[3.5] Switching spontaneous and prepared rules. Balance issues?

[Valwyn]

I've been wondering, would it cause a problem to switch the rules for spontaneous and prepared casters? For example, sorcerers would get spell levels at 3rd/5th/7th etc level, no increased casting time for metamagic, etc. Wizards would get spell levels at 4th/6th/8th etc and increase the casting time of their metamagicked spells. Bards would get no early spell access but faster metamagic.

I always felt the people who naturally get spells should get them sooner and manipulate them easier than those who need to research/be enlightened/whatever to use magic. Does this make sense? Would this alter the game's balance much? I mean, wizards are still wizards, they just are a bit slower now. Druids can still wildshape. Clerics can still abuse divine metamagic.

[tedcahill2]

I don't see it causing any severe balance issues, but I'm not sure if you're reason is sound.

Sorcerer's are naturally able to wield magic, but as a result of their innate talent, they are self taught in it's use.

Wizard's are the quintessential book worms, learning their spells from books and manuals.

It would be like me trying to learning the guitar by either taking lessons and reading books, or just playing it until I learn to make music. Through enough trial and error I could learn to play a song on the guitar, but it would be faster to be taught to play the song.

That why sorcerer's lag a level behind learning higher level spells.

[Valwyn]

Well, the fluff is that magic comes naturally to sorcerers, so wouldn't they figure stuff out faster than wizards who need years of research to cast a cantrip? Sure, wizards can eventually do the same things and have more flexibility, but with all that research, I feel they should be the ones lagging behind.

Maybe it's just a fluff issue and my own bias towards spontaneous casters.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Funny cause this is relevant to my actual scenario.

Got a buddy who is self taught on drums. I took lessons when I was younger. As it stands he's better than me at what he does but I have a bigger toolbox.

[Beheld]

Why switch? Why not just all full caster classes get new spells at the same level? Level determines progression not fluff. Everyone should get spells at the same level.

[Zanos]

Wizards do technically lag behind. Their starting age is higher. :smalltongue:

That usually isn't mechanically important, but if you're basing it on fluff it's good to consider that if a wizard and sorcerer are the same age, the sorcerer is probably a higher level.

[Dracul3S]

That why sorcerer's lag a level behind learning higher level spells.

Sorcerers lag only because spontaneous spellcasting was considered to be much more powerful than prepared by the rules desingners. That's literally the only reason.

[tedcahill2]

Well, the fluff is that magic comes naturally to sorcerers, so wouldn't they figure stuff out faster than wizards who need years of research to cast a cantrip? Sure, wizards can eventually do the same things and have more flexibility, but with all that research, I feel they should be the ones lagging behind.

Maybe it's just a fluff issue and my own bias towards spontaneous casters.

Don't mistake my comments for me telling you you're wrong. We interpret it differently. I think a naturally gifted guitarist will still take longer to learn to play than someone with a teacher and years of lessons.

The trade off for taking an extra level to learn higher spells, and how it being a natural talent is reflected, is that once a sorcerer does figure out how to cast them, he's able to use it immediately more frequently than wizards.

At level 4, a wizard can prepare 2 2nd level spells. A sorcerer, who just figured out how to cast 2nd level spells, can cast 3. So it takes longer for the sorcerer to catch up on spell level, but they're immediately better at it (debatable I know) than the wizard is.

This is a bit off topic but I would like the see the sorcerer have a more expansive spell list. The wizard, through spell preparation, is able to master a limitless number of spells. The sorcerer is completely overshadowed in this regard. You would think a class based on natural magical talent would be able to cast any spell they want. I think their spells known should represent spells they have mastered, but they should otherwise be able to cast anything they want with a chance to fail based on their level.

So at level 1 they have their spells known and per day as normal, but they can also attempt to cast any 1st level spell with a 5% chance to succeed. Every level their chance to cast a 1st level spell that isn't on their known list increases by 5%. The success chance would restart for each spell level. So at level 4, 5% chance to cast any second level spell, and +5% each level there after.

There could be a feat that increases chance to cast by 5% or something.

By level 12 the sorcerer would have all their normal spells per day and known, but would also have a 60% chance to cast any 1st level spell, a 45% chance to 2nd, a 35% chance for 3rd, a 25% chance for 4th, a 15% chance for 5th, and a 5% chance for 6th.

This fits well into the sorcerer's theme. He is naturally gifted with magic, but since he's trying to figure these spells out on his own, they fizzle, a lot, if he strays away from the list of spells he's mastered (his spells known).

[Valwyn]

About the number of spells known, I think having them learn the same number as a favored soul might work better. Not as flavorful, but mechanically easier.

[Kayblis]

I believe the problem with such change is you kinda switch things the other way: why would I pick a class that not only has less spells, but ALSO learn them later AND has to choose them at the start of the day? Most people will just never touch the wizard like that. Remember, your table isn't GITP, not everyone is trying to break the game. If you tell a more casual player "okay, here I have this class that is worse at everything and has clunkier casting but has some potential", he'll just laugh and pick the only actual full arcane caster available.

Now, Clerics and Druids already know all his spells when they get to a new level, that might be a good change for them. You'd be nerfing what's already too good anyways.

[Cosi]

Why switch? Why not just all full caster classes get new spells at the same level? Level determines progression not fluff. Everyone should get spells at the same level.

Pretty much this. I don't think the flavor is compelling enough to hose one class over the other, particularly as the inherent differences between spontaneous and prepared casting are already meaningful enough. Maybe you could give the Sorcerer some class features.


About the number of spells known, I think having them learn the same number as a favored soul might work better. Not as flavorful, but mechanically easier.

Certainly. Beyond the "half a level behind for no reason" thing, the biggest weakness of the Sorcerer is that it doesn't get enough spells known to match the Wizard. Ideally, you would have things set up so that the Sorcerer's within a day versatility compared appropriately to the Wizard's between days versatility.

If I were restructuring the classes, I'd probably bump everyone up to Wizard spell access levels, and divvy up bonus Metamagic, Sudden Metamagic, Heritage, Reserve and Pre-Errata Extra Spell between the two classes. Maybe pepper in some PrC features from e.g. Mage of the Arcane Order. I think class features are a much more solid basis for creating flavor than spell progression.

[Psyren]

Balance-wise you'd just be flipping the tiers (and penalizing the folks who want to be prepared casters, which I personally think is inherently harder.) So I'll focus on this bit:



I always felt the people who naturally get spells should get them sooner and manipulate them easier than those who need to research/be enlightened/whatever to use magic. Does this make sense?

To me it doesn't - if your talent comes naturally, you have little control over how it advances, whereas Wizards can constantly be studying above their current reading level until they master something. So to me, the current paradigm where wizards advance faster makes more sense (if you must have one be faster than the other.)

It's also, as I mentioned above, a bit of a reward for the players who go with prepared casting, which requires more bookkeeping on the player's part - especially once metamagic is involved.