Retiering the Classes: Death Master, Shaman, Shugenja, Sorcerer, and Wu Jen

[eggynack]

Here's a bunch of arbitrary full casters. As one would expect, they're really strong and such, though not on the level of a wizard or cleric. Pretty straightforward stuff. Here's the classes.

Death Master (DCS, 29): For the most part, this is like a core wizard with a shorter list. You do get animate dead as a second level spell, some necromancy themed abilities, and the occasional cleric spell, but especially mediocre wizard sums it up pretty well.

Shaman (OA, 22): This class is like a weird combination cleric and druid, with domains and spontaneous cure/inflict from the former, the animal companion from the latter, and a list that pulls some of its theming from both. The list is a lot shorter though.

Shugenja (CD, 10): This one is a spontaneous divine caster off of a pretty reasonable list that's partially defined by a choice of elemental theming. Not much to it beyond that, all things considered.

Sorcerer: It's a wizard. But, like, spontaneous. Except worse for some reason.

Wu Jen (CArc, 14): You get prepared arcane casting off of a good, though not on the level of something like a wizard, list. The class features on this one are pretty decent too, including some minor free metamagic.





What are the tiers?

The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System). A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a swordsage. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

Tier four: Here we're in ranger/barbarian territory (though the ranger should be considered largely absent of ACF's and stuff to hit this tier, as will be talked about later). Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of monks, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.



The Threads

Tier System Home Base (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515845-Retiering-the-Classes-Home-Base&p=21722272#post21722272)


The Fixed List Casters: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515849-Retiering-the-Classes-Beguiler-Dread-Necromancer-and-Warmage&p=21722395#post21722395)


The Obvious Tier One Classes: Archivist, Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Sha'ir, and Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516137-Retiering-the-Classes-Archivist-Artificer-Cleric-Druid-Sha-ir-and-Wizard&p=21731809#post21731809)


The Mundane Beat Sticks (part one): Barbarian, Fighter, Samurai (CW), and Samurai (OA) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516602-Retiering-the-Classes-Barbarian-Fighter-Samurai-(CW)-and-Samurai-(OA)&p=21747927#post21747927)


The Roguelikes: Ninja, Rogue, and Scout (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517091-Retiering-the-Classes-Ninja-Rogue-and-Scout)


The Pseudo-Druids: Spirit Shaman, Spontaneous Druid, Urban Druid, and Wild Shape Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517370-Retiering-the-Classes-Spirit-Shaman-Spontaneous-Druid-Urban-Druid-and-WS-Ranger&p=21774657#post21774657)


The Jacks of All Trades: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517967-Retiering-the-Classes-Bard-Factotum-and-Jester&p=21794327#post21794327)


The Tome of Battlers: Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518495-Retiering-the-Classes-Crusader-Swordsage-and-Warblade&p=21815193#post21815193)


The NPCs: Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Magewright, and Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519155-Retiering-the-Classes-Adept-Aristocrat-Commoner-Expert-Magewright-and-Warrior&p=21838412)


The Vaguely Supernatural Melee Folk: Battle Dancer, Monk, Mountebank, and Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519701-Retiering-the-Classes-Battle-Dancer-Monk-Mountebank-and-Soulknife)


The Miscellaneous Full Casters: Death Master, Shaman, Shugenja, Sorcerer, and Wu Jen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520291-Retiering-the-Classes-Death-Master-Shugenja-Sorcerer-Wu-Jen&p=21878654#post21878654)


The Wacky Magicists: Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster, Truenamer, and Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520903-Retiering-the-Classes-Binder-Dragonfire-Adept-Shadowcaster-Truenamer-Warlock&p=21898782#post21898782)


The Rankings
Death Master: Tier two

Shaman: Tier one

Shugenja: Tier three

Sorcerer: Tier two

Wu Jen: Tier one

And here's a link to the spreadsheet. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hj9_9PQg6tXACUWZY_Egm2R9Gtvg9nXRTPfGYnAfh9w/edit)

[Troacctid]

I think Death Master and Wu Jen are both 1.5s. They are almost on the level of the Wizard, but they're also clearly worse overall.

(EDIT: You know what, I'm moving Death Master up to a 1. It's essentially a core-only specialist wizard. Is a core-only specialist wizard still T1? I think so. Especially with the skeletal minion shoring up the early levels that are often problematic for wizards. So, T1. Wu Jen, eh, I don't like it as much.)

Sorcerer is an easy 2.

Shugenja is about on the same level as the Warmage, IMO. It has some good spells on its list, but it also has limited options, plus some very annoying restrictions. I'll say 3. Would probably be good enough for 2.5 if it didn't tie your hands on half your known spells the way it does.

[Cosi]

Death Master and Wu Jen both seem to be basically a random selection of Wizard spells. That's obviously worse than an actual Wizard (by virtue of not getting some spells), and probably substantially so if you compare to a non-core Wizard that gets all the random spells from Spell Compendium or Complete Arcane or whatever. Still, there's a lot of daylight between the Wizard and bad. Probably works out to be about as good as the Wizard in most cases, because you probably aren't learning enough spells to overrun the spells you do get.

Sorcerer is like a Beguiler, but instead of getting a bunch of random spells, you get to pick a much smaller number of spells. Probably roughly as good.

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure on the shugenja and wu jen (I'ma do some list checking on those later), but sorcerer and death master still seem tier two to me. First is obvious, so not especially worth talking about. Death master, it just loses so much. It's significantly worse than a core wizard, even one that's made pretty bad school banning decisions. Early animate dead is great, but you're doing just alright in a core only environment and actively bad in a non-core environment, and the whole setup seems tier two to me. Could see going up to 1.5, but 1 seems out of the question to me, and 2 feels like the right place to start.

[Taveena]

Shugenja's 'elemental' lists tend to include both literal and figurative versions of the abilities. There are plenty of really potent spells on there, and the Order spells can certainly help fill in gaps. They don't have as many 'utterly break the setting' spells as a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, but they have a TON of strong wizard and cleric classic spells on their list like Teleport, Wall of Stone, Righteous Might, and Antimagic Field.

[DEMON]

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

It's complicated.

Create Water is on the Water list, along pretty much everything healing-related, while the Fire list has stuff like Confusion, Chain Lightning and Power Word Blind, but no Fireball. Fireball, however, is an order spell for the Order of the Consuming Flame.

[lord_khaine]

I vote T2 for all of them.

They either have limited access to the full spell list, or full access to a limited spell list. That is more or less the definition of a tier 2 class.

Edit.
Changed my mind on the Shugenja, downgrading it to T3

[Florian]

I've never known enough about the Shugenja to make a reasonable assessment. My guess is that how good it is depends on how strictly it holds to the whole "elemental spells" thing. If that means fireball and create water, it's bad. If it means planar binding for some reason, it's pretty good.

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

[lord_khaine]

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

There are is blood magicians there, who i recall are sorcerers.
But yeah, more or less the only caster class there meant for players by default.

[Rhyltran]

Death Master - Tier 2 - This class is clearly worse than a wizard but definitely above warmage and the other tier 3 casters.

Wu Jen - Tier 1.5 - Similar spells as wizard but not as great of a selection. Even so they have some nice spells: Giant size, lightning blade, body outside body, metal skin, transcend mortality, magnetism, and much more. So not quite a wizard but definitely closer to it than some of the other tier 2's.

Sorcerer - Tier 1.5 - I'm going to say it. I think Sorcerer is in between tier 1 and tier 2. While this is controversial and they do get a smaller list than the wizard we are considering at least "some optimization" a base sorcerer, a semi optimized, and optimized are all being considered and based on this there's so many different ways to add spells to your list as well as items that the sorcerer can make up for many of it's failings. Not only this but the sorcerer has the advantage of spontaneous spell casting on top of all that.

Shugenja - Tier 3 - About on par with war-mage so I'm going to be voting Tier 3 here. There's not much to say here as this is probably the least controversial choice.

[Gemini476]

Keep in mind that classes like the Shugenja are ported from a) a different system (L5R) and b) based on a specific setting (Rokugan). There, they´re the only caster class.

Eh, the Wu Jen has a fair bit in common with the 1E Oriental Adventures Wu Jen. The Shugenja and Shukenja are a bit more different, IIRC, but I'm not sure how strong the mechanical connections to Legend of the Five Rings is.

EDIT: The 1E Wu Jen being native to Rokugan, which of course is just on the opposite side of the main continent in The Forgotten Realms and thus you could technically travel straight from Wa to Waterdeep without needing to resort to any kid of magic.

[Florian]

Eh, the Wu Jen has a fair bit in common with the 1E Oriental Adventures Wu Jen. The Shugenja and Shukenja are a bit more different, IIRC, but I'm not sure how strong the mechanical connections to Legend of the Five Rings is.

EDIT: The 1E Wu Jen being native to Rokugan, which of course is just on the opposite side of the main continent in The Forgotten Realms and thus you could technically travel straight from Wa to Waterdeep without needing to resort to any kid of magic.

You´re mixing up the Oriental Adventures settings. D20 OA uses the L5R Rokugan license, as WotC held that at the time.

[Gemini476]

You´re mixing up the Oriental Adventures settings. D20 OA uses the L5R Rokugan license, as WotC held that at the time.

D'oh, right. Kara-Tur, the 1E OA setting is Kara-Tur. Part of the Forgotten Realms, much like Maztica and whatever the Arabian Adventures setting was called.

[Florian]

D'oh, right. Kara-Tur, the 1E OA setting is Kara-Tur. Part of the Forgotten Realms, much like Maztica and whatever the Arabian Adventures setting was called.

Jepp and Al´Qadim/Zakhara. But that´s also why Shugenja seem to be weak and odd when reviewed and tiered outside the setting. There, Bloodspeakers/Sorcerers are NPC-only and supposed to have more raw power than a Shugenja. The aforementioned fireball is a good example on what thoughts went into the design of the class, as only the right order/school teaches the secret to certain spells.

[Florian]

I don't understand why that would get you any credit in a game where people are totally able to play other casters if they want to.

In a L5R game, you don´t. There´re only 4 playable PC classes, with supporting PrC for specialization (and those are faction-based), everything else is NPC stuff. It´s very strict on this: Setting Rules beat Mechanics on this one.

Edit: To prevent nitpicking: You´re allowed to mc with some of the core classes, but only in certain combinations, and even equipment is restricted by setting rules.

[Cosi]

In a L5R game, you don´t. There´re only 4 playable PC classes, with supporting PrC for specialization (and those are faction-based), everything else is NPC stuff. It´s very strict on this: Setting Rules beat Mechanics on this one.

Edit: To prevent nitpicking: You´re allowed to mc with some of the core classes, but only in certain combinations, and even equipment is restricted by setting rules.

Sure, but I think we are specifically talking about the Shugenja that appears in Complete Divine and is presumably intended for general use.

[Florian]

Sure, but I think we are specifically talking about the Shugenja that appears in Complete Divine and is presumably intended for general use.

It´s more like they updated the old 3.0 rules and wanted to force people to buy the different complete books to have them all. You know, one asia-type class per book or something. Else, the revamp doesn´t make sense, compared to the power level and usual design features that were common at that time.

[remetagross]

So obviously Lord Drako is not trying to make a meaningful contribution to the thread, but he does raise a useful point. The difference between Tier One and Tier Two is essentially entirely down to what stuff you assume we're counting. The Wizard is Tier One because it can learn all the spells. But that costs a bunch of money, and if you were a Sorcerer you could just spend that money on a use-activated item of psychic reformation which would also allow you to learn all the spells. Similarly, the Beguiler could take any PrC that offers a Prestige Domain, buy an Eternal Wand of substitute domain, and run around casting any spell from a couple dozen domains. Going in the opposite direction, an Artificer that doesn't get to leverage crafting is Tier Two at best, and an Archivist or Erudite that is relatively limited in spell access is not particularly Tier One.

Basically, I don't think there is a distinction between Tier One and Tier Two that doesn't boil down to "these are the forms of optimization we choose to count".

This does seem a sound reasoning...now, the prerequisite of it is that the Wizard is tier 1 if it knows all the spells. Admittedly, this requires at least a modicum of optimisation. But as has been pointed out several times before, what if the Wizard only needs some more spells? If it does, given that achieving this requires less optimisation, it entails that it decreases the optimisation threshold that Sorcerers and Beguilers have access to to try and reach tier 1. I honestly have no idea about these questions. To sum it up:
1. If Wizards need to know all the spells to get to tier 1, they need an amount of optimisation A. If, with an amount of optimisation A, Sorcerers can get enough versatility to become as powerful as wizards, then they are in the same tier as wizards are. Since Wizards are tier 1, so must be Sorcerers.
2. If Wizards need to know, like, 50% of all the spells in the game (the best 50%) to get to tier 1, they require an amount of optimisation B, where B < A. If, within B optimisation, Sorcerers cannot get at least almost as useful as Wizards, them they are one tier lower. Since Wizards are still tier 1, Sorcerers end up tier 2.

I know I'm kinda beating a dead horse, but that issue of the minimal number of spells known to get to Tier 1 has been raised several times and has never found an answer, and since it seems relevant to answer it in this context, I support Cosi for raising it again.

[Bucky]

In practice a Wizard does not know all the spells. They must track down most of their spells in-game.

[Cosi]

This does seem a sound reasoning...now, the prerequisite of it is that the Wizard is tier 1 if it knows all the spells. Admittedly, this requires at least a modicum of optimisation. But as has been pointed out several times before, what if the Wizard only needs some more spells? If it does, given that achieving this requires less optimisation, it entails that it decreases the optimisation threshold that Sorcerers and Beguilers have access to to try and reach tier 1. I honestly have no idea about these questions.

Some notes:

First, the power of the Wizard v the Sorcerer isn't necessarily what matters here. What matters is the Sorcerer v whatever the weakest class in Tier One is. Beating the Wizard is sufficient, but not necessary, to be Tier One. If you instead beat the Psion (or Druid, or Artificer, or whatever the worst definitely Tier One class is), you are still Tier One.

Second, it's not just "the Wizard has to spend a bunch of resources to learn spells", but "classes optimize in different ways and with different resources". For example, the Druid cares very little about PrCs (as most of them are worse than just taking more Druid levels), so an analysis that excludes PrCs is necessarily going to make the Druid seem relatively stronger than one that includes them.

Similarly, Beguilers benefit more from PrCs because they really want Prestige Domains (or other PrC options that expand their list), but less from additional splats because they don't really care if there's a new random Druid spell that is sometimes worth casting.

If you do an analysis on "base classes only" or "everything except PrCs" or whatever, you necessarily warp rankings because classes do not employ the exact same optimization strategies and do not benefit to the same degree from the same sources.

Third, most of the analysis I've seen of what a minimal spell list Tier One Wizard looks like involves taking spells like planar binding and polymorph, which are pretty cheesy, and not really representative of the situation people are trying to model (Wizards who are spell constrained are not likely to take those spells).


Sorcerer can take multiples Divine Sorcery feat grant spells and domain granted power. I love it.

I see no indication that Divine Sorcery can be taken more than once. What's more, it can only be taken at the first Sorcerer level. Meaning that even if you could take multiples, it would require you to be a Human (or some other race that grants a bonus feat at first level, like a Strongheart Halfling) or be allowed to take Flaws. Using your race in this way locks you out of the Kobold cheese that represents some of the best Sorcerer options, and Flaws are an optional rule.

Giving access to the granted power is not unique. Prestige Domains give it as well, and do not have the one spell known per day limitation the feat does ("Each day, you can add one spell from the domain's spell list to your sorcerer spell list.").


No, Undead Battery is Sorcerer only.

Could someone with access to the book where Undead Battery appears confirm this?


I bealive Domain Acess is enough. It's divine.

I don't see anything to confirm this. For reference:


In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain.

In the absence of specific text to the contrary, it seems to me that we should use the default rule for Sorcerer spells to determine whether these spells are Arcane or Divine. Per the SRD:


A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

That would seem to me to indicate that these spells are Arcane rather than Divine.


But, Domain acess+ Imbue with spell ability = divine spell + Magic Domain.

Sure, but this does not seem any simpler than Prestige Domain + imbue with spell ability on a Beguiler.


Wrong, Greater Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spell know. Only Sorcerer can cast it.

The spell requires that you use it cast Sorcerer spells. It does not require that you personally are a Sorcerer, unless you wish to learn it as one of your spells gained on level up. If you just want to use a Knowstone or Runestave to cast it, you may do so freely (provided you make the appropriate UMD check).


I love itens dependency, multiples Hail of Stones love break everything.

Sure. That doesn't negate any previous domain shuffling on the Beguiler's part though. It's also not terribly relevant, as most situations are not character duels, but rather conflicts with specific enemies, who are unlikely to deploy heavily metamagic'd hail of stones to sunder items.


Hey, Rainbow Servant is not full casting, the table EXPLICT say that. No acess to level 9 spells.

Again, the text indicates that it is full casting, and text trumps table. You are free to provide a citation to the contrary if you disagree.

[Rhyltran]

Could someone with access to the book where Undead Battery appears confirm this?



Gladly it comes from the age of mortals book which I do have. Page 209 and it shows up in a side bar. Metamagic. You can drain negative energy from undead to power your spells.

Prerequisites:

Greater spell focus Necromancy, ability to use sorcery or mysticism, ability to cast 6th level necromany spells.

[Cosi]

Greater spell focus Necromancy, ability to use sorcery or mysticism, ability to cast 6th level necromany spells.

What does "sorcery or mysticism" mean? I assume that's the bit Drako is focusing on, but it's not clear to me that "using Sorcery" and "being a Sorcerer" are the same thing in this context.

[Rhyltran]

What does "sorcery or mysticism" mean? I assume that's the bit Drako is focusing on, but it's not clear to me that "using Sorcery" and "being a Sorcerer" are the same thing in this context.

Honestly I don't know myself. The book is very fluff heavy from what I re-call (haven't read it for awhile.) so I think he thinks it means "You have to be a sorcerer." when it is simply saying as long as you can cast sorcerer spells/arcane magic. I could be wrong but the text isn't clear.

[Elderand]

Honestly I don't know myself. The book is very fluff heavy from what I re-call (haven't read it for awhile.) so I think he thinks it means "You have to be a sorcerer." when it is simply saying as long as you can cast sorcerer spells/arcane magic. I could be wrong but the text isn't clear. That's word for word what it says.

If you know the setting at all, it's clear. You have to be a sorcerer or Mystic. It's not about the spell list, it's about the class.

[Rhyltran]

If you know the setting at all, it's clear. You have to be a sorcerer or Mystic. It's not about the spell list, it's about the class.

Alright, thank you. As mentioned, I just looked it up in the book I haven't read it in a long time.

[EdRed]

The feat is just using some DragonLance fluff rich speech. Sorcery in this particular instance likely means "unlicensed" wizards.
Lore wise, the creator of this feat is Dalamar, an Elf *Wizard* unless I'm very mistaken.

How does a wizard create a feat, for which he does not meet the requirements himself?

[DeAnno]

So, I haven't really participated in any of these threads, so I'm not going to vote or anything, but I know a fair bit about Sorcerers in play so I'm going to highlight some things.


The standard for inclusion into T1 for a Spontaneous caster in this list seems to me to be being superior or equal to the Spontaneous Druid. Spont-Dru has T3 and T5 abilities in Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is a spell level ahead of Sorcerer, but has a generally worse Spell List than Sorcerer.
Arcane and Greater Arcane Fusion are basically Sorcerer Class features that they get if CM is in play. The language of those spells is very restrictive, and I think it's an easy argument to make that nobody but an actual Sorcerer can get any use out of them. Arcane Fusion especially is usable for more than half the levels and can be quite strong even when you aren't just using it to jam True Strikes. One can argue it's the best combo of efficient/legit action economy booster in the entire game.
Also worth mentioning, for a feat a Kobold Sorc basically gets the spell level back that it's behind Spont Druid. Granted Sorcerers are feat poor, not everyone uses Web Enhancements, and not everyone wants to be a Kobold. But also remember, this isn't something dumb like Loredrake, this is a real thing worth remembering from a more legit source that can sanely be used in actual games.
It's an interesting argument that Beguiler is better than Sorcerer at the start of the game, and one I think can't be argued with from levels 1-5 at least. I think it's worth wondering if Sorcerers are similarly better than Spontaneous Druids at the end of the game, from levels 14-20 or so (probably excepting 15 and 17). At this point they start to have Greater AF (and native Arcane Spellsurge), perhaps critical mass of spells to choose from, Druid Wild Shape is starting to become more replaceable/less important, etc etc.
Fast Metamagic at 1 and Force Charged Energy at 5 are pretty nifty ACFs, enough so that the "Sorc has no class features" thing can be blunted a bit until the levels where they commonly prestige out.

[Elderand]

The feat is just using some DragonLance fluff rich speech. Sorcery in this particular instance likely means "unlicensed" wizards.
Lore wise, the creator of this feat is Dalamar, an Elf *Wizard* unless I'm very mistaken.

How does a wizard create a feat, for which he does not meet the requirements himself?

No, it's not. Sorcery is different from just being an unlicensed wizard. Sorcery is using magic without drawing magic via the moons.
When Dalamar created the feat, he wasn't a wizard, he was a sorcerer. Wizard type magic literraly went away and stopped working because the gods are ***** in dragonlance. he among others rediscovered the means to use primal magic by becoming a sorcerer.

[Rhyltran]

No, it's not. Sorcery is different from just being an unlicensed wizard. Sorcery is using magic without drawing magic via the moons.
When Dalamar created the feat, he wasn't a wizard, he was a sorcerer. Wizard type magic literraly went away and stopped working because the gods are ***** in dragonlance. he among others rediscovered the means to use primal magic by becoming a sorcerer.

What about things like beguilers, dread necromancers, and similar? What would they count as under the dragon lance setting? Probably not sorcerers given that they draw power from the moon? Sorry, I know very little about the dragonlance setting. I primarily play Eberron/Forgotten realms.

[Elderand]

What about things like beguilers, dread necromancers, and similar? What would they count as under the dragon lance setting? Probably not sorcerers given that they draw power from the moon? Sorry, I know very little about the dragonlance setting. I primarily play Eberron/Forgotten realms.

Those classes don't exist in dragonlance.
Really, it's that simple. Dragonlance is a very specific setting with very specific rules and fluff. If you wanted to include them, every spontaneous caster would count as using sorcery.

[Cosi]

Arcane and Greater Arcane Fusion are basically Sorcerer Class features that they get if CM is in play. The language of those spells is very restrictive, and I think it's an easy argument to make that nobody but an actual Sorcerer can get any use out of them.

I don't think that's clear. Do the rules ever spell out whether being a "Sorcerer Spell" is an inherent property of charm person (allowing the Beguiler to UMD arcane fusion for great justice), or a contingent property of knowing it as a Sorcerer? Drako's example doesn't seem compelling to me. It seems pretty clear that those listings mean "spells known as a Sorcerer" and "spells known as a Beguiler".


Arcane Fusion especially is usable for more than half the levels and can be quite strong even when you aren't just using it to jam True Strikes. One can argue it's the best combo of efficient/legit action economy booster in the entire game.

arcane fusion is good, no doubt. But it's still one specific spell that not every Sorcerer will take. If you're depending on getting this one spell from this one book to compete with the Wizard, that tells me you're probably worse than the Wizard most of the time.


Also worth mentioning, for a feat a Kobold Sorc basically gets the spell level back that it's behind Spont Druid. Granted Sorcerers are feat poor, not everyone uses Web Enhancements, and not everyone wants to be a Kobold. But also remember, this isn't something dumb like Loredrake, this is a real thing worth remembering from a more legit source that can sanely be used in actual games.

True, but it's pretty cheesy (yes, the net effect is small, but I except lots of people to freak out at a "free" level), and obscure.


I think it's worth wondering if Sorcerers are similarly better than Spontaneous Druids at the end of the game, from levels 14-20 or so (probably excepting 15 and 17). At this point they start to have Greater AF (and native Arcane Spellsurge), perhaps critical mass of spells to choose from, Druid Wild Shape is starting to become more replaceable/less important, etc etc.

First, I would place a fairly hefty discount factor on 15+ because it's not really clear what the game looks like at that point. Either you're playing a game where people can do (essentially) anything, and tiers break down, or you're using some gentleman's agreements which make it hard to predict class performance.

Second, I wouldn't discount Wild Shape at high levels. It's a polymorph type ability, and those are often quite power, though heavily dependent on rules interpretation. For example, Octopus form + Multi-Tasking grants three extra standard actions every round.


Fast Metamagic at 1 and Force Charged Energy at 5 are pretty nifty ACFs, enough so that the "Sorc has no class features" thing can be blunted a bit until the levels where they commonly prestige out.

Counting "sometimes, you aren't as hosed by the arbitrary hosing you got" as a class feature seems kind of weird. Force Charged Energy doesn't seem good to me. Turning half your damage to Force doesn't help you beat energy resistance at all. For example, a CL 10 fireball goes from dealing 10d6 - energy resistance to 5d6 - energy resistance + 5d6, which sums to 10d6 - energy resistance. Those numbers are the same. It helps versus energy immunity, but it's worse than Energy Substitution, and I very much doubt that doing half a blast is going to be your best play.


No, it's not. Sorcery is different from just being an unlicensed wizard. Sorcery is using magic without drawing magic via the moons.

Doesn't that mean it works for anyone outside Dragonlance? A Beguiler doesn't draw magic through moons in standard D&D any more than a Sorcerer does.

[Elderand]

Doesn't that mean it works for anyone outside Dragonlance? A Beguiler doesn't draw magic through moons in standard D&D any more than a Sorcerer does.

Depends, the problem is that the feat is insanely setting specific. A good compromise would be that the feat work for anyone able to cast spell spontaneously. (and only true spontaneous casting, not various way wizard can achieve spontaneous casting because the fluff differs a lot between the way a wizard can spontaneously cast and the way sorcerers or others do.)
It's a huge DM call wether or not the feat is allowed.

Especially since the feat is not an official one. Only the dragonlance campaign setting book is an official book, published by wizard of the coast. Every other book was licensed by wizard of the coast. Therefore the feat is no more official than Kingdom of Kalamar stuff or Dragon magazine stuff.

[eggynack]

Can we not make this into a lord drako thread? I get that the intentions are pure, and that the conversation might be interesting, but we can have this conversation without having it with a previously banned user, I think. It seems like a thing destined to lead to a bad place. And, as before, the vote won't get counted, so that's not an issue here.



The standard for inclusion into T1 for a Spontaneous caster in this list seems to me to be being superior or equal to the Spontaneous Druid. Spont-Dru has T3 and T5 abilities in Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is a spell level ahead of Sorcerer, but has a generally worse Spell List than Sorcerer.
Minimizing wild shape and the animal companion as just these vaguely independent tier three and tier five abilities is a bad move. They're core to the spontaneous druid's position.


Arcane and Greater Arcane Fusion are basically Sorcerer Class features that they get if CM is in play. The language of those spells is very restrictive, and I think it's an easy argument to make that nobody but an actual Sorcerer can get any use out of them. Arcane Fusion especially is usable for more than half the levels and can be quite strong even when you aren't just using it to jam True Strikes. One can argue it's the best combo of efficient/legit action economy booster in the entire game.
They're very good spells, but we're talking a pretty optimized environment here. A lot of evaluation is necessarily taking place where each class is just taking pretty to really good spells, rather than crazy spells and combo stuff.


Also worth mentioning, for a feat a Kobold Sorc basically gets the spell level back that it's behind Spont Druid. Granted Sorcerers are feat poor, not everyone uses Web Enhancements, and not everyone wants to be a Kobold. But also remember, this isn't something dumb like Loredrake, this is a real thing worth remembering from a more legit source that can sanely be used in actual games.
This, too, seems kinda up there. Agreed, not as much as even greater increases, but it's certainly up there, in my opinion. These things are worth taking into account. I just don't think they're necessarily central to the analysis.


It's an interesting argument that Beguiler is better than Sorcerer at the start of the game, and one I think can't be argued with from levels 1-5 at least. I think it's worth wondering if Sorcerers are similarly better than Spontaneous Druids at the end of the game, from levels 14-20 or so (probably excepting 15 and 17). At this point they start to have Greater AF (and native Arcane Spellsurge), perhaps critical mass of spells to choose from, Druid Wild Shape is starting to become more replaceable/less important, etc etc.
Not especially, I don't think. Level 18 the spontaneous druid can get shapechange. Before that, mostly yes, because druid 7th's are seemingly universally mediocre and 8th's aren't great either, though the druid might actually do well in really high op environments due to fey ring for a siabrie. Anyway, wild shape doesn't really diminish in value in the 14-20 range. 15 is the level where you naturally get dire tortoise. And, speaking of things you can have access to unnaturally and before that, aberration, dragon, and exalted forms grant a bunch of stuff that holds its value at this point in the game. Immunity to magic never stops being at least quite good, y'know?

[Kurald Galain]

I really don't get why somebody is voting tier 5 on the sorcerer. How does that even make sense? :smalleek:

Anyway, in my experience it's true in theory that the wizard knows all the spells, and can withdraw, prepare, and overcome anything. At least, at level 20, which is again theory since most campaigns play well below that. In practice, given a series of unexpected situations, a sorcerer with a well-picked spell list is better able to deal with these than a wizard, because in practice the wizard can't pull a schrodinger. So if wizard is tier 1, so is the sorc.

Wu Jen is close enough to the wiz to make tier 1. Shugenja is tier 2 due to having a substantially weaker spell list. Beguiler is tier 2 for largely the same reason. Death Master, well, I'd want to vote it tier 5 as well due to having a really stupid name, but to be fair I don't actually have experience with it so I'll abstain on that.

[Zancloufer]

Ignoring the giant conversation here and on to the thread Proper;

Death Master: Tier 1. Okay so it's very much like the Wizard, Low BaB, one good save, 2+int skill points, and same spellcasting mechanics. On the down side no bonus feats and it does have a smaller list though you do get some "cleric" spells on it in exchange for a narrower focus. On the up side you do get Light armour proficiency d8 HD and with a little preparation you essentially have the Automatic Still Spell feats for 4 feats and 20 levels less investment. Undead minion is a toss up compared to a familiar tbh. Overall I think their spell list while weaker still is CLOSE in scope and they have enough goodies on the side to shore up their defenses (double HD size Light armour help and having Still Spell for free pretty much means you never have to cast defensively).

Shugenja: Tier 2. They are pretty much a Sorcerer with a smaller list, d6 HD and 4+int mod skill points. Yes the list hurts and can be limited but there is probably enough things on there that you can hit the same power of a full caster. At least you get some choice in what you spec in and I think it's honestly a side-grade to the Sorcerer. Slightly weaker spell choice for a better chassis and more spells known at the higher levels.

Sorcerer: Tier 2. It's a Wizard with a weaker casting stat no free feats less spells known (and spells known later) and a nerf to meta-magic. Yes they usually have more spells per day and don't have to decide ahead of time what they cast but the delayed progression and all meta-magic increases casting time hurts enough to offset that.

Wu Jen: Tier 1. They are a Wizard that trades the sheer size of a potential spells known for some little neat bonuses. +2 CL and +2 to saving throws to a bunch of spells isn't bad and the spell secret is FREE METAMAGIC. I mean there's a feat that does that but the Wu Jen get's it like 6 times for free. Essentially if the Wizard tried to mimic you it would cost them more feats than they gain in free bonus feats. Also upon close reading of the Wu Jen it appears they know their ENTIRE LIST. Spells known = Yes much like the Cleric and Druid. Smaller list but they don't have to worry about spell books. Overall a side-grade to the Wizard.

[Cosi]

Can we not make this into a lord drako thread? I get that the intentions are pure, and that the conversation might be interesting, but we can have this conversation without having it with a previously banned user, I think. It seems like a thing destined to lead to a bad place. And, as before, the vote won't get counted, so that's not an issue here.

I think the points he raised in his first (second?) post -- the one where he listed a bunch of Sorcerer-only cheese -- are an important part of the discussion and needed to be responded to. It is totally true that you could take Divine Sorcery as a Sorcerer, and the fact that the person who brought that up is a troll doesn't make it not true.


In practice, given a series of unexpected situations, a sorcerer with a well-picked spell list is better able to deal with these than a wizard, because in practice the wizard can't pull a schrodinger. So if wizard is tier 1, so is the sorc.

Sure.


Beguiler is tier 2 for largely the same reason.

I don't think that this is true. Can you come up with a Sorcerer list that is clearly better than the Beguiler's list at a couple different levels? If you have to account for feats? Items?

I don't think there's a coherent view where the Sorcerer and the Beguiler (or Dread Necromancer) are in different tiers. The Sorcerer's ability to choose spells doesn't make up for the Beguiler's vastly larger selection of spells.

But again, this basically comes down to "there is no well formed distinction between Tier One and Tier Two".


Shugenja: Tier 2. They are pretty much a Sorcerer with a smaller list, d6 HD and 4+int mod skill points. Yes the list hurts and can be limited but there is probably enough things on there that you can hit the same power of a full caster. At least you get some choice in what you spec in and I think it's honestly a side-grade to the Sorcerer. Slightly weaker spell choice for a better chassis and more spells known at the higher levels.

At a glance, their list looks like it has some good spells, but how they learn spells seems really annoying for no good reason. Would you mind putting up a Shugenja list you think is reasonable at a couple of different levels?

[DeAnno]

At a glance, their list looks like it has some good spells, but how they learn spells seems really annoying for no good reason. Would you mind putting up a Shugenja list you think is reasonable at a couple of different levels?

Anecdotally, I remember actually trying to build a Shugenja being an incredibly frustrating experience. The list is limited to one book and doesn't even really feature everything you would want from core. On top of that, about half your spells are stuck in a pretty narrow specialty. On top of THAT, a quarter of the spells will be banned for you. And even worse, there are gems like Invisibility and Lesser Restoration as 3rd level spells on there, and Fireball as a 4th.

If a Shugenja is in tier 2, it's definitely rock bottom in it. All the problems of Sorcerer super-limited spells known combined with all the problems of fixed-list casters with their constrained themes and limited splat support.

[eggynack]

I really don't get why somebody is voting tier 5 on the sorcerer. How does that even make sense? :smalleek:
If you mean Drako, I believe that is an S, rather than a 5. Not counting it either way.


Anyway, in my experience it's true in theory that the wizard knows all the spells, and can withdraw, prepare, and overcome anything. At least, at level 20, which is again theory since most campaigns play well below that. In practice, given a series of unexpected situations, a sorcerer with a well-picked spell list is better able to deal with these than a wizard, because in practice the wizard can't pull a schrodinger. So if wizard is tier 1, so is the sorc.
I don't agree that the sorcerer is as good in the realm of practicality. For the moment, let us dismiss all the long term advantages of wizardry, meaning things you can do separate from specific encounter planning and destruction. A few major factors give wizards an advantage in this realm. First, wizards simply have a greater variety of spells. Even a fully generic list is capable of pulling in a wider variety of spells, and the mechanic is notably better at dealing with the fact that certain spells reduce in power as you level while others become better (sleep is an example of the former, while long term buffs are an example of the latter). Second, you have the classic odd spell level advantage. I don't think it's tier altering on its own, but it's important. Third, let's kinda synthesize the first two and note that even levels are really bad by way of spell versatility. You get one top level spell known, while the wizard can get a bunch. Top level spells aren't everything, but they're a reasonable metric as they're the most potent thing you can bring to bear at any given level.

The sorcerer has a few notable advantages here, but I don't think they get anywhere close to making up this difference. First, spells/day. It looks like a lot on the surface, but stuff like specialization or domain wizard cuts the absolute additive gap, and ability score optimization cuts the multiplicative gap (because a thing that gives a single spell/day to two characters does more for the class with fewer spells/day, by way of marginal utility). This issue is also greatly lessened by the odd level thing. Half the time, the wizard is arguably pulling in greater spell juice on a daily basis. Second, the ability to cast wide arrays of linear combinations of what spells you do have. I think this is somewhat overstated as an advantage, because you get so few spells known to construct those linear combinations, as few as one making it entirely useless for that spell level. Consider something like seventh level regarding 3rd level spells. The sorcerer gets say five spells/day, with two known. The wizard gets four spells/day. If the wizard really wants, they can do an AABB and reasonably approximate the sorcerer's shtick, but I'd prefer taking four relatively generic spells that nonetheless have areas where they're superior to having that linear combination of two spells thing.

The last sorcerer advantage is unique spell access, and that, I'll point out, strikes me as more optimized than that strategic stuff I was leaving out. And that strategic stuff is amazing. Divinations to find your foes and learn about them, social and generally less combat oriented spells to deal with between adventures stuff, long term minionmancy, more generic power building effects, long distance travel, and, yes, the ability to somewhat tailor your list to situations. Most of those are available to sorcerers, but while they cost the wizard something, they absolutely cost the sorcerer more. A lot more. Is it sometimes overstated how much more? Sure, but wizards get a serious advantage here, and they get a serious advantage in a lot of other areas too.

I see it like this. At lower optimization, I think the wizard has the advantage, and a pretty big one. All that first paragraph stuff I listed, it's important, and similarly important is the wizard's ability to swap out crappy spells when a poor optimizer learns they're crappy. Sorcerer is, in some ways, very unforgiving. At moderate optimization, I think the wizard has the advantage, and maybe an even bigger one. The sorcerer gets some useful tricks, and the wizard starts making use of serious strategic flexibility. Including, and I think this shows up somewhere between moderate and high optimization, spontaneous divination. At high optimization, I think they're close to equal. Sorcerer gets ways to act like a wizard, up to and including getting spells less late (or even early), and wizard gets ways to act like a sorcerer, including a large quantity of spontaneity. So, the wizard is always equal to or better than the sorcerer, and usually better than. It's a lot of advantage.

Edit:
I think the points he raised in his first (second?) post -- the one where he listed a bunch of Sorcerer-only cheese -- are an important part of the discussion and needed to be responded to. It is totally true that you could take Divine Sorcery as a Sorcerer, and the fact that the person who brought that up is a troll doesn't make it not true.
I get it. It's just a really slippery slope, one that it seems we're already going down, between using some Drako points to start an interesting conversation, and having a full blown argument with the fellow. Not really criticizing what's already happened. Just pointing out that it's risky, perhaps even moreso than may be immediately apparent. Cause, like, you respond to some assorted points of his, and then he inevitably has a response, and that increases his hold on the thread by way of responses to that response, and then maybe there're more interesting points hidden in the Drako stuff that're worth discussion, and it goes on and on. Anyways, he's banned now, so that should open up conversation related to this stuff more. My feeling was that divine sorcery talk is fine as long as it tends to avoid connection to his stuff, and that it's probably even more broadly and obviously fine now.

[lord_khaine]

Regarding the arguments for Death master/Wu jen as tier one. Are their spell list actually broad enough, to break the game in all the ways at the same time?

[remetagross]

Some notes:

First, the power of the Wizard v the Sorcerer isn't necessarily what matters here. What matters is the Sorcerer v whatever the weakest class in Tier One is. Beating the Wizard is sufficient, but not necessary, to be Tier One. If you instead beat the Psion (or Druid, or Artificer, or whatever the worst definitely Tier One class is), you are still Tier One.


True, but the Wizard is presently the third-worst ranked Tier 1, so this bears relevance. Besides, it makes more sense to compare a Sorcerer with a Wizard than with an Artificer (second-worst) and, to a certain extent, to a Spontaneous Druid (worst).

[eggynack]

True, but the Wizard is presently the third-worst ranked Tier 1, so this bears relevance. Besides, it makes more sense to compare a Sorcerer with a Wizard than with an Artificer (second-worst) and, to a certain extent, to a Spontaneous Druid (worst).
I think the spontaneous druid comparison is pretty interesting, actually. It means you don't have to worry so much about the usual fundamental question of spontaneous versus prepared casting, and can instead run a straight list versus list+features comparison. I think the spontaneous druid is significantly better, but the degree of that superiority and the nature of that comparison is an interesting thing.

[remetagross]

They complete each other I suppose. The fact that Druids not only have class features but also divine spellcasting and a rather different spell list makes such a comparison less comprehensive to my mind.

[Gemini476]

You know, I can't help but wonder if the various elements of the Shugenja are variable enough that they'd be in different tiers. That spells known mechanic is pretty restricted, and this isn't like a Wizard situation where the banned schools are all over the place - there's four "specializations" that eat up (at least) half your spells known, and a pre-determined "banned" element.

An Earth Shugenja while be extremely different from an Air Shugenja in a way that you wouldn't necessarily see in other classes. It's kind of weird, to be honest - it's one class, but you pretty much end up with three almost entirely separate spell lists.

Then again, maybe they're all close enough in power that they all end up in the same tier. That could happen, I guess.

[Zancloufer]

At a glance, their list looks like it has some good spells, but how they learn spells seems really annoying for no good reason. Would you mind putting up a Shugenja list you think is reasonable at a couple of different levels?

They pretty much have a "domain" (they get one determined spell from it) a chosen school (1/4 the normal spells and the first number under spells known) and a 1-2 free spells that can be from their not opposed school. Anyway a quick mock up. Note that there where some spells like Sleep and Cause Fear that are good to take at low levels but you can swap out a spell every other level so I would assume one would do so. This is assuming the Air School and Order of the All seeing Eye btw (there are a good 20+ combinations of School and Order)

Level 6 [4+3/2+2/1+1/1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Silence, Fog Cloud, (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste

Level 11 [5+4/3+2/3+2/2+2/2+1/1+1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water, Purify Food & Drink (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Minor Image, Silence, Fog Cloud, Levitate, Heat Metal (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste, Major Image, Glyph of Warding, Call Lightning, (4) *Divination, Air-walk, Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire, Restoration (5) *Commune with Nature, Greater Invisibility, Confusion.

Level 16 [5+4/3+2/3+2/2+2/2+2/2+2/2+1/1+1/1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water, Purify Food & Drink (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Minor Image, Silence, Fog Cloud, Levitate, Heat Metal (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste, Major Image, Glyph of Warding, Call Lightning, (4) *Divination, Air-walk, Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire, Restoration (5) *Commune with Nature, Greater Invisibility, Persistent Image, Confusion, Scrying. (6) *Find the Path, Teleport, Cloudkill, Control Weather (7) *Legend Lore, Programmed Image, Greater Scrying (8) *Vision, Greater Teleport.


So probably not the best lists but I didn't spend a ton of time working on them. We got a nice array here, mostly information gathering, illusions and movement type spells but we do get some buff, crowd control, blasting and healing in there. Big thing to note is that there are spells that are typically "wizard" or "cleric" or "druid" only all on the same list. Essentially compared to the Sorcerer they gain less "wizard" spells and get someone pigeonholed into a few "schools" of magic but gain more spells known and some divine magic on their list in addition to a slightly better chassis. Also worth noting are some of their 9ths:
Teleportation Circle, Implosion, True Resurrection, Disjunction, Imprisionment, SNA 9, Foresight, Soul Bind.

EDIT:

You know, I can't help but wonder if the various elements of the Shugenja are variable enough that they'd be in different tiers. That spells known mechanic is pretty restricted, and this isn't like a Wizard situation where the banned schools are all over the place - there's four "specializations" that eat up (at least) half your spells known, and a pre-determined "banned" element.

An Earth Shugenja while be extremely different from an Air Shugenja in a way that you wouldn't necessarily see in other classes. It's kind of weird, to be honest - it's one class, but you pretty much end up with three almost entirely separate spell lists.

Then again, maybe they're all close enough in power that they all end up in the same tier. That could happen, I guess.

Earth and Air are probably the strongest but they are opposed so if you go for a weaker one (Water/Fire) you can at least grab 2-4 of the Air/Earth ones. Also there is some overlap with the Orders and Schools so choosing a order that has many spells from your banned school can help there. Still they are interesting to build and one can argue that 80% of the build is determined at level 1.

[eggynack]

I'm getting a 2.5 vibe from shugenja. You're not on the level of something like a favored soul, which seems close to the lower end of two, but you're probably better, owing to full casting off of a reasonable list, than a bard, which is the high end of three. Might be worth a closer look, but that seems to be the approximate space the class occupies, and that'll be my current vote.

[Troacctid]

Shugenja: Tier 2. They are pretty much a Sorcerer with a smaller list, d6 HD and 4+int mod skill points. Yes the list hurts and can be limited but there is probably enough things on there that you can hit the same power of a full caster. At least you get some choice in what you spec in and I think it's honestly a side-grade to the Sorcerer. Slightly weaker spell choice for a better chassis and more spells known at the higher levels.
The list is just so much worse though, and you have to contend with so many difficult restrictions, and you have no real class features either. I could see maybe being talked up to 2.5, but 2 just seems too high to me.


Wu Jen: Tier 1. They are a Wizard that trades the sheer size of a potential spells known for some little neat bonuses. +2 CL and +2 to saving throws to a bunch of spells isn't bad and the spell secret is FREE METAMAGIC. I mean there's a feat that does that but the Wu Jen get's it like 6 times for free. Essentially if the Wizard tried to mimic you it would cost them more feats than they gain in free bonus feats. Also upon close reading of the Wu Jen it appears they know their ENTIRE LIST. Spells known = Yes much like the Cleric and Druid. Smaller list but they don't have to worry about spell books. Overall a side-grade to the Wizard.
It's free metamagic, but only for bad metamagic, so it's not actually that good.


Regarding the arguments for Death master/Wu jen as tier one. Are their spell list actually broad enough, to break the game in all the ways at the same time?
That's not really the criteria.

[Rhyltran]

So, pretty clearly report and move on, yeah? Wouldn't be explicitly saying it, but I feel some kinda moderation onus in this case.

He said everything you said is false. One of the things you said was that he didn't mean tier 5 but Tier S. Guess you're wrong about that and he thinks Sorcerer is tier 5.

[RolkFlameraven]

huh, he is like Beetlejuice isn't he? Say his name a few times and there he is.

[Bucky]

Drako's arguments are persuasive. Sorcerers don't belong in tier 1 or even in tier 0.

Sorcerer Tier -2

[DeAnno]

(5) Greater Invisibility

It's sort of telling that the Shugenja list is just so wretchedly bad that you're picking 5th level Greater Invisibility. You know who else can get 5th level GI? Warmages (with ecletic learning)! :smallbiggrin:

[Zombulian]

Since this is a tiering thread for arbitrary casters, why not include the OA Shaman?

[lord_khaine]

That's not really the criteria.

It traditionally has been, and its certainly the unifying theme for the main T1 classes like Cleric, Druid and Wizard.


True, but the Wizard is presently the third-worst ranked Tier 1, so this bears relevance. Besides, it makes more sense to compare a Sorcerer with a Wizard than with an Artificer (second-worst) and, to a certain extent, to a Spontaneous Druid (worst).

You should perhaps stop stating this like its a fact unless you want to start a new tier discussion about where Wizards fit in.

[eggynack]

Since this is a tiering thread for arbitrary casters, why not include the OA Shaman?
Kinda like that plan. Fits our weird subtheme of oriental adventures stuff. We're only like five or six votes deep here, so adding it shouldn't be much of a problem. I'ma toss it in.

Edit:

You should perhaps stop stating this like its a fact unless you want to start a new tier discussion about where Wizards fit in.
It is objective fact specifically regarding the ratings generated in these threads. You were in the wizard thread too. We don't need to start a new anything. The wizard tiering thread is right there.

[Zombulian]

Fits our weird subtheme of oriental adventures stuff. We're only like five or six votes deep here, so adding it shouldn't be much of a problem. I'ma toss it in.

Nice. My thoughts exactly.

[Florian]

Earth and Air are probably the strongest but they are opposed so if you go for a weaker one (Water/Fire) you can at least grab 2-4 of the Air/Earth ones. Also there is some overlap with the Orders and Schools so choosing a order that has many spells from your banned school can help there. Still they are interesting to build and one can argue that 80% of the build is determined at level 1.

Well, basically you chose the defensive/healer path (water) or the offensive path (fire).
Keep in mind that OA was a coop between WotC and AEG, so you´ll find the advanced rules for the Shugenja in the "Secrets of" splat books, which hugely upgrade to schools and their options, giving each one a 5-level PrC.

[Elderand]

It is objective fact specifically regarding the ratings generated in these threads. You were in the wizard thread too. We don't need to start a new anything. The wizard tiering thread is right there.

I don't think it is. Different vote amount and different people voting makes any such placement within the tier dubious at best.

[eggynack]

I don't think it is. Different vote amount and different people voting makes any such placement within the tier dubious at best.
Most of the tier one classes were in a single thread, so that kind of distortion is minimized somewhat. Apart from the sha'ir, every class from that thread got within three votes of each other. And that one got a straight up one. The only tier one not from that thread is the spontaneous druid, which is rated lower. Anyway, the basis for the claim is definitely something objective rather than subjective, and it still strikes me as really weird to seek out a new thread for a topic that already very much has a thread associated. Wouldn't be necromancy to revive it.

[Soranar]

I haven't had time to review the entire lists yet (especially since wu jen and shujenga are so counterintuitive)

but as for the death master and sorcerer

Death master ... tier 1

The spell list is strong except at level 1 and 3 which is merely ok

-you can target fort or will saves
-you have grease/web/solid fog/black tentacles as battlefield control
-you have alter self and such as utility spells
-you have information gathering spells, social spells (charm monster, dominate monster, dominate person)
-you have your counter mage utilities like dispel magic and globes of invulnerability

all of this is basic caster stuff, what you get on top of it

-d8 hitpoints
-rebuke undead
-immunity to mindless undead as of level 4, other undead get a save
-most undead defenses without any of their weakness at level 15 (I would probably prestige out before lichdom just to keep this)
-you become a lich at level 20

finally the undead minion

-at level 1 it's strickly worse than a riding dog (skeleton wolf) but he's still better than the fighter
-at level 4 you get a ghoul (paralysis effect) which is a bit better
-at level 7 the chimera seems like the best choice (mediocre at best but 9 free undead HD is nothing to scoff at)
-at level 10 you get a wightapocalypse as a class feature, if that's banned than you still have the ettin with superior 2 weapon fighting (I would suggest a throwing javelin build due to this)
-at level 13 you get a 17 HD cloud giant skeleton for free (no cost, doesn't affect your animate dead HD cap and you get a new one if it dies) or you can upgrade your wightapocalypse to a wraith apocalypse
-at level 16 your wraith apocalypse becomes a spectre

the bonus undead minion is better than the extra HD you get from dread necromancer , you also get a free disposable minion (since they just come back the next day)

your rebuking is weaker since you're int based

your spell list is far more extensive (and versatile)

finally, you have tier 1 casting, 1 free fairly powerful undead minion, d8 hitpoints and 3/4 BAB if all else fails.

investing in a familiar (through obtain familiar) is not a bad idea

sorcerer, tier 2

Just too few spell knowns to be tier 1, there are workarounds but (since prc are not allowed in this evaluation) the sorcerer suffers the most from this. There is no reason to stay a sorcerer past level 5.

If UMD was somehow a class feature, or custom staffs readily available (you would need several) this could go up to tier 1.

no class features to speak of

[Elderand]

Most of the tier one classes were in a single thread, so that kind of distortion is minimized somewhat. Apart from the sha'ir, every class from that thread got within three votes of each other. And that one got a straight up one. The only tier one not from that thread is the spontaneous druid, which is rated lower. Anyway, the basis for the claim is definitely something objective rather than subjective, and it still strikes me as really weird to seek out a new thread for a topic that already very much has a thread associated. Wouldn't be necromancy to revive it.

The problem is that the vote was merely about what tier each class belongs to, not about how they rank within the tier in comparaison to each other.

If I ask people whether or not some food should be considered candy, I can't use their answer to declare which of the candy is the best candy. Because that wasn't the question asked in the first place.

[Rhyltran]

The problem is that the vote was merely about what tier each class belongs to, not about how they rank within the tier in comparaison to each other.

If I ask people whether or not some food should be considered candy, I can't use their answer to declare which of the candy is the best candy. Because that wasn't the question asked in the first place.

This maybe true but at the same time your analogy is flawed. A more accurate comparison is if you are asking which candies belong in a great mediocre or not so good category. While you are still not asking them to rank the candy if people unanimously vote milk chocolate as great and m&m's had a mix vote of great and mediocre but leaned more towards great, you can extrapolate that milk chocolate is more popular and is widely considered great.

So let's now say someone wants the best candy and has neither had milk chocolate bars or m&ms. Based on the data despite them both being great it looks like in this sample the milk chocolate bars clearly have the edge. No one voted to compare them to each other but it inevitably happened anyway.

[remetagross]

If I ask people whether or not some food should be considered candy, I can't use their answer to declare which of the candy is the best candy. Because that wasn't the question asked in the first place.

Actually, I think you can use their answer to declare which candy is the best candy. You just use a different voting system. During a poll about which Pokémon you like best, people only give one answer, not a comprehensive list of all the Pokémons ranked according to their preference; yet at the end of the day, we can produce such a comprehensive list, saying "statistically, Geodude is the favorite Pokémon of the third largest voters pool, so it is ranked third." That is the reasoning applied in the case of the Wizard ranking: more people think it is tier 2 than people think Druid is tier 2. Even though people did not explicitly state "Druids are better than Wizards", we can still say that on average, people think Druids are better than Wizards. Don't you think?

[Cosi]

Looking at he-who-must-not-be-named's post, it strikes me that list expansion seems like a really bad argument for moving the Sorcerer up. All those items work for the Beguiler (if occasionally with a UMD check), and adding a bunch of spells to everyone's list dilutes the difference between the Sorcerer getting planar binding and the Beguiler not getting that. But once you do that, I think there's no real argument for bumping the Sorcerer up.


Level 6 [4+3/2+2/1+1/1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Silence, Fog Cloud, (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste

This seems seriously offensively anemic. haste is good, but it's no stinking cloud. Also, your 2nd and 3rd level lists are strictly worse than the Beguiler's


Level 11 [5+4/3+2/3+2/2+2/2+1/1+1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water, Purify Food & Drink (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Minor Image, Silence, Fog Cloud, Levitate, Heat Metal (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste, Major Image, Glyph of Warding, Call Lightning, (4) *Divination, Air-walk, Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire, Restoration (5) *Commune with Nature, Greater Invisibility, Confusion.

Once again, you have pretty weak offensive options. confusion isn't cutting it when people throwing around cloudkill and dominate person. Similarly, 5th level greater invisibility seems less than awesome.


Level 16 [5+4/3+2/3+2/2+2/2+2/2+2/2+1/1+1/1]:
(0): *Guidance, Daze, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Detect Magic, Light, Create Water, Purify Food & Drink (1) *Detect Snares&Pits, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Feather Fall (2) *Detect Thoughts, Minor Image, Silence, Fog Cloud, Levitate, Heat Metal (3) *Clairaudience & Clairvoyance, Haste, Major Image, Glyph of Warding, Call Lightning, (4) *Divination, Air-walk, Hallucinatory Terrain, Wall of Fire, Restoration (5) *Commune with Nature, Greater Invisibility, Persistent Image, Confusion, Scrying. (6) *Find the Path, Teleport, Cloudkill, Control Weather (7) *Legend Lore, Programmed Image, Greater Scrying (8) *Vision, Greater Teleport.

Your only remotely offensive option in your top two spell levels is programmed image. That's ... not great. Also, your secondary option is cloudkill, but it's coming out of 6th level slots.

Overall, you get a bunch of spells, but lots of them are delayed for no reason (greater teleport wasn't exactly the best spell in the world at 7th level, and you get it at 8th level). On top of that, your offensive options seem to be really, really bad.


Actually, I think you can use their answer to declare which candy is the best candy. You just use a different voting system. During a poll about which Pokémon you like best, people only give one answer, not a comprehensive list of all the Pokémons ranked according to their preference; yet at the end of the day, we can produce such a comprehensive list, saying "statistically, Geodude is the favorite Pokémon of the third largest voters pool, so it is ranked third." That is the reasoning applied in the case of the Wizard ranking: more people think it is tier 2 than people think Druid is tier 2. Even though people did not explicitly state "Druids are better than Wizards", we can still say that on average, people think Druids are better than Wizards. Don't you think?

Remember, the top end of votes are compressed. "The Wizard is the best class in the world" and "the Wizard is at the bottom of, but definitely in, Tier One" look exactly the same.

[remetagross]

Remember, the top end of votes are compressed. "The Wizard is the best class in the world" and "the Wizard is at the bottom of, but definitely in, Tier One" look exactly the same.
For one, I think this is the reason why having more than just the mode of each tier on the spreadsheet is valuable information, because it precisely allows us to see somewhat past this problem.

[Duelpersonality]

I don't have any experience with the death maste or OA shaman, so I'm out on those.

Shugenja: Having seen a few of these in play, I'm generally unimpressed. The really limited lists are a huge hinderance. 2.5, but I'm on the fence about being lower.

Sorcerer: Strictly comparing to the low end of the Tier 1 classes in this effort, I cant see this getting better than Tier 2.

Wu jen: They're wizards with some boosts to CL and a few free metamagics on a smaller but still potent list. The unique spells have enough oomph for me to say Tier 1.

[DEMON]

Shugenja: T2.5. Their spell list isn't that bad... if it wasn't for the prohibited element always costing you something nice (I usually go with Earth and All-Seeying Eye, but, oh boy, are they missing a lot...). Still, while they're worse than probably all the other T2s, I don't think they should fall all the way down to T3.

Sorcerer: I'm actually inclined to vote T1.5, given it's spell list (including Soc only spells), though compared to Spontaneous Druid... it's probably weaker with next to no class features. Either among the weakest classes in T1, or the strongest ones i T2, your pick.

Wu Jen: T1. The spell list is weaker than the Wizard's, but it still has a lot of nice options. And the class features are nice, if not great.


PS: My NPC classes votes are not included on the spreadsheet, though I posted on that thread a week ago.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't think it is. Different vote amount and different people voting makes any such placement within the tier dubious at best.

I think it's fine that different folks are voting in different threads. For example, I've been reading all of them, and contributing when I can. But I know that I wouldn't feel right in voting for many of the classes presented, because I haven't played or built any of them enough to be confident in giving them an accurate tier. It seems that mostly folks that are familiar with the classes are voting. That should mean fewer votes that duplicate JaronK's tiers out of ignorance, and thus hopefully more accurate ratings.

[Rhyltran]

I think it's fine that different folks are voting in different threads. For example, I've been reading all of them, and contributing when I can. But I know that I wouldn't feel right in voting for many of the classes presented, because I haven't played or built any of them enough to be confident in giving them an accurate tier. It seems that mostly folks that are familiar with the classes are voting. That should mean fewer votes that duplicate JaronK's tiers out of ignorance, and thus hopefully more accurate ratings.

I agree with this. A lot of the frequent voters might vote on this or that but those same frequent voters are the same ones where, here and there, respond with statements like "I don't feel comfortable voting for ___" or "I am not experienced enough commenting on ___" so less votes from ignorance and more confident votes.

[Elderand]

I think it's fine that different folks are voting in different threads. For example, I've been reading all of them, and contributing when I can. But I know that I wouldn't feel right in voting for many of the classes presented, because I haven't played or built any of them enough to be confident in giving them an accurate tier. It seems that mostly folks that are familiar with the classes are voting. That should mean fewer votes that duplicate JaronK's tiers out of ignorance, and thus hopefully more accurate ratings.

That's not what we were talking about though.

[GilesTheCleric]

That's not what we were talking about though.

Ah, did you mean to say that your problem was with the relatively low sample size? My apologies if I misunderstood.

[Elderand]

Ah, did you mean to say that your problem was with the relatively low sample size? My apologies if I misunderstood.

Well...somewhat, but from I read of your post, you're talking about voting to decide which class goes into what tier. That's not what I have a problem with.
The problem I have is using those votes for which class goes into what tier to then extrapolate and make a ranking of classes inside the tier.

Going from wizard is tier 1, sorcerer is 2, fighter 5 and so on and then use that to then say Wizard is the 4th worst tier 1 class.
I object to the idea that it's valid to ask people to vote on one thing and then use those vote on a completely different question.

[DeAnno]

After the discussion about variable populations voting I'm more comfortable with putting out votes for the classes I'm relatively confident about.

Sorcerer: 1.5 I feel this is head and shoulders above the bulk of T2 for the majority of its levels despite its weak start, and that the sheer power of its native spell list is second to none. Wings of Cover, Arcane Fusion, easy Spellsurge can be character defining throughout the progression. While the limited spells known is hurtful, Bloodline feats from DMcomp are quite efficient and operational from level 1 if one wishes to engage them. For the record, I would probably put Psion here too.

Shugenja: 3.5 (edited down from 3) The Wilder of spellcasting. While you can take a casual glance at the list and claim it has the tools to succeed, even if only barely, the circumstances of how it is forced to use them and how constrained it is are too punishing to ignore. The sheer number of spells a level higher almost acts as a dampened level progression on top of what Spontaneous already must endure; an interesting comparison is thinking what an Eceletic Learning Warmage looks like at various levels: same constrained focus with a couple over-level spells to round things out.

Wu Jen: 1 I would be remiss if I didn't reward the Wu Jen for it's interesting and largely unique spell list after just doing the same for the Sorcerer. Unlike most one-splat-wonder classes the Wu Jen is compensated for a lack of support elsewhere by gems all its own such as Body Outside Body and Giant Size. It gets almost all of the Wizard's core tricks, and a lot of what it doesn't is replaced by thematic alternates such as Spirit Binding. I think all things considered it's still slightly weaker, but not enough to even bump it down half a tier.

[Zombulian]

I don't know enough about Death Master so I will withhold judgement for now. Seems like a high Tier 2 to me, but I could be convinced to place it in Tier 1.

OA Shaman: T1 for sure. I'd be tempted to place them above Wizard if it weren't for the fact that their spell list is limited to their home book (if you allow for the Spell Compendium's recommendation of giving Shamans the Cleric domains from that book, then they beat Wizard imo). Druid Animal Companion progression, Turn Undead for DMM fueling, incredibly useful native Domains in addition to the Spell Compendium list, and a neat uniqueness in the Spirit Ally spell line. Really feel like this class needs more love.

Shugenja: (edit)T4 I want to like this class so much but it's really just such garbage. It's still a caster with Sorc progression (edit: Zaq has demonstrated that it doesn't even really have that) and has some neat spells. But overall, the gimped progression in addition to the incredible restrictions based upon element make this class probably worse than most everything in Tier 3.

Sorcerer: I'm gonna give this one an uncontroversial rating of T2. Probably the top of T2, but still T2.

Wu Jen: Free metamagic, prepared casting, small list but versatile and some of those spells pack a wallop. I'm leaning to put this riiiight at the bottom of T1, right below Wizard and their splatbook support.

[Cosi]

Sorcerer: I'm actually inclined to vote T1.5, given it's spell list (including Soc only spells), though compared to Spontaneous Druid... it's probably weaker with next to no class features. Either among the weakest classes in T1, or the strongest ones i T2, your pick.

Sorcerer: 1.5 I feel this is head and shoulders above the bulk of T2 for the majority of its levels despite its weak start, and that the sheer power of its native spell list is second to none. Wings of Cover, Arcane Fusion, easy Spellsurge can be character defining throughout the progression. While the limited spells known is hurtful, Bloodline feats from DMcomp are quite efficient and operational from level 1 if one wishes to engage them. For the record, I would probably put Psion here too.

I just can't see putting the Sorcerer above the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer.

I don't think the Sorcerer's ability to learn polymorph is particularly better than the Dread Necromancer's ability to learn thirteen different 4th level spells (which include animate dead and black tentacles), and once you start talking about expanding lists with Bloodline Feats or whatever, the Beguiler looks even better because it can do all that stuff and getting native UMD and fixed list casting makes it better at it.

Even the Sorcerer-only spells don't seem to put you that far ahead. arcane fusion is good action economy, but so are the giant piles of undead or charmed minions the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler get for free (to say nothing of the possibility of planar binding).

What does the spell list of a Sorcerer that's clearly better than a comparably optimized Beguiler or Dread Necromancer look like?

[Troacctid]

I just can't see putting the Sorcerer above the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer.

I don't think the Sorcerer's ability to learn polymorph is particularly better than the Dread Necromancer's ability to learn thirteen different 4th level spells (which include animate dead and black tentacles), and once you start talking about expanding lists with Bloodline Feats or whatever, the Beguiler looks even better because it can do all that stuff and getting native UMD and fixed list casting makes it better at it.

Even the Sorcerer-only spells don't seem to put you that far ahead. arcane fusion is good action economy, but so are the giant piles of undead or charmed minions the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler get for free (to say nothing of the possibility of planar binding).

What does the spell list of a Sorcerer that's clearly better than a comparably optimized Beguiler or Dread Necromancer look like?
I agree, and I think the Beguiler is honestly probably ahead of the Sorcerer when you consider the comparatively greater number of lower-op Sorcerers dragging down its weighted average power level.

[Luccan]

Going from wizard is tier 1, sorcerer is 2, fighter 5 and so on and then use that to then say Wizard is the 4th worst tier 1 class.
I object to the idea that it's valid to ask people to vote on one thing and then use those vote on a completely different question.

You could potentially ask people to order them in the tiers, I suppose, but that thread would be much more complex to do properly, at least before tiering in general is finished. That said, you can extrapolate somewhat from the votes we've gotten so far as to where they may fall, given the Wizard (in this instance) has the third most votes for tier 2 of all tier 1 classes. Of course, outliers are a problem. So really, if you wanted to see if Sorc was tier 1, the best thing to do would be to pit it against all of the current T1 classes in different situations. If it "wins" enough of those situations or at least doesn't come last, it's definitely in. If it doesn't, then people can argue more about it's placement, because it could still be the lowest tier 1 class.

[Zombulian]

I agree, and I think the Beguiler is honestly probably ahead of the Sorcerer when you consider the comparatively greater number of lower-op Sorcerers dragging down its weighted average power level.

This is an excellent point. One of the primary bonuses to a fixed spell list (besides Rainbow Servant shenanigans and the like) is that as a player you don't have the chance to set yourself up with a bunch of nonsense spells on your Known list.

[eggynack]

The problem is that the vote was merely about what tier each class belongs to, not about how they rank within the tier in comparaison to each other.

If I ask people whether or not some food should be considered candy, I can't use their answer to declare which of the candy is the best candy. Because that wasn't the question asked in the first place.
I think it's a lot closer than you're indicating. First, the use of fractional votes does give some leeway in terms of positioning within a tier. Second, unlike in your candy example, we're using like metrics, even if not at the level of granularity you want for this purpose. It's more like I'm using this candy data to determine how much a given food is considered candy. I'm not necessarily considering how much each person thinks the thing is candy, but we can definitely use the binary information being granted us to model the more curvy information we're seeking. Binary regression models are a thing. Third, beyond that fractional thing, there's room outside of two tiers, making this necessarily somewhat less binary than you're claiming.

What I'm talking about here is much less like this candy modelling quality thing, and a lot more like, well, Rotten Tomatoes. As you may well know, the key metric on that site is the reduction of scores to a pure binary yes/no on quality structure, and using that to model quality in the specific. The issues you cite are pretty consistent between these things. Somewhat inconsistent reviewers, differing review quantity, conversion from binary to continuous, and the reviewers not being necessarily aware of this output are all issues, as is, say, varying object obscurity and differing object type. Is it a perfect model? No, but it's a workable one, and given the fractional thing my model is actually less binary than the RT model. It's a reasonably objective and generally acceptable thing to base this sort of position on. Someone saying, "This is the third best class," or, "This is the third best movie," isn't going to be fully correct, but their claim has some backing to it, and if they're claiming it within the context of the review system in general then they're even more correct. Saying, "This is the third best movie, going by Rotten Tomatoes," is not all that insane. Less insane than you're indicating, at least.

[Zancloufer]

This seems seriously offensively anemic. haste is good, but it's no stinking cloud. Also, your 2nd and 3rd level lists are strictly worse than the Beguiler's

Once again, you have pretty weak offensive options. confusion isn't cutting it when people throwing around cloudkill and dominate person. Similarly, 5th level greater invisibility seems less than awesome.

Your only remotely offensive option in your top two spell levels is programmed image. That's ... not great. Also, your secondary option is cloudkill, but it's coming out of 6th level slots.

Overall, you get a bunch of spells, but lots of them are delayed for no reason (greater teleport wasn't exactly the best spell in the world at 7th level, and you get it at 8th level). On top of that, your offensive options seem to be really, really bad.


I went for a much more utility oriented build there. I admit it is kind of anemic on the offensive side and does rely a lot on Illusions. Hoesntly their spell list feels a lot like the Druid's but it had less animal buffing/summoning for more healing options and a bunch of teleportation and illusion spells. On it's own yeah it will suck, but hey you can still employ "Scry and Die" tactics. Maybe trade some of the offensive options off for things like (greater) Restoration and (True) Resurrection would have been better?

[DeAnno]

Even the Sorcerer-only spells don't seem to put you that far ahead. arcane fusion is good action economy, but so are the giant piles of undead or charmed minions the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler get for free (to say nothing of the possibility of planar binding).

In my experience, minions tend to be sort of incompetent compared to PCs; they're still useful, but their actions just don't have the same impact and often they can't get done what needs doing. Undead are nice balls of meat, and if you can get charminated armies to work it's great, but in practice ... well I have often seen these sort of hijinx go wrong, or at least go awkwardly. Saying that having a pile of minions really is comparable to the sheer PC action advantage in the three spells I mentioned specifically just doesn't bear out in my in game experience, and I have seen both piles of minions and those spells used in play.

I think it's all too easy to look at a Beguiler especially and see the oodles of juicy spells only to forget how many of them have the dreaded Mind Affecting tag and how often this causes problems against creature types at low levels and dangerous opponents at high levels. Beguilers and Dread Necros are a joy to play when things go right, but difficult to build in such a way that they persevere as well when things go wrong. Your army of critters might not always be there; it could be awkward to cart around or get itself killed or you could be breaking out of prison or moral do-gooders might be looking down their noses at it. Your Arcane Fusion and Wings of Cover will always be there in your head.

I think in general my opinions are shaped by the sorts of games I play in, which are fairly high OP, rooted in tactical combat, and cover all levels about equally. I don't especially hold with the "weighted down by all the terrible builds" logic either, because I think if you take that to its full conclusion playing Wizard is difficult and frustrating enough to do properly that it is no longer deserving of its T1 rating, and a lot of the assumptions of the system are going to be upended.

[Cosi]

I agree, and I think the Beguiler is honestly probably ahead of the Sorcerer when you consider the comparatively greater number of lower-op Sorcerers dragging down its weighted average power level.

Pretty much.

The only point of comparison where it's close is if you discount everything other than the class's native casting, but that's so absurdly warped as to be a self-defeating strawman.

In low OP, the Beguiler is better because he gets a bunch of good offense and utility options without having to do anything. That's non-trivial. In the games where Sorcerer are slinging fireball or cone of cold, the Beguiler still gets major image and dominate person.

In mid OP, the Beguiler is probably slightly behind the Sorcerer in raw power, but it brings a stupidly huge variety of utility options to the table, and still has a strong combat suite.

In high OP, the Beguiler can get any spell it wants and cast it whenever it wants, it can rearrange its list on a day-by-day basis, and it knows more spells than the Sorcerer.


Maybe trade some of the offensive options off for things like (greater) Restoration and (True) Resurrection would have been better?

That makes it much worse. Fundamentally, to get in the door at all you need something to do in combat that doesn't suck. If the Shugenja doesn't bring that to the table, it doesn't get to sit with the big boys. If you stapled that to something like a Bardblade or Rogue or Swift Hunter that can do level appropriate damage, but has no utility options, it would be quite good. But on its own it means you have to almost nothing to do in the largest portion of the game.


In my experience, minions tend to be sort of incompetent compared to PCs; they're still useful, but their actions just don't have the same impact and often they can't get done what needs doing. Undead are nice balls of meat, and if you can get charminated armies to work it's great, but in practice ... well I have often seen these sort of hijinx go wrong, or at least go awkwardly. Saying that having a pile of minions really is comparable to the sheer PC action advantage in the three spells I mentioned specifically just doesn't bear out in my in game experience, and I have seen both piles of minions and those spells used in play.

A Beguiler has the ability to permanently pokemon any defeated enemy that can be communicated with and charmed. In practice, they don't do that because if they did it would bog down the entire campaign to a crawl, but it seems weird to say they aren't powerful on account of that.


I think it's all too easy to look at a Beguiler especially and see the oodles of juicy spells only to forget how many of them have the dreaded Mind Affecting tag and how often this causes problems against creature types at low levels and dangerous opponents at high levels.

At low levels the things that are immune to mind effecting spells are mostly mindless creatures that lose hard to illusions, and guess who has silent image totally for free? At high levels you have a huge pile of minions, and you can expand your spell list pretty trivially to have options when people are immune. Also, you do have illusions if you want them, and they are pretty effective.


Beguilers and Dread Necros are a joy to play when things go right, but difficult to build in such a way that they persevere as well when things go wrong.

This is not even close to true, particularly for the Beguiler. Yes, your base spell list is less than ideal. However, you have the best possible mechanics for expanding your spell list. You know all the spells on your list, and can cast them whenever you want. This makes things that add spells to your list (like Prestige Domains, Rainbow Servant, or even Prestige Bard in some cases) amazing. Plus, you get access to most of the tricks the Sorcerer could use to expand their list. Since the Beguiler gets UMD, it can use items like Knowstones or Runestaves to expand its list as well. Fundamentally, if you find that your options are too limited as a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, you're doing it wrong.


I think in general my opinions are shaped by the sorts of games I play in, which are fairly high OP, rooted in tactical combat, and cover all levels about equally.

You play high OP games where Beguilers and Dread Necromancers don't expand their spell lists?

[eggynack]

I think it's all too easy to look at a Beguiler especially and see the oodles of juicy spells only to forget how many of them have the dreaded Mind Affecting tag and how often this causes problems against creature types at low levels and dangerous opponents at high levels.
Leaving aside Cosi's image and spell addition arguments, beguilers have tons of spells that aren't mind-affecting. At least at the first four spell levels. If we ignore spells that lack combat power, mind-affecting spells, and image spells, we still have mage armor, obscuring mist, and expeditious retreat at first level (the main combat spell at this level is really silent image, along with color spray and charm person, so the list is a bit misleading), blinding color surge, fog cloud, glitterdust, invisibility, mirror image (not an image spell by the definition I'm talking about), see invisibility, silence, and spider climb as second level spells, dispel magic, displacement, kinda glibness, halt, haste, invisibility sphere, legion of sentinels, slow, vertigo field, and zone of silence as third level spells, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, greater mirror image, phantom battle, and solid fog as fourth level spells.

Things get a lot thinner on the ground from that point forward, though it's notable that dominate person comes online at 5th level spells for the purposes of more general analysis. Greater dispel shows up at 6th's as well, and 9th's aren't really a problem either. There are really strong combat spells all over the place on that list, including ones that are roughly top of the line. Then you toss all those wacky utility spells back in, add the mind affecting spells for those cases where you do face compatibly typed creatures, make use of silent image on occasion, and maybe pick up arcane disciple, and you have a really great list. I don't think the idea that beguilers fail to operate effectively against creatures with immunity to mind affecting holds up.

[lord_khaine]

A Beguiler has the ability to permanently pokemon any defeated enemy that can be communicated with and charmed. In practice, they don't do that because if they did it would bog down the entire campaign to a crawl, but it seems weird to say they aren't powerful on account of that.

Kinda disagree with the pokemon part. From what i can read of the charm spell it only sets the targets attitude to friendly. Thats certainly not enough to make it risk its life for you. Or am i missing a step here besides diplomacy abuse?


Since the Beguiler gets UMD, it can use items like Knowstones or Runestaves to expand its list as well. Fundamentally, if you find that your options are too limited as a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, you're doing it wrong.

Will point out here that Runestaves in general are both kinda sucky and expensive for their spell selection. And if you make a custom runestave then its a custom magic item with its need for GM aproval.

[Cosi]

Kinda disagree with the pokemon part. From what i can read of the charm spell it only sets the targets attitude to friendly. Thats certainly not enough to make it risk its life for you. Or am i missing a step here besides diplomacy abuse?

Once the target is friendly, you can make them permanently helpful with a DC 20 check. It's cheesy, but we're talking about a high OP game, so it is worth noting as a thing that exists. Similarly, UMD no-slot Knowstones, and early entry Rainbow Servant.


Will point out here that Runestaves in general are both kinda sucky and expensive for their spell selection. And if you make a custom runestave then its a custom magic item with its need for GM aproval.

Perhaps. But the underlying point is that Beguilers can do anything Sorcerers can do to expand their list, and also additional things.

[Troacctid]

Once the target is friendly, you can make them permanently helpful with a DC 20 check. It's cheesy, but we're talking about a high OP game, so it is worth noting as a thing that exists. Similarly, UMD no-slot Knowstones, and early entry Rainbow Servant.
As I'm sure I've said before, by RAW, you can't change their attitude from friendly while the spell is still active, as it's still there setting them to friendly regardless of what their attitude would otherwise be.

[Cosi]

As I'm sure I've said before, by RAW, you can't change their attitude from friendly while the spell is still active, as it's still there setting them to friendly regardless of what their attitude would otherwise be.

And as I'm sure I've said before, that's not how things work. If something sets a value (for example, polymorph setting your physical ability scores to those of whatever you turned into) and something else comes along and changes them (for example, a Shadow hitting you for some STR damage), the first effect does not override the second. Even if it did work that way, there's nothing to stop you from "banking" a change in attitude, but that doesn't matter because having it work as you propose would be inconsistent with how any other form of magic interacts with later effects. polymorph does not make you immune to damage or form changing magic. stone shape does not create structures that are immune to carving. flesh to stone does not prevent subsequent casting of rock to mud.

[Soranar]

I took the time to look up the wu jen and the shugenja.

The wu jen comes off as a low tier 1 class to me: it has just enough powerful tricks (spirit binding comes to mind) to have something powerful to contribute in every situation. It's more versatile than a typical tier 2 (like a sorcerer) so I'm going to stick with tier 1.

The shugenja is much weaker. The delayed spellcasting hurts a lot, the unique spells are mostly terrible and the opposite element problematic makes it difficult to have a decent spell list. I almost wanted to vote tier 3 for this but you still have access to enough powerful tricks to barely make it into tier 2 so I guess tier 2.5 makes the most sense.

[Zombulian]

I took the time to look up the wu jen and the shugenja.

The wu jen comes off as a low tier 1 class to me: it has just enough powerful tricks (spirit binding comes to mind) to have something powerful to contribute in every situation. It's more versatile than a typical tier 2 (like a sorcerer) so I'm going to stick with tier 1.

The shugenja is much weaker. The delayed spellcasting hurts a lot, the unique spells are mostly terrible and the opposite element problematic makes it difficult to have a decent spell list. I almost wanted to vote tier 3 for this but you still have access to enough powerful tricks to barely make it into tier 2 so I guess tier 2.5 makes the most sense.

2.5 makes sense to me as a rating for Shugenja until I remember that Bards are technically tier 3 and I think they're way more useful than the freakin Shuggies.

[lord_khaine]

Once the target is friendly, you can make them permanently helpful with a DC 20 check. It's cheesy, but we're talking about a high OP game, so it is worth noting as a thing that exists. Similarly, UMD no-slot Knowstones, and early entry Rainbow Servant.

A couple of points here. First i would say that abusing diplomacy dont have anything to do with high OP, its just cheese on the line of abusing candles of invocation. At least in my book.
Secondly its something everyone can do, they just need a slightly higher check. Even a Monk can beat someone unconcious, tie them to a tree and hammer them with diplomacy checks until they are his friend naruto style.


Perhaps. But the underlying point is that Beguilers can do anything Sorcerers can do to expand their list, and also additional things.

Im not going to touch the Sorcerer spell list with an 11 feet pole..
And i just think that the stated need for expanding the Beguilers spell list in itself reveals that its less strong. (the spell list)

[Zaq]

Hoo boy. This is a nasty one. As was the case with several other of these threads, I haven't really read too many of the other replies, so hopefully I'm not going to be too influenced by anyone else (though, by the same token, I may be repeating someone else's arguments).

Sorcerer: This one's easy. T2. It's, like, basically the definition of T2. It's got access to the strongest spell list in the game, it's got an acceptable number of spells known (okay, it never feels acceptable when you're actually building one, but it's way above, like, a Wilder), but it requires shenanigans and/or sacrifices to take advantage of one-off spells, downtime spells, or situational spells. But it still has phenomenal cosmic powah, so yeah. T2.

Death Master: Never seen one of these bad boys in play, so it's a little tricky. We're basically looking at a Wizard with a smaller spell list and an undead companion instead of a familiar, right? (Seems like the undead minion has a higher op floor and a lower op ceiling than a traditional familiar, mostly because it's disposable.) The spell list seems reasonably robust. It's no Wizard list (even in Core-only, I'd probably lean towards the Wizard at most levels, if for no other reason than that the Death Master doesn't get many fun illusions), but it's respectable, and they've got Wizard-style spellbook casting. Rebuke Undead is perfectly abusable. I think I need to come back to these.

Shaman: Abstain. I've literally never even looked at them. I mean, I'm looking at them right now, but I've never even thought about what one would play like, let alone built one or seen one in play. I don't think I've ever even mixed one into an Iron Chef build.

Shugenja: This is one of the hardest classes for me to tier. I've thought about this a lot in the past, and I can make an argument for anything from T2 to T4. (We'll basically ignore Sense Elements, though I will note that I find it amusing that even the example admits that the ability is basically useless.) On the high end, they're 9th level casters with some control over their spells (meaning that they aren't fixed-list casters like the Warmage), and they aren't as immediately cut off from useful effects as the Healer. That seems like T2, at least under the old definition of T2. But then you try to build one, and you realize how completely bloody insane their elemental restriction is. Not only do you have to cut yourself off from an element (and every element has at least a few spells that would be nice to have on more or less any general-purpose caster), but half of your small number of spells known have to come from your favored element? That's ridiculously restrictive in actual play. So above orisons, you can have, at most, two spells of any level that aren't your favored element, plus maybe one if you happen to pick a good order. That's insanely hard to build around, and it's way more difficult than it should be to actually cover the bases that any decent caster needs to cover. Every single spell you take comes at this more-obnoxious-than-average opportunity cost, and honestly, it reminds me of a Shadowcaster. (Shadowcasters have it a bit worse in that Shugenjas at least have lots of spells per day, but still.) That means that you're going to be good at what you choose to be good at, but you have to choose some things to not be good at, and there's always going to be gaps in your repertoire basically no matter how hard you try—that seems like T4 to me.

(I'll put in a sidebar here and say that if more casting classes were designed like Shugenja, by which I mean that you really did have to make hard choices like that, I think the game would be a bit better balanced, but such is life.)

Their high-level spells don't seem to be nearly as game-smashing as any of the obvious T1 classes. No Wish/Miracle, no Time Stop/Gate/Shapechange, no PAO, no Planar Binding or Planar Ally, no Astral Projection . . . I'm not saying they don't have strong spells, but they don't seem to have the "I'm going to reshape the campaign world in my image" spells that dominate the obvious T1 lists.

There's a big part of me that wants to put them in T4. High T4, scraping the ceiling, but the fact remains that they don't have the flexibility to actually be competent generalists, and their spell list is small enough that they won't usually have the raw power to say "okay, all I have is a hammer, but it's a damn fine hammer." But then I remember that I put the martial adepts in T3, and it feels a little strange to keep a full caster with stuff like Glitterdust and Haste out of the same tier as the initiators (who are mostly just good at hitting stuff, though they're good at hitting stuff in varied ways that's difficult to shut down). But then I checked, and I realized that you can't actually have Glitterdust and Haste on the same Shugenja, because they're in opposed schools, which kind of underscores the point that you're always going to have to sacrifice something in ways that other casters just plain don't have to deal with. And there's weird stuff like Invisibility and Stoneskin being at higher levels than they should be, or getting Haste but not Slow, or getting True Rez but not any other form of raising the dead (outside of one specific Order, which gets Resurrection, despite True Rez being on the general non-order list), and the class just plain doesn't feel complete. It feels like a draft. The class doesn't feel like it can cover all of its bases at once, so there's always going to be weak points and blind spots and ways to take them out of the running. So I think I'm going to stay with T4. Again, it's about as high as T4 as it's possible to go. It feels really weird to put a full 9th level caster who isn't the Healer in the same tier as the Rogue and the Barbarian rather than the Bard and the Swordsage, but you try building an actual (non-Schroedinger's) Shugenja that's going to fill the "general magic user" role in the party, and you'll see what I mean.

Wu Jen: I'm out of time, so I'll try to return to this one later.

[MHCD]

Apparently I never pressed "Submit Reply". As the thread has grown so much since my planned post, my comments are all redundant at this point, and have been better voiced by others. So here are my proposed numbers:

Wu Jen: Low T1.

Sorcerer: High T2.

Shugenja: I want to say 2 or 3, but not 2.5. This one's hard to judge from paper only, and I have no anecdotal experience here. Abstain. I'll defer to those who have seen or played one.

Shaman: Solid T1.

Death Master: Might be comfortable in 1 or 2, so T1.5.

[Zombulian]

Zaq may have convinced me to change my vote regarding the Shugenja. I'll have to stew for a bit and I'll edit my post later if need be.

[eggynack]

Tier four shugenja is really interestingly low. Anyway, am I crazy to not be overly impressed by the shaman list? I'm not all that convinced it's better than the urban druid or death master lists. Spirit allies are great, but is that enough to peg tier one on? Maybe the domains get you there. Travel is as good as ever, and there are solid options for the others. I don't love their first and second level spells, and the domains don't help that much with that. Third level spells are pretty strong. Really versatile stuff there. Fourths offer spirit ally and polymorph, along with SNA IV, and divination. The divinations on the list seem strong in general, really. Fifths have control winds, scrying, raise dead, and true seeing. You're relying a lot on winds and maybe SNA V for combat here. Rest of the list seems good. So, yeah, really good list, but is it a tier one list? Maybe. I think I'll toss it there for now, but I could see dropping to 1.5 on it.

[Gemini476]

You can have both Haste (Air) and Glitterdust (Earth) on a Shugenja... if you're a Fire or Water Shugenja. Which you maybe should be, to be honest - choosing between Air and Earth is a really hard choice, but choosing between blasting and healing is relatively milder. But if you choose Fire then half your spells are going to be blasting spells (and some standouts, like Greater Glyph of Warding), with your teleportation/illusion/AMFs/walls being reduced to sharing the other half.

But if you choose Fire and give up healing, you also give up Contingency. Really, sixth-level spells are pretty indicative of the whole issue - you choose between Teleport, Antimagic field, Greater Glyph of Warding and Contingency. And that's just a selection! Fire is also your only source of flight at level 3 and has some debuffs in Confusion/Feeblemind, Water has True Seeing and Control Weather and Scrying, Earth has Death Ward and Spell Immunity, Air has a lot of illusions and also Color Spray and Feather Fall.

It's a tricky business, all told.

And to complicate things, there's the orders - did you know that they count for the whole "half your spells need to be of your element" business? Well, they do. So if you choose one that's not filled with spells of your element, it's eating into your allotment of non-element spells with a pre-chosen package.
Also, some of them have spells that are already on the list and thus just lock you into choosing them for that level. Which is just great. Some of them are pretty good, though, so that's a thing.

Also, of course, it's worth peeking into Complete Champion for the small list expansion they got there. It's just four spells, three 2nd-level and one fifth, and who knows what element they belong to, but they're somewhat neat. There's a second-level spell with a no-save sicken and then 1/round (for 1 round/level) save vs. getting nauseated, for instance, although it's [Mind-Affecting]. And the fifth-level one gives the target 5E-style disadvantage on most rolls, but you could probably do better on a failed Will save at that level.


I'm not really sure what tier I'd put them in, to be honest.

[Cosi]

A couple of points here. First i would say that abusing diplomacy dont have anything to do with high OP, its just cheese on the line of abusing candles of invocation. At least in my book.

Sure, I suppose, but isn't hardcore action economy abuse also cheese?


Secondly its something everyone can do, they just need a slightly higher check. Even a Monk can beat someone unconcious, tie them to a tree and hammer them with diplomacy checks until they are his friend naruto style.

Everything is something anyone can do. WBL allows you any capability in the game. The Beguiler is better at it for less resources.


And i just think that the stated need for expanding the Beguilers spell list in itself reveals that its less strong. (the spell list)

You don't need to expand it. If you don't expand it, you have utility, minionmancy, and good offensive spells. But inevitably in discussions of Sorcerers, people talk about expanding their list, and the point should be raised that the Beguiler is flat better at it.


(I'll put in a sidebar here and say that if more casting classes were designed like Shugenja, by which I mean that you really did have to make hard choices like that, I think the game would be a bit better balanced, but such is life.)

Maybe. The Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer are probably a better model. You get a core competency, and then you can also do other stuff if you choose to invest the resources. Also, fixed list casters are nice because they boost the viability of rarely used spells. You won't cast rouse in the majority of sessions, or even the majority of campaigns, but sometimes you will and that will be cool.


There's a big part of me that wants to put them in T4. High T4, scraping the ceiling, but the fact remains that they don't have the flexibility to actually be competent generalists, and their spell list is small enough that they won't usually have the raw power to say "okay, all I have is a hammer, but it's a damn fine hammer." But then I remember that I put the martial adepts in T3, and it feels a little strange to keep a full caster with stuff like Glitterdust and Haste out of the same tier as the initiators (who are mostly just good at hitting stuff, though they're good at hitting stuff in varied ways that's difficult to shut down).

I dunno. The Shugenja is seriously offensively anemic. I think you need to have a solid thing you can do to contribute in combat to get to Three, and to have that plus utility options to get to Two.


You can have both Haste (Air) and Glitterdust (Earth) on a Shugenja... if you're a Fire or Water Shugenja.

It should be noted that the Beguiler and Sorcerer can both have those without jumping through any hoops. Remember that the 6th level Shugenja someone put up had 2nd and 3rd level spell selections that are a strict subset of what the Beguiler gets just for waking up in the morning.

[Zombulian]

Maybe we should recognize in our ratings that different element focuses have profound effects on the overall tier of the class.

[Troacctid]

Different build decisions always affect the power level of a character. I don't think any of the elements is so much better or worse than the others as to shift the class's ranking significantly. I suspect we wouldn't even be able to agree on what the best and worst elements are.

[Zombulian]

Different build decisions always affect the power level of a character. I don't think any of the elements is so much better or worse than the others as to shift the class's ranking significantly. I suspect we wouldn't even be able to agree on what the best and worst elements are.

Ehhhhhh water is pretty damn restrictive and is a healbot focused element without access to the Vigor line. All the other elements have really nice spells that you would regret losing if you banned them.

[Zaq]

You can have both Haste (Air) and Glitterdust (Earth) on a Shugenja... if you're a Fire or Water Shugenja. Which you maybe should be, to be honest - choosing between Air and Earth is a really hard choice, but choosing between blasting and healing is relatively milder. But if you choose Fire then half your spells are going to be blasting spells (and some standouts, like Greater Glyph of Warding), with your teleportation/illusion/AMFs/walls being reduced to sharing the other half.

But if you choose Fire and give up healing, you also give up Contingency. Really, sixth-level spells are pretty indicative of the whole issue - you choose between Teleport, Antimagic field, Greater Glyph of Warding and Contingency. And that's just a selection! Fire is also your only source of flight at level 3 and has some debuffs in Confusion/Feeblemind, Water has True Seeing and Control Weather and Scrying, Earth has Death Ward and Spell Immunity, Air has a lot of illusions and also Color Spray and Feather Fall.

It's a tricky business, all told.

And to complicate things, there's the orders - did you know that they count for the whole "half your spells need to be of your element" business? Well, they do. So if you choose one that's not filled with spells of your element, it's eating into your allotment of non-element spells with a pre-chosen package.
Also, some of them have spells that are already on the list and thus just lock you into choosing them for that level. Which is just great. Some of them are pretty good, though, so that's a thing.

Also, of course, it's worth peeking into Complete Champion for the small list expansion they got there. It's just four spells, three 2nd-level and one fifth, and who knows what element they belong to, but they're somewhat neat. There's a second-level spell with a no-save sicken and then 1/round (for 1 round/level) save vs. getting nauseated, for instance, although it's [Mind-Affecting]. And the fifth-level one gives the target 5E-style disadvantage on most rolls, but you could probably do better on a failed Will save at that level.


I'm not really sure what tier I'd put them in, to be honest.

And don't forget that at the level you get a new spell level (level level level level level), you don't get any non-Order spells that aren't your favored element. Shugenjas are already on the Sorcerer track for learning new spell levels (so one level behind the Wizard and other prepared casters), but then if you want any spells that aren't your favored element, you basically get them a minimum of two character levels behind a Wizard or Cleric. We make fun of Mystic Theurges and other PrCs that sacrifice caster levels because they don't get spells at the earliest possible levels, and we consider it a weakness when a Sorc or another spontaneous caster has to wait for an even character level to learn a new spell level.

I hope that your favored element is actually the one you want to specialize in and not just the one that doesn't ban the two elements you really care about (e.g., specializing in Water because you like Air and Earth versus because you actually like Water). Otherwise, you're way, way behind the curve when it comes to learning non-favored spells at appropriate levels. Oh, and if you want to pick two spells from a non-favored element, I hope you're prepared to wait five levels to learn your second one (taking the starting point from when you get any spells of level X, though I suppose four levels after you learn your first non-favored spell of level X). So if you want, say, both Silence (Air, spell level 2) and Glitterdust (Earth, spell level 2) on one Shugenja, you have to wait until ECL 5 (two full levels behind a Wizard) to get your first one and ECL 9 to get the second one. That's not exactly overwhelming versatility. In fact, that seems incredibly limiting to the point of being nearly useless when compared to the expected challenge progression of the game.

The more I think about it, the more appropriate T4 seems. You do have spells, and you can be good at one or two things, but you can't prepare for a wide variety of situations the way other casters (even other spontaneous casters) can, and you have a major opportunity cost every time you want to learn a new trick. Add in a weaksauce chassis (half BAB, d6, 4 + INT skills from a list that's not awful but that's far from great, one good save, and no armor proficiency despite being a divine caster), a relative lack of offensive oomph (as noted by Cosi), a tendency to put spells at higher levels than they should be (what good does Color Spray do as a level 2 spell?!) and lack of access to many gamebreaking spells (which is good from a balance perspective but bad from a comparative power perspective), and it seems like the Shugenja is about where the Rogue or the Scout is. Their sphere of influence is decent when it gets to work, but it's not very robust, and they can't avoid gaps and blind spots. I'm staying with T4.

[Zombulian]

I've officially been swayed. Post has been edited.

Edit: Also, Eggy I don't think you're crazy for being unimpressed by the Shaman list (especially since you're someone who's immersed themselves in the capabilities of one of the greatest classes that the game has to offer). The first and second level spells are lacking and that's a big bummer especially since level 2 is usually a spell level filled with gold, but even though the base list isn't too expansive, it still has prepared casting access to a pretty solid list that can be filled in with Domains, still has Turning, and still has an Animal Companion (also a native Cha bonus to saves, no need for Prestige Paladin!). It's not the best in tier 1, but I think it has the right to sit there with the big boys.

[DeAnno]

Sure, I suppose, but isn't hardcore action economy abuse also cheese?

From my perspective, Diplomancy is way cheesier, especially compared to things like Fusion that don't require combos to pull off well (looking at Celerity). But not everyone will agree, and I think that's the reason we can't agree on the relative tiering of Sorc and Beguiler. I look at Knowstone UMD and Diplomancy and I roll my eyes, and you're probably similarly rolling your eyes at Rite of Draconic Passage Kobolds and Fusion-Powered alpha strikes that level most of the battlefield. That's ok; honestly the sum of our disagreements only adds up to half a tier so it isn't a big deal.

WRT Shugenja, I looked at them again and tried constructing something that could justify T3 since now people are saying T4. A lot of the late stuff from 6th level spells on suggests such an effort should be Water (if only because it suffers the least in ridiculous level penalties), but then again Water is really terrible at early levels, and I guess you could cast Righteous Might too but what good is that without Divine Power, and maybe you could do some silly things with Control Water but ugh, whatever, Shugenjas. I think I'll change my vote down to 3.5, if only because you can be a pretty reasonable strategic scale supporter for most of the game even if your combat actions are destined to be the most terrible trash ever.

[Troacctid]

I have a hard time seeing the Shugenja as being worse than the Warmage or Healer, or as bad as the Shadowcaster or Truenamer. The class still gets real spells that do real, useful things. Useful enough to keep pace with a Bard.

[eggynack]

I have a hard time seeing the Shugenja as being worse than the Warmage or Healer, or as bad as the Shadowcaster or Truenamer. The class still gets real spells that do real, useful things. Useful enough to keep pace with a Bard.
Yeah, it'd be interesting to see some shugenja to bard list comparisons. My suspicion is that the spell level advantage is enough to make up list quality ground.

[Gemini476]

I know that I talked down Water because lol healing, but it's not exactly devoid of worth. It's got the other part of healing spells - Restoration, Ressurection etc. - and is also home to some (but not all) scrying spells the Shugenja has.

And has some small things like Fog Cloud, Wall of Ice, Control Weather, and Contingency (I thought this was Fire, but misread the line it was on). And Righteous Might, for some reason.

It's just that, well, that's a somewhat complete listing. If you choose it as your element, you'll quickly pick up the few ones you want and then be forced to fill the rest of your slots with chaff.

[lord_khaine]

Im convinced as well, editing my vote to T3 for the Shugenja.


I know that I talked down Water because lol healing, but it's not exactly devoid of worth. It's got the other part of healing spells - Restoration, Ressurection etc. - and is also home to some (but not all) scrying spells the Shugenja has.

Will also point out that as much as combat healing normally suck, then it sucks equally much to be a group without out of combat healing.
And the Shugenja is more or less the only class with access to healing spells in the setting its from.

[Gemini476]

Im convinced as well, editing my vote to T3 for the Shugenja.



Will also point out that as much as combat healing normally suck, then it sucks equally much to be a group without out of combat healing.
And the Shugenja is more or less the only class with access to healing spells in the setting its from.

For reference, for those who aren't aware: Oriental Adventures p.32 bans the bard, cleric, druid, paladin and wizard from Rokugan campaigns. "In other Oriental Adventures campaigns, these classes are usually not available, but check with your Dungeon Master".

Even then it's still not the only class with healing spells, though - the Shaman has all the core healing spells (including Raise Dead, which the Shugenja doesn't get) and is a Cleric-style prepared spellcaster, and while the Sohei don't get most healing spells they do get (Lesser) Restoration.
Also the Adept, but that's the Adept.

But then we're also talking about the Complete Divine has-suggestions-for-including-in-traditional-western-campaign-settings Shugenja, though, who does need to compete with the Cleric and Healer.

[Luccan]

For reference, for those who aren't aware: Oriental Adventures p.32 bans the bard, cleric, druid, paladin and wizard from Rokugan campaigns. "In other Oriental Adventures campaigns, these classes are usually not available, but check with your Dungeon Master".

Even then it's still not the only class with healing spells, though - the Shaman has all the core healing spells (including Raise Dead, which the Shugenja doesn't get) and is a Cleric-style prepared spellcaster, and while the Sohei don't get most healing spells they do get (Lesser) Restoration.
Also the Adept, but that's the Adept.

But then we're also talking about the Complete Divine has-suggestions-for-including-in-traditional-western-campaign-settings Shugenja, though, who does need to compete with the Cleric and Healer.

I was gonna point this out. While in an isolated setting it would be important (I think a few places in OA imply that Rokugan shouldn't use Shamans as PCs and that you should choose between the two in other settings), as a general tiering, we can't assume it will be played only in that campaign world, particularly since it's reprinted in CD. In fact, I'd be more likely to assume Shaman-default in any given OA setting, since I think that's the only place it's printed (with the Dragon update being an exception). But that's not really helpful or on topic.

I'd like to throw in some votes, now that I think I understand how we're doing this:

Death Master: This is the first time I've heard of this class, I think. Pass.

Shaman: The Druid's animal companion, 3 domains and spontaneous conversion to heal spells, turning, martial arts for some reason (Unarmed Strike progression and bonus feats on a caster?), bonus Cha to saves. And then they get full 9th level casting, on a list that, while unfortunately small, is by no means a bad list and there are several excellent spells to pick every day. It's further augmented by the domains as well, which, again, you eventually have three of . T1. Rock on, you crazy Druid/Cleric/Monk.

Shugenja: As the Healer proved, just because you have 9th level spells, doesn't mean you're awesome the whole way there. Or even at the very top. Shugenja suffers because it has the limiting factors of several other classes on it, with none of the reward. They cast as sorcerers do, but unlike sorcerers, who potentially have some of the best spells in the game, Shugenja have a smaller list with greater restrictions. They do know more spells than sorcerers, because of their Order, but it's only one more per level and they are restricted in a manner similar to non-generalist wizards. Except in this case, they lose about a quarter of all spells available to them, and they have to pick more than half their spells known per level from their chosen element. At least they get a +1 to their DCs for it. They also get a class ability that's almost completely useless without a skill check and because it does have one ( and the most useful info has a high DC for low levels), basically is useless. That said, properly built they wouldn't be terrible and their spell list is better than an Adept's. T3.5

Sorcerer: It's unfortunate for Sorcerers that the Spontaneous Druid is currently sitting lowest on the tier 1 totem pole, because they're similar, except Sorcerers don't have class abilities. Even if you argue Spont Druid isn't tier 1, it's better than any similar Sorc, by dint of the fact that both can have incredibly well-picked spells and the Druid can still do more. The best thing Sorcerer has over it is spells per day, but it's not even by much. There's a reason it's the example of tier 2. Also, Spontaneous Druids get to know more spells (because SNA is known free at every level). T2

Wu Jen: Heard of it, but don't know enough to say. Pass.

Edit: @eggynack This might not be the best place to ask this, but it just popped into my head. Since the Spontaneous Druid was deemed unique enough for it's own spot, are you planning on including the noncasting versions of Paladin and Ranger from CW in a thread? They do have some different class abilities and of course, no casting.

[eggynack]

Edit: @eggynack This might not be the best place to ask this, but it just popped into my head. Since the Spontaneous Druid was deemed unique enough for it's own spot, are you planning on including the noncasting versions of Paladin and Ranger from CW in a thread? They do have some different class abilities and of course, no casting.
Maybe. I'd assume they're power reductions, so I suppose it'd depend on where we tier the paladin and ranger.

[Soranar]

Alright, I've been getting curious about this so I decided to do shugenja vs bard

I will include spells of each element that seem like the best choice in the following order

air/earth/fire/water ... universal

Level 1 both class seem equally useful at this level though the bard has a stronger chassis


Shugenja
sleep / magic weapon/ cause fear/ bless

Bard
no level 1 slot, inspire courage


Level 5 Bard is clearly superior

Shugenja
Level 2 spells: minor image, silence / barkskin, hold person/ flame blade, heat metal/ fog cloud, locate object

Bard
Level 1 spells : grease, identify, charm person, unseen servant
Level 2 spells : alter self, invisibility, mirror image

Level 10 at this point both classes are about equal in spellcasting, but again the bard has a better chassis and abilities so a minor win for the bard

Shugenja
Level 3 spells: haste, invisibility, major image/greater magic item, meld into stone/ call lightning/ remove curse... dispel magic, summon nature's ally (elementals only). glyphs of warding
Level 4 spells: air walk, discern lies/ death ward, dismissal, dimensional anchor/ wall of fire/ restoration, control water
Level 5 spells: control winds, greater invisibility,persisten image/ iron wall, wall of stone, spell resistance/ confusion, feeblemind, dragon breath/ wall of ice, righteous might, scrying... commune with nature, SNA (elementals only)

Bard

Level 3 spells: charm monster, deep slumber, haste, summon monster 3, glibness, slow
Level 4 spells: dimension door, dominate person, freedom of movement, hold monster,


Level 16 The Shugenja is finally overtaking the bard, if barely

Shugenja

Level 6 spells: cloudkill, teleport, permanent image/ AMF, stoneskin/ greater glyph of warding/ contingency, heal, control weather, true seeing... dispel magic greater SNA 6 (large elementals only)
Level 7 spells: Programmed image, teleport object/ disistegrate, statue/ firestorm/ greater restoration, greater scrying, ressurection... SNA 7 (huge elementals only)
Level 8 spells: screen, greater teleport/ binding/ incendiary cloud/ discern location, mass heal, regenerate... SNA 8 (greater elemental only)

Bard

Level 5 spells: greater dispel magic, greater heroism , shadow walk
Level 6 spells: animate object, irresistible dance, greater scrying


So I'm changing my vote to tier 3... and a weak one at that (a bard is superior to this class until level 15+)

-the shugenja spells are even more problematic than I initially thought (because of the delayed spellcasting on top of the higher level spells and weak spell choices)
-the fire element is downright useless, meaning anyone who picks it as a primary element becomes tier 4 since they have to waste half their spells knowns on it. Trying to make a blaster with a shugenja is a very weak option.
-air and water seem to be clear winners for me, earth is decent but water has a lot of key spells that you really need to stay versatile. Same goes for air, you really need air spells to have something worthwhile to do at most levels.
-the summon nature's ally usefulness is severely diminished by being stuck with elementals , you can't use it to supplement your spellcasting like a druid can but a meatshield is better than nothing

[Kurald Galain]

Alright, I've been getting curious about this so I decided to do shugenja vs bard
That's a good analysis, we need more of those.

Based on that, I'm changing my shugy vote to tier three.

[eggynack]

So, I think Zaq has officially and likely permanently won the award for most votes changed. It's like that single post created a wave of mind altering. Crazy stuff. Speaking of, it's about results time, which honestly mostly just means that tomorrow I'll be starting up a new thread. I'm thinking I'll do the warlock/truenamer/DFA thread, maybe with a couple of other things tossed in. I could see putting binder in there. Actually, if I ditch the DFA, I could do a tome of magic plus warlock deal, call it dark magic whatevers. Warlock/truenamer/DFA/binder/maybe shadowcaster sounds decent though, and it looks like the whole thing fits if I get rid of the "and" again. This one is pretty loose, so it's another one that's more on the open to suggestions side.

Anyway, I think I've gotten off topic. I didn't have much in the way of guesses on how this one would turn out. I assumed sorcerer tier two, which happened, and death master on the border, which landed more or less exactly (frigging 1.55, which I love, as a near precise upper border for tier two). Shugenja I had no opinion on, but highish three seems reasonable. Shaman, I really wish we had more votes on, but I can't begrudge anyone for not tiering it. I was super hesitant myself. I'd expect the votes to likely keep it at one though, so that's fine. Wu jen, I still don't know much about, but I'm excited by where it landed. I like how tier one is getting more open, y'know? It's always felt like you had these really meaty class filled tiers at the bottom half, from three to five (with six as too many standard deviations away to ever have much stuff), and tier one/two was this strange small size nobility. Now those two tiers are getting a lot of extra classes, both from the original set and new, and the notion of a "big six" seems less true than it has in the past. It's a thing I appreciate.

Might have gotten off topic again. This is a surprisingly dense partial wrap up post (though, as usual, the thread remains open longer term). Lots to talk about. Long story short, I'ma add some tier numbers. Maybe do that suggestion of putting the main thread's list in alphabetical order. Not sure I'll do it right now, but it seems like the way to go when I'm less tired.

[Rhyltran]

So, I think Zaq has officially and likely permanently won the award for most votes changed. It's like that single post created a wave of mind altering. Crazy stuff. Speaking of, it's about results time, which honestly mostly just means that tomorrow I'll be starting up a new thread. I'm thinking I'll do the warlock/truenamer/DFA thread, maybe with a couple of other things tossed in. I could see putting binder in there. Actually, if I ditch the DFA, I could do a tome of magic plus warlock deal, call it dark magic whatevers. Warlock/truenamer/DFA/binder/maybe shadowcaster sounds decent though, and it looks like the whole thing fits if I get rid of the "and" again. This one is pretty loose, so it's another one that's more on the open to suggestions side.

Anyway, I think I've gotten off topic. I didn't have much in the way of guesses on how this one would turn out. I assumed sorcerer tier two, which happened, and death master on the border, which landed more or less exactly (frigging 1.55, which I love, as a near precise upper border for tier two). Shugenja I had no opinion on, but highish three seems reasonable. Shaman, I really wish we had more votes on, but I can't begrudge anyone for not tiering it. I was super hesitant myself. I'd expect the votes to likely keep it at one though, so that's fine. Wu jen, I still don't know much about, but I'm excited by where it landed. I like how tier one is getting more open, y'know? It's always felt like you had these really meaty class filled tiers at the bottom half, from three to five (with six as too many standard deviations away to ever have much stuff), and tier one/two was this strange small size nobility. Now those two tiers are getting a lot of extra classes, both from the original set and new, and the notion of a "big six" seems less true than it has in the past. It's a thing I appreciate.

Might have gotten off topic again. This is a surprisingly dense partial wrap up post (though, as usual, the thread remains open longer term). Lots to talk about. Long story short, I'ma add some tier numbers. Maybe do that suggestion of putting the main thread's list in alphabetical order. Not sure I'll do it right now, but it seems like the way to go when I'm less tired.

I'm not the best at math but wouldn't a 1.55 be a Tier 1? I mean, it hasn't yet reached 2.0. I mean, I assumed 1.5 would mean Halfway between 1.0 and 2.0. In the middle of tier 1 and 2. 1.55 would be slightly closer to the 2.0 line but not quite there. So 1.90 would be borderline 2.0.

Most of us who vote a class as Tier 1.5 are doing so under the belief that 1.5 means halfway bewteen 1 and 2. If 1.5 means "Anything slightly higher is a 2." for instance, I don't think that's what we're trying to convey.

[Zombulian]

So, I think Zaq has officially and likely permanently won the award for most votes changed.

You're probably right. I think for myself - I dunno about the other playgrounders - his reputation is fairly well established as a reasonable judge of weak classes. I've used his Truenamer Handbook countless times, if someone is going to find something worthwhile in an ostensibly terrible class, it'll be him.
His lack of faith in the Shugenja is a clear red flag.

[eggynack]

I'm not the best at math but wouldn't a 1.55 be a Tier 1? I mean, it hasn't yet reached 2.0. I mean, I assumed 1.5 would mean Halfway between 1.0 and 2.0. In the middle of tier 1 and 2. 1.55 would be slightly closer to the 2.0 line but not quite there. So 1.90 would be borderline 2.0.

Most of us who vote a class as Tier 1.5 are doing so under the belief that 1.5 means halfway bewteen 1 and 2. If 1.5 means "Anything slightly higher is a 2." for instance, I don't think that's what we're trying to convey.
I don't see why 1.55 would be tier one. As you note, it's closer to two than it is to one. We could arguably codify the half-tiers, and round to that, but that seems like an odd construct. This just seems like straightforward rounding, y'know? A tier 1.5 vote means what it means. If the current mean is closer to one, then the vote pulls it a bit closer to two, and if the mean is closer to two, then it gets pulled towards one. It's a moderating force between the opposing perspectives. 1.5 does mean anything slightly higher is a two, but it also means anything slightly lower is a one.

You're probably right. I think for myself - I dunno about the other playgrounders - his reputation is fairly well established as a reasonable judge of weak classes. I've used his Truenamer Handbook countless times, if someone is going to find something worthwhile in an ostensibly terrible class, it'll be him.
His lack of faith in the Shugenja is a clear red flag.
Another part of it might have been the simple fact that it was a position basically entirely unstated. I hadn't even considered four as an option until that post, but the possibility of it could make three seem more logical.

[Rhyltran]

I don't see why 1.55 would be tier one. As you note, it's closer to two than it is to one. We could arguably codify the half-tiers, and round to that, but that seems like an odd construct. This just seems like straightforward rounding, y'know? A tier 1.5 vote means what it means. If the current mean is closer to one, then the vote pulls it a bit closer to two, and if the mean is closer to two, then it gets pulled towards one. It's a moderating force between the opposing perspectives. 1.5 does mean anything slightly higher is a two, but it also means anything slightly lower is a one.

I wasn't aware that we were doing rounding. I don't see the point in using decimals at all if we're going to be rounding. As I mentioned, most of us voting 1.5 are doing so under the opinion that 1.5 is halfway between 1 and 2. Yes 1.55 is closer to 2 than one. However, I assumed 1.9 for example would be "Borderline tier 2." since.. well, it isn't at 2 yet. I'm aware now that in your system 1.4 would be "Low tier 1." but that seems odd when it, by the decimal, is literally near the halfway point. In your system 1.5 is not halfway between the two because 1.55 is a 2 due to rounding.

Likewise, you can even change up your tiers. "1.7" for instance would be "Tier 2." but someone can make the argument "Without rounding it's still technically tier 1. It's just a low tier 1." My problem with this goes beyond what is stated as well. If 1.55 is high tier 2. Then is a straight tier 2 vote a mid tier 2?

Honestly I won't lie. I see the problem in what I'm saying as well. Based on this if we take the decimals and say.. 1.9 being borderline 2 and not being 2 until it hits 2.0, we end up with the problem where no class hits 6 or only commoner hits 6. I guess I just prefer the idea of tallying up the total votes but that ship sailed long ago.

[eggynack]

I wasn't aware that we were doing rounding. I don't see the point in using decimals at all if we're going to be rounding. As I mentioned, most of us voting 1.5 are doing so under the opinion that 1.5 is halfway between 1 and 2. Yes 1.55 is closer to 2 than one. However, I assumed 1.9 for example would be "Borderline tier 2." since.. well, it isn't at 2 yet. I'm aware now that in your system 1.4 would be "Low tier 1." but that seems odd when it, by the decimal, is literally near the halfway point. In your system 1.5 is not halfway between the two because 1.55 is a 2 due to rounding.

Likewise, you can even change up your tiers. "1.7" for instance would be "Tier 2." but someone can make the argument "Without rounding it's still technically tier 1. It's just a low tier 1." My problem with this goes beyond what is stated as well. If 1.55 is high tier 2. Then is a straight tier 2 vote a mid tier 2?
I'm not rounding the votes themselves, if that's what you mean. I'm just rounding the result. 1.9 is actually above average tier two. 2.1 would be a bit below average tier two. 2.4 would be right on the borderline, and 2.5 would be the exact border where you're not even precisely either tier. Tier two is already perfectly average and totally normal tier two. Why would 1.9, which is .1 points better, be on the borderline? 1.5 is halfway between tier one and tier two, because while 1.55 rounds to 2, 1.45 rounds to 1. This all seems pretty straightforward to me. It's not like I'm forcing folks to vote fractionally, or even particularly advocating it. It's something people can do if they want to do it. People were like, "I have big problems with this system primarily stemming from the fact that you can't vote fractionally," and I said, "Who said you couldn't? People have been doing that all along." So such is the nature of the thread. I personally use the tier when, indeed, I think the class is between the two tiers. Knowing everything about the system as it stands, I am comfortable using the tier for that purpose. Don't see why anyone wouldn't be.

Edit: Basically, tier one is 1-1.49, tier two is 1.51 to 2.49, three is 2.51 to 3.49, and so on. Your votes should probably reflect that fact. Things landing right on the line will get a 1.5 or 2.5 or whatever. But, y'know, worst comes to worst, just voting in accordance with what tier you think things are should get you about where you want to be.

[Rhyltran]

I'm not rounding the votes themselves, if that's what you mean. I'm just rounding the result. 1.9 is actually above average tier two. 2.1 would be a bit below average tier two. 2.4 would be right on the borderline, and 2.5 would be the exact border where you're not even precisely either tier. Tier two is already perfectly average and totally normal tier two. Why would 1.9, which is .1 points better, be on the borderline? 1.5 is halfway between tier one and tier two, because while 1.55 rounds to 2, 1.45 rounds to 1. This all seems pretty straightforward to me. It's not like I'm forcing folks to vote fractionally, or even particularly advocating it. It's something people can do if they want to do it. People were like, "I have big problems with this system primarily stemming from the fact that you can't vote fractionally," and I said, "Who said you couldn't? People have been doing that all along." So such is the nature of the thread. I personally use the tier when, indeed, I think the class is between the two tiers. Knowing everything about the system as it stands, I am comfortable using the tier for that purpose. Don't see why anyone wouldn't be.

Edit: Basically, tier one is 1-1.49, tier two is 1.51 to 2.49, three is 2.51 to 3.49, and so on. Your votes should probably reflect that fact. Things landing right on the line will get a 1.5 or 2.5 or whatever. But, y'know, worst comes to worst, just voting in accordance with what tier you think things are should get you about where you want to be.


As mentioned, I see what you're doing but when most people say "1.5" they're not really telling you "Basically Tier 2." most people use .5 as a way of communicating "Half way." as typically 1.5 would be the halfway decimal to 2. A good example is right now we're discussing D&D 3.5 which is an improved version of D&D 3rd edition. Some people call Pathfinder 3.75. This isn't them saying "Pathfinder is 4th edition." but a later version of 3.5 while still being a variation of 3rd edition.

[eggynack]

As mentioned, I see what you're doing but when most people say "1.5" they're not really telling you "Basically Tier 2." most people use .5 as a way of communicating "Half way." as typically 1.5 would be the halfway decimal to 2. A good example is right now we're discussing D&D 3.5 which is an improved version of D&D 3rd edition. Some people call Pathfinder 3.75. This isn't them saying "Pathfinder is 4th edition." but a later version of 3.5 while still being a variation of 3rd edition.
1.5 doesn't mean basically tier two. It means halfway. Any slightest amount over that gets you to tier one, and any slightest amount below it gets you to tier two. The votes don't get rounded. Just the end mean result does.

[Cosi]

Again, this is a function of things getting truncated at the top. With a Tier Two class some people will vote 2.5, some people will vote 3, some people will vote 1.5, and so on, so the average ends up near 2. But with a Tier One class, there can't be .5s to drag things back up.

[Rhyltran]

Again, this is a function of things getting truncated at the top. With a Tier Two class some people will vote 2.5, some people will vote 3, some people will vote 1.5, and so on, so the average ends up near 2. But with a Tier One class, there can't be .5s to drag things back up.

I'm aware. I get it in all honesty. I just didn't think about that when doing my voting (though, in retrospect, I should have.), unless there was a theoretical tier 0 (that no one would actually expect anything to hit.) you're absolutely correct. Again, I'm aware why Eggy's method works the way it does, especially if it allows people to vote utilizing decimals. However, I will say..


1.5 doesn't mean basically tier two. It means halfway. Any slightest amount over that gets you to tier one, and any slightest amount below it gets you to tier two. The votes don't get rounded. Just the end mean result does.

That's not my definition of halfway. Let's take a bottle of water. Let's say when the bottle is full it contains a Liter of water. Half a Liter would be .50. If I drink some of that water. Let's say .10 we now have .40 liters of water. The bottle is not empty. If we add to the water we have .60 liters of water. We don't have 1 liter. .50 is literally half and you don't get empty or full by moving one way or the other. Another example. Let's assume we have 1.5 liters of water. If I add to the liter of water to get 1.6 we don't have two liters of water. If I add some more we're at 1.7 and we still don't have two liters of water. You could make the argument we're closer to two liters of water than 1 liter of water but to claim that we're at two liters of water is incorrect.

Your math and your data claims that 1.5 is literally on the border. A little over 1.5 and we get two liters of water. A little under 1.5 liters of water and we have 1 liter of water. To me 1.5 is halfway between 1 liter of water and two liters of water. We, quit literally, have 1 and a half liters of water. So to me 1.5 doesn't mean we're right at the edge of one and two. It means we're halfway between one and two. Adding a little extra water does not bring us to two. It brings us to 1.6. We don't hit two until we hit two. Just like when it comes to patches we're not at the new expansion or edition until we hit 2.0. 3.9 is still 3rd edition. Not 4th but we are on the cusp of a new edition. Next update will probably be the next edition unless we hit a 3.9.1.

Once again. I know why it's not like this. I'm not telling you to change your whole system. I'm merely bringing something together for those who may not be aware of the math involved (Like I was.). As my understanding of what 1.5 meant is different than what your understanding of 1.5. Whereas with the way you work things my understanding of 1.5 would probably be more accurately represented as 1.25.

[eggynack]

Again, this is a function of things getting truncated at the top. With a Tier Two class some people will vote 2.5, some people will vote 3, some people will vote 1.5, and so on, so the average ends up near 2. But with a Tier One class, there can't be .5s to drag things back up.
I don't know that that's precisely the issue that Rhyltran is having, but yeah, it's an issue. I might should allow votes up to tier .5. Kinda doubt that death master would get that kinda vote though, or anything above 1, so it's not necessarily an issue in this case. First class where I think it could be relevant is psion. I could see that class getting votes anywhere from .5 to 2, depending on the voter.

[Zombulian]

Wait who decided we can't rate a class 0 or 0.5?

[Cosi]

Wait who decided we can't rate a class 0 or 0.5?

Is there a reason to? If you had a Tier Zero, what would be the difference between that and what is now Tier One? Also, you would just get the same effect. The best suggestion for solving this is probably to allow votes up to 0.5 (the theoretical cap on what would be Tier One).

[eggynack]

Wait who decided we can't rate a class 0 or 0.5?
It's not a thing people have done, and I'd question it if it happened. I think someone gave a tier below six once, and I put it in as a six. The tier system ranges from 1 to 6. .5 doesn't precisely mean anything. That region is sometimes posited as a thing, but it all seems kinda irrelevant once you're already at least tier one. I don't think zero is particularly reasonable. It's just not a tier anything is, really, so if someone gives that tier, they're kinda giving the wrong tier, y'know? But .5 could make sense, and could effectively convey "high one". I'd likely plug in stuff between .5 and 6.5, on the basis of what Cosi was saying. You still don't get the pull of ratings of whole different tiers, but I think that's just inevitable.

[Rhyltran]

I don't know that that's precisely the issue that Rhyltran is having, but yeah, it's an issue. I might should allow votes up to tier .5. Kinda doubt that death master would get that kinda vote though, or anything above 1, so it's not necessarily an issue in this case. First class where I think it could be relevant is psion. I could see that class getting votes anywhere from .5 to 2, depending on the voter.

At this point it's honestly not worth it. Your system is alright as is. I'm not condemning it or going "You tricked me!" Just pointing something out. Going back and doing a re-count wouldn't be very productive if in the end we got similar results (which honestly, we probably would.) Again, as mentioned, just an observation.

[eggynack]

At this point it's honestly not worth it. Your system is alright as is. I'm not condemning it or going "You tricked me!" Just pointing something out. Going back and doing a re-count wouldn't be very productive if in the end we got similar results (which honestly, we probably would.) Again, as mentioned, just an observation.
I mean, you're not really asking for a recount. All that would be required would be, y'know, not rounding. As I've noted, your issue is what I'm doing with the output, not anything having to do with the inputs. The solution would thus be giving each class its own tier defined by its specific mean out to a couple of significant figures. Or list that out in the first place. I'm unlikely to do so though. Part of the whole point of tiering is aggregating classes into kinda broad power swaths. There are some mitigating factors for that though. When all is said and done, I'm very likely going to be ordering the classes in the finished product by tier, giving specific mention to classes closest to the mid-point such that a class being better or worse than it is somewhat decisive evidence of its position. Moreover, whatever else happens, the spreadsheet will always be there (I'd assume, cause I certainly ain't gonna delete it), so the underlying measure is kinda 1.55 rather than straight up two. For the record, while I don't round the inputs for the purposes of mean or median, I do round to the nearest .5 for mode, so that votes that don't fall on a number or halfway between get counted somewhat.

[Rhyltran]

I mean, you're not really asking for a recount. All that would be required would be, y'know, not rounding. As I've noted, your issue is what I'm doing with the output, not anything having to do with the inputs. The solution would thus be giving each class its own tier defined by its specific mean out to a couple of significant figures. Or list that out in the first place. I'm unlikely to do so though. Part of the whole point of tiering is aggregating classes into kinda broad power swaths. There are some mitigating factors for that though. When all is said and done, I'm very likely going to be ordering the classes in the finished product by tier, giving specific mention to classes closest to the mid-point such that a class being better or worse than it is somewhat decisive evidence of its position. Moreover, whatever else happens, the spreadsheet will always be there (I'd assume, cause I certainly ain't gonna delete it), so the underlying measure is kinda 1.55 rather than straight up two. For the record, while I don't round the inputs for the purposes of mean or median, I do round to the nearest .5 for mode, so that votes that don't fall on a number or halfway between get counted somewhat.

I really like the bolded and yeah I do think you're definitely giving a fair emphasis but something like the bolded is really cool and useful. Especially for someone knowing "This class is borderline tier 2. So if you're trying to stick with 3-4 classes you might want to keep an eye here." Or also "This class might be Tier 5 but it's also really really close to the Tier 4 position. These classes, with the right players, will function fine in a Tier 3-4 game." Etc.

[Florian]

Alright, I've been getting curious about this so I decided to do shugenja vs bard

Interestingly enough, Shugenja is one of those cases where people get a knee-jerk reaction due to ninth level spells, so it must be in a higher tier, right? Now the tiers tend to be based on versatility, which the Shugenja doesn´t really offer.

[Rhyltran]

Interestingly enough, Shugenja is one of those cases where people get a knee-jerk reaction due to ninth level spells, so it must be in a higher tier, right? Now the tiers tend to be based on versatility, which the Shugenja doesn´t really offer.

Versatility is important but not as much as Jaron's system. Power is important as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sorcerer: Tier 1. There, I said it. People on this board somehow think spont. druid is tier 1 despite a VASTLY worse spell list and no where near as much splat love and lacking the charisma based synergy (look at the X stat to Y thread). Sorcerer has actually the best spell list in the game aside from Archivist (since it can pull spells from many lists) thanks to adding to the already OP wizard list with broken draconic-themed spells like Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Between bloodline feats, rune staves, UMD (buy it cross-class if needed, you have the cha to pull it off), scrolls, wands, etc... a sorcerer can cover handily for "not knowing many spells." Far better than the spont. druid can.

Death Master: Low tier 2, I guess...

Shugenja: Also low tier 2.

Shaman: Low tier 1

Wu Jen: High tier 2. Prepared caster, but the list is pretty limited and it's harder to expand beyond it than for some other classes.

[eggynack]

Sorcerer: Tier 1. There, I said it. People on this board somehow think spont. druid is tier 1 despite a VASTLY worse spell list and no where near as much splat love and lacking the charisma based synergy (look at the X stat to Y thread). Sorcerer has actually the best spell list in the game aside from Archivist (since it can pull spells from many lists) thanks to adding to the already OP wizard list with broken draconic-themed spells like Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Between bloodline feats, rune staves, UMD (buy it cross-class if needed, you have the cha to pull it off), scrolls, wands, etc... a sorcerer can cover handily for "not knowing many spells." Far better than the spont. druid can.

Actually responded to this one already, back when you said it in the spontaneous druid thread.


I think that these things are a lot more relevant to tiering than you given them credit for. Tossing them into this weird "Tier three" bin and disregarding it does them a disservice. Wild shape is more than some arbitrary tier three object. It's every movement mode there is, in high quality form, a big stat boost (either strength or dexterity, depending on need), a bunch of useful attack modes and other abilities if you use enhance, and an incredibly potent optimization path, as was noted when we were talking about the wild shape ranger. Usually, when you ask, "How does a druid do this thing?" the answer is clearly spells. The rest of the time though, which is a surprising amount of the time, the answer is wild shape. The animal companion, meanwhile, is what makes the druid and spontaneous druid alike at the top of the game in the early levels, before spells take over. Also, spontaneous druids keep up the spontaneous SNA thing in a sense, and that's a big edge, especially when they get that spell before the sorcerer gets anything of that level.

Take all these things together, and I think the spontaneous druid may well beat the sorcerer. Could be mistaken, and that doubt is why I stuck them in two initially, but there's a hell of a lot of power you're ignoring by saying the druid is just its casting. Yes, a druid would still be tier one without these class features, but the class features account for a lot of the druid's height in the tier. They're relevant even in the context of high tier analysis. I haven't even gone into all the things implied by the claim that wild shape offers crazy optimization material. There's a ton of it. The idea that stuff like an extra standard action every round, or invisibility plus immunity to magic, or always on true seeing, or a dimension door every round which allows for casting in the same round, can't boost a class' tier at this level, strikes me as ridiculous.

"These things," refers to non-casting druid features, which I think needs to be clarified cause that phrasing doesn't fit the context of this new post I'm responding to.

[Soranar]

I'm sorry but you just argued how a sorcerer is tier 2.

The sorcerer needs splatbooks and a lot of optimization (runestaves, sorcerer only spells, etc) to get over how few spells he has access to.

The spontanious druid needs nothing to be effective. Even the basic wildshapes and animal companions are plenty powerful. His spell list is very strong and he gets to wear amor, has 2 good saves, x4 skillpoints per level, a good skill list,d8 hitpoints and 3/4 BAB.

In what world is that inferior to a sorcerer who gets d4 hitpoints, x2 skillpoints with a weak BAB and 1 good save? You get your only class feature at level 1, without prestige classes a sorcerer is seriously gimped.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Sorcerer: Tier 1. There, I said it. People on this board somehow think spont. druid is tier 1 despite a VASTLY worse spell list and no where near as much splat love and lacking the charisma based synergy (look at the X stat to Y thread). Sorcerer has actually the best spell list in the game aside from Archivist (since it can pull spells from many lists) thanks to adding to the already OP wizard list with broken draconic-themed spells like Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Between bloodline feats, rune staves, UMD (buy it cross-class if needed, you have the cha to pull it off), scrolls, wands, etc... a sorcerer can cover handily for "not knowing many spells." Far better than the spont. druid can.
.

Also, Acess to Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion. Best Sorcerer Spell ever.
Sorcerer can take Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF and have acess to Use Magic Device.
The Sorcerer can reshape all Sorcerer Spell know by duplicating Pyschic Reformation via Limited Wish with a single standard action.

Tier 1.

[Beheld]

Also, Acess to Arcane Fusion/Greater Arcane Fusion. Best Sorcerer Spell ever.
Sorcerer can take Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF and have acess to Use Magic Device.
The Sorcerer can reshape all Sorcerer Spell know by duplicating Pyschic Reformation via Limited Wish with a single standard action.

Tier 1.

Well this was the least surprising reveal ever.

[eggynack]

Well this was the least surprising reveal ever.
I am of mixed surprise levels. On the one hand, a lot of their syntax and such was closely matching that of Drako, so I'm not all that surprised. On the other, they managed to get all the way to halfling without being more or less explicit, and that's kinda new, and thus surprising.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Well this was the least surprising reveal ever.

? :smallconfused:

[Beheld]

To briefly and foolishly address the merits of the argument.

Something you can only do by using 100% of your 7th level spells known at level 14, and can never do at all at levels 1-13 probably shouldn't be considered very highly when judging tiers. I mean, a Sorcerer could already have 50 Glabrezu's fighting all his battles for him as of level 12, so some trick that comes online at level 14 just isn't that meaningful.

[lord_khaine]

The sorcerer needs splatbooks and a lot of optimization (runestaves, sorcerer only spells, etc) to get over how few spells he has access to.

Yeah.. and of those Runestaves really dont offer to much. They all have a rather crappy spell selection and costs a lot.


Something you can only do by using 100% of your 7th level spells known at level 14, and can never do at all at levels 1-13 probably shouldn't be considered very highly when judging tiers. I mean, a Sorcerer could already have 50 Glabrezu's fighting all his battles for him as of level 12, so some trick that comes online at level 14 just isn't that meaningful.

I agree with this. It also seems like its being glossed over that this trick eats at least 300 xp, or 50 XP per level.
And that since its actually a lower level psionic power, then this is something everyone can do. A psion can use it to reselect his powers without any shenanigans, and much cheaper xp wise. A wizard can use it to reselect his spells. An Ardent can get a lot out of it by both switching feats and mantels.

But even a fighter/Rogue/Ranger can use a power stone of it to change their feats and combat style.

So to but things short, since this is not an exclusive trick to a sorcerer, and since psions can do this from level 7, while Sorcerers have to wait until level 13, then it should not move sorcerer in tier any more than the psion.

[Thurbane]

Question about the Shaman; specficially, the Animal Companion class feature (sorry in advance if this has already been covered).

The "official" 3.5 update of the Shaman in Dragon 318 only has changes to it's unarmed strike damage progression, and list of bonus feats.

IIRC, it uses (almost?) identical wording to the 3.0 Druid version of the Animal Companion class feature.

In a 3.5 game, is a safe assumption that the OA Shaman follows the same rules for an Animal Companion as a 3.5 Druid?

[Zombulian]

Question about the Shaman; specficially, the Animal Companion class feature (sorry in advance if this has already been covered).

The "official" 3.5 update of the Shaman in Dragon 318 only has changes to it's unarmed strike damage progression, and list of bonus feats.

IIRC, it uses (almost?) identical wording to the 3.0 Druid version of the Animal Companion class feature.

In a 3.5 game, is a safe assumption that the OA Shaman follows the same rules for an Animal Companion as a 3.5 Druid?

That's the general assumption, yeah. I swear Eggy said something about it earlier in the thread but I can't find it.

[eggynack]

That's the general assumption, yeah. I swear Eggy said something about it earlier in the thread but I can't find it.
Don't think I did, mostly cause I'm not entirely sure. I figure standard animal companion is how it'd play in basically all games, but it seemingly operates like not-that by RAW. My inclination is towards just making it an animal companion, and also separately towards not particularly caring. On the latter point, that's because the class has literally no votes below tier one. Some of that could be predicated on the animal companion, but I wouldn't necessarily expect so smooth a spread just because of the lack of animal companion. It's a great ability, but I can't imagine it alone representing even a one to 1.5 shift unless the class was super close to the line before that.

[Zombulian]

Question about the Shaman; specficially, the Animal Companion class feature (sorry in advance if this has already been covered).

The "official" 3.5 update of the Shaman in Dragon 318 only has changes to it's unarmed strike damage progression, and list of bonus feats.

IIRC, it uses (almost?) identical wording to the 3.0 Druid version of the Animal Companion class feature.

In a 3.5 game, is a safe assumption that the OA Shaman follows the same rules for an Animal Companion as a 3.5 Druid?


Don't think I did, mostly cause I'm not entirely sure. I figure standard animal companion is how it'd play in basically all games, but it seemingly operates like not-that by RAW. My inclination is towards just making it an animal companion, and also separately towards not particularly caring. On the latter point, that's because the class has literally no votes below tier one. Some of that could be predicated on the animal companion, but I wouldn't necessarily expect so smooth a spread just because of the lack of animal companion. It's a great ability, but I can't imagine it alone representing even a one to 1.5 shift unless the class was super close to the line before that.

Yknow I just realized that I was thinking of Eggs, the author of the Shaman Handbook, because he notes that he is working under the assumption that the AC is just like a 3.5 Druid AC for the purposes of the rest of the handbook.

[Thurbane]

Don't think I did, mostly cause I'm not entirely sure. I figure standard animal companion is how it'd play in basically all games, but it seemingly operates like not-that by RAW. My inclination is towards just making it an animal companion, and also separately towards not particularly caring. On the latter point, that's because the class has literally no votes below tier one. Some of that could be predicated on the animal companion, but I wouldn't necessarily expect so smooth a spread just because of the lack of animal companion. It's a great ability, but I can't imagine it alone representing even a one to 1.5 shift unless the class was super close to the line before that.

Fair enough. I was mainly asking for using the class in my game, rather than defining it's tier - I thought this was as good a place as any to ask the question.