When plans are spoiled by a PC actually playing their character...

[MrStabby]

Well last night's D&D took a bit of a twist. I had had it all planned out.

My players are now high level and are tooling up for a final showdown. The Paladin (devotion) has been on the lookout for a Holy Avenger since about level 3 - he is now level 15.

I had dangled this in front of the party as a side quest - other PCs had got their powerful items before through such means now it was the Paladin's turn. The tale was over an ancient black dragon living deep in the swamp but raiding villages within reach- an ancient hero, reputed to have a holy avenger had gone to challenge the dragon, but never returned. Simple plot hook.

Party picked it up, chased down the dragon, murdered the crap out of it and looted the horde. There was no Holy Avenger there so out comes locate object and the sword had fallen out in the swamp with the skeletal remains of it's wielder.

I thought job done - paladin has his sword, party balance is restored there is much celebration and dancing in the streets.

The Paladin had other ideas. He picked up the remains and the sword, took them back to the high priest of his order and paid out pretty much all of his share of the loot and much of his campaign gold for a true resurrection spell. Hero comes back to reclaim his sword. In retrospect this behaviour is not entirely out of keeping with a devotion Paladin, especially one who throughout the whole campaign has revered the heroes of old.

Now I am not sure how to handle this.

The easy way is for the hero to give up his weapon to the Paladin in thanks for the resurrection. This seems like it takes away from the players somewhat - no matter what you do you get the consequences I want you to have. It also makes PCs making sacrifices much less interesting.

On the other hand if I just accept the situation, the Paladin player has had a pretty serious punishment and is falling behind the rest of the party in power.

I think I want to give the Paladin some kind of blessing in recompense for the sacrifice he made - something permenant, something that feels unique and something fun. I don't want him to regret the decision.

So far I have come up with:

The paladin has respected the dead heroes not just with words but with actions and sacrifice. The spirits of the dead will now come to the paladin's aid when called. As an action the Paladin may use a use of channel divinity to summon a powerful spirit warrior to his aid (stats to be determined).

Or

The paladin has demonstrated humility and devotion and a willingness to give up worldly possessions to further the greater good. His god shines his light on the paladin. The paladin can emit bright daylight up to 60ft for a minute as an action and they gain a +4 bonus to charisma and a +4 limit to charisma.

Any other ideas? If you were the Paladin what would make it fun for you? What would feel personalised and somewhat compensate for the loss of a very powerful sword?

[Cespenar]

Simply have the hero come to the party's aid in a critical junction? Let him give them an amulet or something to summon him, even.

[Simetra Irertne]

I like the dead spirits coming to his aid option. The resurrected hero could be a recurring character in upcoming games, as someone with a debt to the paladin. It's hard to give the paladin something, especially the Holy Avenger, without seeming like you railroad the plot. He could get some token of favor, which could be used to gain a favor from the hero's party or order? I think having a recurring NPC in debt to him would be interesting. It's a lot of work to come up with an exact personality for a recurring character, but it could be worth it. The paladin might walk into the final fight a bit underpowered, but with an extra divine bonus or something. Depending on the situation, certain enemies could be more vulnerable to divine strikes, or those with the favor of the dead. Your plan for the future games will have to be rewritten a bit, but that's just part of being a DM: laying out a nice straight (or at least mostly straight) path for your players and watching them decide to go the other way.

[Mikal]

Why not have the Gods upgrade *his* current sword into a Holy Avenger?

I mean, he obviously follows the tenants of his oath well, and has done so for a period of time. He brought back a great hero rather than keep it for personal gain.

No reason why his current weapon can't become blessed and a new Holy Avenger, perhaps with a small boost for having purposefully denied himself the weapon he'd wanted for his adventuring career.

Say if he's using a flametongue already, let it keep the flametongue style properties or the like.

[DireSickFish]

I'd reward it with a good story moment. The new Paladin vows to repay the debt to our PC. Not sure what plots you have going on at the moment. But your new Paladin buddy might have knowledge they need to make things easier. Or open up a new path for the group to take.

Then I'd have the resurrected paladin come to the aid of the party at a later time. Not necessarily for a fight, it could be a big RP moment or discussion.

Will your player feel bad if they're mechanically worse off than the rest of the party? The thing about humility and good deeds is that they are their own reward. You aren't doing the good thing because it helps you personally, you do it because it makes the world a better place.

So make the world a better place. There's now a high level paladin with a holy avenger. He could cleanse an area the PC's didn't/couldn't for plot reasons. He could abolish slavery in some far off land. He could redeem some villain that has valuable inlet the party could use, then bring them to the heroes.

[Pex]

Maybe getting a Holy Avenger isn't totally out of the question. The Paladin doesn't get that Holy Avenger because it would cheapen the Honor. Instead, the weapon the Paladin has been using all along becomes a Holy Avenger. That is how Holy Avengers are truly made, not by some spellcaster creating it but by Divine Decree because that Paladin absolutely deserved it.

Other ideas:

Permanent +4 to CH, maximum can reach 24.

Improved Divine Smite is now +2d8 radiant damage or perhaps 1d8 + CH modifier radiant damage.

+1d8 radiant damage to all Divine Smites

The summoning of celestial heroes to aid him could be like the spell Spirit Guardians, usable CH modifier per day refreshes on a long rest, perhaps as a 5th level spell.

All Auras extend to 30 ft now. At level 18 they extend to 60 ft.

[mgshamster]

The summoning of celestial heroes to aid him could be like the spell Spirit Guardians, usable CH modifier per day refreshes on a long rest, perhaps as a 5th level spell.

While the other suggestions are good, I like this one the best. It's really fitting for this particular paladin.

[dejarnjc]

Dude's been given a second chance at life. His first one ended abruptly due to adventuring, seems like he might try something different. If I had been killed by a dragon and dead for a lengthy period of time... I don't think it's a stretch (or railroading at all) to say that I'd probably be interested in retiring from adventuring and handing off my holy sword to one whom is obviously prepared to fight for righteousness. You could easily have the dragon-slain hero head off to find out what remains of his friends/family and then dedicate his life to his God or to healing the sick and feeding the poor.

[xroads]

Why not have the Gods upgrade *his* current sword into a Holy Avenger?


I like this idea. Maybe even have the sword becomes a Holy Avenger at a climatic moment.

[nickl_2000]

Seems to me that instead of either of them, you should look at the boon. The Paladin has played his character to exactly what he should be doing, and in doing so he is rewarded by the gods. A boon is almost by definition a reward from the gods.

Look them over and give him options from a few of them in a roleplayed dream sequence.

Immortality may be decent, although it doesn't give him much more power.
Combat Prowess could be done without breaking to much in the campaign
Spell Recall is amazing and could be done as well.


You could also in the same sequence give him the ability to summon a Holy Avenger as his boon. That way you are giving the player free agency to select what would be the best for him without just saying "here you go"

[Mhl7]

The summoning of celestial heroes to aid him could be like the spell Spirit Guardians, usable CH modifier per day refreshes on a long rest, perhaps as a 5th level spell.


+1 to this idea. It is super thematically fitting!

[Biggstick]

I love the Spirit Guardians idea (based on Cha mod uses per day). It sounds very thematic and appropriate given his willingness to pay for the True Resurrection.

Personally though, I'd go with the providing the PC his own Holy Avenger. What's cool is you can just have it be the PC Paladin's sword the whole time. Go through a dream sequence in which a smith of the Paladin's god takes the sword from the Paladin and forges the now-worthy sword into a Holy Avenger.

[Foxhound438]

I like the increase to charisma idea, and also the spirit guardians one.

[Vorpalchicken]

The resurrected paladin, traumatized by the loss of his love, who died over hundred a years ago curses the name of his diety and becomes a fallen paladin.

[Sigreid]

I'd give him an epic boon that would equal the holy avenger. Maybe athe ability to cast true resurrection himself or so thing equally spectacular.

[DireSickFish]

They did just kill a black dragon, right? Maybe the newly resurrected paladin knows how to make something useful out of it. And that was part of the reason he was going to kill the Black Dragon. And as thanks he makes the dragon bone sword, or Black Dragon plate for the paladin that saved him.

[Sigreid]

Of course RAW the paladin could simply have chosen to not come back.

[BiPolar]

I like this idea. Maybe even have the sword becomes a Holy Avenger at a climatic moment.

Agreed, and having it suddenly imbued with extra power when needed during a climactic part of the adventure makes this even more special.

[nickl_2000]

Of course RAW the paladin could simply have chosen to not come back.

Agreed, but it's a tiny bit late for that.

[Hrugner]

He gave up quite a bit, and has been searching for this sword for a long time. I'm not certain an alternative treasure would be all that appealing in comparison. Perhaps the hero could teach him how to forge his own holy avenger.

[DanyBallon]

I'd favor the Epic Boon as well. By giving the Epic Boon, the character will receive something as valuable as the Holy Avenger, and much more unique. Have the player help you choose what Epic Boon would be most appropriate for his character.

And for roleplay matters, have the resurrected paladin come to help in a non-combat situation.

[Sigreid]

I'd favor the Epic Boon as well. By giving the Epic Boon, the character will receive something as valuable as the Holy Avenger, and much more unique. Have the player help you choose what Epic Boon would be most appropriate for his character.

And for roleplay matters, have the resurrected paladin come to help in a non-combat situation.
That's my thinking. His character deserves to be blessed directly by his god as much as any character I've heard of.

[Spore]

I have played a priestes to 11/13 before (Pathfinder Oracle, so more like Favored Soul) and I found it to be the greatest honor to have an actual audience with my goddess who granted me a protector. I am still for a fitting item instead of a homebrewed ability.

Some ideas:
1) Instant fortress: Fortifications save lives, tactical advantages save lifes. That being said, this is quite pointless if your last chapter doesnt involve a war of some sort.

2) Armor of Invulnerability + Ring of Regeneration: Your god needs you as healthy as can be.

3) Iron Horn of Valhalla (refluffed): Similar idea as the Divine Guardians but different. Basically a pocket army in a pinch.

4) Sun Blade +3

5) Belt of Cloud/Storm Giant Strength

[solidork]

If, in character, he sticks to his guns and tries to refuse any reward, frame it this way: he and his friends are gearing up for the final battle. Can he ethically refuse something that might tip the scales in their favor? I don't know what the stakes in your campaign happen to be, but my guess is that they are probably pretty high.

[toapat]

Why not have the Gods upgrade *his* current sword into a Holy Avenger?

well, not the gods specifically. Good Itself created the Holy Avenger. Cast the original from the Positive Elemental Plane to the Prime Material, Where the first paladin took up the blade and was empowered in their will to stop the onslaught of Evil upon the paladin's realm.

All Avengers are patterned after the First Avenger and empowered by it, and through each avenger, can the First Avenger empower a new generation of blade, if the bearer of the blade is Deemed worthy

[Ruslan]

The Paladin had other ideas. He picked up the remains and the sword, took them back to the high priest of his order and paid out pretty much all of his share of the loot and much of his campaign gold for a true resurrection spell. Hero comes back to reclaim his sword. In retrospect this behaviour is not entirely out of keeping with a devotion Paladin, especially one who throughout the whole campaign has revered the heroes of old.

Now I am not sure how to handle this.
How to handle this? The hero and the high priest are both NPCs under your control. If your want the Paladin to have the sword, you can have them say "you have proven your worth, Knight, you are the destined wielder of the Holy Avenger. Take it and go forth."

[Corran]

I like this idea. Maybe even have the sword becomes a Holy Avenger at a climatic moment.
Yeah, that would please me if I were in your player's shoes.


The resurrected paladin, traumatized by the loss of his love, who died over hundred a years ago curses the name of his diety and becomes a fallen paladin.
But that, if you handle it nicely, has even better potential.
The hero and the group part in the best of terms. After some in-game time (could be months or years, depending on your campaign's pace), they meet again but on completely different terms. The party has been tracking down this new villain that is terrorizing that place of your world. To the surprise of the party, the villain is that same hero they ressurected. Why? Lots of potetial good reasons. Maybe it was because the shock that everyone he once knew is now dead and this knowledge didnt sink in quite well with him. Maybe it is because his former friends and allies were ''betrayed'' and were dealt a cruel death at the hands of those the paladin once served (enter the chirch of his god). Maybe it was because he was not allowed into the afterlife of his deity or sth, or because his heroic deeds in life were not rewarded as he thinks they should have been. Whatever, it doesn't matter, you'll probably think of a better reason that ties to your campaign story. The conversation between him and your players just before the final showdown is looking to be a very promising one, judging by your players' commitment to roleplaying. And after everything has been said and just before you roll initiative, have him say in your best Khan voice: ''You should have let me sleep!!!!''

[LordVonDerp]

Well last night's D&D took a bit of a twist. I had had it all planned out.

My players are now high level and are tooling up for a final showdown. The Paladin (devotion) has been on the lookout for a Holy Avenger since about level 3 - he is now level 15.

I had dangled this in front of the party as a side quest - other PCs had got their powerful items before through such means now it was the Paladin's turn. The tale was over an ancient black dragon living deep in the swamp but raiding villages within reach- an ancient hero, reputed to have a holy avenger had gone to challenge the dragon, but never returned. Simple plot hook.

Party picked it up, chased down the dragon, murdered the crap out of it and looted the horde. There was no Holy Avenger there so out comes locate object and the sword had fallen out in the swamp with the skeletal remains of it's wielder.

I thought job done - paladin has his sword, party balance is restored there is much celebration and dancing in the streets.

The Paladin had other ideas. He picked up the remains and the sword, took them back to the high priest of his order and paid out pretty much all of his share of the loot and much of his campaign gold for a true resurrection spell. Hero comes back to reclaim his sword. In retrospect this behaviour is not entirely out of keeping with a devotion Paladin, especially one who throughout the whole campaign has revered the heroes of old.

Now I am not sure how to handle this.


The easy solution would have been to have the dead guy refuse the resurrection, return the money to the paladin, and move on.

[Trampaige]

The easy solution would have been to have the dead guy refuse the resurrection, return the money to the paladin, and move on.

Easy, sure, but how deflating and potentially rail-roady in feeling for the paladin. This story is one of the coolest outcomes that I've read.

Some kind of unique/powerful ability definitely sounds like the way to go. I mean, even from a narrative perspective... he has dedicated his life to acquiring a certain power, and when given the opportunity, took the higher road and returned it to its rightful owner. Maybe he's not destined to have a holy avenger. That kind of roleplay and sacrifice is fantastic.

[Unoriginal]

Well last night's D&D took a bit of a twist. I had had it all planned out.

My players are now high level and are tooling up for a final showdown. The Paladin (devotion) has been on the lookout for a Holy Avenger since about level 3 - he is now level 15.

I had dangled this in front of the party as a side quest - other PCs had got their powerful items before through such means now it was the Paladin's turn. The tale was over an ancient black dragon living deep in the swamp but raiding villages within reach- an ancient hero, reputed to have a holy avenger had gone to challenge the dragon, but never returned. Simple plot hook.

Party picked it up, chased down the dragon, murdered the crap out of it and looted the horde. There was no Holy Avenger there so out comes locate object and the sword had fallen out in the swamp with the skeletal remains of it's wielder.

I thought job done - paladin has his sword, party balance is restored there is much celebration and dancing in the streets.

The Paladin had other ideas. He picked up the remains and the sword, took them back to the high priest of his order and paid out pretty much all of his share of the loot and much of his campaign gold for a true resurrection spell. Hero comes back to reclaim his sword. In retrospect this behaviour is not entirely out of keeping with a devotion Paladin, especially one who throughout the whole campaign has revered the heroes of old.

Now I am not sure how to handle this.

The easy way is for the hero to give up his weapon to the Paladin in thanks for the resurrection. This seems like it takes away from the players somewhat - no matter what you do you get the consequences I want you to have. It also makes PCs making sacrifices much less interesting.

On the other hand if I just accept the situation, the Paladin player has had a pretty serious punishment and is falling behind the rest of the party in power.

I think I want to give the Paladin some kind of blessing in recompense for the sacrifice he made - something permenant, something that feels unique and something fun. I don't want him to regret the decision.

So far I have come up with:

The paladin has respected the dead heroes not just with words but with actions and sacrifice. The spirits of the dead will now come to the paladin's aid when called. As an action the Paladin may use a use of channel divinity to summon a powerful spirit warrior to his aid (stats to be determined).

Or

The paladin has demonstrated humility and devotion and a willingness to give up worldly possessions to further the greater good. His god shines his light on the paladin. The paladin can emit bright daylight up to 60ft for a minute as an action and they gain a +4 bonus to charisma and a +4 limit to charisma.

Any other ideas? If you were the Paladin what would make it fun for you? What would feel personalised and somewhat compensate for the loss of a very powerful sword?


Have the ancient hero assist the party in their quest. Maybe the hero knows where another weapon of legend is, and will help them get it.


Or, if you don't want to, you could make so that the hero knows the secret of how to make the Paladin's blade into a Holy Avenger.


In any case, you should make it so that the Paladin becomes legendary on their own right. Bringing back a hero of legend like this, by sacrificing this much? It deserves to have people praise the Paladin, other Good characters to congratulate him, and that kind of things.


I'd advise against going the cheap way like "ancient hero become evil" or something of that level.

[oncnawan]

Dead spirits return to aid him ... Once per day he casts spirit guardians at an appropriately high level without using a spell slot and without using concentration.

[Drackolus]

-Some session in the future-

"The balor grins at you, hellfire spewing from his eyes. His blade pierces your chest, and your vision fades from the outside in. You hear the bellowing laughter of the fiend as your vision goes black.

"For an eternity, you see nothing but darkness, feel nothing but the cold, think nothing but of your failure. Over centuries, you slowly begin to hear a whisper. As it gradually enters your consciousness, you begin to see a warm, light blue. You feel warmth for the first time in ages. The voice is becoming clearer, and it sounds as though it's saying something. The blue turns to Absolute Light, but your eyes feel no pain. The heat of all the world's life burns in your soul, but you feel only comfort. The Voice with No Sound becomes audible;

"As you have become Of Me, through unwavering devotion; so do I become Of You.'

"You awake, with your sword imbedded in the Balor's chest. It glows with the light of your soul, and the beasts falls into the True Death, it's stunned look frozen on it's face. Your blade, forged through the light of the Plane of Radiance, channeled through your pure heart, has become the next of the Holy Avengers."

[Slipperychicken]

I'd have the hero swear loyalty to the paladin. The paladin can accept and get the hero as a player-controlled NPC party member, or refuse and just get the holy avenger.

If I was in that player's position, I'd want a loyal ass-kicking NPC hero. Ideally one that doesn't start complaining every time I loot a body.

[Corran]

I'd advise against going the cheap way like "ancient hero become evil" or something of that level.
Wow, your name is really misleading...:smallsmile:

[Beelzebubba]

In a way, the PC fulfilled the quest the dead Paladin wanted to finish.

Here's an idea:

Who says the dead Paladin wants to come back? He's been in 'heaven' for a long time. His work is done, his reward is here. He can rest. He's home.

Have the dead Paladin remain in the hereafter, and come to the head of the church and the PC in a vision and bequeath the sword to him, with the promise to continue (some oath).

[EternalPrime]

I'd have the newly resurrected hero tell the PC that his holy avenger has a twin that was lost just before he went after the black dragon and suggest that he (the PC) should find it and claim it.
Now you get to make another side quest. The PC will get a holy avenger and it won't seem like a cheesy, random "gift from the gods."

[KorvinStarmast]

The suggestions I like best are:

1. Iron Horn of Valhalla (refluffed): The warriors do radiant damage.

2. The Spirit Guardian thing. Neat.

3. Once per long rest, the light thing. Also neat.

4. Upgrade his sword to Holy Avenger.

I so love what this player did. So very RP centric.

[Phoenix042]

I've read through these and I think I'm casting my vote for a multi-pronged approach, for several reasons.

First, the story reward:
The player RP'd his character really well, and that's a really cool thing to do. First, rather than JUST thinking about how to reward the player by boosting the character, you should think about what this success means: this action should have consequences for the good. This resurrected paladin should change the landscape of the game world somewhat. Maybe he goes and deals with a looming threat or problem that the PC's were otherwise going to have to face, or he starts a new divine order called "The Risen", an order of paladins knighted by the holy avenger and dedicated to collecting and protecting divine artifacts; if the PC visits sometime later, maybe they honor him with a gift of his choosing.

Second, the divine boon:
An archangel visits him in a dream, and grants him a boon of his choosing, like some people are saying. The player then has the option to pick a power he wants.

Third, the new power:
The player learns the archangels true name, allowing him to summon the archangel in times of great need. If the player uses the name rarely and only in dire circumstances, the archangel will always heed his call.

Fourth, the new test:
While heaven sees his deeds and rewards him for them, so too do the forces of hell see his selflessness, standing out like a beacon against the sinfulness of humanity. An extraordinary price is placed on his soul by a lord of hell. He becomes plagued by demons specifically trying to corrupt or tempt or destroy him, and who weave their way into his adventures in unexpected places. While these encounters are trying, they are also opportunities to earn greater recognition from the heavens (and hells, for that matter - leading to even greater "opportunities").


I'll admit, my instinct was to just give the player his holy avenger, but you're right, his choice to give it up in service of his ideals should be respected. I think it's a really cool idea to give him rewards that seem to come straight from heaven itself.

[Galadhrim]

Lots of good suggestions. Please don't have this npc come back as evil. That is the opposite of his character's intent and says to all of your character's don't roleplay bc I'll screw you over for no reason.

As for a reward, one of the boons granted divinely would be great. The spirit guardians idea is also really nice and role play wise I think is spot on. I would say be careful that it competes with his concentration where a Holy Avenger is a straight power boost. Someone suggested letting him use it charisma mod per long rest concentration free. I think that would be the way to go if you use spirit guardians.

[Vorpalchicken]

I don't see the evil option as screwing over the player.
If the ancient paladin turned evil, the PC paladin would have the justification or even the duty to reclaim the sword for himself. And the campaign would have an interesting new adversary.
It's also possible that the ancient paladin was evil all along as there is no alignment restriction to prohibit this.

[Laserlight]

I don't see the evil option as screwing over the player.

Bringing back the hero as evil is saying to the paladin "your noble deed was not merely stupid and pointless, it actually made things worse! You should have just been a greedy murderhobo like the rogue!" --so yeah, it's screwing the player. Don't do that.

[MrStabby]

Thanks for the great responses. There is a lot here to think about. I think some form of divine boon might be in order - the ancestor spirits ideas seems to be the favourite.

I was thinking that the Paladin might also be proclaimed a saint. Mechanically not much of a difference but I was thinking that this would be represented by the character channelling divine power to others and I would represent this by allowing them to become a warlock patron and having a sect devoted to their teachings.

[Corran]

Bringing back the hero as evil is saying to the paladin "your noble deed was not merely stupid and pointless, it actually made things worse! You should have just been a greedy murderhobo like the rogue!" --so yeah, it's screwing the player. Don't do that.
I dont agree with this. Granted, if this is rushed by the DM and executed poorly, the player might feel that way, I give you that. But if handled properly (and delaying this plays a big role, ie have it be a side quest in the future), it has a lot of potential. If the resurrected paly was ancients even, turning oathbreaker could be all about losing hope and succumbing to despair. 'Waking up' after what, a century, two, more(?), and finding out that all your loved ones are long gone, can have an effect like that on that hero of old. Turning him oathbreaker and having him confront the party eventually, can make for much more than a ''muhaha, I am suddenyl evil, come and get that sword from me if you can'' moment. In fact, it can make for some serious rp, having him confront the PC's (especially the paladin) about the wisdom of his decision of interupting his rest after such a long time and bringing him into a world where he has nothing left to care for. That's some heavy stuff, and presenting a realistic and crude side of the logistics of an otherwise good intended act (ie resurrect dead hero) can add a lot of 'realism' in the campaign, taking it in a whole different direction than the classic fairytale where in the end everyone gets to live hapily ever after. It shows in practice that tempering good will with wisdom and caution (especially if the paladin did not talk this over with the rest of the group) is more than a saying.

Yes, it can make for a bad story if done in a rush. But it has a LOT of potential, and it can differentiate quite a lot from being just another cliche twist.
-----------------------------------------
As for rewarding good rp... what better than to throw your paladin against this oathbreaker? Not only because of the implied antithesis of their characters, but also because the occurance of this new villain has everything to do with the paladin's actions, being his responsibility and all to undo the evil he accidentally (and unwisely) unleashed upon the world. The rp between them (and the group) just before the final showdown could be the best reward this player could want. And as for the weapon, having his own sword become a holy avenger during that fight (as others have already suggested) could be the best way to give him the nice toy (the other's paladin sword became unholy, or mundane, or whatever).

[DanyBallon]

I dont agree with this. Granted, if this is rushed by the DM and executed poorly, the player might feel that way, I give you that. But if handled properly (and delaying this plays a big role, ie have it be a side quest in the future), it has a lot of potential. If the resurrected paly was ancients even, turning oathbreaker could be all about losing hope and succumbing to despair. 'Waking up' after what, a century, two, more(?), and finding out that all your loved ones are long gone, can have an effect like that on that hero of old. Turning him oathbreaker and having him confront the party eventually, can make for much more than a ''muhaha, I am suddenyl evil, come and get that sword from me if you can'' moment. In fact, it can make for some serious rp, having him confront the PC's (especially the paladin) about the wisdom of his decision of interupting his rest after such a long time and bringing him into a world where he has nothing left to care for. That's some heavy stuff, and presenting a realistic and crude side of the logistics of an otherwise good intended act (ie resurrect dead hero) can add a lot of 'realism' in the campaign, taking it in a whole different direction than the classic fairytale where in the end everyone gets to live hapily ever after. It shows in practice that tempering good will with wisdom and caution (especially if the paladin did not talk this over with the rest of the group) is more than a saying.

Yes, it can make for a bad story if done in a rush. But it has a LOT of potential, and it can differentiate quite a lot from being just another cliche twist.
-----------------------------------------
As for rewarding good rp... what better than to throw your paladin against this oathbreaker? Not only because of the implied antithesis of their characters, but also because the occurance of this new villain has everything to do with the paladin's actions, being his responsibility and all to undo the evil he accidentally (and unwisely) unleashed upon the world. The rp between them (and the group) just before the final showdown could be the best reward this player could want. And as for the weapon, having his own sword become a holy avenger during that fight (as others have already suggested) could be the best way to give him the nice toy (the other's paladin sword became unholy, or mundane, or whatever).

I agree, there is a lot of potential with your scenario! I'd have the resurrected paladin be thankful at first and maybe helpful as well in the first few months of its resurrection, but as the time goes the loss of his loved ones begin to take a toll on him. By keeping interaction between the party and the paladin the DM could show up the growing grudge against the character.

[BurgerBeast]

IMHO the "reward" has to be greater for this than for if the player simply took the sword. The reason I used quotes is because, depending on the player, the reward need not be mechanical (though I tend to think way as both player and DM, for many it's enough to deliver story rewards or personalized story moments).

I really like Corran's idea.

[Laserlight]

about the wisdom of his decision of interupting his rest after such a long time and bringing him into a world where he has nothing left to care for. That's some heavy stuff, and presenting a realistic and crude side of the logistics of an otherwise good intended act (ie resurrect dead hero) can add a lot of 'realism' in the campaign, taking it in a whole different direction than the classic fairytale where in the end everyone gets to live hapily ever after. It shows in practice that tempering good will with wisdom and caution (especially if the paladin did not talk this over with the rest of the group) is more than a saying.

Yes, it can make for a bad story if done in a rush. But it has a LOT of potential, and it can differentiate quite a lot from being just another cliche twist.


As for it not being a cliche -- for forty years I've seen DMs conniving to get paladins to fall. I've almost never seen one conniving to get an antipaladin to turn to the light. (How often do you see a DM say "Yes, you burned down the orphanage because you're playing a CE maniac, but no one was hurt and it uncovered a vault full of silver that no one knew about. They were able to use that to kill the wererat, rebuild the orphanage bigger and better, and buy guild apprenticeships for all the kids. You made things better!"). "Hero turns evil" would, IMHO, be about as cliche as you can get. But that's not the point; the point is that doing it devalues the player's sacrifice. I will concede that "No matter how noble your intent, the DM will twist it for evil" (plus a few uninhibited actresses) may get you a series on HBO. However, I will point out that there are a lot of people who dislike that series for exactly that reason.

At the end of the day, though, it's up to the DM's read on his players and campaign. In a heroic D&D campaign, I'd play it straight, let the hero be heroic and give the paladin a boon or something. In a Dark Heresy campaign, I would not only corrupt the hero, I'd also corrupt the priest who cast the spell, and the hero's great great granddaughter who looks a lot like the hero's wife did, oh, and while we're at it, the wife is actually still around as a vampire. Go big or go home.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will concede that "No matter how noble your intent, the DM will twist it for evil" (plus a few uninhibited actresses) may get you a series on HBO. However, I will point out that there are a lot of people who dislike that series for exactly that reason. What series are you referring to?

Also: your point on DMs and their never ending quest to screw over paladins is about as old as the paladin class, at least the 1e version that had the overkill / fall imbedded in it.

[solidork]

Also, you can only resurrect someone if they want to come back.

[solidork]

What series are you referring to?

Also: your point on DMs and their never ending quest to screw over paladins is about as old as the paladin class, at least the 1e version that had the overkill / fall imbedded in it.

Game of Thrones, most likely.

It's kind of amusing, because part of the books that didn't make it into the TV show(yet) is:
Someone gives their life to resurrect one of the main characters after they are brutally betrayed and murdered, and they come back as a twisted and vengeful version of themselves. It's not a total surprise, it's was established earlier that this kind of resurrection results in a "came back (slightly) wrong" scenario.

[KorvinStarmast]

Game of Thrones, most likely.
Ah, I read the books, and I get what you are referring to in the spoiler. Am looking forward to the last season. GoT's take on Dragons, the TV show, I like a lot.

[Addaran]

Since you mentionned they are in the last stretch, planning for the final battle and you're worried he'd feel less powerful. I'd make his sword temporarily turn into the holy avenger for the last battle as the hero/deity help him in his time of need.

Since he was so selfless and generous, i think boosting his aura would be a great reward. It would up the overall party level, making him even better at his support role which he seems to love. That will make him even more valuable then already to his party.

Like multiple people said, an RP reward would also be nice. No matter how the last fight goes, he's already legendary in this country, as the old hero tell everyone of his limitless generosity. If he doesn't survive, his spirit can flight over his homechurch, seeing them already constructing a statu in his honor.

For the last fight, if one party member is about to die or fall unconscious, thus dropping an important concentration spell, you could give the paladin the ability to switch place with the victim. Chances are he can survive it (he's tougher) and that's another time he'll shine as the selfless hero, helping others before himself.

[Corran]

As for it not being a cliche -- for forty years I've seen DMs conniving to get paladins to fall. I've almost never seen one conniving to get an antipaladin to turn to the light. (How often do you see a DM say "Yes, you burned down the orphanage because you're playing a CE maniac, but no one was hurt and it uncovered a vault full of silver that no one knew about. They were able to use that to kill the wererat, rebuild the orphanage bigger and better, and buy guild apprenticeships for all the kids. You made things better!"). "Hero turns evil" would, IMHO, be about as cliche as you can get. But that's not the point; the point is that doing it devalues the player's sacrifice. I will concede that "No matter how noble your intent, the DM will twist it for evil" (plus a few uninhibited actresses) may get you a series on HBO. However, I will point out that there are a lot of people who dislike that series for exactly that reason.

At the end of the day, though, it's up to the DM's read on his players and campaign. In a heroic D&D campaign, I'd play it straight, let the hero be heroic and give the paladin a boon or something. In a Dark Heresy campaign, I would not only corrupt the hero, I'd also corrupt the priest who cast the spell, and the hero's great great granddaughter who looks a lot like the hero's wife did, oh, and while we're at it, the wife is actually still around as a vampire. Go big or go home.
Agreed 100% on the bolded part, obviously.
As for the rest, fair enough, hero turning villain is a lot more cliche than villain turning to a good guy. But it also matters a lot about how you go about the first scenario (meaning that it doesn't have to feel like a rip-off from a B-movie, you can add deapth to it).
But the part I was focusing my disagreement, was that such a turn of events does not screw the player's rp and in-game choices. In fact, it builds on them, and by finally providing him the opportunity to fix this mess I would think that the majority of players at the shoes of the palyer playing the paladin would feel very gratified. Yes, it depends on what that player seeks from the game, you are right to mention that, and this is exactly why the opinion that such a decision on a DM's part would punish the player's rp is not one I agree with, at least in general.

[Galadhrim]

Agreed 100% on the bolded part, obviously.
As for the rest, fair enough, hero turning villain is a lot more cliche than villain turning to a good guy. But it also matters a lot about how you go about the first scenario (meaning that it doesn't have to feel like a rip-off from a B-movie, you can add deapth to it).But the part I was focusing my disagreement, was that such a turn of events does not screw the player's rp and in-game choices. In fact, it builds on them, and by finally providing him the opportunity to fix this mess I would think that the majority of players at the shoes of the palyer playing the paladin would feel very gratified. Yes, it depends on what that player seeks from the game, you are right to mention that, and this is exactly why the opinion that such a decision on a DM's part would punish the player's rp is not one I agree with, at least in general.

I agree with you on this. It can be done well and in a way that does not feel cheap and counterproductive. But, as even you said, it takes a lot of work and planning on the DM's behalf to pull that off. If that is the route you choose to go, tread lightly.

I just find that sometimes DM's are so bent on not being cliché that they eliminate the ability to have Good outcomes. Very often it comes off with a feeling that no matter what a character does for good, that situation will lead to worsening evil in the world. That can be quite frustrating for a character that takes his responsibility toward good seriously in a role-play sense. Not all players care about that, but given this guys choices so far I'm guessing he does. No Good deed goes unpunished.

[Unoriginal]

The "ancient hero turns evil" is not only a big "f*** you" to any player invested in giving up something they care about for a NPC's sake, and reeks of "DM must make the Paladin do eviiiiiiiil things", it also make no sense from a character standpoint.

The hero has fought before. They have seen their loved ones die. And if they really found being back that unbearable, they could just die again, either by simply killing themselves or by finding a bigger, nastier monster and having a warrior's death again.

Furthermore, the hero has spent years and years in a Good-aligned afterlife, enjoying the pleasures and feeling of fulfillment the place offer. Why would they suddendly grow disillusioned about being Good?

Not to mention all of the evil acts the person brought back to life did would be the Paladin's fault, so unless you want to go for "ahahaha stupid Paladin, you really thought being Good and RPing would be rewarded?", don't do it

The ONLY way it would make sense to have is if the remains the Paladin found were never the hero's in the first place, and he resurrected a thief or a bad guy who was trying to steal the Holy Avenger.


If DM decided to use the occasion to introduce an expy of Patches from Dark Souls, who would guide the adventurers to "treasure" before kicking them down a hole, only for the spirit of the actual hero to show up (maybe from the inside of the Holy Avenger itsefl) and help them, then it'd be worth it.

[DanyBallon]

The "ancient hero turns evil" is not only a big "f*** you" to any player invested in giving up something they care about for a NPC's sake, and reeks of "DM must make the Paladin do eviiiiiiiil things", it also make no sense from a character standpoint.

The hero has fought before. They have seen their loved ones die. And if they really found being back that unbearable, they could just die again, either by simply killing themselves or by finding a bigger, nastier monster and having a warrior's death again.

Furthermore, the hero has spent years and years in a Good-aligned afterlife, enjoying the pleasures and feeling of fulfillment the place offer. Why would they suddendly grow disillusioned about being Good?

Not to mention all of the evil acts the person brought back to life did would be the Paladin's fault, so unless you want to go for "ahahaha stupid Paladin, you really thought being Good and RPing would be rewarded?", don't do it

The ONLY way it would make sense to have is if the remains the Paladin found were never the hero's in the first place, and he resurrected a thief or a bad guy who was trying to steal the Holy Avenger.


If DM decided to use the occasion to introduce an expy of Patches from Dark Souls, who would guide the adventurers to "treasure" before kicking them down a hole, only for the spirit of the actual hero to show up (maybe from the inside of the Holy Avenger itsefl) and help them, then it'd be worth it.

the ancient hero do not need to turn evil, he can just develop a grudge against the character that resurrected him. The more the time pass he'll long for his past and his long gone loved ones, until at one point he truly believes that it's all the character is responsible for its current predication. This animosity shouldn't happen just like that. The character should be able to notice this transformation through interacting with the NPC. You can do this either through skill checks or through role playing. May the character fail to notice, or fail to act, then, the NPC may become an force that oppose the character. Also, an opposing force is not necessarily evil either.

[Finlam]

Any other ideas? If you were the Paladin what would make it fun for you? What would feel personalised and somewhat compensate for the loss of a very powerful sword?

If you're comfortable extending the quest just a little, there may be a way to let the Paladin have his cake and eat it too:

The resurrected hero did not just find his Holy Avenger, he made it through deed and earning the blessings of the gods. He senses the same divine energy within the Paladin's sword. The hero knows of a holy place where the Paladin may cleanse the sword in the purest spring and offer prayers to the gods to awaken their blessing upon the weapon.

Of course the hero cannot go, but he provides the party a magical amulet that, when broken, will summon him to their side from no matter where he is.


----
The quest is just lengthened, not postponed or subverted, the whole party gets a reward for the detour, and the Paladin gets to have his Nice Thing and feel that he earned it.

[Unoriginal]

the ancient hero do not need to turn evil, he can just develop a grudge against the character that resurrected him. The more the time pass he'll long for his past and his long gone loved ones, until at one point he truly believes that it's all the character is responsible for its current predication. This animosity shouldn't happen just like that. The character should be able to notice this transformation through interacting with the NPC. You can do this either through skill checks or through role playing. May the character fail to notice, or fail to act, then, the NPC may become an force that oppose the character. Also, an opposing force is not necessarily evil either.


Yeah, no. An opposing force is not necessarily evil, but being a serious threat to someone who brought you back to life out of the goodness of their heart just because you find that living is hard is not something a good person would do. Especially when there are easy solutions to being alive when you're an adventurer, if they find that unbearable.

Also, people were talking about Oathbreaker paladin, who are indeed necessarily and intensely evil.

And once again, it's s***ing all over what the Paladin tried to do.

There is a value in the "be careful what you wish for" stories, and there is a value in stories where a good person become an horrible one. But this is *not* one of those time.

Good persons should be allowed to be and stay good persons, sometime, without the DM deciding they cannot allow this any longer.

[solidork]

I will agree that there is room for nuance; look at Captain America's character arc in the MCU.

[gfishfunk]

The prior hero, now bereft of a quest, now wants to reconnect with the remaining people that are still alive, or his descendants depending on when he died. He loans the Holy Avenger to the Paladin.

[solidork]

We also have to keep in mind that the paladin had the option of not returning, but chose to anyways. We need to think about his reasons for accepting after the fact. What would make him decide to come back so long after he has been dead? What did he think the motivations of the people resurrecting him might be? I think a pretty likely reason for both would be that there is some dark force at work in the world, and that he is needed to fight it. Maybe he would be resentful if the party expects him to go sit on the sidelines. Maybe he has strange ideas about what a worthy cause to fight for is, or how to go about fighting for it. But making him evil? Nah.

[Vogie]

I think an interesting thing to do is have the Holy Avenger in the DM's back pocket as an Ex Machina. At some point in the future, if there's ever a battle that isn't going their direction (possibly because the paladin is falling behind, or you've designed the encounter to be overbearingly harsh, or both), and the Holy Avenger shows up to assist to save the Paladin, and the rest of the party in the process. At which point, that Holy Avenger can bequeath the item or items he or she is lacking. A one-shot divine intervention that they have, but do not know about

[Unoriginal]

I think you mean a Chekhov's Gun. A Deus Ex Machina is different.

[Vogie]

I think you mean a Chekhov's Gun. A Deus Ex Machina is different.

No, I mean a deus ex machina. A "a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object."

In this case, a Holy Avenger who shows up when they weren't expected, to save the party when they're expected to wipe.

[Temperjoke]

You know, you wouldn't even need to go as esoteric as having the heavens or a deity grant the paladin a boon as a reward. It's a fairly standard trope that the ancients knew secrets and had abilities that were lost to the passage of time. Maybe this resurrected hero knows something and can mentor the paladin for a week or two, and help him learn one of the aforementioned boons. "We don't have a lot of time, but I should be able to help you to learn one of my powers before your encounter."

"I'd also like for you to take my sword to aid in your fight, so you have a reason to return so I can share more of my knowledge so that these skills will not be lost to time again." If you'd still like to have the paladin wield the Holy Avenger. Assuming the Paladin survives, maybe he and the resurrected hero can form a new order of paladins in your world, adding to the continuity and rewarding the player out of game for sticking to his character!

[Unoriginal]

You know, you wouldn't even need to go as esoteric as having the heavens or a deity grant the paladin a boon as a reward. It's a fairly standard trope that the ancients knew secrets and had abilities that were lost to the passage of time. Maybe this resurrected hero knows something and can mentor the paladin for a week or two, and help him learn one of the aforementioned boons. "We don't have a lot of time, but I should be able to help you to learn one of my powers before your encounter."

"I'd also like for you to take my sword to aid in your fight, so you have a reason to return so I can share more of my knowledge so that these skills will not be lost to time again." If you'd still like to have the paladin wield the Holy Avenger. Assuming the Paladin survives, maybe he and the resurrected hero can form a new order of paladins in your world, adding to the continuity and rewarding the player out of game for sticking to his character!

You could also go the other way: the ancient hero's methods of fighting are pretty outdated, so they decide to stay behind to not be a liability in battle while they train to get up to date.

[Nerull59]

Hallo.
New here!

Not sure if still going on as there are 60+ replies, and I read some, but I will list my suggestions below.

Valorous deed
It is a great idea to award the player with something of the magnitude of an Epic Boon.
Be careful to limit, maybe, something that might break the game early on.

One for all, and all for one
Maybe, as a gift from the gods, this Paladin could increase the number of attuned items by 1 as a divine gift.
That would make him able to attune to a 4th piece of equipment.

Avatar of Radiance
His deeds and choices in life awakened the very essence of the Holy Avenger.
He has become the most perfect weapon as he is the Avatar of Radiance himself.
As a bonus action, any melee weapon he is wielding, no matter what kind, properties or proficient, loses its magical properties, ignites in holy light and becomes a Holy Avenger.
The Paladin will always be proficient with that weapon.
This allows the Paladin to have a Holy Avenger out of any melee weapon, such as shortsword, scythe, greataxe, dagger, rapier etc., giving him a little versatility and flavor.

He who shall be named
Something that could be given along with other gift.
The Paladin has engraved his name into the Book of Immortality, having it echoing through eternity.
This gives the Paladin some benefits as 'advantage' in Charisma based checks and tests, easy access to some information or attendance to his or the party needs, among other RP possibilities.

Guardian angel
Although I liked the idea of it, I believe summoning the hero Charisma times per day would be a little annoying for someone who recently saw the light of day with eyes immersed into darkness.
Instead, I would do as the Divine Intervention of the Clerics as level 20, with 100% chances of summoning, and the hero would help him in a better way, more useful or powerful way and then require a seven-day rest before being able to do so again.
Better yet, instead of the hero, which kind of makes no sense, his god blessed him with the ability to call upon a personification of an Avatar or an Aspect of one of his domains.

Touched by the Gods
His god decide to impart part of his might upon the Paladin.
As a result, every time he finishes a long rest he can choose any concentration spell of level 2 or less, that would make sense [so you, the DM, could limit the list] and he would be under the effect of the spell until he finishes his next long rest.
The spell does not need to be concentrated for this purpose.
So he could be under the effect of Shield of Faith spell or Pass Without Trace, or Invisibility, or Enhance Ability, or Detect Thoughts, or Branding Smite, or Blur, or Alter Self, Divine Favor, or Protection from Good and Evil, or Detect Magic, or Bless [self] etc.
• In the case of Invisibility, if he attacks, you become visible for 2d4 turns, after which the invisibility kicks back in.
• In the case of Alter Self, if someone physically interacts with him or succeeds a check, the illusion dissipates for 2d4 turns, ater which it kicks back in.

Peritus Extraordinaire
His god has given him an inconceivable gift.
The Paladin can choose any one ability of any class of no higher than class level 8 and master for his own.
He could choose, for instance, Assassinate from the Rogue, Divine Strike from the Cleric, Animal Companion from the Ranger, Wild Shape from the Druid etc.
Make sure to adjust the class level cap in case you think it is too OP.
• In the case of Animal Companion you could give him a spirit, spectral or ethereal version of a beast.
• In the case of Wild Shape you could allow him to shape into a specific spirit, angel etc. being 1/day.

I would treat him nicely for his valorous deed.
Hope I could add up to anything said here.

[hamiltond465]

As a sort of middle ground to the hero/ fallen hero thing:

It was actually a thief who made some good bluff checks upon waking up.

After 100 years in the Abyss, they're very ready to turn over a new leaf and was only going with the flow post-resurrection.

Now they needs to play the role of the hero, or perhaps come clean to avoid adding to their sins?

[Pex]

As a sort of middle ground to the hero/ fallen hero thing:

It was actually a thief who made some good bluff checks upon waking up.

After 100 years in the Abyss, they're very ready to turn over a new leaf and was only going with the flow post-resurrection.

Now they needs to play the role of the hero, or perhaps come clean to avoid adding to their sins?

This, or making the resurrected hero evil, is what teaches players to kill all prisoners, never let any opponent retreat/run away to be hunted down and slaughtered, assume all NPCs are lying, trust no one, and all other sorts of murder hoboism.

[Vorpalchicken]

I have a feeling the paladin player didn't make the sacrifice for the purpose of gaining an "even greater reward." That player was just playing the character selflessly- no reward is expected, at least not in this life. DnD doesn't have to be a morality play.
The resurrected paladin turning bad isn't meant to be punishment. It's just plot. ( and a possible way for the player to end up with the Holy Avenger after all with no guilt.)
But sure, give the paladin a boon if you like. Just be careful not to wreck your game.

[Unoriginal]

I have a feeling the paladin player didn't make the sacrifice for the purpose of gaining an "even greater reward." That player was just playing the character selflessly- no reward is expected, at least not in this life.

Yes, Paladin didn't expect a reward, but I'd say that they deserves one, even if it's only the in-story characters who want to reward them.


The resurrected paladin turning bad isn't meant to be punishment.

It would still be be, though.

[ATHATH]

Note: I've only read the first page, so if something important has happened in the last two pages, please forgive me.

Maybe have the player/the Paladin choose between some of the ideas offered here, possibly in a dream-sequence?

[Chaosmancer]

I think there is one large cognitive misstep with the logic behind tge hero turning evil or holding a grudge.

The story of him turning because of all his loved ones being dead doesn't make sense. It works for a transported thru time story, but that isn't this.

"All my loved ones are dead... Just like I was... And are in the eternal bliss of the heavens... Like i was..."

Where is the pain here? A man of faith like a paladin, who was in heaven, who knows for certain that his loved ones await him back in Paradise. It makes no sense for him to get upset over choosing to return to this plane.


However, there is an interesting plot in why he might have returned. Perhaps because of his untimely death something terrible befell a family member or close friend. They fell to Darkness and have been trapped in the Nine Hells. Now that he is returned to life, the hero seeks to redeem and save this person they could not save before.

But not by turning evil themselves most likely. A man who knows the exact nature of the Heaven that awaits him is hard to shove from his path

[NecroDancer]

For reference

Raised Paladin: paladin who was brought back from the dead.

Other Paladin: the paladin in your group.


Perhaps have the raised paladin become a neutral oathbreaker who is now jaded.

He wants to be left alone but also wants to make sure that the other paladin doesn't make the mistake of giving away his life for the greater good.

So the raised paladin gives the other paladin his holy avenger saying that "it will do more good in your hands/maybe it will increase your chances of survival unlike mine".

The raised paladin is now a cynical oathbreaker who still wants peace and justice but knows that it will never happen but still is hoping to do some good by giving weapons/advice to the other paladin.

[Beelzebubba]

So many cynics in this board.

THE PC DID SOME OF THE BEST DAMN ROLEPLAY OF A PALADIN I'VE EVER HEARD OF.

REWARD IT!!!!11 :smallbiggrin:

The raised Paladin comes back with enhanced healing abilities, takes an oath of pacifism and poverty, and goes on to become a roaming holy man that heals the sick. With his great charisma and devotion, he becomes a saint.

He bequeaths the sword to the character because "I don't need this any more, my tasks of that sort are done. You have been proven worthy of such power. Use it well my son."

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps have the raised paladin become a neutral oathbreaker who is now jaded.


Cannot exist. Oathbreakers are evil, and pure scum.


If you meant it as "a paladin who abandonned his oath", then it's the same problem as every time propose this: why would someone who went to Heaven or a similarly incredibly enjoyable place where his Goodness was rewarded become jaded?

[Galadhrim]

I think there is one large cognitive misstep with the logic behind tge hero turning evil or holding a grudge.

The story of him turning because of all his loved ones being dead doesn't make sense. It works for a transported thru time story, but that isn't this.

"All my loved ones are dead... Just like I was... And are in the eternal bliss of the heavens... Like i was..."

Where is the pain here? A man of faith like a paladin, who was in heaven, who knows for certain that his loved ones await him back in Paradise. It makes no sense for him to get upset over choosing to return to this .

But not by turning evil themselves most likely. A man who knows the exact nature of the Heaven that awaits him is hard to shove from his path

This.

The resurrected paladin has been in the afterlife and chose to come back. If everyone he loves is dead, then he already knew it. The fact that he would then become so jaded by that fact that he drops his beliefs in a God that he not only followed unto death but then spent an afterlife with doesn't make any sense.

[Sitri]

That character is behind for a bit, perhaps until they complete a new quest of similar scale. The risen warrior might give something as a token of gratitude, but nothing on par with what was WILLINGLY GIVEN AWAY. There are different costs for being selfless and selfish. Likewise they can have their own benefits in different circumstances; namely being seen as being selfless can lead to other trusting or wanting to share more with you knowing there will be reciprocation. In my opinion, the benefit for being altruistic should never be a material gain on par with what you just gave up, unless the setup was a test of character to begin with.

But different costs make for interesting games. I have played games where DMs effectively wash away all my decisions because he has a place in mind he thinks players should be in terms of story or mechanics; those games suck. My favorite games all have real consequences for my decisions. No training wheels thank you.

[Yagyujubei]

thinking realistically, the "ancient hero" must have live a truly righteous life in order to gain his own holy avenger and so probably has a very strong sense of justice and morals. Therefor it seems to me that upon being resurrected by this paladin after being killed he certainly would recognize that he owes the guy a life debt and would travel with him to aid and protect him for some amount of time if not forever.

giving a player an entire new NPC to control kinda busts up action economy and would be dangerously close to game breaking if not dealt with correctly, but thats what I think would actually happen if this type of thing played out.

would also give you a way to keep the story going with a new plot hook. hero goes with them to defeat the BBG that they were gearing up to challenge but upon meeting him tells them he knows of this being and knows that its a high ranking general in the army of some truly epic evil. then everyone goes to fight azmodeus amirite?

[Vorpalchicken]

We have no way of knowing the nature of the afterlife in D&D. Who is to say that someone there has any knowledge of earthly (Faerunly?) events. Why do they have to be sitting there playing checkers and watching mortals masturbate? The afterlife could be a simple feeling of peace. After all, when you resurrect a player PC, they don't come back with omniscience covering the period that they were dead.

[BurgerBeast]

Cannot exist. Oathbreakers are evil, and pure scum.


If you meant it as "a paladin who abandonned his oath", then it's the same problem as every time propose this: why would someone who went to Heaven or a similarly incredibly enjoyable place where his Goodness was rewarded become jaded?


This.

The resurrected paladin has been in the afterlife and chose to come back. If everyone he loves is dead, then he already knew it. The fact that he would then become so jaded by that fact that he drops his beliefs in a God that he not only followed unto death but then spent an afterlife with doesn't make any sense.

Maybe he's jaded because someone he loves went to Hell. So, the time he's spent in a paradise was spent not knowing where the loved one is, or knowing the loved one was burned and tortured for all of that time.

[furby076]

I have a paladin, and i am dying for a holy avenger. If my character did this (he wont), then i think some o f the ideas given are great

1. Resurrected paladin is a master armor smith and makes him black dragon full plate +3
2. Celestials will come to the paladins aid if he is about to get knocked out. Dont tell him until it happens. They are recurring
3. Resurrected paladin helps the group out periodically. Maybe during the final battle he leads the army that distracts the bbeg, while the party does their thing
4. +cha and +cha max, maybe also do +str or give additional d8 radiant dmg on any attack or spell.

the above 4, would make me happy for giving up an HA and all my treasure

[furby076]

well, not the gods specifically. Good Itself created the Holy Avenger. Cast the original from the Positive Elemental Plane to the Prime Material, Where the first paladin took up the blade and was empowered in their will to stop the onslaught of Evil upon the paladin's realm.

All Avengers are patterned after the First Avenger and empowered by it, and through each avenger, can the First Avenger empower a new generation of blade, if the bearer of the blade is Deemed worthy
Wheee is this lore from?

[Saeviomage]

As a reward for bringing back the ancient hero, the gods offer the paladin...

the chance to stop being a hero and live a long, peaceful life without strife, with the revived hero stepping into his place.

a rewind of his tragic backstory, meaning he never takes up the sword in the first place. The character retires and some other hero was always there instead.

a guaranteed place in his god's afterlife for any creature of his choosing.

Secretly give him the 'blessed' trait, a behind-the-screen thing which means that if you can think of a way that random chance might work in his favour, it does. No magic sword, just consistent good luck in all story elements for the rest of the game. Key figures turn out to be old buddies, monsters happen to be off having a wizz when the character's attack, if a plan needs a specific item, it happens to be nearby etc etc.

[downlobot]

I haven't read through the thread, so I'm sorry if this has been brought up before.

The big damn hero has been dead for, what, a century or more? How has the world changed? I saw a few people mention the idea that the big damn hero could be a recurring helpful npc, but what if he were disillusioned instead? 'I thought the world would have been a better place after all I did, after all my companions did when we were alive. ' So that big damn hero maybe becomes a cynic - you brought him back to life, now can you redeem him to what he was?

Just a thought.

[Hrdven]

You do not need to over-reward the player for this action. He role played well, but he did it for his own enjoyment and not to get a better items and abilities. If you give him too much, then you will encourage the players to rp only for the sake of getting a reward. This would spoil the experience, imho.

In previous editions similar actions would have opened the door to a prestige class, but unfortunately these do not exist anymore in 5e. Giving him new abilities without the framework of a prestige clasd would very likely unbalance things in the long term. I would give him a better sword and some material reward for now, and an inspiration dice.

[Hrdven]

If you really want to give him a reward, another option is to create a new Improved Find Steed spell, and allow him to summon a young dragon as steed. That's quite paladineous.

[90sMusic]

I would think the fallen hero would have an existential crisis.

He believed he was some great champion of the light and destined for awesomeness and legendary status, then he dies in a battle. Everyone he has ever known or cared about has long since been dead. The other members of his adventuring party or band of brothers or whatever are all dead. His order that he belonged to could have gone out of existence since then as well. Maybe none of the common folk even remember who this guy is thus they don't appreciate the sacrifices he made in his life coupled with the realization that no matter how much evil you go out and try to seek and destroy it will always just be replaced by more evil and think that maybe the entire endeavor is an exercise in futility.

I'd have him do some soul searching to find out what his place is in this new world, then probably have him ultimately decide the most "good" he can do is not to go off and fight monsters anymore, but instead to rebuild his order that ceased to exist over however many years it's been since his death.

Then the paladin player gets the weapon passed on to him, gets some satisfying story and RP, and potentially an additional reward if he decides to become a co-founding member of the order perhaps the paladin can teach him a spell he doesn't know that he might find useful. Maybe this ancient hero knows a few tricks that have been lost over time like a better version of the Find Steed spell that can summon a slightly more powerful mount. Maybe a unicorn instead of a standard warhorse. Who knows.

[Unoriginal]

We have no way of knowing the nature of the afterlife in D&D.

Actually, plenty of ways. Like all the magic that allows you to contact or go to another plane.

[StorytellerHero]

Holy Avengers are not Unique, so here's one possible solution that might be the most fun for all.

The Hero would not relinquish his own sword since it was entrusted to him, however the Hero can instruct the paladin PC on how to make the same journey that earned the Hero his own Holy Avenger.

Make it into an adventure.

[Ralanr]

I'm probably too late in the discussion, but why not just make his sword or have him obtain a different holy sword? Like that "Defender" sword or the sunbeam saber?

[Positiveimpact3]

The knight comes to life and realizes what has happened, he takes the sword, kneels, and swears fealty to the paladin for the rest of his days (or until the life debt is repayed). Now the paladin has a badass knight follower loyal to him - a pretty unique reward fitting for a noble paladin giving it a power bump, the ability to use/see the sword in action (by proxy), and also doesn't undermine the paladin's sacrifice.

If i were the paladin it would not feel good if my options were 1. Get the avenger 2. Spend all my money and get the avenger.

[Malachite]

A month on, I'm sure you've made the decision and probably played past it by now, but here's my perspective on it anyway in case anyone out there has a similar situation. :smallbiggrin:

As the kind of person who would enjoy playing a paladin like this, I can absolutely agree with the other people in this thread who said that making the resurrected paladin fall would be a terrible idea. It makes no sense. People like that *know* that evil will keep rising, they *know* that everyone dies in the end, and this particular one *knows*, totally and utterly, what awats him for pushing through. He's made that choice already, and nothing has changed which would lead him to fall away from his path. Added to how little sense it makes, I agree that it would come across as telling him he shouldn't have bothered.

To me, the best suggestions are the doubled aura ranges (perhaps improve effectiveness?) and/or the Charisma bump - they let him support the team more, which is likely to appeal most to him as someone who's playing up the heroism for all it's worth. I would absolutely love it. I'd suggest you keep "the Paladin's sword suddenly flares to life as a Holy Avenger" for the climactic battle *only if necessary*. If they don't need it, they don't need it. If they do, it makes an awesome call-back to a previous event. Build it up over a couple of rounds if you can, too - a great example was the awakening of Mythcarver in Critical Role at a key moment following a few rounds of being told that the blade was beginning to hum and vibrate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Sb53wvbKI&feature=youtu.be&t=02h036m015s - language warning for those who it'll affect).

All the best, and hopefully whatever you decided will be massively satisfying for your paladin player - it has the potential to be a moment they remember for years afterward.

[MrStabby]

Whilst some of it has played out - some of the details remain.

I decided that the results should be good. No one falls and the action substantially makes the world a better place. I am happy for players to get the consequences of their mistakes - overestimating an enemy, murdering strangers and so on. But when they do something perfectly the PCs deserve to have it work. This was trying to honour the player's ideals and to make the world better and they did it perfectly.

The PC knows they have a blessing (but the discovery of the detail is slow as I am still trying to pin it down), they have seen the greater respect that they have inspired in the population and they have taken a place in the history of the world. He is now a conduit for power between his god and others, acting as a warlock patron for some low level warlocks.