Planescape and Real-World deities

[Ravian]

Planescape always had an interesting element to it where in order to show the sheer scope of the multiverse, they mixed in deities from real-world mythologies (such as the Greek Pantheon or the Aesir) alongside deities from the Forgotten Realms and similar settings.

On one hand I think including these sorts of deities aids in the whole kitchen-sink element. The idea of having a clerics of Helios, Loki, Nergal, Pelor, and Kossuth all debating on the relationship between fire, and light in regards to their deities strikes me as a very "Planescape" thing.

The one difficulty though is that Planescape has an emphasis on alignment that becomes difficult to transition to real-world mythology.

In canon for example, the Olympians make their home in Arborea, the Chaotic Good plane. But does that really fit for a pantheon as petty and vengeful as the Olympians? These are the type of gods that'll turn you into a spider just for being boastful. How do you even begin to map them to alignments based upon contemporary morality?
This is pretty consistent for most mythologies, in that most of the more benevolent deities still tend to engage in plenty of actions that at best can be considered disproportionate retaliation.

Any thoughts? It seems that unless one cuts these deities completely, you likely have a couple of options. Either lighten the interpretation of these deities (which seems wrong to the mythology buff in me), change their alignments entirely to something more morally neutral, or acknowledge the hypocrisy in-universe.

Currently I'm leaning towards the third option. But I'm anxious to know if there's anything else to consider before going all in, particularly since outright deciding that the Gods are essentially ignoring things like alignment in-universe while still holding their followers to it.

[bigstipidfighte]

Not all gods hang out on alignment-appropriate planes. For example, Gruumsh the chaotic evil god of the orcs hands out in Lawful-leaning-evil cube plane, because the giant armies clashing and warring for no reason other than their cubes bumping into each other suits him.

As for changing the alignments of the gods- gods aren't really characters in a classic sense. Their alignment is more important in regards to who can be their clerics. Even though the Greek gods might be total *****, if they see themselves as the shepherds of humanity and want Good clerics, let them make that happen. They are gods after all, perhaps the metaphysics of alignment are different for beings on their level.

[Dragonexx]

The Pantheon Exemption Clause


An astute reader of divine pantheons may notice that the ones located on the Celestial planes have members of Neutral or even Evil alignment. This is particularly strange, considering the fact that evil creatures are usually attacked on sight in most Upper Planes. So why the exception?

It has to do with the natures of the deities. The Gods and Goddesses of the pantheons have self-governing territories in many planes. The divinely morphic nature of the planes gives most deities easy access to land and resources to carve out a splendid domain for their followers. It's commonly assumed that the deities of a pantheon police the affairs of their fellows, and the pantheon needs a common meeting ground to discuss matters relating their created people. In most cases, the deities of Good alignment outnumber the Evil ones, and an Upper Plane is chosen as the headquarters through majority rule. In the case of Good head deity, the decision may be entirely up to the leader of the pantheon.

The phrase "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" is the primary incentive for this arrangement. People located on the same plane have an easier time of scrying upon and communicating with each other through magical means. Sure, having the Dwarven God of Greed in Celestia may put the Archons and other Gods on edge, but they can easily find out what he's up to than if he were located in the Nine Hells. This also grants the advantage by cutting off Lower Planes contact with the Evil deities and forcing them to rely on less convenient means of communication or cooperation with the rest of the pantheon. Some of the Evil deities find this a satisfactory arrangement (less competition in the Upper Planes, a less dangerous region, higher standard of living for worshipers, etc). Sometimes an evil deity may defy this arrangement and cut off all ties with the pantheon and relocate (such as in the case of Urdlen).


From Libertad's planar revision project: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=270940

[Lo'Tek]

Three things i dropped from my own interpretation
- the idea of a single map knowing all that is truth
- that gates are small and almost always have barriers
- the believe that a realm is distinctivly in a single plane

You can trust the map of the borderlands when you want to reach the great wheel:
Walk in one direction and the bodies become friendly and helpful, walk in the opposite direction and expect aggression and hostility.
This is however only an intrinsic feature of the borderlands/wheel.

If there is one thing true about the planes: a clueless gets lost. Easily. Always.

I once thought that up means good. But i was thinking in fives and so I climbed a mountain in Arborea and thought: this must be Olympus. How wrong i was - almost got my name written in the dead book. Olympus a place of snow and ice? Climbed right down into Niflheim deep in the gray waste.
There are those who say that is impossible. That these planes can not have such a connection. Look at Olympus, it has connections to lower planes. Especially the Styx.

See "up" means "on the upper side of the map of the borderlands". It does not mean "up a mountain" "up a ladder" and up doesn't even make sense when you start thinking in planes.

Olympus is not the only mountain in Arborea. It is simply the one easiest to find: Start in Sigil, move through Sylvania, get mighty drunk on wine and then lost in the woods and you can't miss it. So the chant is that Olympus is a realm in Arborea, because Arborea is the plane of the wheel you reach from Sylvania. These woods can lead you to the realm of Sylvanus as well (yet how i don't know).

Most certainly the parts of Olympus you reach using this path look like they are in Arborea. It is a place where heroes fight monsters, where philosophers have endless debates and where the parties are legendary. Just be careful with the deities (there and elsewhere). They are, by all means, reality warpers. You get on their wrong side and might just find yourself chained to a rock in Carceri. Same realm, different plane.

Some may tell you my words are whispers and that those are different realms. That the greek gods banish to the realm of the titans any body they do not welcome in their realm. But you already tumbled to the truth: These gods are not chaotic good and by extension their realm is not. At least not completly. Arborea is chaotic good, the petitioners on this path are chaotic good, and their destination in olympus is chaotic good. But that is only an aspect of the realm as it is only an aspect of these deities.

Olympus is not in Arborea and it most certainly is not a layer of it, even if some maps say it is.
Arborea is a name for the raw, unwarped plane of chaotic good, between the realms, and the easiest way to travel between them.

Easy as in "finding a way to them". Don't expect the elves to let you enter Arvandor. But if you meet them, ask them if Olympus was always there. The answer might (not) surprise you: "It isn't even there now". Then turn towards where you last saw it and you will no longer see it there.

Want to know another one of my pathways through the plane of chaotic good?
Make sure you have seven meals with you: Leave for Arborea once you had afternoon tea. Eat dinner and supper and have a good nights sleep. After breakfast continue, eat seconds on the river. At eleven you will see the rolling hills, so stop for a meal and you will reach a hobbit hamlet hidden in a valley at the right time for lunch. Do not skip any of these! Once in the Green Fields, their deities realm, a signposted path leads to a Venya called the third layer of Mount Celestia where Yondalla, their lawful good greater goddess has her home. This path skipps the upper planes of conflict entirely. Or maybe it doesn't: who knows in which of the upper planes the valley village is actually hidden.


TL:DR Planescape is not about alignments. The wheel is. Planescape is about clueless adventurers slowly becoming cutters as they understand how Keys, Gates and Paths work. Its kitchen sink design works best when bundled with applied narrativum. Every map is only valid as long as a body follows it.

Where are you, if you walk the woods outwards from Sylvania, if you do not go through the Gate, because you did not bring the Key?
I have a map that says: you always end on the first layer and there always is that mountain. Told you where that map got me.
Then there is the story where elves and Greeks share the layers, have two names for each and common borders. I think a half-elf made it.

[Ravian]

I'm definitely starting to realize that planar geography seems to be an exercise in futility. Especially when portals, planar connections and infinite spaces get involved. More and more it seems like the Great Wheel may just be some artificial concept some Greybeards made up to try and impose some form of symmetrical order on everything.

It's at times like this whene it starts to seem like the Xaostitects are on to something.

[Mystral]

Planescape always had an interesting element to it where in order to show the sheer scope of the multiverse, they mixed in deities from real-world mythologies (such as the Greek Pantheon or the Aesir) alongside deities from the Forgotten Realms and similar settings.

On one hand I think including these sorts of deities aids in the whole kitchen-sink element. The idea of having a clerics of Helios, Loki, Nergal, Pelor, and Kossuth all debating on the relationship between fire, and light in regards to their deities strikes me as a very "Planescape" thing.

The one difficulty though is that Planescape has an emphasis on alignment that becomes difficult to transition to real-world mythology.

In canon for example, the Olympians make their home in Arborea, the Chaotic Good plane. But does that really fit for a pantheon as petty and vengeful as the Olympians? These are the type of gods that'll turn you into a spider just for being boastful. How do you even begin to map them to alignments based upon contemporary morality?
This is pretty consistent for most mythologies, in that most of the more benevolent deities still tend to engage in plenty of actions that at best can be considered disproportionate retaliation.

Any thoughts? It seems that unless one cuts these deities completely, you likely have a couple of options. Either lighten the interpretation of these deities (which seems wrong to the mythology buff in me), change their alignments entirely to something more morally neutral, or acknowledge the hypocrisy in-universe.

Currently I'm leaning towards the third option. But I'm anxious to know if there's anything else to consider before going all in, particularly since outright deciding that the Gods are essentially ignoring things like alignment in-universe while still holding their followers to it.

Dieties don't have to make their home on the same planes as their own alignment. That holds true even for original d&d dieties.

For example, another place in Arborea is Brightwater, the realm of 5 fearun dieties. It is the home of Liira, Tymora, Sharess and Sune (all chaotic good), but also Waukeen (true neutral).

[BWR]

Not all gods hang out on alignment-appropriate planes. For example, Gruumsh the chaotic evil god of the orcs hands out in Lawful-leaning-evil cube plane, because the giant armies clashing and warring for no reason other than their cubes bumping into each other suits him.


Gruumsh is LE, as are orcs. The CE orcs thing is a 3e alteration.

[Mystral]

Gruumsh is LE, as are orcs. The CE orcs thing is a 3e alteration.

That's the first time I hear something like this, do you have any source for this?

[Clistenes]

Well, to be honest, almost nobody lives up to their alignment in Planescape. Mortals, outsiders, gods... all are kinda oportunistic, pragmatist, hypocrites...

A character can be CG, and be a member of the Takers who will backstab his mother for some gain...

In general, faction membership is more relevant than alignmet.

It's something that kinda bothers me. Characters's actions shouldn't be completely divorced from their alignment...

[Darth Ultron]

Well, first off I guess I would caution you about myths, or really any story. They are often are incomplete at best, so to take a single tale and say ''well this is the fact'' is wrong. There are tons of tales and tons of interpretations of the tales. And the same is true of any fictional character. And it is a mess. Someone says they ''like Batman'', but ''Batman'' is really like a hundred characters, depending on the writer. And not even the ''core'' things about a character are always used. And the tricky thing is that most people pick a single ''interpretation'' of the character and like it. So, bottom line is you might want to do lots of research and not just open one book and say ''this character is X'' based on this one story.

Next, context matters a lot. For example, the fictional Olympians did not like to be bothered by mortals, and this was a well known warning. So it was always foolish of a mortal to get anywhere near a god. And sure, the mortals will say ''the god was petty and cruel '', but were they if they warned you to stay away? And a lot is lost in a tale. Sure the official tale is ''they looked at the god the wrong way and were transformed into a tree'', but is that the whole story? Maybe not... Think of it like parents and children with the gods as parents, and mortals as the kids. The parents are doing adult, dangerous things and tell the kids to keep away...and if the kids don't, they get hurt or worse. And sure the parents are to blame....but when the ''kids'' get more around 17 they need to take some of the blame. Play with fire and get burned and all.

And a lot of the cases do depend on your spin of ''good and evil''. A lot of Greek gods did the polymoph curse...but did not kill the mortal. So that is sure a lot less evil then death.

[Tiktakkat]

That's the first time I hear something like this, do you have any source for this?

AD&D (1st) Monster Manual
AD&D (1st) Deities and Demi-G
AD&D (1st) Manual of the Planes
AD&D (2nd) Monstrous Compendium
AD&D (2nd) Monster Mythology
AD&D (2nd) Planes of Law

And . . . pretty much every other AD&D sourcebook where the alignment of orcs and Gruumsh are mentioned.
Orcs were Lawful Evil, and Gruumsh was Lawful Evil, up until 3E.

The only changes during the AD&D periods were:
D&DG/Dragon 62 - Gruumsh and co. live in the Nine Hells
Dragon 64 - Gruumsh and co. are moved to Gehenna
Manual of the Planes - Gruumsh and co. are moved to Acheron

[hamishspence]

I thought the whole point of Spelljammer's "scro" was that they were vastly more disciplined and Lawful than regular orcs?

Also:


I wish more recent editions of D&D would include the actual alignment graph that older editions had. It would clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Here's the one from the original D&D set:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DSs2bX13hVc/TSvlWfi0wuI/AAAAAAAAC5E/kwE-DYf3GtU/s1600/alignmentchart.jpg



Orcs are on the Chaotic side there.

[LibraryOgre]

I thought the whole point of Spelljammer's "scro" was that they were vastly more disciplined and Lawful than regular orcs?

Also:



Orcs are on the Chaotic side there.

Yes, but that's partially because original D&D (not AD&D) only had Lawful and Chaotic as alignments... and that image is old enough to reference Hobbits and Ents, not Treants and Halflings, so it's an older bit. You'll notice that none of the axes are really labeled, there.

Personally, I prefer orcs as chaotic, as opposed to the more lawful goblinoids, but that they were LE when things were being laid out in the Great Wheel (before it was called the Great Wheel) is pretty standard.

[Pippa the Pixie]

In canon for example, the Olympians make their home in Arborea, the Chaotic Good plane. But does that really fit for a pantheon as petty and vengeful as the Olympians? These are the type of gods that'll turn you into a spider just for being boastful. How do you even begin to map them to alignments based upon contemporary morality?


Well, you use classic morality to start with, not contemporary morality.

Also, Planescape wise, it's not like the whole Greek pantheon is Chaotic Good:

Zeus: Neutral
Ares: Chaotic Evil
Artemis: Neutral Good
Athena: Lawful Good
Demeter: Neutral Good
Dionysus: Chaotic Neutral
Hades: Lawful Evil
Hecate: Chaotic Evil
Hephaestus: Neutral Good
Hera: Chaotic Neutral
Poseidon: Chaotic Neutral
Tyche:Neutral

Only Aphrodite, Apollo and Hermes are Chaotic Good.

[Tiktakkat]

I thought the whole point of Spelljammer's "scro" was that they were vastly more disciplined and Lawful than regular orcs?

Sort of.
The bigger point of the scro is that they used their discipline to forge an army like the elves.
The Chaotic Good elves.

Which was a bit of an inverted trope for SJ too, as the Elven Imperial Fleet was more LG/LN than the typical elven CG.

So the scro wound up wearing bright and shiny armor, with well kept weapons, instead of the usual grungy orc junk, and had their own ship designs in Standard Functional Brutal style, and all that.



Orcs are on the Chaotic side there.

As Mark Hall said, that's basically a proto-chart.
You will also note the entry for "platinum dragons" in the Chaotic Good quadrant. As in "packs of Bahamuts". Likewise the "chromatics dragons", for packs of Tiamats to oppose them.
As with most monsters, Orcs were originally "Chaotic", which had a different meaning as in the Eternal Champion milieu, than in the later AD&D Great Wheel/9 alignment milieu.

[Mechalich]

The Greek Pantheon, as written up in On Hallowed Ground, was far more chaotic than lawful (9 to 2) and far more good than evil (7 to 3). Additionally, the Pantheon's realm of Olympus pointedly does not include Hades (LE) or Hecate (CE). So the chaotic good plane of Arborea makes a fair amount of sense. Now, you could make the case that the Greeks would be better suited to the not quite as good plane of Ysgard but the powers that be gave that to the Norse and weren't keen on sticking big Pantheon's in the same plane. The were also generally opposed to putting any major gods in Limbo at all, because big time realms ruled by unchanging immortals didn't really fit the shtick of that plane. That was a thing that mattered in Planescape, a lot of things were sorted out on questions of character and feel, not on strict alignment-based lines.

If you feel the Greek Pantheon is out of place, the best solution is to break it up, and reduce the residents of Arborea to the various gods that plausibly belong there (plus Zeus for a veneer of authority) and scatter the rest. The Egyptian Pantheon, for example, is all over the place with gods in like 10 different planes, including some of the elemental planes (Ptah's in the Ethereal of all places).

[Tiktakkat]

Meanwhile, the Greek Pantheon in D&DG (AD&D) was:

Zeus: CG
Aphrodite: CG
Apollo: CG
Ares: CE
Artemis: N
Athena: LG
Demeter: NG
Dionysus: CN
Epimetheus: NG*
Hades: NE*
Hecate: LE*
Hephaestus: N*
Hera: N
Hermes: N
Nike: LN
Pan: N*
Poseidon: CN
Prometheus: NG
Tyche: N

*lives on another plane

Olympus seems like a strong choice there.

[Ravian]

Mostly what I was getting at was whether or not those alignments were fitting given a proper background in Mythology. Some of them just aren't very appropriate.

For instance Aphrodite was frequently depicted as a very spiteful and self-centered goddess who constantly caused problems by inflaming passions towards her and others.

Apollo was known to carry arrows that caused agonizing death to those they struck, which he used upon the sons of a queen who boasted her superiority to his and his sister's mother (because she had bore 14 children at once, while Apollo's mother had only had two.)

Demeter was willing to hold the world in a state of eternal winter, dooming all of mankind, until Hades gave up her daughter.


Granted after what everyone's said, I think I will keep Olympus and the Pantheon in Arborea, simply making the distinction that it is still a separate realm and as such they can expect that the Pantheon isn't going to be as exemplary to the status of Chaotic Good as others in the realm. Much of it is based more on how the gods themselves have constructed things. They're certainly Chaotic because they are largely arbitrary individualistic deities that rarely hold themselves to anyone's will but their own. (It's pretty well established in mythology that Zeus rules partly because he's stronger than most of the others, and partly because the others usually screw things up more. There was even a myth where the other Olympians, led by Hera who had finally had it with her husband, overthrew Zeus and Hera reigned. They very quickly realized this was a mistake.

Good is far more up in the air, and some of the deities I'll probably shift a little further Neutral (Apollo and Demeter can stay despite their occasional acts of dickery, but Aphrodite is almost an archetype for Chaotic Neutral.)

Some of the other pantheons may also get the occasional shift, but I think it is important that in Planescape, alignments aren't necessarily the most consistent thing, with a lot of room for variance and hypocrisy.

[Darth Ultron]

Mostly what I was getting at was whether or not those alignments were fitting given a proper background in Mythology. Some of them just aren't very appropriate.

.

Well, also keep in mind ''one story'' does not make an alignment. Just as ''Bob killed Fred'' does not make Bob Chaotic Evil. And this is even more true when your talking about like ''three stories'' that take place in the 5,000 year life span (so far) of the god.

The details matter, and often ''stories'' get the details wrong or incomplete or even just lie. For just about any myth or story for that matter you can find at least two versions...if not more. So how do you know the ''true'' story?

Also keep in mind the more classic view of good and evil. The way, way, way back classic view. And not the more ''sensitive'' 21 century view. For example a good person could slaughter someone that insulted them in ye old classic times and still be good...because it was evil/wrong to insult a good person.

And mechanically, technically, a god makes an avatar to interact with the multiverse. And it's possible for an avatar to be different sides and alignments of a god.

[RedMage125]

Well, you use classic morality to start with, not contemporary morality.

Also, Planescape wise, it's not like the whole Greek pantheon is Chaotic Good:

Zeus: Neutral
Ares: Chaotic Evil
Artemis: Neutral Good
Athena: Lawful Good
Demeter: Neutral Good
Dionysus: Chaotic Neutral
Hades: Lawful Evil
Hecate: Chaotic Evil
Hephaestus: Neutral Good
Hera: Chaotic Neutral
Poseidon: Chaotic Neutral
Tyche:Neutral

Only Aphrodite, Apollo and Hermes are Chaotic Good.

Disagree with several choices here. One of them is one of my chief pet peeves about depictions of Greek deities. That being...why make Hades evil? Just because he's a god of the dead? Nothing about the mythology of Hades says "evil". Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and the Percy Jackson books (not movies) did the best representations of him IMHO. Hades should either be Neutral or Lawful Neutral. He punished those who transgressed in life because it was his JOB. He also facilitated those who were worthy to going to the Elysian fields. And for those who mention the kidnapping of Persephone...I don't think a valid judgement about alignment can be made based on ANYONE'S actions while under the effect of one of Eros/Cupid's arrows. That's right, Hades was shot by Eros, saw Persephone, and nabbed her. While she was surprised at first, she eventually grew very fond of Hades. He kept her in the Elysian Fields, gave her riches and jewels, and she was kind of into him. And he very much loves his wife, she's even convinced him to bend on his harsh rules a few times (Orpheus, for example). Nothing about Hades is evil.

Zeus...Neutral seems apropos...Hard to say. He certainly exhibits a lot of Chaotic behaviors, and while he is sometimes benevolent, he is other times very selfish. I would normally go with CG/CN for that one, but he seems so wishy-washy that TN may be a good call.

Artemis I would almost certainly call Chaotic Neutral. She appreciates wild nature, and is more concerned with her own independence and purity, and...oh, yeah...she MURDERS men without whisper of conscience.

Athena COULD be Lawful Good, but I'd say Lawful Neutral fits her better. She is a goddess of strategy and war. She is disciplined, no doubt about that. But she also A) turned Arachne into a spider because of her arrogance, B) Promised to make Paris the wisest man on earth if he would just declare her the most beautiful, and C) Transformed her own priestess (and her 2 sisters) into hideous monsters because one of them got raped by a god (Poseidon) in Athena's temple.

Hera I would also categorize as Lawful Neutral. Hercules:tLJ does a poor representation of Hera, despite its good rep of Hades. Hera's portfolio is marriage, and she never cheats on hers. She's a little vindictive and spiteful, but only towards examples (or offspring) of her husband's infidelity. Hera has also been known to be charitable and giving at times (she was very generous and helpful to Jason on his quest). There's nothing really Chaotic about her.

Tyche is almost the embodiment of Chaotic Neutral. She is seen as fickle and capricious. She is blind fortune, responsible for seemingly random windfalls of good luck, as well as natural disasters that seem to have no other cause.

I don't know if Aphrodite is Chaotic Good. She may be. She walks a line between CG and CN. Either one of those may be a good call.

Apollo, Ares, Demeter, Hephaestus, Hermes, Poseidon, and Hecate I agree with entirely.

Most of the Greek Pantheon is not good. But very few are actually EVIL, either. Usually Evil is found in the lesser deities (Hecate, Eris, etc.). Of the 13 Olympian deities, the only ones of Good alignment, unquestionably are Apollo, Demeter, Hermes, Hepheastus, and Hestia (NG). Aphrodite and Athena are questionable, but I would place them as Neutral on the Good/Evil axis. Hades is certainly not evil, however.

Even most of the lesser deities are Neutral. Nemesis would be LN, Iris TN, Eos, Helios, Selene all TN. The Greek pantheon was more about gods who were selfish and capricious, who could be placated with worship. Few and far between were divine beings who were feared as evil. Even Ares (CE) was still very much worshiped and honored by those who wanted his blessings in battle.

[Clistenes]

Disagree with several choices here. One of them is one of my chief pet peeves about depictions of Greek deities. That being...why make Hades evil? Just because he's a god of the dead? Nothing about the mythology of Hades says "evil". Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and the Percy Jackson books (not movies) did the best representations of him IMHO. Hades should either be Neutral or Lawful Neutral. He punished those who transgressed in life because it was his JOB. He also facilitated those who were worthy to going to the Elysian fields. And for those who mention the kidnapping of Persephone...I don't think a valid judgement about alignment can be made based on ANYONE'S actions while under the effect of one of Eros/Cupid's arrows. That's right, Hades was shot by Eros, saw Persephone, and nabbed her. While she was surprised at first, she eventually grew very fond of Hades. He kept her in the Elysian Fields, gave her riches and jewels, and she was kind of into him. And he very much loves his wife, she's even convinced him to bend on his harsh rules a few times (Orpheus, for example). Nothing about Hades is evil.

Zeus...Neutral seems apropos...Hard to say. He certainly exhibits a lot of Chaotic behaviors, and while he is sometimes benevolent, he is other times very selfish. I would normally go with CG/CN for that one, but he seems so wishy-washy that TN may be a good call.

Artemis I would almost certainly call Chaotic Neutral. She appreciates wild nature, and is more concerned with her own independence and purity, and...oh, yeah...she MURDERS men without whisper of conscience.

Athena COULD be Lawful Good, but I'd say Lawful Neutral fits her better. She is a goddess of strategy and war. She is disciplined, no doubt about that. But she also A) turned Arachne into a spider because of her arrogance, B) Promised to make Paris the wisest man on earth if he would just declare her the most beautiful, and C) Transformed her own priestess (and her 2 sisters) into hideous monsters because one of them got raped by a god (Poseidon) in Athena's temple.

Hera I would also categorize as Lawful Neutral. Hercules:tLJ does a poor representation of Hera, despite its good rep of Hades. Hera's portfolio is marriage, and she never cheats on hers. She's a little vindictive and spiteful, but only towards examples (or offspring) of her husband's infidelity. Hera has also been known to be charitable and giving at times (she was very generous and helpful to Jason on his quest). There's nothing really Chaotic about her.

Tyche is almost the embodiment of Chaotic Neutral. She is seen as fickle and capricious. She is blind fortune, responsible for seemingly random windfalls of good luck, as well as natural disasters that seem to have no other cause.

I don't know if Aphrodite is Chaotic Good. She may be. She walks a line between CG and CN. Either one of those may be a good call.

Apollo, Ares, Demeter, Hephaestus, Hermes, Poseidon, and Hecate I agree with entirely.

Most of the Greek Pantheon is not good. But very few are actually EVIL, either. Usually Evil is found in the lesser deities (Hecate, Eris, etc.). Of the 13 Olympian deities, the only ones of Good alignment, unquestionably are Apollo, Demeter, Hermes, Hepheastus, and Hestia (NG). Aphrodite and Athena are questionable, but I would place them as Neutral on the Good/Evil axis. Hades is certainly not evil, however.

Even most of the lesser deities are Neutral. Nemesis would be LN, Iris TN, Eos, Helios, Selene all TN. The Greek pantheon was more about gods who were selfish and capricious, who could be placated with worship. Few and far between were divine beings who were feared as evil. Even Ares (CE) was still very much worshiped and honored by those who wanted his blessings in battle.

About Hecate, her portrayal as a "dark" deity is mostly due to people who didn't worship her. Her worshippers from Anatolia had a very positive view of her as a great goddess who ruled Earth, Heaven and the Underworld...

[Darth Ultron]

Disagree with several choices here.

Well, as the question is about Planescape, that list is the official list of the alignments of the Greek Parthenon. So you can 'disagree', but that is what the rules say.

Also, your making the classic snap shot alignment mistake.

In the Planescape mythology, parthenon's like the Greek one have been around for thousands of years. Lets just say ''5,000 years''. Ok, now take every myth you know, and add every TV show, movie, novel, comic book and such together. All that together, won't even equal a year in the life. so what did they do for the other 4,999 years? It is unknown.

But you will cherry pick the dozen or so myths and stories you know and say ''the book is wrong they are this alignment''. And it might even be true if the only myths and stories were only the ones you personally knew of and thought were right. See the snap shot problem?

[Mechalich]

It's perfectly reasonable to disagree with deity placements, we're talking about a set of value judgments made almost exclusively by Colin McComb in 1996 (although a number of deities had received alignments via earlier sources), so you're basically talking about disagreeing with one person's opinion twenty years ago.

The issue is not those decisions themselves, it's the resulting choice cascade that followed from them. The placement of those deities informed (and to some extent still informs) material written about the Planescape setting from the point of those initial choices onward, and once you start changing things you have to change other things in consequence. In Planescape the Powers are power players, and they have significant influence over the planes they occupy. So if you choose to make Hades Lawful Neutral and move him to Mechanus, you've changed the dynamics of at least two planes in a substantiate way and now you have Guvners who talk about the 'immutable law of death' form an alliance with the Dustmen and so forth.

If you want to do that for your campaign knock yourself out, it might even be a fun idea (I actually think a Guvner-Dustmen alliance would be awesome and makes for a great Wightocalypse hook). However, if you want to play in the shared setting as accepted by other people, you have to acknowledge that ideas don't exist in isolation and you have to accept the ones you don't like along with the one's you do. Not that plenty of people, even professional writers of shared universe fiction, find this incredibly frustrating and that's one of the reasons why shared universes suffer endless alternate realities, reboots, and other twists.

[Ravian]

I can see what people say about judging gods from a handful of myths, but conversely I think it's relevant since the myths are the only source we have on the gods behavior.

I'm a hard core mythology buff, so I think it is relevant to consider what the myths would say about these gods and the nature of their worship. This second part is particularly relevant. The stories told about the gods certainly would have an effect on their depiction, but just as relevant is how their worshipers also regarded them.

For example, let's take Aphrodite. She has a few myths associated with her: She had Adonis as a lover, who she loved enough to negotiate his partial release from the underworld. She tempted Paris with Helen of Troy, starting the Trojan war. She set tasks for Psyche before she could marry her son Eros. Kind of sparse compared to some gods, but not a terrible record as gods go, with the Trojan war likely being the worst offender.

However, we need to consider how she was actually worshiped by the Greeks. And in general, they saw her as dangerous. The Ancient Greeks didn't really hold sexual love in the highest of esteem. Plato himself sorted it as an inferior form of love compared to things such as the platonic love between good friends of the same gender. This was mostly because the Greeks considered sexual love to drive men to madness, causing their passions to run roughshod over their sense of reason. This is again why Aphrodite and Ares were closely associated. They both represented dangerous passions and the Greeks distrusted.

Knowing this role that Aphrodite played in the Greek pantheon, as this dangerous inciter of passions and temptress, is why it's difficult to picture her as Chaotic Good.

I could easily imagine a Succubus serving Aphrodite, as the Greek image of sexual love wasn't wholly incompatible with the lusts that they prey upon. A Aphroitian Succubus would likely still hold different opinions about love and lust than non-worshiping Succubi (They would likely see the emotions they sparked as a thing of beauty, even while they used them to manipulate their victim, where Regular Succubi would rarely consider their temptations beyond how they served their own needs and desires.) Conversely, a Neutral Good Guardinal is more difficult to imagine serving Aphrodite, as ultimately they would likely see the love she encouraged to be too dangerous as it commonly deprives its victims of their minds and senses.

As for the "Canon" of AD&D. I'm not going to make judgments on the writers, but it's clear that they came at the project from the perspective of game design, rather than a focus on ensuring an entirely authentic mythology. I won't fault them for not studying every mythology in-depth while they considered the alignments of deities that already resisted such neat little boxes.

But that also doesn't mean that the setting is going to fall apart because some of the gods drift a little from Canon. I'm not making Asmodeus Chaotic Good here, I'm just trying to give the actual mythologies a little more authenticity because it's something that I know my players would appreciate because they enjoy that sort of realism.

[RedMage125]

Well, as the question is about Planescape, that list is the official list of the alignments of the Greek Parthenon. So you can 'disagree', but that is what the rules say.

Also, your making the classic snap shot alignment mistake.

In the Planescape mythology, parthenon's like the Greek one have been around for thousands of years. Lets just say ''5,000 years''. Ok, now take every myth you know, and add every TV show, movie, novel, comic book and such together. All that together, won't even equal a year in the life. so what did they do for the other 4,999 years? It is unknown.

But you will cherry pick the dozen or so myths and stories you know and say ''the book is wrong they are this alignment''. And it might even be true if the only myths and stories were only the ones you personally knew of and thought were right. See the snap shot problem?

I've always had a problem with the D&D "official" alignments for many of the Greek deities.

Hades especially. Hades has ALWAYS been depicted as an Evil alignment, either LE or NE. Neither of which makes any sense given the background in mythology.

I based all of my examples strictly off the mythology, citing other books/tv shows only as good or bad examples of depictions of those deities. Hercules:tLJ, for example (and the short movies that preceded the series) depicted Hades as a totally normal looking guy. He was also fairly reasonable when dealing with his nephew (Hercules and the Underworld is a great highlight of this). And yet, the same series depicts Hera as some all-powerful monster woman who hurls lightning bolts and divine fire, and has a church dedicated to ruling the world with her as the supreme deity, none of which is supported by any of the mythology.

Like I said near the end of my post...by and large, the Greek Pantheon is mostly Neutral on the Good/Evil axis, and many are Chaotic. There are few that would constitute "Good" by D&D morality standards, and even those that largely do have one or two instances of cruel or selfish behavior (like when Apollo killed that woman's 14 children due to her pride and boasting). Aphrodite herself wanted Psyche to fall in love with an ugly man, because other people said Psyche was more beautiful than her. Eros accidentally nicked himself with his own arrow when following that order, and the tests that followed were about Psyche proving herself worthy of Aphrodite's son. Not evil behavior, certainly, but selfish and prideful. Aphrodite just doesn't have much in the way of selfless acts of generosity, either. Apollo liked to inspire artists and create beauty, and he made his Oracle accessible to mortals.

Hephaestus and Hestia are about the only two that are solidly "Good" by D&D standards, with nothing selfish or cruel to their names in mythology. Even Demeter was willing to plunge the world into winter out of personal grief, and then out of spite after she had to share time with her daughter (a daughter who WANTED to spend half the year with her husband). Demeter getting to see her daughter was more important than what her daughter wanted, but she's otherwise got a perfect record of being "Good". Even Hermes I could see being CN instead of CG. He enjoys pranks and mischief, he IS the patron of liars and thieves (and lawyers), but is otherwise not malicious at all.

I understand that there are "official" alignments for the D&D pantheon. But a lot of those alignment assignations are about assigning "Good" alignments to deities that have portfolios suitable to PCs, and "Evil" to deities that are "creepy", like Hades. Many D&D pantheons only have Evils deities of Death, and 5e is still guilty of that. The Death Domain for clerics seems more suited to a character who wants to do harm and cause destruction. A "proper" Hades (sticking with mythology) is more like FR's Kelemvor than Bhaal or Myrkul. I would actually imagine Hades' faith in a D&D setting would be opposed to undead, because they steal souls from his realm.

I think, for the OP, that there's a little bit of "hypocrisy" in-universe. Deities are not "forced" to be in realms that match their alignment. And especially if one makes Zeus Chaotic Good (supported by 3e's Deities and Demigods), then, as head of the pantheon, it's really just his alignment that dictates which plane Mt. Olympus sits on. Most of the other deities are NG, CG, or CN, so it's not too difficult for them to be there. The Lawful and/or Evil deities may have smaller domains on other planes, but Olympus is where they meet to discuss things. Ares, for example, could have a domain in Acheron or Gehenna, where there is endless battle, but come to Olympus when the other gods want to discuss something; and Athena may have a small home in Mechanus or Celestia and likewise come to Olympus when called.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, also keep in mind ''one story'' does not make an alignment. Just as ''Bob killed Fred'' does not make Bob Chaotic Evil. And this is even more true when your talking about like ''three stories'' that take place in the 5,000 year life span (so far) of the god.

Yes, but you are going to have to try VERY hard to justify Apollo trying to rape people right and left. Daphne and the others probably weren't running away and praying for help because he wanted to read his newest poem to them...


He also facilitated those who were worthy to going to the Elysian fields. And for those who mention the kidnapping of Persephone...I don't think a valid judgement about alignment can be made based on ANYONE'S actions while under the effect of one of Eros/Cupid's arrows. That's right, Hades was shot by Eros, saw Persephone, and nabbed her. While she was surprised at first, she eventually grew very fond of Hades. He kept her in the Elysian Fields, gave her riches and jewels, and she was kind of into him. And he very much loves his wife, she's even convinced him to bend on his harsh rules a few times (Orpheus, for example). Nothing about Hades is evil.

This is a very modern interpretation or morality, but I think that any god that KIDNAPS AND RAPES HIS UNDERAGE NIECE is probably going to be on the evil side of things. If not him, then certainly Eros. Even if you take into account that the Ancient Greeks had a far different morality then we do, it does have the issue of trying to adapt behaviors that were considered alright in their eyes and considered very reprehensible to modern day folks.

Given the issue that there are going to multiple versions of any single god (That sometimes go so confusing that it is theorized that people would just assume that the different stories were in fact, different gods, leading to instances like Aphrodite Ouranos/Aphrodite Pandemos or Loki/Utgard-Loki), even going by the mythology is going to be confusing and difficult. Throw in cases like Hecate or Seth where it seems that foreign gods were stolen and changed and well, you have a problem. Then you get into the issue of gods being welded together and then you have a 10 hour argument on your hands.

Hence why I think a sensible DM would clearly lay out who THEIR interpretation of the gods are. Doesn't matter what history, current religion, or TV shows say, this is the DM's version of them. Aphrodite as a sailing goddess? Why not! Baldur as a mortal man fighting over a woman with his brother? Sure! Juno as a hunting goddess? Can do! Just do something interesting with it.

[hamishspence]

It is true that most sympathetic portrayals of Hades portray Persephone's "kidnapping" as something the two cooked up between them (or Demeter exaggerating -"empty nest syndrome").

In Jim Butcher's Dresden Files (Skin Game) , in Mercedes Lackey's Five Hundred Kingdoms series (short story in Harvest Moon anthology), and P.C. Cast's Goddess Summoning series (Goddess of Spring), Hades is portrayed sympathetically, and in all of these, the kidnapping is explained away in some fashion - probably because playing the kidnapping straight, just wouldn't work for modern readers.


Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson's Greek Gods comes closest to playing it straight - and even then, it makes a point of how , after the kidnapping, Hades spent ages winning Persephone's love, and not just going straight to "I'm a husband now and I have rights".


As TV Tropes points out, even at the time, there was considerable variance in different versions of the same tale:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/ClassicalMythology

[Clistenes]

Refresh my memory... in Planescape, does the whole Babylonian pantheon dwell in Anu's realm in Mechanus, or did they have their own realm each?

Also, if I were to use Dragon Magazine #329's version of the Mesopotamian pantheon:

-Adad (Ramman) (CN)
-Anu (LN)
-Belet-ili (Ninhursag) (NG)
-Ea (Enki) (LG)
-Enlil (LN)
-Ereshkigal (LE)
-Ishtar (Inanna) (CN)
-Marduk (LG)
-Nergal (CE)
-Ninurta (NG)
-Shamash (Utu) (LG)
-Sin (Nanna) (N)

Which plane would you locate the pantheon in? Or would you send them to a different realm each?

[RickAllison]

Just as a thought on Aphrodite, maybe the reason she is recorded as Good is because she appears to everyone who would give her a bad review and makes them fall in love with her/gives them love. Considering she started the Trojan War for an apple, persuading historians to put her up a few notches in the Good bracket is not out of the question.

[Darth Ultron]

Refresh my memory... in Planescape, does the whole Babylonian pantheon dwell in Anu's realm in Mechanus, or did they have their own realm each?

No.

Anu (LN) Mechanus
Anshar (CE) Pandemonium
Druaga (LE) Battor
Girru (LG) Mount Celestia
Ishtar (N) Elysium
Marduk (LN) Arcadia
Nergal (NE) Gray Waste
Ramman (N) Outlands

Enlil (NG) Elysium
Enki (LN) *dead*
Inanna (LE) Baator
Ki (N) Elysium
Nanna-Sin (CG) Elysium
Nin-Hursag (N) Elysium
Utu (CG) Arborea

Almost every Planescape pantheon is spread across the Outer Planes.

[Clistenes]

No.

Anu (LN) Mechanus
Anshar (CE) Pandemonium
Druaga (LE) Battor
Girru (LG) Mount Celestia
Ishtar (N) Elysium
Marduk (LN) Arcadia
Nergal (NE) Gray Waste
Ramman (N) Outlands

Enlil (NG) Elysium
Enki (LN) *dead*
Inanna (LE) Baator
Ki (N) Elysium
Nanna-Sin (CG) Elysium
Nin-Hursag (N) Elysium
Utu (CG) Arborea

Almost every Planescape pantheon is spread across the Outer Planes.

Thank you.

Mmmm... so, if I were to use Dragon Magazine's version of the pantheon, I guess I should move Adad to the Air Elemental Plane, Anu to Arcadia, Belet-ili to Amoria, Ea to Lunia (to the Silver Sea), Enlil to Mechanus, Ereshkigal to Baator, Ishtar to Ysgard, Marduk to Mertion, Nergal to the Abyss, Ninurta to Shurrock, Shamash to Solania and Sin to the Outlands or the Astral Plane...