Dragonwrought. (Curiosity and though experimentation. 3.5 D&D)

[Metahuman1]

So, we've all heard the Dragonwrough Kobold trick/cheese.


Well, I was thinking about it earlier and a question came to mind. Does this stuff only work for Kobolds, or would it work for any other creature that could qualify to take the feats? Could it work on say, a Half Dragon for example?

What other things, besides Kobolds, could be Dragonwrought and get some mileage out of them?

It doesn't necessarily need to be AS good as a Dragonwrough Kobold, but just good. Or at least notably better then it otherwise would be.

[Razade]

Firstly it's Kobold. And second, like 99% sure Dragonwrought works on any Dragon type. If the Half-Dragon template changes your type to Dragon then it should work.

[nyjastul69]

What trick are you discussing with DWK, flying, the Dragon subtype, age category advancement, true dragonism? The tricky bit is, are they True Dragons. To my understanding this only makes a difference in regard to sovereign archetypes.

I beg of everyone not to create a DWK/True dragon thread.

[Metahuman1]

*Checks.* freaking autocorrect. Thanks for mentioning that, completely missed it. Fixed it.




Anyway, alright, it does indeed seem that half dragon bestows the dragon type on creatures that have that template.

So, a follow up question. As I understand it Dragonwrought lets a creature not only gain caster levels, but they can also gain Size Category's from it if they set up for it right. Is this in any way correct, and how does it work? (If there's, say, an additional feat you'd need in the mix for that to work for example, what is that feat?)

[Remuko]

*Checks.* freaking autocorrect. Thanks for mentioning that, completely missed it. Fixed it.




Anyway, alright, it does indeed seem that half dragon bestows the dragon type on creatures that have that template.

So, a follow up question. As I understand it Dragonwrought lets a creature not only gain caster levels, but they can also gain Size Category's from it if they set up for it right. Is this in any way correct, and how does it work? (If there's, say, an additional feat you'd need in the mix for that to work for example, what is that feat?)

Ive never heard of Dragonwroughts gaining size categories. Kobolds stay small regardless.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ive never heard of Dragonwroughts gaining size categories. Kobolds stay small regardless.

Cause it's isn't something that most DWK cheese is aiming for. In fact I bet most people that play DWK cheese didn't told their DM what options he has.

Draconomicon "Other True Dragons":
Gives the DM the duty to make a table for all True Dragons for their progression. Since the DM isn't given any more info the DM has now 3 options:

a) DM makes/handles it as table with zero values. This is the option most DWK cheese is played at.

b) DM copy & pastes the table from the DWKs draconic heritage.

c) DM sets himself how DWKs progress.

Most people don't talk about option b&c to their DM cause this would prevent the regular DWK Sorcerer casting lvl chesse that most DWK builds make use of.


tl;dr: yeah DWK can have size increase if the DM knows of his options and wants it.

[Metahuman1]

And, if I'm understanding correctly, assuming I'd go options B or C, a Dragonwrought Half Dragon could pick up on them as well.

Note: This intrigues me cause it could actually make a half dragon character ok to good at Melee. Hence the pursuing it.

[nyjastul69]

Cause it's isn't something that most DWK cheese is aiming for. In fact I bet most people that play DWK cheese didn't told their DM what options he has.

Draconomicon "Other True Dragons":
Gives the DM the duty to make a table for all True Dragons for their progression. Since the DM isn't given any more info the DM has now 3 options:

a) DM makes/handles it as table with zero values. This is the option most DWK cheese is played at.

b) DM copy & pastes the table from the DWKs draconic heritage.

c) DM sets himself how DWKs progress.

Most people don't talk about option b&c to their DM cause this would prevent the regular DWK Sorcerer casting lvl chesse that most DWK builds make use of.


tl;dr: yeah DWK can have size increase if the DM knows of his options and wants it.

You haven't made it clear how a DWK gets a size increase by RAW.

[Gruftzwerg]

You haven't made it clear how a DWK gets a size increase by RAW.

If the DM goes by option b or c, DWK can get Racial HD & size increase & stuff. It just depends on the DM imho. The "other True Dragons" part of Draconomicon gives the DM enough freedom for DWK to do this (incl the LA and racial HD that will make most builds impossible and the fact that you could have picked a real true dragon for the same LA & HD investment & without using a feat! ..^^).

[nyjastul69]

If the DM goes by option b or c, DWK can get Racial HD & size increase & stuff. It just depends on the DM imho. The "other True Dragons" part of Draconomicon gives the DM enough freedom for DWK to do this (incl the LA and racial HD that will make most builds impossible and the fact that you could have picked a real true dragon for the same LA & HD investment & without using a feat! ..^^).

Yup, option C depends on the rules as the DM sees fit, not as they are written. *Shrugs* YMMV

[Metahuman1]

Hmmmm, if I picked up the Dragonwrought half dragon, got the LA situated (LA buyoff or something. Not the focus point of the question.) and started taking class levels and had a suitable age category, could the size increase based on my HD form my class levels?

[icefractal]

That size category thing might also be referring to the Advanced Dragon rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm). With a very literal reading:

1) Be a DWK. Age up to Great Wyrm while still at 1st level.
2) By the rules linked above, every three HD past Great Wyrm is a virtual age category.
3) Lesser dragons (kobold falls into by the way they're defined there) become colossal at +2 age categories (so, 7th level). And then colossal+ at 19th level.

In addition to being colossal at 7th level, you also get:
+6 natural armor
Bonuses to breath weapon, SR, and fly speed, if you have any of those
+4 Str/Con, +2 Int/Wis/Cha
DR 15/epic
+4 caster level

Even more unlikely to be usable in a campaign than DWK getting [Epic] feats, but there it is.

[Uncle Pine]

Ive never heard of Dragonwroughts gaining size categories. Kobolds stay small regardless.

It's from the ELH, under Advanced, Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm).
The trick briefly explained:

Dragonwrought Kobolds, true or not, are Dragons and use true dragon's age categories per RotD. Thus, a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold is a great wyrm dragon. ELH, under "Dragon, Advanced", states that dragons gain a "virtual age category" for every 3 HDs they gain beyond the great wyrm stage. As it's impossible to be a great wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold before 1st level (you need the Dragonwrought feat to qualify as a Dragon), a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold gains a "virtual age category" at 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. levels. ELH also divides dragons in lesser (Tiny as a wyrmling), ordinary (Small as a wyrmling, never reaches Colossal), greater (Small to Large as a wyrmling, reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage), or epic (force, prismatic). Clearly Dragonwrought Kobolds are in the ordinary group, as a wyrmling Dragonwrought Kobold is Small and it never reaches Colossal size. In the same paragraph, it's stated that an ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. Thus, a Dragonwrought Kobold that reached the great wyrm stage (Venerable) at 1st level becomes Colossal at 4th level. This is not all: a dragon also gets other goodies for each HD it gains beyond the great wyrm stage, most notably +1 natural armor/HD, +2 Str and +2 Con/virtual age category and +2 Int, +2 Wis and +2 Cha/2 age categories. Also, since it's stated that when a dragon becomes Colossal its flight speed increases by +50 ft. and its maneuverability becomes clumsy [...], if [a kobold has] the Improved Dragon Wings (either at 1st level with a flaw or at 3rd level, remember that a Dragon automatically qualifies for every feat that requires the Dragonblood subtype), at 4th level it'll have a flight speed of 80 ft. (clumsy).
Note that everything listed under Advanced, Dragon applies to any dragon, whether or not it's a true dragon or just a (normal) dragon. However, to gain all the benefits you need to of a race that has age categories like true dragons (wyrmling, etc.), which is why it applies to dragonwrought kobold but not to any given random dragon, for example half-dragons, unless they happen to use true dragons or dragonwrought kobolds as a base.

@OP: As far as I remember (afb at the moment), other than the size trick that's inaccessible to half-dragons (because they lack age categories) you have:
- Dragon Magazine psychoses, which explicitly by RAW require a true dragon as a base, so they arguably can't even be applied to dragonwrought kobolds;
- automatic qualification for dragonblood feats, which applies to any dragon including half-dragons;
- epic feat cheese (= being able to select epic feats) requires one to be a dragon of age old or older. As old is listed among "ages" each creature has (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age), a half-dragon that is old or venerable can qualify for epic feats without​ being an epic character;
- sovereign archetypes, which heavily imply being available only to true dragons but fail to actually spell it out, should also be available to half-dragons unless they happen to mention age categories at some point. I'm sorry, but I can't remember that right now. I'll check later.

[nyjastul69]

It's from the ELH, under Advanced, Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm).
The trick briefly explained:

Note that everything listed under Advanced, Dragon applies to any dragon, whether or not it's a true dragon or just a (normal) dragon. However, to gain all the benefits you need to of a race that has age categories like true dragons (wyrmling, etc.), which is why it applies to dragonwrought kobold but not to any given random dragon, for example half-dragons, unless they happen to use true dragons or dragonwrought kobolds as a base.

@OP: As far as I remember (afb at the moment), other than the size trick that's inaccessible to half-dragons (because they lack age categories) you have:
- Dragon Magazine psychoses, which explicitly by RAW require a true dragon as a base, so they arguably can't even be applied to dragonwrought kobolds;
- automatic qualification for dragonblood feats, which applies to any dragon including half-dragons;
- epic feat cheese (= being able to select epic feats) requires one to be a dragon of age old or older. As old is listed among "ages" each creature has (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age), a half-dragon that is old or venerable can qualify for epic feats without​ being an epic character;
- sovereign archetypes, which heavily imply being available only to true dragons but fail to actually spell it out, should also be available to half-dragons unless they happen to mention age categories at some point. I'm sorry, but I can't remember that right now. I'll check later.

Huh, I don't recall ever hearing this size thing before. I recall a great many arguments over varying boards about DWK, but somehow I guess I just missed that bit. Nice synopsis BTW.

[Crake]

only problem is kobolds can't advance by hit dice, they advance by class levels. 3.0's language conventions refered to racial HD as simply "Hit Dice", so the advanced dragon rules only applies to racial HD gained beyond the base dragon's normal HD at great wyrm, and not dragons with class levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

only problem is kobolds can't advance by hit dice, they advance by class levels. 3.0's language conventions refered to racial HD as simply "Hit Dice", so the advanced dragon rules only applies to racial HD gained beyond the base dragon's normal HD at great wyrm, and not dragons with class levels.

You are referring to regular Kobold. We ain't have any Statblocks for DWK and you can't just assume that they share the same as regular Kobold.

Further as long as they are True Dragons, Draconomicon "Other True Dragons" section just give em that. The text give the DM the duty to give other True Dragons LA and racial HD progression (even if they may be zero values).

And the consistent requirements for True Dragons as far as I recall is to be a dragon that has Dragon Age Categories and to gain power as they get older. DWK are dragons that have Dragon Age Categories and gain power (pure mental stat gain without any stat penality is gain in power) as they get older.

[Grim Reader]

What other things, besides Kobolds, could be Dragonwrought and get some mileage out of them?

Changelings. You need two feats at first level though, Racial emulation and Dragonwrought.

[Uncle Pine]

only problem is kobolds can't advance by hit dice, they advance by class levels. 3.0's language conventions refered to racial HD as simply "Hit Dice", so the advanced dragon rules only applies to racial HD gained beyond the base dragon's normal HD at great wyrm, and not dragons with class levels.
I didn't know about this, nor where I should go check it. I'm also unsure whether there's any 3.0 conversion booklet that covers such an issue and shows that mentions of "Hit Dice" in 3.0 should refer to "racial Hit Dice" in 3.5. As it is, with ELH being a 3.0 source that hasn't been updated and is thus valid to use in a 3.5 game in which it is allowed, the only way I see to read 'A standard dragon gains one "virtual age category" for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great wyrm stage' is 'whenever a standard dragon gains 3 Hit Dice beyond the great wyrm stage, it gains one "virtual age category"', with taking a class level being a pretty kosher way to gain a single Hit Dice.

[nyjastul69]

I didn't know about this, nor where I should go check it. I'm also unsure whether there's any 3.0 conversion booklet that covers such an issue and shows that mentions of "Hit Dice" in 3.0 should refer to "racial Hit Dice" in 3.5. As it is, with ELH being a 3.0 source that hasn't been updated and is thus valid to use in a 3.5 game in which it is allowed, the only way I see to read 'A standard dragon gains one "virtual age category" for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great wyrm stage' is 'whenever a standard dragon gains 3 Hit Dice beyond the great wyrm stage, it gains one "virtual age category"', with taking a class level being a pretty kosher way to gain a single Hit Dice.

You are incorrect about the ELH. ELH is a 3.0 book with a 3.5 update. The update is located here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)

[Metahuman1]

So, that's a no, no half dragons can't manage to do the size category trick, right?

[nyjastul69]

So, that's a no, no half dragons can't manage to do the size category trick, right?

Not from what I said. I just pointed out that ELH does in fact have a 3.5 update. Whether the update affects any of the arguments is irrelevant.

[jdizzlean]

if i tried pulling that size/age trick w/ my dm, he'd pull out a gun and shoot me.

there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what is the point of you playing if you're just trying to break the damn game w/ to much bs cheese.

the venerable age at lvl 1 is bad enough, but trying to dump on top of that w/ this is just ludicrous

if people start doing this, it's just going to lead to dm's mass banning dfa or dwk's in general, and then we'll all be that much worse off.

[Uncle Pine]

You are incorrect about the ELH. ELH is a 3.0 book with a 3.5 update. The update is located here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)
Thank you for the correction.
I've looked at both the ELH and the general update booklets and I could find no mention of switching 3.0e's HD to 3.5e's racial HD, so I guess unless someone can provide evidence of the opposite the size trick is here to stay.


So, that's a no, no half dragons can't manage to do the size category trick, right?
Sadly no, because they lack age categories: as they're never wyrmlings nor great wyrms, is impossible to assign them a category as per ELH, so they can't benefit from those rules.
You can still get dragonblood feats, epic feats and (unless I'm mistaken) sovereign archetypes as a half-dragon, which is not too bad.

The only small window you could try to exploit to use the size trick with a half-dragon is to somehow qualify for the Dragonwrought feat without being a kobold, as the feat reads:

Benefits: You are a dragonwrought kobold.
To what extent this grants you access to kobold material and feats, I'm not sure and no one will ever be. Because it's silly. In this hypothetical scenario, you'd be a half-dragon something that's also suddenly a dragonwrought kobold: do you have age categories? Do you have natural weapons kobolds have? What about slight build? If your DM decides that you get age categories then yes, you'll have access to the size trick (although maybe at a delayed level... what size was your character as a wyrmling?), but his guess will be based entirely on a whim as there's no RAW or RAI support for this decision.

EDIT:
if i tried pulling that size/age trick w/ my dm, he'd pull out a gun and shoot me.

there comes a point where you have to ask yourself what is the point of you playing if you're just trying to break the damn game w/ to much bs cheese.

the venerable age at lvl 1 is bad enough, but trying to dump on top of that w/ this is just ludicrous

if people start doing this, it's just going to lead to dm's mass banning dfa or dwk's in general, and then we'll all be that much worse off.
I actually managed to have a Colossal Totemist kobold character in a mid-op campaign I was DMing and it went very well. The other players were surprised and ecstatic about having a 50-ft. comrade in the party and even if it looked borderline op at the start they soon started to realise that there were drawbacks: they suddenly had a giant lizard target whenever they went (unless they took precautions) and that despite being Colossal, the kobold had about average hit points for his level.

[Karl Aegis]

I can think of hundreds of creatures with "Dragon Age Categories" and are specifically called out as lesser dragons. Most of them are normal dragons with the Half-Dragon template on them. The special thing about Kobolds, specifically, is they are the only humanoid with "Dragon Age Categories". They have the age categories without being a dragon at all. So, really, changing the type from humanoid to dragon should give you all the benefits of being a dragon. It doesn't really matter if you do it through dragonwrought or half-dragon.

[Gruftzwerg]

I can think of hundreds of creatures with "Dragon Age Categories" and are specifically called out as lesser dragons. Most of them are normal dragons with the Half-Dragon template on them. The special thing about Kobolds, specifically, is they are the only humanoid with "Dragon Age Categories". They have the age categories without being a dragon at all. So, really, changing the type from humanoid to dragon should give you all the benefits of being a dragon. It doesn't really matter if you do it through dragonwrought or half-dragon.
Being a dragon with dragon age categories is only half of the requirement. You need to gain in power while progressing those categories (getting older). DWK qualify for the "gaining power" by their pure mental stat gain.