Homebrewed spell: 2nd level, gives opponents Disadvantage if they fail Con save

[johnbragg]

I'm running Phandelver, and we're new to 5th edition. The Evil Mage they give has hold person as a second level spell, and I try to avoid save-or-die type spells. (Especially with 9 year old players.) So I pulled a homebrew out of my butt, made up a second-level mass-debuff spell that created a cloud that, if you failed your Constitution save, gave you Disadvantage on attacks for the rest of the fight.

Is that a reasonable 2nd level spell effect in 5th edition? Too much? Not enough? It's a lot less powerful than stinking cloud, which is third level. I'm just not seeing a lot of mass-debuff spells at all. IS that not a thing in 5th edition?

Should I let the PC wizard put it in her spellbook, since they've looted the Evil Mage's chamber?

[Human Paragon 3]

This spell seems completely reasonable to me. It's a little worse than Stinking Cloud (lvl 3). Especially since it only applies to attacks, not saves or ability checks.

I would like to point out, just in case it hasn't occurred to you, that this spell does destroy rogues' sneak attack, since they cannot gain advantage on attacks when under its effects. They can still gain it from attacking enemies who are near allies, but it is a significantly worse problem for them compared to any other class.

[Foxhound438]

a second level spell that causes disad on attacks (basically the poisoned condition) should definitely allow repeated saves at the end of a turn if it hits multiple targets.

Area also has a big role in spell power- if it's like a 10' radius 2nd level would be fine, but something closer to 20 would be edging on 3rd level power.

Lastly, it definitely has to be concentration.


Anyways, if you do include it, you probably should let the party wizard use it as well.

[Tygros]

Seems ok, I'd test it with a save at the end of each turn. How big should the cloud be?

[SharkForce]

i'd say disadvantage for the rest of the fight is a bit much. let them make a save every round.

also, i think you're worrying a bit too much about hold person. you get a new save every round, so it should be possible to get out of it before too long. additionally, it uses up the caster's concentration, so you can break the person out (possibly before it does anything at all) by attacking the wizard, and it means the wizard won't be using other concentration spells.

but, from the sound of things, you've already put it in, so too late for that. my feeling is that your spell is a bit overtuned... but now that you've used it, it feels a bit cheap to not allow it to the party at all. i'd just tell them you goofed, no harm done since they won anyways apparently, add the save every round and let the party wizard have it (as long as it doesn't have anything else ridiculous in it like massive area or range). if it turns out that the spell is really bad, you can buff it later, but it sounds fairly strong as a level 2 spell to me.

[johnbragg]

This spell seems completely reasonable to me. It's a little worse than Stinking Cloud (lvl 3). Especially since it only applies to attacks, not saves or ability checks.

I would like to point out, just in case it hasn't occurred to you, that this spell does destroy rogues' sneak attack, since they cannot gain advantage on attacks when under its effects. They can still gain it from attacking enemies who are near allies, but it is a significantly worse problem for them compared to any other class.

Rogue failed the save, made some sneak attacks, I ruled that the advantage from flanking the target counteracted the disadvantage from the spell, and the rogue rolled the attack straight and added the bonus die. This may not be how sneak attack works in 5th, I know. Shrug.


a second level spell that causes disad on attacks (basically the poisoned condition) should definitely allow repeated saves at the end of a turn if it hits multiple targets.

Right. I quickly looked up the poisoned condition, and that seemed like a very reasonable debuff to hit the whole party with, rather than hold person on one PC followed by an immediate kill by one of the mooks. (Not fun).


Area also has a big role in spell power- if it's like a 10' radius 2nd level would be fine, but something closer to 20 would be edging on 3rd level power.

Hmm. Stinking Cloud has 20' radius, and doesn't just give disadvantage, you just lose your action completely.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that a(n) (apparently) much more powerful spell with the same area is 3rd level. (My approach is to take the details of Stinking Cloud and just swap out the effects, disadvantage instead of lose-your-turn.)


Lastly, it definitely has to be concentration.

Hmm. Not just sort of a fireball-of-poison-gas? ALthough I guess by that logic the condition would last until magically cured, not just for the duration of the fight. But Stinking Cloud is duration: concentration, so maybe Poison Cloud should be, too.


Anyways, if you do include it, you probably should let the party wizard use it as well.

Oh, I already hit the party with it last session. Evil MAge's spellbook is now party loot. I'm just working out the details of the spell now, and confirming that I don't have to retcon something.

EDIT: I'll tell the PCs that they should have gotten a new save every round, based on comparable spells.
Also that concentration is a much bigger deal for wizards than it was in 3rd edition.

[Silfazaris]

Make them able to repeat the Cons save at the end of each of their turns and it's reasonable (at least from my point of view)

[Strill]

I'm running Phandelver, and we're new to 5th edition. The Evil Mage they give has hold person as a second level spell, and I try to avoid save-or-die type spells. (Especially with 9 year old players.) So I pulled a homebrew out of my butt, made up a second-level mass-debuff spell that created a cloud that, if you failed your Constitution save, gave you Disadvantage on attacks for the rest of the fight.

Is that a reasonable 2nd level spell effect in 5th edition? Too much? Not enough? It's a lot less powerful than stinking cloud, which is third level. I'm just not seeing a lot of mass-debuff spells at all. IS that not a thing in 5th edition?

Should I let the PC wizard put it in her spellbook, since they've looted the Evil Mage's chamber?

Sounds worse than the 2nd-level spell Web, which not only gives you disadvantage, but locks you in place, forces you to spend your turn to even try to escape, creates difficult terrain, and can possibly trap you again if you can't make it out in one turn.

[Ninja_Prawn]

should definitely allow repeated saves at the end of a turn if it hits multiple targets.

Lastly, it definitely has to be concentration.

you probably should let the party wizard use it as well.

I agree with all three of these from a stylistic perspective. But I'm not convinced that 2nd level is justified for it with these changes. You'd end up with something like...


Jim's Unpleasant Gas
2nd-level(?) conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a rotten egg)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You create a blast of foul-smelling gas in a 20-foot radius around a point you can see within range. Any creature within that area must make a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for the duration.
A creature affected by this spell can make another saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a success.

To me, that looks like a 1st-level spell. Especially given how many things are immune to poison. Maybe if you make the cloud persistent?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Rogue failed the save, made some sneak attacks, I ruled that the advantage from flanking the target counteracted the disadvantage from the spell, and the rogue rolled the attack straight and added the bonus die. This may not be how sneak attack works in 5th, I know. Shrug.
You're right that disadvantage and advantage negate. Sneak attack in 5 E requires advantage (that's negated) OR that an ally is threatening the target in melee. So, don't worry, if you're getting flanking, you're meeting the second requirement.



Right. I quickly looked up the poisoned condition, and that seemed like a very reasonable debuff to hit the whole party with, rather than hold person on one PC followed by an immediate kill by one of the mooks. (Not fun). mm. Stinking Cloud has 20' radius, and doesn't just give disadvantage, you just lose your action completely. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that a(n) (apparently) much more powerful spell with the same area is 3rd level. (My approach is to take the details of Stinking Cloud and just swap out the effects, disadvantage instead of lose-your-turn.) Hmm. Not just sort of a fireball-of-poison-gas? ALthough I guess by that logic the condition would last until magically cured, not just for the duration of the fight. But Stinking Cloud is duration: concentration, so maybe Poison Cloud should be, too.Oh, I already hit the party with it last session. Evil MAge's spellbook is now party loot. I'm just working out the details of the spell now, and confirming that I don't have to retcon something.
EDIT: I'll tell the PCs that they should have gotten a new save every round, based on comparable spells.
Also that concentration is a much bigger deal for wizards than it was in 3rd edition.

For future reference, consider Web. It's 2nd level and it does almost exactly what you want (Concentration, party members can try to save each round, disadvantage on attack rolls) except with the addition that they can't move until they make their save and allows a Strength saving throw each round as an action. It even has a 20' area like your proposed spell. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[SharkForce]

Sounds worse than the 2nd-level spell Web, which not only gives you disadvantage, but locks you in place, forces you to spend your turn to even try to escape, creates difficult terrain, and can possibly trap you again if you can't make it out in one turn.

web creates a zone, which means you can't just walk in and stab them in the face without risking being caught yourself (or at least, not under normal circumstances). this allows you to just walk in and start killing your targets, and they can't get away by just moving out of the zone.

[Strill]

web creates a zone, which means you can't just walk in and stab them in the face without risking being caught yourself (or at least, not under normal circumstances). this allows you to just walk in and start killing your targets, and they can't get away by just moving out of the zone.

You can walk up and attack them if they're at the border of the web. Otherwise you can hit them with a ranged attack.

The best way to use Web, however, is to web most of the enemies, focus down the enemies who aren't webbed, and then deal with the trickle of enemies as they come out of the web one by one.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

web creates a zone, which means you can't just walk in and stab them in the face without risking being caught yourself (or at least, not under normal circumstances). this allows you to just walk in and start killing your targets, and they can't get away by just moving out of the zone.

They can't get away without just moving out of the zone of web without making a saving throw first, though, and if making a saving throw ends the proposed substitute spell's effect that's no worse. It may even be better as Web saving throws (after the first) take actions.

You are right about engaging people in melee combat, though.

[SharkForce]

They can't get away without just moving out of the zone of web without making a saving throw first, though, and if making a saving throw ends the proposed substitute spell's effect that's no worse. It may even be better as Web saving throws (after the first) take actions.

You are right about engaging people in melee combat, though.

sure they can. they still have their action, which means they can (for example) use a teleportation spell or ability to get out. they can get knocked out of it by a variety of effects. they can (oddly enough) get pulled out of it by others with no difficulty (restrained reduces movement to zero, but does not actually prevent other things from moving you). depending on the nature of the supports, it may also be possible to destroy those, which can end the web spell (though obviously that won't work in every situation; a stone wall isn't going to be easy for something like a goblin to break, and if the web is layered across the ground even a strong creature won't be able to easily escape).

plus anything that can become insubstantial in some way or another can just ignore it entirely.

there's also the potential for web to end early as a result of fire. all it takes is one person with a torch, and your web spell is now a 2d4 fire damage spell that costs concentration.

there's also the fact that web is frankly probably one of the absolute strongest level 2 spells, and much like fireball and lightning bolt stand out in terms of damage spells, web kinda stands out in many ways as a control spell, probably because it is much more iconic than, say... levitate. like it or not, 5e seems to have left a bit of extra power in spells that they considered to be more iconic than others, and web certainly benefitted from that.

[Strill]

sure they can. they still have their action, which means they can (for example) use a teleportation spell or ability to get out. they can get knocked out of it by a variety of effects. they can (oddly enough) get pulled out of it by others with no difficulty (restrained reduces movement to zero, but does not actually prevent other things from moving you). depending on the nature of the supports, it may also be possible to destroy those, which can end the web spell (though obviously that won't work in every situation; a stone wall isn't going to be easy for something like a goblin to break, and if the web is layered across the ground even a strong creature won't be able to easily escape).

plus anything that can become insubstantial in some way or another can just ignore it entirely.

there's also the potential for web to end early as a result of fire. all it takes is one person with a torch, and your web spell is now a 2d4 fire damage spell that costs concentration.

there's also the fact that web is frankly probably one of the absolute strongest level 2 spells, and much like fireball and lightning bolt stand out in terms of damage spells, web kinda stands out in many ways as a control spell, probably because it is much more iconic than, say... levitate. like it or not, 5e seems to have left a bit of extra power in spells that they considered to be more iconic than others, and web certainly benefitted from that.

If the enemy is casting teleportation spells, or using their actions to break the web, burn the web, or pull allies out of the web, then it's already served its purpose many times over, because they're not using those spells and actions to stop the party.

[SharkForce]

If the enemy is casting teleportation spells, or using their actions to break the web, burn the web, or pull allies out of the web, then it's already served its purpose many times over, because they're not using those spells and actions to stop the party.

well, pulling people out is presumably equivalent to a grapple, and wouldn't cost a full turn, just one attack. burning the web might not even take more than an object interaction, so not exactly a lot of value there either. and some teleports don't take a full turn either... a warrior enemy that can misty step, for example, is giving up almost nothing.

point being, if you want out of a web, you have far more options to get out of the effect than with this new spell.

[Verisichilli2de]

I think you're looking for something more like a toned down version of Slow, which is a 3rd level AOE debuff, than Web. I would probably go with something like

Stinker's Noxious Wind
2rd-Level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You release a volume of foul smelling gas on up to four creatures of your choice in a 20-foot cube within range, Each target must succeed on a CON saving throw or be affected by this spell for the duration. An affected target has disadvantage on attack rolls. A creature affected by this spell makes another CON saving throw at the end of its turn. On a successful save, the effect ends for it.

Still feels a bit weak for second level but I don't know what I'd add to it to improve it

[jaappleton]

Just an FYI...

Ray of Sickness is a 1st level spell. It deals damage, and invokes a save. If they fail the save, the enemy suffers from the Poisoned condition.

Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

Just something to think about.