Level encounters aren't supposed to be regularly lethal threats. Maybe the cleric prepared revivify?

[Rerednaw]

Honestly the story is cool so we kind of shrug at the rocks fall you die syndrome. Though it does remind me of old 1st edition Tomb of Horrors or Arduin Grimoire style gaming.

I'll be running the next campaign. I prefer just showing an alternative approach where PC's are big darn heroes and make the story. I always believed as a DM I create the stage and let the PC's shine. I actually run most adventures out of the book.

Going to be running Red Hand of Doom, with slight tweaks/bug fixes.

In the meantime, going to roll up more alts. :)

I thought about a healbot/gish but that really just addresses the symptoms and not the cause.

Thanks for the feedback folks!

[Ironsmith]

Well, we can do some analysis on a "fresh" party, then. I'll assume wizard/rogue/cleric/fighter, since that's what WotC assumed.

Let's say +4 resistance and con items for everyone. That's 32,000 of their 49,000 WBL, but maybe they like defenses. Keep in mind that a CR = Level quantity is supposed to deplete 1/4 of the parties daily resources and not really be a lethal threat.

Wizard:
14 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+3(Base) +4(Resistance)+4(Con) = +11 fortitude save, so needs a 12 or better to pass the saving throw. 55% chance of death.

Rogue:
14 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+3(Base) +4(Resistance)+4(Con) = +11 fortitude save, so needs a 12 or better to pass the saving throw. 55% chance of death.

I'll assume the fighter and cleric really like hit points and therefore have 16 Base con.

Fighter:
16 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+7(Base) +4(Resistance)+5(Con) = +16 fortitude save, so needs a 7 or better to pass the saving throw. 30% chance of death.

Cleric:
16 Base Con, +4 From Amulet.
+7(Base) +4(Resistance)+5(Con) = +16 fortitude save, so needs a 7 or better to pass the saving throw. 30% chance of death.

So assuming the party sets off this trap, which is pretty likely because the rogue need an additional +11 worth of bonuses after ranks to pass the search/disarm on a take 10, there's 9.93% chance that everyone survives the trap(45%*45%*70%*70%), and a 2.7% chance that it TPKs. Roughly a 90% chance of at least one party member instantly dying to this trap, and roughly a 30% chance that both the rogue and wizard die.

I think that's a little steep, considering how optimistic this scenario is about wealth expenditure and that CR=Level encounters aren't supposed to be regularly lethal threats. Maybe the cleric prepared revivify?

The cleric having Raise Dead at the ready would be likely, especially in a campaign run by a killer DM (since dying and then coming back is probably your best bet at continued play).

If they're anticipating running into a magical trap of any kind, Spell Resistance could potentially also be in play, giving an additional chance of the spell being foiled without the need to make a Fortitude save. With a 10th level cleric, that comes out to a spell resistance of 22 (which gives Wail of the Banshee a 65% chance of failure, low Fortitude be damned). Casting this on the rogue or the wizard reduces their odds of death to a little under 25% (which is far preferable to the 55%).

Even leaving that out, though, the odds as presented of the cleric dying are only 30%, and as the party's primary healer, it'd be in their best interests to hang out at the back, out of range of any potentially devastating mundane and/or magical traps. Leaving them out...


Everybody lives: 45%*45%*70% (~14%)
Fighter dies, Wizard and Rogue live: 45%*45%*30% (~6%)
Wizard dies, Fighter and Rogue live: 55%*45%*70% (~17%)
Rogue dies, Fighter and Wizard live: 45%*55%*70% (~17%)
---No more than one person dies, within acceptable parameters of a Raise Dead spell: ~54%---
Fighter and Wizard die, Rogue lives: 55%*45%*30% (~7%)
Fighter and Rogue die, Wizard lives: 45%*55%*30% (~7%)
Wizard and Rogue die, Fighter lives: 55%*55%*70% (~21%)
This becomes a solo dungeon for the cleric: 55%*55%*30% (~9%)
---More than one person dies, Cleric needs more than one Raise Dead to get everyone through: ~46%


Another option would be to cast Spell Resistance on the rogue, and then send them ahead to scout for traps.


Rogue lives: 75%
Rogue dies: 25%
---One person or fewer dies, within acceptable parameters of a Raise Dead spell: 100%


If they did that, they'd be down two spells and a level for the Rogue, which is admittedly still bad but not anywhere near as bad as a TPK.

Then there's the chance that the wizard has a familiar... (no, no, let's not get cruel, here.)

And regardless of what springs the trap, in order for it to be viable in the campaign world, there'd have to be another way around it, so once triggered, it should be relatively easy to bypass. This is assuming, again, that we're not dealing with a killer DM and they actually thought the design of this place through. If the PCs discover it after springing it, they likely won't have to trigger it again (with a bit of clever roleplay and tool use, not even to retrieve the body of their fallen comrade). And even if you do... earplugs, 2 copper pieces apiece. The trap does require the victims to hear it in order to function. If that's not sufficient, having the wizard cast blindness/deafness on the remaining three party members will undoubtedly render the trap harmless (and as a 2nd-level spell, isn't a terribly limited resource).

In short, what it really boils down to is how ready the players are for a Saving-Throw-or-Die trap to begin with. Of course it's more likely to kill someone who isn't prepared for/isn't expecting it... that's kind of the entire purpose of a trap.

[sleepyphoenixx]

And regardless of what springs the trap, in order for it to be viable in the campaign world, there'd have to be another way around it, so once triggered, it should be relatively easy to bypass. This is assuming, again, that we're not dealing with a killer DM and they actually thought the design of this place through. If the PCs discover it after springing it, they likely won't have to trigger it again (with a bit of clever roleplay and tool use, not even to retrieve the body of their fallen comrade).
There are rules to bypass a trap without triggering it. It requires a Disable Device check against the traps DC +10. Not "clever roleplay", though blocking LoE would work (Wall of Stone, for example).
And Disable Device totally disables a trap, even a self-resetting one.
So if your campaign uses deadly, self-resetting traps you should really get a skillmonkey and have him boost his Search and DD checks.

As for thinking the design through, that's easy enough. A dungeon full of undead can be filled to the brim with self-resetting traps of Wail of the Banshee, Enervation, negative energy and poison and it won't hurt anyone but the intruders.
There's also the option to include more detailed trigger conditions for magical traps (in DMG2 i think?), so it only triggers for certain creature types or alignments. Even examples of traps that don't trigger if someone carries a special token (no clue which book though).
Spells that set traps (like various glyphs or symbols) can usually be attuned to let certain creatures through. Those that can't can be used with Selective Spell.


And even if you do... earplugs, 2 copper pieces apiece. The trap does require the victims to hear it in order to function.
Rules for earplugs also exist (A&EG). They grant a +1 circumstance bonus to saves against sonic effects, not immunity.


If that's not sufficient, having the wizard cast blindness/deafness on the remaining three party members will undoubtedly render the trap harmless (and as a 2nd-level spell, isn't a terribly limited resource).
You could just cast Silence and only use 1 spell slot instead of 1 per party member.


In short, what it really boils down to is how ready the players are for a Saving-Throw-or-Die trap to begin with. Of course it's more likely to kill someone who isn't prepared for/isn't expecting it... that's kind of the entire purpose of a trap.
True. If your party fails to spot a trap it should be dangerous, or else there would be no point in using traps.
And if the party already ran into a dangerous trap before that (11 Con damage is pretty dangerous imo) it's their own damn fault for being careless.

[Arbane]

True. If your party fails to spot a trap it should be dangerous, or else there would be no point in using traps.
And if the party already ran into a dangerous trap before that (11 Con damage is pretty dangerous imo) it's their own damn fault for being careless.

You missed the part where their GM is driving them forward like Yosemite Sam with a rented mule, right?

[Ironsmith]

You missed the part where their GM is driving them forward like Yosemite Sam with a rented mule, right?

The DM behaving that way is the crux of the problem, though, not so much how dangerous the trap itself is. I think that's the point, at least...

[Zanos]

The cleric having Raise Dead at the ready would be likely, especially in a campaign run by a killer DM (since dying and then coming back is probably your best bet at continued play).
Raise dead doesn't work on characters slain by death effects. Resurrection isn't a spell the cleric could cast, and even if either of those functioned or were avaliable, 5/10k and a lost level is certainly not a daily resource.


If they're anticipating running into a magical trap of any kind, Spell Resistance could potentially also be in play, giving an additional chance of the spell being foiled without the need to make a Fortitude save. With a 10th level cleric, that comes out to a spell resistance of 22 (which gives Wail of the Banshee a 65% chance of failure, low Fortitude be damned). Casting this on the rogue or the wizard reduces their odds of death to a little under 25% (which is far preferable to the 55%).
Spell Resistance is a min/level spell, so counting on it as a general dungeon crawling defense is not reliable. It also poses problems in that the party casters cannot automatically bypass the SR when they need to buff or heal the party. Furthermore, your math is off. The wail of the banshee trap has a CL of 17(minimum for a 9th level spell), and therefore it pierces spell resistance on a 5 or better, giving it only a 20% chance of failure from spell resistance.


And regardless of what springs the trap, in order for it to be viable in the campaign world, there'd have to be another way around it, so once triggered, it should be relatively easy to bypass. This is assuming, again, that we're not dealing with a killer DM and they actually thought the design of this place through. If the PCs discover it after springing it, they likely won't have to trigger it again (with a bit of clever roleplay and tool use, not even to retrieve the body of their fallen comrade).
I personally recommend stacking the bodies of the PCs that died to the trap into a dome so you can just walk through the trap. But yes, I agree, if you know where the trap is, circumventing it shouldn't be that difficult


And even if you do... earplugs, 2 copper pieces apiece. The trap does require the victims to hear it in order to function. If that's not sufficient, having the wizard cast blindness/deafness on the remaining three party members will undoubtedly render the trap harmless (and as a 2nd-level spell, isn't a terribly limited resource).
As mentioned, not being able to hear does not provide a sufficient defense from [sonic] spells.


True. If your party fails to spot a trap it should be dangerous, or else there would be no point in using traps.
Well, yeah, but not this dangerous. It is pretty clear that OPs DM likes to get a pound of flesh though, so eh. That probably has more to do with this.

[Ironsmith]

Raise dead doesn't work on characters slain by death effects. Resurrection isn't a spell the cleric could cast, and even if either of those functioned or were avaliable, 5/10k and a lost level is certainly not a daily resource.


Spell Resistance is a min/level spell, so counting on it as a general dungeon crawling defense is not reliable. It also poses problems in that the party casters cannot automatically bypass the SR when they need to buff or heal the party. Furthermore, your math is off. The wail of the banshee trap has a CL of 17(minimum for a 9th level spell), and therefore it pierces spell resistance on a 5 or better, giving it only a 20% chance of failure from spell resistance.

...Ah, crap. Of course the really sticky details of this thing would get in the way... (my bad on the Spell Resistance thing, too... I thought I remembered it being based spell level, not caster level. I need to go reread my rulebooks...)

[Beheld]

As for thinking the design through, that's easy enough. A dungeon full of undead can be filled to the brim with self-resetting traps of Wail of the Banshee, Enervation, negative energy and poison and it won't hurt anyone but the intruders.
There's also the option to include more detailed trigger conditions for magical traps (in DMG2 i think?), so it only triggers for certain creature types or alignments. Even examples of traps that don't trigger if someone carries a special token (no clue which book though).
Spells that set traps (like various glyphs or symbols) can usually be attuned to let certain creatures through. Those that can't can be used with Selective Spell.

The Wail of the Banshee trap in the DMG is set off by the Alarm spell.

The alarm spell says: "A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm."

If you want to risk dying if you ever forget, you can have a wail of the banshee trap literally anywhere.


As mentioned, not being able to hear does not provide a sufficient defense from [sonic] spells.

The spell specifically says that it kills creatures that hear it. While earplugs only provide a bonus, being actually deafened or in silence is a full proof defense.

[Crake]

Just chiming in that I consider a DC23 SOD extremely harsh for a CR10-anything. And in particular, any 9th-level spells are extremely poor balance for a CR10ish Encounter, be it WotB or Dominate Monster.

It's also a prime example of a key problem of 3E in general: if the PCs are prepared, the problem is trivial, otherwise, it's murderous.

That said, and concerning the discussion about a Soulfire buckler and whether it should be a considered a must-have: you don't need one, not at this level. What you need is a Death Ward armour: negate 1 Death Effect per Day as an immediate action. Price, +1 bonus. So it's much more affordable than Soulfire, and at these levels you really shouldn't get spammed with Death Effects. At the very least, the 1/day effect should buy you enough time to put up a proper Death Ward.

This just brings about the discussion about whether or not you can use an immediate action against traps.

[Arbane]

Well, we can do some analysis on a "fresh" party, then. I'll assume wizard/rogue/cleric/fighter, since that's what WotC assumed.

Let's say +4 resistance and con items for everyone. That's 32,000 of their 49,000 WBL, but maybe they like defenses. Keep in mind that a CR = Level quantity is supposed to deplete 1/4 of the parties daily resources and not really be a lethal threat.


Do PCs often have that kind of folding money lying around at mid-levels? My group's about level 9, and aside from the wannabe-merchant, I don't think anyone's got more than 4-5000 GP to spend at any one time.

[Crake]

Do PCs often have that kind of folding money lying around at mid-levels? My group's about level 9, and aside from the wannabe-merchant, I don't think anyone's got more than 4-5000 GP to spend at any one time.

in my experience people that deal in magic items are usually all too happy to trade one of their more expensive magic items for a collection of cheaper magical items at a 1:1 gp value rate, because it's easier to sell cheaper items than it is to sell more expensive ones. That's typically how our group gets their hands on the more expensive magic items despite not having thousands of gp just laying about. That is, when we aren't crafting the items ourselves

[Zanos]

The spell specifically says that it kills creatures that hear it. While earplugs only provide a bonus, being actually deafened or in silence is a full proof defense.
Ah, true. Does sort of require that you know it's coming. I guess you could just communicate via telepathic bonds or something. Still leaves the problem of listen checks. I guess leave one guy with hearing? I've heard of goofier plans.


Do PCs often have that kind of folding money lying around at mid-levels? My group's about level 9, and aside from the wannabe-merchant, I don't think anyone's got more than 4-5000 GP to spend at any one time.
That itemization was pretty unrealistic, but possible and non-specific. I usually wouldn't expect a PC to have a single item worth more than the difference between two adjacent levels WBL. Of course sometimes the games assumptions are pretty widely shocked, I probably have around 750k in wealth on my 11th level character in my current Forgotten Realms campaign. I just spend a lot of it giving my skeletons thaluaad stoneplate because I think it's funny for human soldiers to be basically incapable of hurting my guards.

In more by the book loot games, there have been times where I went 2 or 3 levels without going to a town, and the party had quite a bit of loot to offload.

[Coretron03]

There's also the part where the op has literally nothing in wealth and no magic shops so even in best case scenario they won't have that many protection items reducing the saves by 5ish.