Starter Spells - UA 3rd April 2017

[8wGremlin]

Link to PDF http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf

[DracoKnight]

Link to PDF http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf

There's already a thread for this :smallwink:

[Coffee_Dragon]

There's already a thread for this :smallwink:

The problem with those threads is that they go on for six pages before the article goes up, and when it finally does, it often takes a good while for links to be edited into the first post.

[8wGremlin]

There's already a thread for this :smallwink:

Sorry didn't realise that "Today's Unearthed Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520268-Today-s-Unearthed-Arcana)" actually meant - today's as in the 3rd April 2017
or another day's unearthed arcana or that it was about Starter spells, how silly.

[DracoKnight]

Sorry didn't realise that "Today's Unearthed Arcana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520268-Today-s-Unearthed-Arcana)" actually meant - today's as in the 3rd April 2017
or another day's unearthed arcana or that it was about Starter spells, how silly.

If it were a thread I'd started that'd've been clarified. Sorry for annoying you.

[Tanarii]

Really not liking the Atonement aspect of the Ceremony Spell. Given that most of the time a PC's Alignment changes in 5e, it will be because the player chose the new Alignment as far more appropriate to how they think the character should be acting. In other words, it's generally an unnecessary spell. If a player wants to change the Alignment back to what it used to be, they usually can.

There are a few 'forced' and not reversible alignment changes but they're far and few between. The big ones I can think of are the optional rules for the Outer Planes environmental effects.

[DracoKnight]

Really not liking the Atonement aspect of the Ceremony Spell. Given that most of the time a PC's Alignment changes in 5e, it will be because the player chose the new Alignment as far more appropriate to how they think the character should be acting. In other words, it's generally an unnecessary spell. If a player wants to change the Alignment back to what it used to be, they usually can.

There are a few 'forced' and not reversible alignment changes but they're far and few between. The big ones I can think of are the optional rules for the Outer Planes environmental effects.

Also Lycanthropy. Congrats, your werewolf paladin can be Lawful Good again.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Some artefacts and sentient magic items do this, or try to.

[Temperjoke]

Forced alignment change is also one of the things that can happen traveling the various planes, it's an optional rule.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think lycanthropy also.

[Pex]

I don't see the point in casting Virtue.

My initial reaction is Zephyr Strike is too powerful for a 1st level spell. In Pathfinder, Grace does the same thing except it's 2nd level, lasts only the one round, and provides no benefit to attacking. Never mind the moving, but Advantage on all your first attacks of the round sounds like a big deal for just a 1st level spell.

[Gignere]

I don't see the point in casting Virtue.

My initial reaction is Zephyr Strike is too powerful for a 1st level spell. In Pathfinder, Grace does the same thing except it's 2nd level, lasts only the one round, and provides no benefit to attacking. Never mind the moving, but Advantage on all your first attacks of the round sounds like a big deal for just a 1st level spell.

I agree but I think it might be intended to work more like a smite spell and they just didn't add that language to it. It should end after you make the attack.

[Tanarii]

Snare getting a Giant sounds like a lot of fun. Or a massive Dragon.

Does Toll the Dead work in an area of Silence? It doesn't specify the target must be able to hear the bells, unlike Unearthly Choir.


I don't see the point in casting Virtue.It's in the same category as Blade Ward. Very niche. But not close to useless, unlike (say) True Strike.


My initial reaction is Zephyr Strike is too powerful for a 1st level spell. In Pathfinder, Grace does the same thing except it's 2nd level, lasts only the one round, and provides no benefit to attacking. Never mind the moving, but Advantage on all your first attacks of the round sounds like a big deal for just a 1st level spell.My impression was that the advantage and speed bonus only applies to your first attack on your turn within the duration of the spell. In other words, it's like Ensnaring Strike or the Smites, except it has the added benefit of not provoking OAs until the round you choose to strike.

[MrStabby]

Really not liking the Atonement aspect of the Ceremony Spell. Given that most of the time a PC's Alignment changes in 5e, it will be because the player chose the new Alignment as far more appropriate to how they think the character should be acting. In other words, it's generally an unnecessary spell. If a player wants to change the Alignment back to what it used to be, they usually can.

There are a few 'forced' and not reversible alignment changes but they're far and few between. The big ones I can think of are the optional rules for the Outer Planes environmental effects.

I don't mind. It's a niche spell but the way clerics know spells it just lets them do what they should do anyway. Much like ceremony.

Healing elixir seems a bit silly. Spells do that and classes that don't get those spells don't get them for a reason.

Snare looks like it could be an exceptional spell if you get time to cast it. No idea why it is abjuration though.

Toll the dead could be brutal on a death domain cleric. Those d12s being doubled is noce - though you may need some party support.

Virtue looks like another spam cantrip like guidance. Slap some temp HP on the first guy to go through every door. Significant at lower levels, less so at high ones.

Zephyr strike looks very cool for multiclass melee characters.

[Tanarii]

Snare looks like it could be an exceptional spell if you get time to cast it. No idea why it is abjuration though.Probably because it's non-damaging magical trap that protects an area until triggered.


Virtue looks like another spam cantrip like guidance. Slap some temp HP on the first guy to go through every door. Significant at lower levels, less so at high ones.Only lasts one round, so generally not worth it. Might be useful in an ambush situation. Of course casting a V component spell probably gives away your position, ruining the chance you had to get surprise if you do cast it before the first combat round.

[8wGremlin]

Warlock/Sorcerer can now use Healing elixir helps with a Coffee Drow's healing issues.


Tomb lock can pick up:


Ceremony (conjuration, ritual)
Guiding hand (divination, ritual)
and Wild cunning (transmutation) - which the text description says is a ritual as well.

[Coidzor]

My impression was that the advantage and speed bonus only applies to your first attack on your turn within the duration of the spell. In other words, it's like Ensnaring Strike or the Smites, except it has the added benefit of not provoking OAs until the round you choose to strike.

Like that, except you avoid provoking Opportunity Attacks for as long as you keep up concentration for the spell up until the duration ends.

[toapat]

edit: hit wrong button, was mapping out table for a revised chaos bolt idea

[WickerNipple]

Ceremony - Marriage: You touch adult humanoids willing to be bonded together in marriage. For the next 24 hours, each target gains a +2 bonus to AC and saving throws while they are within 30 feet of each other. A creature can benefit from this ceremony just once.

Someone needs to have a talk with WotC about it not being the 1950s anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

Initial take:
Ceremony coming of age/marriage. Uh, maybe in a very role play heavy campaign, but FFS, why are a pair who just got married going out where it's dangerous? They should be consummating/partying, etc... only thing I like about it is that it costs 25 gp per casting.

Cause fear: eh.

Guiding Hand: beats bread crumbs.

Chaos Bolt: OK, I like it as Sorcerer Only.

Hand of Radiance: there's a typo for the 17th level bit, should be 4d6 not 4d8. I suppose it's OK, not very powerful. Sort of like Thunderclap from EE supplement.

Healing Elixir: more flexibility for healing in small parties.

Infestation: uh, only because it's a Sorcerer/Druid spell do I nod in approval.

Primal Savagery: if you want to mix it up in melee, go for it.

Puppet: run people off a cliff. OK...

Sudden Awakening: hmm, situational. NPC spell casters waking up all of their mooks that you just slept ...

Toll the Dead: Hmm, I like the idea, and only OK since it is a one creature effect. Not sure if I like the scaling damage or not. Minihex?

Unearthly Chorus: Needs to be a cleric spell as well.

Virtue: probably better things to do with this action ....

Wild Cunning: Eagle scout spell.

Zephyr Strike While I like the "no AoO" for ten rounds, that might be a bit strong. Might need to be a higher level spell.

[DragonSorcererX]

I don't like Ceremony... how am I supposed to build my harem if I can't religiously marry 20+ girls and traps...

[SharkForce]

unearthly choir reads an awful lot like "for the next 10 minutes you can use charm person at will as a bonus action except the target won't hate you". and potentially, depending on how your DM reads it, may be *better* than charm person, since unearthly choir makes you friendly while charm person makes them act like a friendly acquaintance, which could either mean the common english meaning (and probably makes someone more indfferent in attitude in D&D terms than friendly) or as making them friendly with the added benefit that they think of you as someone they're at least a bit familiar with.

it either needs to be nerfed, or made much higher level...

[LudicSavant]

First impressions of an experienced optimizer:

Color scheme:
Gold = Cheddar
Blue = Good
Black = Middle of the road
Orange = Meh
Red = Garbage
All colors refer to power levels, not to design quality (comments on that are in the descriptions though).

Wizard gets 9 new spells, Sorcerer gets 3, being excluded even when the spells fit very well thematically. And the spells the Sorcerer does get tend to suck for the Sorcerer, while some of the new Wizard spells are very good. Feels like the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

Cause Fear seems perfectly thematic for the Sorcerer, which of course means that Sorcerers don't get it.

Ceremony allows for some of the same silly abuses as a Ring of Spell Storing (for example, a cleric with Magic Initiate or a 1 level dip can give everyone familiars. Or a Tomelock). This seems like unhealthy design to me.

Atonement is also troubling to me. This would be a bad alignment mechanic by even 3.5e standards, and it seems really out of place in 5e. Also, a willing creature just getting its alignment magically changed seems much less meaningful than a willing creature making the effort to change their ways. It just undermines the whole redemption (or corruption) story.

Unless I'm missing something, Chaos Bolt is mathematically awful (both base and scaling, and random damage type to boot), and one of only 2 first level spells they gave the Sorcerer. Insulting.

Guiding Hand grants Wizards a resourceless navigation tool for their ritual book, but costs them Concentration to maintain. Could be useful for clerics and druids to prep in certain situations as well.

Hand of Radiance is a solid tool for the Potent Spellcasting sorts. The fact that it lets you exclude targets makes it better than stuff like Thunderclap or Sword Burst. Basically, you don't need to use an Arcana Cleric wizard cantrip selection for this anymore.

Healing Elixir is a straight wizard buff. Basically it lets you do what druids have been doing with Goodberry: Use up any remaining slots at the end of the day, rest, have healing stuff the next day. It can heal faster than Goodberry but heals an average of 7 (while Goodberry always heals 10). You can even have familiars or hirelings or whatever deliver the healing, allowing you to win the action economy. Seriously, why did they think that Wizards needed Goodberry?

Warlocks get it too. On a short rest. They can just churn out elixirs. It's like the goodberry warlock builds but better, with no need for multiclassing.

Infestation: Interestingly, they're moved even if they succeed the saving throw, if this is used by an Evoker wizard. There's also the question of whether this movement is the target's movement (like with fear) or whether it's forced movement (which tends to use the term "pushed"). If it uses the target's movement and provokes OAs, this is a very solid cantrip, especially for Evokers (blue). If not, it's much more limited (orange).

Primal Savagery: A generic backup melee attack that doesn't do anything special, and weirdly doesn't work with stuff like War Caster (why?). At low levels it doesn't seem like there's much point. At levels 11+ it will outpace a nonmagical/unpoisoned/no melee class abilities Shillelagh club, and doesn't require you to carry a stick (which may be socially useful on occasion). That's alright I guess. Worth taking over Poison Spray at least.

Puppet: Not as many options as the generally superior Command, but it is on the list of folks who don't get Command and can more precisely choose the direction of the target's movement. No concentration control of this sort is rare, and useful in situations where there are map hazards or you want to ground a flier or something... but it only targets humanoids who are vulnerable to charms, making it pretty situatonal unless you're fighting humanoids all the time. Wizards get it and Sorcerers (who really lack for no-concentration control options) don't. Like with Infestation there's a question of whether it uses up the target's movement, and likewise this affects how good it is.

Sense Emotion: Not a bad social tool. Not great either.

Snare: For general use this is fairly situational. However, unlike pretty much every other permanent magic spell (especially ones that make traps), this takes no costly material component, which means you can just endlessly spam it around your base or something, which seems a bit annoying. Wizards and Druids are the primary beneficiaries; Rangers have to sacrifice a spell known slot for something which is probably too situational.

Also it's Abjuration, which means you can use it to charge your Arcane Ward I guess. Design-wise, I'd rather have something with a more interesting cost-benefit analysis than something to spam just because why not?

I feel like this spell should have a very cheap material component just to prevent people from making 50-save moats out of it.

Sudden Awakening: One of only two new spells offered to the Sorcerer is... this. Really? I have a hard time seeing a Sorcerer wanting to use a precious spell known on this. For people who have wider spell access, this basically lets you get up from prone as a bonus action rather than using their movement... and can get up people within 10 feet of you too. Or wake them up. Pretty situational.

Toll the Dead: This is in general way better than Poison Spray (which isn't something to worry about really; poison spray wasn't very good). It deals a much better damage type, has a much better range, and targets a (usually) weaker save. It also compares well to the Cleric's Sacred Flame; it deals a somewhat worse damage type, but a bit more damage (against wounded foes). Also it works well with the Evoker's Potent Cantrip, and works with the abilities of a Necromancer Wizard and a Death Cleric. Sorcerers don't get it for some mystifying reason. Possibly because Wizards of the Coast hates them.

Unearthly Chorus: Takes Concentration, but lets you charm multiple people for a long duration with bonus actions. Also gives you advantage on Performance checks.

Virtue: Seems like this encourages Clerics to spam this every round out of combat so that it'll be up for the first round (or to reduce damage from facechecking traps, probably its best use), which is a bit annoying design-wise. As is the lack of scaling. But hey, average 5.5-7.5 temp hp on demand. You can use this to walk right through certain hazards. Could use it to harmlessly light yourself on fire indefinitely with Alchemist's Fire for a show or something. :smalltongue:

Wild Cunning: Situationally useful ritual for druids, which straight up buffs your Survival capabilities in a number of ways. Tracking people seems like the use that stands out the most to me. The flavor of the druid summoning nature spirits to set up or put away your human camping tools faster (and can be used for absolutely nothing else) seems a bit off to me, but that may be personal taste. This is especially the case when we start talking about them setting/clearing military scale encampments or the like in minutes. It seems at once too specific and too general in its application; the spirits are performing a potentially complex and diverse set of tasks involving manufactured human tools, and can't use those manipulations for anything else.

[Coidzor]

Chaos Bolt just has me thinking of an alternate version where the base version is 3d8 and upcasting it adds an additional 1d8, though the bolts that split off deal 1 less damage die until they hit the minimum of 2d8, and it can bounce back to targets it has hit before but only after exhausting other valid targets that it has not yet hit, and trying to place what spell level that would fit in with.

[WickerNipple]

First impressions of an experienced optimizer:


This is such a good list that I plan to just link it to them in the feedback box.

I also have a sorcerer coming up and I so feel the frustration here. :smallsmile:

[WickerNipple]

First impressions of an experienced optimizer:


Actually I disagree on one, I really think Primal Savagery should be black. For a back-up melee option it's pretty decent scaling on d10s compared to what the average caster druid might get out of Shillelagh past level 11. A lot of folks want some sort of melee option and this really ain't that bad for a non weapon user.

[NNescio]

unearthly choir reads an awful lot like "for the next 10 minutes you can use charm person at will as a bonus action except the target won't hate you". and potentially, depending on how your DM reads it, may be *better* than charm person, since unearthly choir makes you friendly while charm person makes them act like a friendly acquaintance, which could either mean the common english meaning (and probably makes someone more indfferent in attitude in D&D terms than friendly) or as making them friendly with the added benefit that they think of you as someone they're at least a bit familiar with.

it either needs to be nerfed, or made much higher level...

Your colleague or classmate you're on good terms with is a friendly acquaintance. The barista at Starbucks is just friendly.

But yeah, that spell is still OP.

[Specter]

The only ones I really like are Ceremony and Zephyr Strike. The first one because it encourages going feeper into some scenes and actually making the holy men suited for them. The second one because it opens nice tactical options, and god knows rangers need all the love they can get when it comes to spells.

[LudicSavant]

Actually I disagree on one, I really think Primal Savagery should be black. For a back-up melee option it's pretty decent scaling on d10s compared to what the average caster druid might get out of Shillelagh past level 11. A lot of folks want some sort of melee option and this really ain't that bad for a non weapon user.

You're free to disagree. That said, orange isn't my rating for "bad" it's my rating for "meh." Anyways, I didn't say much about it in my original post, so I'll elaborate:

It's basically Poison Spray with half the range, a much better damage type, and slightly less damage. Which is okay as a backup melee option past level 11 for people who haven't invested at all in melee options. It's also a bit weird that you can't use it with War Caster and the like.

Other backup melee options for the Druid include Frostbite, Thorn Whip, Infestation, Create Bonfire, Thunderclap, and Shillelagh, and they can all generally serve additional purposes. Also note that even at higher levels Shillelagh can keep up thanks to magic weapons, poisons (which druids have easy access to), and the like.

I will add the analysis to my prior post.

[Spore]

Someone needs to have a talk with WotC about it not being the 1950s anymore.

I think what they meant was that the effect only can be applied once. No AC stacking from having "wife armor".




Healing elixir seems a bit silly. Spells do that and classes that don't get those spells don't get them for a reason.



Yeah it's powerful but remember that healing is using an action, the spell slots are wasted if the elixir isn't used in 24 hours and healing doesn't provide benefits other than people not dying (which is quite nice but from a ressource perspective control spells can and will be sometimes better).

[McNinja]

I don't see the point in casting Virtue.

My initial reaction is Zephyr Strike is too powerful for a 1st level spell. In Pathfinder, Grace does the same thing except it's 2nd level, lasts only the one round, and provides no benefit to attacking. Never mind the moving, but Advantage on all your first attacks of the round sounds like a big deal for just a 1st level spell.
Considering Zephyr Strike is a Ranger spell that competes with hunter's mark, it's fine.

[Grey Watcher]

Someone needs to have a talk with WotC about it not being the 1950s anymore.

Actually, it appears to allow you to marry as many people as you like: you just have to do it all in one ceremony. And all be able to fit into a ten foot radius of the officiant. But not only can you not magically remarry after a divorce, you can't even do it if you were widowed. Apparently, "Til death do us part" is for chumps in D&D settings.


I think what they meant was that the effect only can be applied once. No AC stacking from having "wife armor".

But if you get into a polygamous marriage, do you have to be within range of all your spouses or just one? Or is there a number that counts as a quorum?

[WickerNipple]

Actually, it appears to allow you to marry as many people as you like: you just have to do it all in one ceremony.

You know you're right. It's a pretty crap marriage spell, but it's a pretty amazing army orgy mechanic.

[SharkForce]

Your colleague or classmate you're on good terms with is a friendly acquaintance. The barista at Starbucks is just friendly.

But yeah, that spell is still OP.

in D&D terms, those people are all probably indifferent. you can generally get them to do things that are helpful to you so long as there is no risk or sacrifice involved, with some persuading they might take a minor risk or do something that represents a minor sacrifice, but you're probably not going to get them to do something that represents a major risk or sacrifice no matter how hard you try... someone you work with might be willing to cover for you being late, but your chances of getting them to do something that would risk their job is essentially nil.

friendly means they actively want to help you... generally speaking, for most people their parents are friendly. your college professor that genuinely cares about their students is friendly. your buddy that you can easily convince to join you in pranking people is friendly. someone who is working towards the same goal as you probably counts as friendly for that purpose, though not necessarily for every purpose, so for example, if you're in the marketing department at work and you have an idea that will help everyone on the marketing team, most of the people on the marketing team would be "friendly" in D&D terms (but maybe not the one person who is in direct competition for you to get a promotion that you would both like).

basically, in D&D terms, friendly means they actively want to help you, indifferent means what it says on the tin, and hostile means they actively want you to fail.

generally speaking, your colleague or classmate probably doesn't particularly wish you any harm, but neither are they particularly passionate about your success... which is pretty similar to the barista at starbucks, and they're all (in D&D terms) indifferent.

edit:


Considering Zephyr Strike is a Ranger spell that competes with hunter's mark, it's fine.

plus, since it's on the ranger spell list that makes it a lot harder to get than if it was on anyone else's spell list (though it is a bit of a shame that an arcane trickster can't get this spell without multiclassing, since i would argue it also fits very well for them... but it isn't like it makes sense as a wizard spell, so i can't really argue that too hard)

[Coffee_Dragon]

"The evil a̻͎̖r͓͓̳͖̲̱͍̓̎͛̚t͈̹̫̺̺̰̼̉̓e͋ͩ͋f̤͔̙̆́ͦͅạ̫̱̜ͯͮ̔ͅct̅ ͯͣ́ has corrupted the very soul essence of your friend Bob."

"Eh, Ceremony."

"The evil a̻͎̖r͓͓̳͖̲̱͍̓̎͛̚t͈̹̫̺̺̰̼̉̓e͋ͩ͋f̤͔̙̆́ͦͅạ̫̱̜ͯͮ̔ͅct̅ ͯͣ́ re-corrupts the very soul essence of your friend Bob."

"Eh, Ceremony."

"The evil a̻͎̖r͓͓̳͖̲̱͍̓̎͛̚t͈̹̫̺̺̰̼̉̓e͋ͩ͋f̤͔̙̆́ͦͅạ̫̱̜ͯͮ̔ͅct̅ ͯͣ́ tries corrupting the very soul essence of your cat instead."

"Eh, Ceremony."

"The evil a̻͎̖r͓͓̳͖̲̱͍̓̎͛̚t͈̹̫̺̺̰̼̉̓e͋ͩ͋f̤͔̙̆́ͦͅạ̫̱̜ͯͮ̔ͅct̅ ͯͣ́ is really getting frustrated with this first-level spell."

"Eh."

"Also, Cathy's back. She's a v̺̬̜̔̊ͥ̓ͦa̽̓͂͗ͣm̻̌p̜̩̙̩i͚̠̱̙̖͂̄ͥ̿ͪr͇͙̪̍͗̊̉ͭ̒ͫê̓̀̚ ͔̳͑ now."

"Eh, Ceremony."



Did anyone bring up the fact that the spell doesn't really spell out what "willing" means here? Willing to have a spell cast on them, or specifically willing to change alignments? And if the latter, is there any distinction made between contrite and opportunistic?

[Coffee_Dragon]

plus, since it's on the ranger spell list that makes it a lot harder to get than if it was on anyone else's spell list (though it is a bit of a shame that an arcane trickster can't get this spell without multiclassing, since i would argue it also fits very well for them...

Agh, I was just thinking ZS was making Magic Initiate look good for AT, but that doesn't work, does it.

[Rowan Wolf]

The second one because it opens nice tactical options, and god knows rangers need all the love they can get when it comes to spells.

Especially one's that do not push for archery/ranged attacks to be the only supported style as Wzards taking the following design stance: "Much of the ranger’s extra potency in combat comes from spells such as hunter’s mark and from the class features granted by the ranger archetypes. The 3rd-level feature in each archetype usually either provides a raw increase in combat power, or grants the ranger greater combat versatility."

I may have to just rework some of the base line spells to be dual propose to allow for support of melee as well as ranged attacks.

[Coidzor]

Did anyone bring up the fact that the spell doesn't really spell out what "willing" means here? Willing to have a spell cast on them, or specifically willing to change alignments?

The intention and reasonable conclusion is patently the latter.


And if the latter, is there any distinction made between contrite and opportunistic?

OK, I'll bite, what do you mean and what exploits are you thinking of?

[McNinja]

Agh, I was just thinking ZS was making Magic Initiate look good for AT, but that doesn't work, does it.No, but it does make my 7 class multiclass character much better :D

[Rowan Wolf]

No, but it does make my 7 class multiclass character much better :D

I am now picturing a dragon or giant waiting devour a 7 layered adventurer.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The intention and reasonable conclusion is patently the latter.

If discussions on this board have taught me anything, it's that obvious intentions and conclusions seldom are.


OK, I'll bite, what do you mean and what exploits are you thinking of?

I mean there's no hint of a distinction, even though there are (obviously? not obviously?) radically different possible scenarios. I wasn't thinking of an exploit.

[SharkForce]

The intention and reasonable conclusion is patently the latter.



OK, I'll bite, what do you mean and what exploits are you thinking of?

well, i'm not the one who said it, but i'll take a crack at it...

suppose you start off with a character of one alignment (probably good, it's always easier to go from good to evil than the reverse) and then over the course of time (possibly with multiple resets) manages to at some point have each and alignment in the game.

you can now use the spell to reset to whatever alignment you want.

and now, let us suppose that you discover a complete set of candles of invocation. each of which represents 240 minutes of at-will use of level 1 spells for a druid or cleric in the area, in addition to giving creatures of the same alignment as the candle advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws within a fairly large radius (for the same duration, which can be divided into 1 minute increments).

if you must be sincere, you *might* get any individual character being able to use two of those candles. if opportunistic is fine, well, you can get to use all of them, and then just switch back when you're done. heck, you might even be able to get the entire party to use all of the candles (though it might not work for some characters, who have RP restrictions that will probably prevent them from switching alignment willy-nilly).

meanwhile, this theoretical adventuring party one day finds an obsidian steed figurine. being currently good-aligned, and not wanting to risk it being uncontrolled, they change their alignment before and after every use.

after yet another adventure, they have gone to krynn and looted one of the towers of high sorcerer and discover one of each alignment of robes of the archmagi, and so the arcane trickster and eldritch knight (who count as wizards based on a dev tweet iirc) each change their alignment as needed to be able to use one of them.

somewhere along the way, the entire party take up worship of pun-pun (who is pleased that they have discovered the means to allow pun-pun to be all alignments) and each gain a single level of cleric (pun-pun doesn't care about their alignment and approves of their munchkinry) so that they can all enjoy infinite use of level 1 spells (or perhaps they just take a magic initiate feat - again, dev tweet says if you cast as an X you count as an X for the purpose of magic items). this proves to be remarkably fortuitous; you can only presume that pun-pun has guided you to a quests where you get your hands on a talisman of ultimate good and a talisman of ultimate evil, which 2 party members quickly change their alignments to be able to use (or perhaps they don't need to, if they were the eldritch knight and arcane trickster).

they then manage to discover some magic items from previous editions, including tomes that can allow you to instantly gain a level if you are a wizard of the appropriate alignment. the wizard promptly uses all three in order.

now, this is of course all highly improbable, and is mostly done just to provide an example of how it could be used if opportunistic alignment changes are acceptable. the basic point is that opportunistic alignment changes being allowed would also allow some pretty shameless cheese, while sincere alignment changes would not...

but really it just shouldn't be part of a level 1 ritual that any random priest can cast with no real effort being required on the part of the person being targeted. honestly, i'm not sure the spell should really exist at all... it frankly feels better if that kind of change requires consistent personal effort from those involved, not just waving a magic wand and solving all your problems.

[zeek0]

Someone needs to have a talk with WotC about it not being the 1950s anymore.

Seems that you can marry many people at once (they all have to be within 20 feet to get the benefit), and you can marry people outside of the man/woman binary.

But realistically, Divorce should be an option. What should the effect be?

[Strill]

I hate the school assignments for these spells. They add an alchemy-themed spell in Healing Elixir, but the alchemy-themed school, Transmutation, doesn't get it. Conjuration gets it instead. They add Unearthly Chorus, a spell which enchants all who hear it...and it's somehow Illusion, and not Enchantment? C'mon people!

It's the same nonsense that results in Abjuration Wizards having no force-fields, and barely any of the best defensive spells. They're all Illusion or Evocation instead for some stupid reason.

[LudicSavant]

I hate the school assignments for these spells. They add an alchemy-themed spell in Healing Elixir, but the alchemy-themed school, Transmutation, doesn't get it. Conjuration gets it instead. They add Unearthly Chorus, a spell which enchants all who hear it...and it's somehow Illusion, and not Enchantment? C'mon people!

It's the same nonsense that results in Abjuration Wizards having no force-fields, and barely any of the best defensive spells. They're all Illusion or Evocation instead for some stupid reason.

That's a good point. Why the heck is Unearthly Chorus Illusion?

[Coffee_Dragon]

you can now use the spell to reset to whatever alignment you want.

"Oh, look, there's a Sword of Answering in this chest. Pity we're all -"

"Dibs. Here."

"But it's restricted to -"

"Dibs. C'mon, gimme."

"But you're not -"

"Ceremony. Dibs."

"But look, it's for evil -"

"You have one hour to find a puppy. I'm sure I'll want to kick one to celebrate."


but really it just shouldn't be part of a level 1 ritual that any random priest can cast with no real effort being required on the part of the person being targeted. honestly, i'm not sure the spell should really exist at all... it frankly feels better if that kind of change requires consistent personal effort from those involved, not just waving a magic wand and solving all your problems.

I guess part of the dissonance comes down to the game's somewhat inconsistent attitude towards alignment. If alignment is now mostly a descriptor, a function of behaviour and attitude, then the effect can't actually do much but rubberstamp a change that was already taking place. But other parts of the game like artefacts and planar influence take a legacy approach of Alignment Matters on the face of it; they don't say "you turn evil", they change your alignment and leave you to work out what that means in terms of psychology and objectives. And if changing alignment really rewires your brain, yet does not make you irrational about your prospects, you should certainly be able to, given the right circumstances, sincerely want to switch hats in spite of having no regrets about recent deeds. And then once you willingly revert, you actually do change again, justifying the move on a moral level (woo, I'm good now! Why should not everyone want to be!) and pragmatic level (woo, I'm on the winning team now! Smart move, evil me!) - an ego rebuilding effect worthy of level 7-8 psionics.

[Coffee_Dragon]

But realistically, Divorce should be an option. What should the effect be?

Advantage and +d8 psychic damage on attacks against each other and in-laws, offset by Cutting Words at will?

[Specter]

I think what they meant was that the effect only can be applied once. No AC stacking from having "wife armor".

This is the only armor can actually give you cover! Mandatory for Rogues, Monks and Barbarians! :P

[KorvinStarmast]

unearthly choir reads an awful lot like "for the next 10 minutes you can use charm person at will as a bonus action except the target won't hate you".
It looks a lot like "Pied Piper of Hamelin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin)" in a spell.

[Dalebert]

A couple of probably errors that need addressing:

Puppet doesn't say creature uses its reaction to move but it probably was intended to. As it is, it wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks due to the RAW around those. It just seems weird based on existing precedent that a creature is able to move without using any sort of action at all. You could potentially exploit that error to grant your allies free movement.

Ceremony was probably supposed to say the expensive component gets used up since you can make holy water with it. Until they fix that, holy water is free to make and can be sold at half price. Doh!

EDIT: I got Cause Fear mixed up with Puppet for making a creature move. Fixed.

[Temperjoke]

Ceremony - just seems to codify a lot of the abilities that the PHB already says that clerics and paladins could do, like creating holy water (which the PHB says the silver is consumed when making, but doesn't describe how much can be made at once, while this UA does), and provides options for undoing changes, like alignment changes, that can happen outside a player's choice (like when traveling the planes).

Primal Savagery - reminds me of Meg Griffin from Family guy, when they did the short what-if episode where they all got super powers and she got the power to grow her fingernails, and she scratched a guy who said "it hurt, but didn't draw blood, but still ouch". I can't find a proper clip, but it reminded me of it.

Healing Elixir - it's not a lot of health, and it doesn't scale up, so it just seems like it'd be good for emergency prep, similar to casting mage armor.

EDIT: More thoughts

Puppet - This another one that seems powerful, but I don't think it actually is. All you do, if they fail a CON save (which is generally never a weak point with monsters, especially higher level ones), is make them move in one direction, or make them drop something they're holding. So, maybe if you've had a bunch of time to set up traps and they happen to stand in a straight line with those traps, sure, it could be an "easy" kill with a lot of work to get it. Or you make them drop their weapons, which they then pick up if no one can get the weapons away before the enemy's next turn.


Honestly, I don't see anything desperately broken, just a couple of things that need the language tightened up on. Crawford's already clarified Zephyr Strike https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/849302527069884416 .

[Ziegander]

Mostly I'm upset that Chaos Bolt is not a cantrip.

[Grey Watcher]

Seems that you can marry many people at once (they all have to be within 20 feet to get the benefit), and you can marry people outside of the man/woman binary.

But realistically, Divorce should be an option. What should the effect be?

If you read the "can only benefit once" as once in a lifetime, divorce could make you eligible for it again. Other than that, because the mechanical effects fade in 24 hours, there's not much point short of what's more properly called an anullment (ie retroactively declaring that you were never actually married, rather than just a legal end to a marriage.

If you want to hang one of the tiny, arbitrary 24 hour boosts, maybe +2 initiative (because you're free of your obligations now)?

[toapat]

Mostly I'm upset that Chaos Bolt is not a cantrip.

it really should be Either a cantrip OR have all dice be "Live" and only be able to detonate, not bounce.

[8wGremlin]

I wish wild magic sorcerers still got Nahal's Reckless Dweomer, Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield.
I loved those spells.

[Sigreid]

If you read the "can only benefit once" as once in a lifetime, divorce could make you eligible for it again. Other than that, because the mechanical effects fade in 24 hours, there's not much point short of what's more properly called an anullment (ie retroactively declaring that you were never actually married, rather than just a legal end to a marriage.

If you want to hang one of the tiny, arbitrary 24 hour boosts, maybe +2 initiative (because you're free of your obligations now)?

When I read once, I think once. As in the gods or whatever will only confer this type of blessing on your union once, ever. You may get divorced, widowed, run off and get remarried, etc. But the gods will never again smile upon your union in the same way. So, in effect it's really only useful from a gameist perspective for a couple of party members to get married the day of or evening before the big final show down.

In whole, I see ceremony as a nice fluffing of a once in a lifetime endeavor getting genuine divine blessing. Not as a utility spell.

[Ziegander]

So anyone have any idea on how to make Chaos Bolt work in 5e as a cantrip?

Obviously it could just do almost precisely what it used to do in 4e...

Chaos Bolt
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You fire off a bolt of coruscating chaos. Make a ranged spell attack against one creature within range. If that attack hits, the target is dealt 1d8 psychic damage, and if the attack roll was an odd number, then make another ranged spell attack against another creature within 30 feet of the first. If that attack hits, that creature is dealt 1d4 psychic damage and if your attack roll was an odd number, then make another ranged spell attack against yet another creature within 30 feet of the second creature, and so on, until your attack roll is even or until there are no other creatures to attack. A creature cannot be attacked more than once with this spell.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d8 to the primary target, and by 1d4 to any additional targets, when you reach 5th level (2d8/2d4), 11th level (3d8/3d4), and 17th level (4d8/4d4).

...but I do like allowing it to deal a random damage type (however that would work in cantrip mode).

Other ideas?

[Spore]

Your Chaos Bolt is cool but too strong. If it would only bounce to friendly targets....wait

[Coidzor]

Other ideas?

Roll 1d8 damage, roll 1d8 to determine what type of damage it is. Then either use the second d8 to determine whether it splits or roll a 3rd d8 in order to determine if it splits off. If it splits off, then it only does the caster's stat in damage with 1d8 rolled to determine what type of damage it is.

At 5th level the damage increases by 1d8 to the primary target and 1d4 to the secondary target, and the later levels cantrips improve at. Each damage die, whether 1d8 or 1d4 has its own chance to spawn a bolt splintering off.


If a secondary bolt splits off, the splinter bolts do 1 less die of damage, until you get just the casting stat of damage, which can't proc a chance for a new bolt.

But that's pretty clunky and requires increasing numbers of d4s and d8s that are readily differentiated.



Maybe the secondary bolts could have d6 for their damage die and a d4 for the chance to see if they split off, so there's 1/3 of the time that it definitely won't split, for about a 16.5% chance of another bolt per die. If you do a d8 for the damage of the primary bolt and a d4 for the chance to split, that gets about a 12.5% chance per primary bolt's damage die of getting a split, if you do a d6 for the chance to split that's.... also about 12.5% unless I'm doing the math badly as I wind down for bed.

Of course, one could also just roll some die directly to determine if it splits off. Like a 1/10 chance to start with, then a 1/8, then a 1/6, then a 1/4 chance Or something static between a 1/6 and 1/10 chance, letting the chance just go up by having more dice that can proc it. Or the die size stays the same but it goes from 1/10 to 4/10.

[Tanarii]

In whole, I see ceremony as a nice fluffing of a once in a lifetime endeavor getting genuine divine blessing. Not as a utility spell.
How is a mechanical bonus fluffing?

The more this is discussed, the more I realized I majorly dislike multiple aspects of the Ceremony spell. Proving a +2AC for a marriage ceremony is both pointless and ... well to be honest it just seems senseless? Why AC? Why would anyone want that? If it's a special spell tailored for warrior-mates going into battle, make it reusable and call it something else. For a Cleric blessed Marriage Ceremony, it's utterly ridiculous to provide ANY mechanical bonus for 24 hrs, let alone an AC bonus.

[Sigreid]

How is a mechanical bonus fluffing?

The more this is discussed, the more I realized I majorly dislike multiple aspects of the Ceremony spell. Proving a +2AC for a marriage ceremony is both pointless and ... well to be honest it just seems senseless? Why AC? Why would anyone want that? If it's a special spell tailored for warrior-mates going into battle, make it reusable and call it something else. For a Cleric blessed Marriage Ceremony, it's utterly ridiculous to provide ANY mechanical bonus for 24 hrs, let alone an AC bonus.

That's why it's fluffing. Practical application of its benefits is almost nil.

[Tanarii]

That's why it's fluffing. Practical application of its benefits is almost nil.the more I see people use the word fluff the less I understand what it's supposed to be ... :smallconfused::smallamused:

[Sigreid]

the more I see people use the word fluff the less I understand what it's supposed to be ... :smallconfused::smallamused:

Probably because there's a wide range of interpretations of fluff. To me it simply means that the mechanical aspects of the game aren't meaningfully impacted by the element. So, more of a story thing. I see ceremony this way because it would be an obnoxious level of meta gaming to make use of most of the applications.

[MrStabby]

the more I see people use the word fluff the less I understand what it's supposed to be ... :smallconfused::smallamused:

Yeah, I thought fluffing was something else as well.

[JobsforFun]

In everyone's opinion how good is the paladin spell? I am sort of confused with it, if you give someone one of the buffs and you never give them that buff again?

[Temperjoke]

Yeah, I thought fluffing was something else as well.

:wink:

There's fluff, and then there's fluffing.

[toapat]

In everyone's opinion how good is the paladin spell? I am sort of confused with it, if you give someone one of the buffs and you never give them that buff again?

depends, can you beat a fiend to death using backpacks filled with glass Holy water vials and have them detonate?

otherwise its basically a superspell for that one epic buff

[Ziegander]

Chaos Bolt
Evocation Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

You fire off a bolt of coruscating chaos. Make a ranged spell attack against one creature within range. If that attack hits, the target is dealt 1d6 damage, and if the damage roll was a 6, then make another ranged spell attack against another creature within 30 feet of the first. If that attack hits, the creature is dealt 1d6 damage, and if the damage roll was a 6, then make another ranged spell attack against yet another creature within 30 feet of the second creature, and so on, until the damage roll is less than 6 or until there are no other creatures to attack. A creature cannot be attacked more than once with this spell.

Whenever you cast this spell and hit a creature with the ranged spell attack, roll 1d10. Your chaos bolt deals damage of a varying type depending on that roll.

1 = Acid, 2 = Cold, 3 = Fire, 4 = Force, 5 = Lightning, 6 = Necrotic, 7 = Poison, 8 = Psychic, 9 = Radiant, and 10 = Thunder.

This spell’s damage increases by 1d6, both to the primary target and to any additional targets, when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

I'm extremely tempted to make the damage of the bolts not scale, but to grant additional starter bolts at 5th, 11th, and 17th, each with the capability of ricocheting off and causing pandemonium.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Chaos Bolt
Conjuration cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Varies

You fire a bolt of coruscating chaos towards a creature. The target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the target rolls on the Wild Magic Surge table.

"I stopped casting this on the party paladin every six seconds during overland travel after they buried me up to my neck in sand and asked me how it's gonna be."
--Bob, wild sorcerer

[BiPolar]

:wink:

There's fluff, and then there's fluffing.

I am NOT going there.

But Ceremony does seem oddly useless. I mean, how often can you legitimately marry your party members or do most of the other ceremonies? And only once? No divorce in Faerun, eh? :D

[Zalabim]

You can get married as many times as you like. It just isn't as magical the fifth time around.

[djreynolds]

You can get married as many times as you like. It just isn't as magical the fifth time around.

LOL, that is awesome.

But back to the thread, I love these spells.