Evading divination and finding creatures with divination

[ericgrau]

Hiding in a cave and evading divination vs. trying to locate creatures is becoming a major re-occurring plot issue in my campaign. Besides scry and non-detection, what are some other ways to avoid being found and to find a creature? (including those attempting to use abjurations to hide).

Thanks in advance.

[sir_argo]

Well, one of the best ways to avoid detection is to not be on the same plane of existence. Most forms of divination require the target to be on the same plane. As for actual magic to conceal you, try Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. For 24 hours, no sensors can appear within the boundaries.

[Cespenar]

If your setting has stuff like wild magic zones, dead magic zones, or Faerzress (Underdark), hiding in such areas could be an option.

[zeek0]

Homebrewing an item, additional spell, or even a creature might not be out of the question.

[LudicSavant]

Locate Object is pretty good at finding stuff even if you're trying to hide from detection. It ignores stealth, invisibility, illusions, creatures shielded from divinations (just search for something of theirs, not the creature themselves. Casting Nondetection on all your stuff is a lot harder than just casting it on yourself, and technically you target yourself rather than the object in question), and it can find big lead boxes (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/03/can-you-use-locate-object-to-locate-a-lead-box/) people use to hide from divination (even if it can't find things inside said lead boxes).

It also covers a huge area (when you combine the distance you can move in 10 minutes with the large radius), and can determine precise locations (Knowing direction from 2+ points is sufficient to triangulate exact position for anyone who knows geometry, or has good spatial reasoning).

The requirement, of course, is that you need to ask for the right object (either a specific one or a general type which will find the person you want and not others).

[Biggstick]

Attempt to acquire an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location. That'd save you tons on spell slots while trying to avoid someone scrying you.

[Toofey]

Detective work. Gather clues by asking interested parties, inspect places you know they've been for, ask everyone who could have seen them what they saw, etc...

[RSP]

Mind Blank, if you're into shutting down Divination spells for 24 hours...

[LudicSavant]

Being immune to divination spells doesn't make your stuff immune to divination spells, which means that you can probably still use Locate Object on someone who has used Mind Blank.

[King539]

Nondetection?

[RSP]

Being immune to divination spells doesn't make your stuff immune to divination spells, which means that you can probably still use Locate Object on someone who has used Mind Blank.

I'd say 5e has been pretty consistent with stuff on a character being likewise protected by what the character is protected by.

You can't interact with items on another character like you can something abandoned.

Maybe my tables are in the minority, but I've never seen a DM damage items and gear with AoEs, likewise, I've never seen a character's items damaged even though the character themself was immune to a damage type.
To me, at least, the RAI are pretty clear that Mind Blank and Nondetection would prevent such things as "I target jim's shirt with my Scrying."

Your table may see it differently though.

[LudicSavant]

I'd say 5e has been pretty consistent with stuff on a character being likewise protected by what the character is protected by. I see no such rule in the books, nor any statement of RAI from any dev.


Maybe my tables are in the minority, but I've never seen a DM damage items and gear with AoEs Damaging AoEs specifically do not damage attended objects. Locate Object is not a damaging AoE.

[ericgrau]

So is mind blank pretty reliable? Or is there a way to pierce it? We'll say mind blank on a naked person living in a cave for the sake of argument. The hunters don't know anything about the cave so they don't know to look for it, but they might know something about the person hiding in the cave.

Scenario 2: The hunters know a prized possession of the naked person hiding in the cave. That item is in the cave with him. What are the ways to find it? The ways to protect the item against divination?

"Hunters" just means people searching, via divination or however.

In my world planar travel is actually an easy option available to just about anyone with the persistence & time. Provided that they are on the same side as any planar gatekeeper or else can fight/trick their way through a gate. But there are only a handful of planes and the hunters can travel to each one systematically and then cast a divination. There are pocket dimensions such as bags of holding, but they run out of air. There are magical air sources. But the number of creatures hiding outnumbers such objects. And low level & low wealth divination/hiding-from-divination is also a concern.

[RSP]

I see no such rule in the books, nor any statement of RAI from any dev.

Damaging AoEs specifically do not damage attended objects. Locate Object is not a damaging AoE.

Just telling you what I believe the intent is: it's pretty pointless to have a spell protect you from Divination if any spell can just target your underwear instead. I doubt anyone designing a game would say "let's make these spells that do nothing other than protect against Divination, not actually protect against Divination." I mean why would any caster ever target an actual person and not just target "the articles of clothes he's currently wearing?"

It's like saying "you're immune to fire damage, unless the damage involves rolling a die."

But play the game the way you think it's fun.

[RSP]

So is mind blank pretty reliable? Or is there a way to pierce it? We'll say mind blank on a naked person living in a cave for the sake of argument. The hunters don't know anything about the cave so they don't know to look for it, but they might know something about the person hiding in the cave.

Scenario 2: The hunters know a prized possession of the naked person hiding in the cave. That item is in the cave with him. What are the ways to find it? The ways to protect the item against divination?

"Hunters" just means people searching, via divination or however.

In my world planar travel is actually an easy option available to just about anyone with the persistence & time. Provided that they are on the same side as any planar gatekeeper or else can fight/trick their way through a gate. But there are only a handful of planes and the hunters can travel to each one systematically and then cast a divination. There are pocket dimensions such as bags of holding, but they run out of air. There are magical air sources. But the number of creatures hiding outnumbers such objects. And low level & low wealth divination/hiding-from-divination is also a concern.

I would imagine 99% of tables would have Mind Blank protect the individual and what they're carrying. Unattended items would be fair game, though (which is where the spell Nondetection may come in).

For the 1% that believe clothes being worn are fair game, Mind Blank would still exclude the Mind Blank'd individual from Perception from Scrying and the such: you wouldn't be able to hear them talking, for example.

[ericgrau]

Are there ways to divine someone hiding in a pocket dimension created by a spell such as Mordenkain's private sanctum? Does 5e have something like 3.5e's discern location?

Of course detect magic works if you're close, but first you have to find the cave.

Is there any way to pierce a sequester spell? Assuming you have met the creature before, and know general information about him.

Mind blank says that it foils even wish. I don't see anything specific about finding a creature in the description of wish, other than the ability to do anything. Are the effects that are pierce-able by wish basically up to the DM?

[LudicSavant]

Are there ways to divine someone hiding in a pocket dimension created by a spell such as Mordenkain's private sanctum? Does 5e have something like 3.5e's discern location?

Of course detect magic works if you're close, but first you have to find the cave.

Is there any way to pierce a sequester spell? Assuming you have met the creature before, and know general information about him.

Mind blank says that it foils even wish. I don't see anything specific about finding a creature in the description of wish, other than the ability to do anything. Are the effects that are pierce-able by wish basically up to the DM?

If I was going to look for someone who had been Sequestered, I'd try to think of any indirect abilities that could help me gather clues which might allow me to deduce their location. Targeting things other than the hidden creature, object, or place itself may also give away the hidden thing by association. To use a metaphor, a man may be invisible, but still leaves footprints—finding the footprints will lead you to the man. In other words, old fashioned detective work.

Besides that, Contact Other Plane, Divination, and Divine Intervention are entirely under the control of the DM, but may be able to give you information relevant to finding sequestered creatures. After all, the question in the case of those spells isn't so much whether the divination can target the creature, it's whether the being answering your spell knows anything.

[sir_argo]

If I was going to look for someone who had been Sequestered, I'd try to think of any indirect abilities that could help me gather clues which might allow me to deduce their location. Targeting things other than the hidden creature, object, or place itself may also give away the hidden thing by association. To use a metaphor, a man may be invisible, but still leaves footprints—finding the footprints will lead you to the man. In other words, old fashioned detective work.

Besides that, Contact Other Plane, Divination, and Divine Intervention are entirely under the control of the DM, but may be able to give you information relevant to finding sequestered creatures. After all, the question in the case of those spells isn't so much whether the divination can target the creature, it's whether the being answering your spell knows anything.

Legend Lore should be of use. Sequester makes the target invisible and they cannot be the target of divination spells. Legend Lore targets self only.

You could name the person and ask where the person is located. Now, the DM isn't just going to tell you point blank (pun intended) where the person is, but it ought to get you close.

[LudicSavant]

Legend Lore targets self only.

So do Locate Creature and Locate Object, incidentally.

[ericgrau]

Mind blank says specifically that it foils attempts to gather information about the target. Nondetection even says that it protects against divinations, prevents them from targeting the creature, and from being viewed with scrying sensors. If you're strict you could say the 1st item only includes the 2nd and 3rd item, but I doubt it. Likewise sequester says it makes the creature safe from detection, etc. Plus the FAQ says even spells like true seeing fail, and I'd go with that for an explanation over someone's "this is RAW" guess (actually just another interpretation). If it only said "can't be targeted by divination spells" and nothing else, from the makers of MtG no less, I'd say maybe the FAQ screwed up. But there is some vague wording open to interpretation and so you can't just assume what the intent is and be sure. You have to speculate, ask the designers via the FAQ, etc.

Thanks everyone I think I have what I need. I'm the DM so I'm just going to rule that anything used on a protected creature or his carried stuff simply fails. Scry, locate creature/object, etc. I'm going to say even nondetection works almost all the time. And even legend lore fails against a mind blank. However unattended objects, creatures near the creature, other similar indirect searching, etc. is fair game. And legend lore could still give information that was known by others in general at some point, even about someone who is now mind blanked.

That should fit pretty well into my plot too since it allows elaborate hide and seek games. No to auto find with the right divination trick, more like auto fail, but yes to detective work with the help of divination.

[sir_argo]

I brought up Legend Lore because of how it appears to work. Legend Lore pulls information from knowledge held by individuals, or spoken or written about. It doesn't appear to be getting info from the <item> itself, but rather, from the minds of everyone who knows something about the <item>; from information written down about the <item>; maybe it somehow looks backwards in time and looks at past events. If you look at the three sources of info, they are:


current tales
forgotten stories
secret lore that has never been widely known


Essentially, Legend Lore targets the people who have knowledge of the <item>... not the <item> itself.

I readily admit that this is an interpretation, but that is also why I only said, "should be of use" rather than saying it would find the <item>. It would be up to your DM if Legend Lore is blocked by spells such as Nondetection.

[Stan]

Another thing to consider is teleport or very rapid transport. 1000' for locate object/creature is great once you're in the right town. But if the search area is 100 or 1000 square miles, it's less useful.
Mundane distance doesn't stop scrying but it can be hard to learn location from a scene.

[LudicSavant]

Another thing to consider is teleport or very rapid transport. 1000' for locate object/creature is great once you're in the right town. But if the search area is 100 or 1000 square miles, it's less useful.
Mundane distance doesn't stop scrying but it can be hard to learn location from a scene.

This. The "Locate" series only works if you're in the right general neighborhood. You can search cities with it given some time, but searching larger areas becomes very difficult.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hiding in a cave and evading divination vs. trying to locate creatures is becoming a major re-occurring plot issue in my campaign. Besides scry and non-detection, what are some other ways to avoid being found and to find a creature? (including those attempting to use abjurations to hide).

Thanks in advance.

If Tomb of Horrors is any guide, you could just trot out "Powerful Magic!" or a lead barrier As the reason for divination fail.

If it's the players who want this let them do research to discover a ritual that conceals them from scrying in a particular location for something like 24 hours (i.e. they spend 10 minutes casting and whatever location they are in is considered off the grid when someone uses anything Divination related).