Dispel Magic

[RSP]

Wondering if anyone knows of any RAW or RAI for this:

Does a caster know if their non-Concentration spell is Dispelled?

For instance, cleric casts Death Ward on himself. An hour later the cleric walks through the market place and while they're shopping, an enemy upcasts Dispel Magic on them using a 4th level slot. The hubbub in the marketplace means the cleric is completely unaware of the Dispel Magic casting.

Do they know their spell ended? Or do they continue on for the next 7 hours thinking they're protected?

Thanks!

[Millstone85]

I am not even sure they would know about their concentration spell being dispelled.

[LeonBH]

I am not even sure they would know about their concentration spell being dispelled.

It's kinda silly to not know your concentration spell was dispelled. How do you not know you have stopped concentrating on something?

[BiPolar]

It's kinda silly to not know your concentration spell was dispelled. How do you not know you have stopped concentrating on something?

Agreed, if it's a concentration spell I think it'd be pretty clear that you are no longer concentrating on it :)

If it's a non-concentration spell it gets a bit more interesting, but I'd still likely rule that you'd know (as long as it's on YOU). You're a caster, you know the effects of magic and what it feels like to have a spell active on you vs not active on you.

If you cast it on someone else and it was dispelled, it's possible they wouldn't know, but I'd also likely rule that the target knows they are no longer under the influence.

[sir_argo]

Probably not RAW--there probably isn't any RAW on this, but as a matter of practice, we do inform the target when a Dispel Magic removes an effect. I don't know how you run it, but if I had an enemy cast Dispel Magic on a spell on himself, I wouldn't tell the players. I'd announce that he cast but wouldn't reveal what or the effect. But if I had the enemy cast Dispel Magic on the character, I would tell them, "He dispels your <spell effect>." I've never seen a DM not tell the player when a spell on their character was dispelled.

I see no reason to not follow that same policy if the character is just walking through a marketplace. I would tell the player, "Somebody just dispelled your Death Ward." So yeah, I'd say the character knows. If you don't go by this policy, it will definitely make combats more interesting.

[RSP]

After posting this I realized RAW, nothing states you're aware if you cast a spell and it gets Counterspelled (assuming you don't see the casting), since the spell simply fails.

RAW, nothing states this type of failure is any different than if, say, the spell failed because the target passed their save.

Obviously direct damage spells would show a fizzle (like not having a Fireball erupt), but with something like Hold Person, nothing states the failure is any different than if the target passed their save. Either way the spell failed.

In thinking about this, I believe it's probably RAI that you know when a spell of yours is Counterspelled. Likewise, probably RAI you know when a Concentration spell ends from Dispel Magic.

If those are both RAI, its more likely the designers thought it RAI you know when other spells you cast are ended, though I do wish there was a RAW on this.

[Millstone85]

It's kinda silly to not know your concentration spell was dispelled. How do you not know you have stopped concentrating on something?Have you? If the concentration consists in, say, an ongoing chant in your head, and you don't get any feedback from the spell, then you might very well keep concentrating for nothing.

[BiPolar]

Have you? If the concentration consists in, say, an ongoing chant in your head, and you don't get any feedback from the spell, then you might very well keep concentrating for nothing.

While that's entirely possible, utilizing that seems to be more of a punish the player attitude. There's no reason NOT to have a connection between the caster and their magic other than to make something difficult for them.

Alternatively, how would a caster know that their concentration has been broken and they've lost a spell?

[Biggstick]

Has the PC ever had an effect Dispelled from them? Do they know what it feels like to have something they've cast on themselves magically removed? If they haven't had this happen to them before, and the Dispel Magic is being cast as you've described, then I would rule that they don't know it's been removed. They would potentially receive a Wisdom or Intelligence check to realize what's happened if it's the first time.

Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you automatically end the effects of a spell on the target if the spell's level is equal to or less than the level of the spell slot you used.
With this information, I would conclude that any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For spells that are higher level, you as the Dispel Magic caster would make a check against the spell level DC. This would include non-concentration and concentration spells alike, examples including: Death Ward, Greater Invisibility, Upcast Spirit Guardians, Foresight, etc.

In reading through this spell again, I realize that I've been playing this spell in a way that might not be correct. It says for each spell, make an ability check. Would this mean multiple ability checks per spell on the target? I've been playing it as a single roll that hits or misses everything above 3rd level (or level that Dispel Magic was cast).

[RSP]

Have you? If the concentration consists in, say, an ongoing chant in your head, and you don't get any feedback from the spell, then you might very well keep concentrating for nothing.

I think the fluff of manipulating the Weave goes to a RAI on this, that is, you maintain you're Concentrating on your original manipulation and in doing so are actively involved with the Magic, but, yes, there is no RAW.

[RSP]

If it's a non-concentration spell it gets a bit more interesting, but I'd still likely rule that you'd know (as long as it's on YOU). You're a caster, you know the effects of magic and what it feels like to have a spell active on you vs not active on you.

If you cast it on someone else and it was dispelled, it's possible they wouldn't know, but I'd also likely rule that the target knows they are no longer under the influence.


Has the PC ever had an effect Dispelled from them? Do they know what it feels like to have something they've cast on themselves magically removed? If they haven't had this happen to them before, and the Dispel Magic is being cast as you've described, then I would rule that they don't know it's been removed.

I think the target is unaware of the spell, if no visible effect, per Crawford's tweet:

"If a spell has no perceptible effect, its target is unaware of it. See the Sage Advice Compendium for more: http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/dnd/SA-Compendium.pdf … #DnD https://twitter.com/Leonbread1/status/780819880740265984 …"

So I don't think there's any "you feel the Magic on you" whether the target is the caster or not. Per this tweet, the target would be unaware of the Dispel Magic in this scenario.

The question is whether the caster knows the spell is functioning (again, regardless of being the target or not).

[BiPolar]

I think the target is unaware of the spell, if no visible effect, per Crawford's tweet:

"If a spell has no perceptible effect, its target is unaware of it. See the Sage Advice Compendium for more: http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/dnd/SA-Compendium.pdf … #DnD https://twitter.com/Leonbread1/status/780819880740265984 …"

So I don't think there's any "you feel the Magic on you" whether the target is the caster or not. Per this tweet, the target would be unaware of the Dispel Magic in this scenario.

The question is whether the caster knows the spell is functioning (again, regardless of being the target or not).

Very good point - although I think this is MUCH more applicable to a target that isn't the caster. Based on that, I'd likely rule that unless the spell has a tangible effect (Booming blade, for instance), the target wouldn't know if it was on or off. But I'd still think there is a connection between the spell and the caster if it's concentration.

For non-concentration spells (mage armor, although a protective magical field may be noticeable as well), I'd still say that the caster has innate understanding of whether or not their spell is active if it's on THEM. If they cast it on another person, I would NOT rule that way.

[RSP]

And just to make this more complicated, yet relevant to the discussion, is Cutting Words.

RAW, the Lore Bard can roll to subtract from the Ability check to Dispel Magic on them, whether or not they even know a spell is cast:

"When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an Attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number rolled from the creature’s roll."

Note: you don't need to know the creature is casting a spell, you just need to be able to see the creature. If you see the creature and they make an Ability check, you can use Cutting Words. And just to clarify, there doesn't need to be a visual cue for the Ability Check either, otherwise you couldn't use it on skills such as Insight or Persuasion.

[solidork]

In all of our games, it would come down to how you as a player narrate your spells. If you describe Death Ward as having very obvious visual effects (a glowing halo) then you will immediately notice. Something more subtle (your blood vessels flaring with light when struck in combat) might take a check, should you get into that situation. Something that is internal and mental (an subtle but persistent feeling of safety) might be harder to notice.

The trade off is that if it's easy for you to notice that the spell is gone, it's easy for everybody else to know that you've got magic going on. Invisible is probably better almost all the time, but I pay the cool tax every time.

[BiPolar]

Mostly this comes down to whether or not your world is one in which your players have control over their characters. Personally, I think it's better to give them that control than it is to take it away. I'm not saying there isn't a place for subterfuge, but that should be the except for a certain piece of storytelling and not the rule.

[Coffee_Dragon]

"It is a most curious sensation to feel even the smallest enchantment leaving you. [...] The way it is... do you know how it is when a bubble bursts on your wrist, leaving nothing behind but a little cold gasp, already gone out of the skin's memory by the time the slogging mind even begins to realize - yes? So. Nothing more."


If you see the creature and they make an Ability check, you can use Cutting Words. And just to clarify, there doesn't need to be a visual cue for the Ability Check either, otherwise you couldn't use it on skills such as Insight or Persuasion.

"You stand on the podium and look out over the crowd."

"All right, is anyone here about to make an ability check?"

"Yes, the fourteenth guy from the left, fifth row over."

"I Cutting Words him! YOU SUCK, FOURTEENTH GUY!"

"He looks rattled and totally fails to recall a fact about elephants. Also, everyone is very impressed with your psychic metagaming powers."

"Damn right. Anyone else doing ability checks? I wanna ruin everybody's **** before they even know they had any."

[RSP]

"You stand on the podium and look out over the crowd."

"All right, is anyone here about to make an ability check?"

"Yes, the fourteenth guy from the left, fifth row over."

"I Cutting Words him! YOU SUCK, FOURTEENTH GUY!"

"He looks rattled and totally fails to recall a fact about elephants. Also, everyone is very impressed with your psychic metagaming powers."

"Damn right. Anyone else doing ability checks? I wanna ruin everybody's **** before they even know they had any."

Technically, not meta-gaming as it's an in-Character Ability (as opposed to Player knowledge), but I do want to say I appreciate this write up!

[BiPolar]

Technically, not meta-gaming as it's an in-Character Ability (as opposed to Player knowledge), but I do want to say I appreciate this write up!

I just want to say that Fourteenth guy is my enemy. FOURTEENTH GUYYYYYY (*raises fist in air)

[LeonBH]

Have you? If the concentration consists in, say, an ongoing chant in your head, and you don't get any feedback from the spell, then you might very well keep concentrating for nothing.

Have I what? Kept up concentration when I know the spell has been removed? No, because I'm not an actual spellcaster. :)

If concentration exists as an ongoing chant in your head, then that is certainly not RAW. Additionally, it is totally possible to maintain more than one chant in your head at a time if you practiced. So if this is the fluff that supports concentration, there will also be fluff that supports maintaining concentration at more than one spell at a time.

[Millstone85]

It's kinda silly to not know your concentration spell was dispelled. How do you not know you have stopped concentrating on something?
Have I what? Kept up concentration when I know the spell has been removed?So you know the spell has been removed because you have stopped concentrating on it, and you have stopped concentrating on the spell because you know it has been removed. :smallamused:


it is totally possible to maintain more than one chant in your head at a time if you practiced. So if this is the fluff that supports concentration, there will also be fluff that supports maintaining concentration at more than one spell at a time.Make that however many chants a trained person could imagine simultaneously, or any similar state of mind. The point is that you do not necessarily feel if your concentration does anything.


I think the fluff of manipulating the Weave goes to a RAI on this, that is, you maintain you're Concentrating on your original manipulation and in doing so are actively involved with the Magic, but, yes, there is no RAW.That seems about right.

[LeonBH]

So you know the spell has been removed because you have stopped concentrating on it, and you have stopped concentrating on the spell because you know it has been removed. :smallamused:

This makes sense (I think you're implying I am saying this, so I'll just let you assume so).


Make that however many chants a trained person could imagine simultaneously, or any similar state of mind. The point is that you do not necessarily feel if your concentration does anything.

So spellcasters do not know that concentrating on a spell sustains it. Makes sense.