Wild shape at will?

[Westhart]

I had a couple of players recently want to play the ranger wild shape variant (Unearthed Arcana I believe) and asked me if there was a way so they could get wild shape usable at will. I thought there was but upon beating some books drew a blank :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Yes, there is. Divine Minion, LA +1 or +2 template, gives Outsider type, Wild Shape as druid 11th (with some limitations and differences, including at-will and indefinite duration).

There's also the Shapeshift ACF, which, while technically not Wild Shape, is at-will and similar in concept.

[ShurikVch]

3.0 variant of Animal Lord PrC (Masters of the Wild) gives at-will Lesser Wild Shape in selected animal group

[Celestia]

If you're willing to use homebrew, I made a class that does exactly that. It's called Beastblood Shifter, and it's, essentially, a 20 level version of Master of Many Forms. It gives at will shifting from level one. Check my signature for the link if you're interested.

[Gobliin]

I see 2 other way.

As a prestige class, the is the master of many form (book of the wild in 3.0 or one of the complete book for 3.5)

The is also the shifting ability from the player handbook 2 that can be adapt for the ranger. The shifting ability replace the wildshape ability from the druid to allowed himto transform at will starting at level 1.

[Venger]

I see 2 other way.

As a prestige class, the is the master of many form (book of the wild in 3.0 or one of the complete book for 3.5)

The is also the shifting ability from the player handbook 2 that can be adapt for the ranger. The shifting ability replace the wildshape ability from the druid to allowed himto transform at will starting at level 1.

the 3.0 version is called "shifter" and is from masters of the wild. eventually, it lets you wild shape at will. the 3.5 version is called master of many forms and is in complete adventurer. it never gives wild shape at will, but since you get an extra use for every level of the prc, you'll have as much as you'll realistically need.

[Necroticplague]

the 3.0 version is called "shifter" and is from masters of the wild. eventually, it lets you wild shape at will. the 3.5 version is called master of many forms and is in complete adventurer. it never gives wild shape at will, but since you get an extra use for every level of the prc, you'll have as much as you'll realistically need.

There's also Warshaper, which gets Multimorph, so you don't need to waste uses to change between different form. Combined with Wild Shape's already long duration, and it's quite conceivable to go through the whole day on only two uses.

[Venger]

There's also Warshaper, which gets Multimorph, so you don't need to waste uses to change between different form. Combined with Wild Shape's already long duration, and it's quite conceivable to go through the whole day on only two uses.

True enough. pretty much all momfs round out with that and then nature's warrior if they've got any room left through divine minion, so it's good to mention.

I think you've just stumbled upon an actual use for all those awful wild feats.

[Celestia]

There's also Warshaper, which gets Multimorph, so you don't need to waste uses to change between different form. Combined with Wild Shape's already long duration, and it's quite conceivable to go through the whole day on only two uses.
I'm not terribly a fan of that, myself. I mean, it works, but not as well as it could. The MoMF doesn't advance Wild Shape duration, making things frustrating until you get Multimorph, and Warshaper doesn't advance Wild Shape at all. So, if you go for something like Wild Shape Ranger 5/MoMF 3/Warshaper 5/MoMF or Ranger 7, you could only take forms up to 15 HD, rather than 20. It's not a huge deal, but it still bothers me. It's the main reason I made my own class for this.

[bekeleven]

I'm not terribly a fan of that, myself. I mean, it works, but not as well as it could. The MoMF doesn't advance Wild Shape duration, making things frustrating until you get Multimorph, and Warshaper doesn't advance Wild Shape at all. So, if you go for something like Wild Shape Ranger 5/MoMF 3/Warshaper 5/MoMF or Ranger 7, you could only take forms up to 15 HD, rather than 20. It's not a huge deal, but it still bothers me. It's the main reason I made my own class for this.

There are magic items to get you from 15 to 20.

[Celestia]

There are magic items to get you from 15 to 20.
You shouldn't need a magic item to give you 25% of your main shtick's functionality.

[nighteyes95]

There are magic items to get you from 15 to 20.

out of curiosity what items might those be I've had trouble finding them when I got curious after reading your post

[Dagroth]

You shouldn't need a magic item to give you 25% of your main shtick's functionality.

Tell that to the Fighter.

[eggynack]

out of curiosity what items might those be I've had trouble finding them when I got curious after reading your post
Wild shape amulet from magic of faerun is a +4 for 40k gp. Wearing all three items of the trappings of the beast from complete champion is a +1 for 52,175 gp. That price is deceptive because the ring of the beast and mantle of the beast are both very good independently. Or, at least they are on a druid. The mantle is still good on a wild shape ranger, but the ring is SNA based. Anyway, the armor, which is pretty bad, costs 26,175 gp, so I suppose that's where I'd peg the price of that ability from this item in general. Finally, the skin of kaletor from dragon magazine 324 page 75 gives a +4 for 12k gp, though there are some minor downsides for that one, in the form of penalties to charisma skill checks and wild empathy checks. Easily the best value of the three.

[Celestia]

You shouldn't need a magic item to give you 25% of your main shtick's functionality.

Tell that to the Fighter.
Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

[Bill Bisco]

An 8th level druid doesn't need to wildshape at will. They get to use it 3 times per day and it lasts 8 hours each time :) Combine with Natural Spell feat and a Pearl of Speech Magic Item and you are good to go and happy.

[Crake]

You shouldn't need a magic item to give you 25% of your main shtick's functionality.

Considering most items don't function in wildshape, i'd ask "what better to spend your money on"

[eggynack]

Considering most items don't function in wildshape, i'd ask "what better to spend your money on"
Wilding clasps?

[Venger]

ring of arming. that way you can suck all your crap in, morph, and then have it spit all your stuff back onto your body. this way you only need to buy 1 wilding clasp.

[eggynack]

ring of arming. that way you can suck all your crap in, morph, and then have it spit all your stuff back onto your body. this way you only need to buy 1 wilding clasp.
Only works for weapons and armor. Interesting alternative to wild armor though.

[Crake]

Only works for weapons and armor. Interesting alternative to wild armor though.

I actually prefer wild armor, because it lets you gain the armor bonus without the penalty of actually wearing the armor itself, meaning you can have an ally tie a monk's belt around your waist (or using a wilding clasp) and get armor AND monk AC bonus.

Putting wilding clasps on all of your gear though gets expensive, beyond the point of the whole 25% of your gear that celestia was talking about. If you simply buy gear that functions in wild shape and improves it, then you don't have to instead spend all of your money on wilding clasps. There are 10 body slots iirc, so that'd be 60k if you bought wilding clasps for all of them.

[Celestia]

This is actually another thing I fixed with my Beastblood Shifter. All magic items continue to function when you shift, regardless of your form.

[Westhart]

You guys have brought up some things I will look into... and as always, much grateful for the help. :smallsmile:
...and celestia, Love the class, need to ask if they would like that instead... (They are taking ranger and scout for the swift hunter [think that is the feat] w/ barbarian pounce)
EDIT: They want to basically wild shape as big as possible and tear enemies apart... I think you can use rage while wild shaped...

[Grod_The_Giant]

An 8th level druid doesn't need to wildshape at will. They get to use it 3 times per day and it lasts 8 hours each time :) Combine with Natural Spell feat and a Pearl of Speech Magic Item and you are good to go and happy.
Oh, sure, it's dead easy to run around in one or two forms all day, but it's so much more fun when you can change around at-will.


You guys have brought up some things I will look into... and as always, much grateful for the help. :smallsmile:
...and celestia, Love the class, need to ask if they would like that instead... (They are taking ranger and scout for the swift hunter [think that is the feat] w/ barbarian pounce)
EDIT: They want to basically wild shape as big as possible and tear enemies apart... I think you can use rage while wild shaped...
It absolutely is compatible, yeah. Scout-and-Swift-Hunter pair well with Wild Shape-- turn into a great cat of some sort to pounce for five Skirmish attacks. I touch on it in my Scout handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook) that, I guess, has elements of a Ranger handbook as well. You might look at fixing the Daggerspell Shaper PrC for them-- it's basically made for that sort of build, except that it doesn't progress HD caps and, for some reason, lets you qualify with Skirmish but only progresses Sneak Attack.

If you're looking for homebrew solutions, I have my own wild-shape-warrior class here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29&p=16914183#post16914183). It features at-will shapeshifting into a limited list of creatures (all the base animals, plus 1/level, plus a few more when you unlock Vermin, dumb Magical Beasts, and smart Magical Beasts), keeps your base stats relevant, and has class features to overcome some common wild shape issues (for example, you get to talk while wild shaped at 3rd).

[Westhart]

Hmm, now I have two good looking classes :smalleek:
although I do have a question:
Your table has or for all the sizes but in the text the only one with or is "medium or small" (see below)
"At first level, a Beastman may only select Medium or Small forms. Beginning at 5th level, he may select Large and Tiny forms. At 15th level, he gains access to Huge and Diminutive forms, and at 20th level he may select Colossal and Fine forms."
So do they get both or have to choose? or is it a path? or did I miss it and you were saying they choose which when they enter wild shape?

[Necroticplague]

Hmm, now I have two good looking classes :smalleek:
although I do have a question:
Your table has or for all the sizes but in the text the only one with or is "medium or small" (see below)
"At first level, a Beastman may only select Medium or Small forms. Beginning at 5th level, he may select Large and Tiny forms. At 15th level, he gains access to Huge and Diminutive forms, and at 20th level he may select Colossal and Fine forms."
So do they get both or have to choose? or is it a path?

They get both. At least, under the normal definition of 'or' I'm aware of, something is true as long at least one is true. So a valid form can be either Medium, or it can be Small, or it can be both. It cannot, however, be neither. Could use some bulletproofing on the wording, though.


At first level, a Beastman may only select from Medium or Small forms. Beginning at 5th level, the Beastman may also select Large or Tiny forms. Starting at 15th level, the Beastman may also select Huge or Diminutive forms, and at 20th level the Beastman may begin selecting from Colossal or Fine forms.

[Westhart]

ah yes, felt it may be that way right a few moments after posting XD
thanks for the advice though :smallsmile:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm, now I have two good looking classes :smalleek:
although I do have a question:
Your table has or for all the sizes but in the text the only one with or is "medium or small" (see below)
"At first level, a Beastman may only select Medium or Small forms. Beginning at 5th level, he may select Large and Tiny forms. At 15th level, he gains access to Huge and Diminutive forms, and at 20th level he may select Colossal and Fine forms."
So do they get both or have to choose? or is it a path? or did I miss it and you were saying they choose which when they enter wild shape?
Necroticplague is correct-- at first level they can pick Medium forms, Small forms, or anything in between.

[Westhart]

alright sorry for the slightly stupid question :smallbiggrin:

[Celestia]

You guys have brought up some things I will look into... and as always, much grateful for the help. :smallsmile:
...and celestia, Love the class, need to ask if they would like that instead... (They are taking ranger and scout for the swift hunter [think that is the feat] w/ barbarian pounce)
EDIT: They want to basically wild shape as big as possible and tear enemies apart... I think you can use rage while wild shaped...
Thanks. It's one of my favorite ones. :smallsmile:

And my class certainly does that. It allows you to eventually reach colossal forms through normal advancement, and once you have that, you can take the feat Kaiju Shifting to become colossal+.

[Grod_The_Giant]

alright sorry for the slightly stupid question :smallbiggrin:
No worries, mate. Glad you liked the class!

[bekeleven]

Beastblood shifter will bust a low-op campaign right open. It's tier 2 on a bad day.

[Celestia]

Beastblood shifter will bust a low-op campaign right open. It's tier 2 on a bad day.
Okay, but that's not a bad thing.

[eggynack]

Beastblood shifter will bust a low-op campaign right open. It's tier 2 on a bad day.
Prolly still tier two even in a higher optimization scenario. Such is the nature of access to casting starting at 7th or 8th so, unless I'm missing something (probably not).

[Celestia]

Prolly still tier two even in a higher optimization scenario. Such is the nature of access to casting starting at 7th or 8th so, unless I'm missing something (probably not).
?

I feel like I'm missing something. The Beastblood Shifter doesn't get casting.

[eggynack]

?

I feel like I'm missing something. The Beastblood Shifter doesn't get casting.
There're some monstrous humanoids from MM V, particularly the hobgoblin warsoul and kuo-toa exalted whip, that get some casting as an extraordinary special quality. Beastblood shifter looks like it gets those. Those two have ten HD, and get casting pretty close to the HD count. Warsoul in particular casts as a 9th level wizard, so a 10th level beastblood shifter acts a whole lot like one of those, even if you then fall behind that mark. Hobgoblin warcaster has 4 HD and 4th level wizard casting, so that comes online at 7th level when you first get those forms. You probably don't fall behind though. By 10th level you have the supernatural abilities of all magical beasts, tiny to huge, up to 10 HD, as well as of a number of other types that I'd expect to be less relevant. I don't know what that means, exactly, because I haven't checked every book in the entire game for nearly all the abilities of nearly all monsters, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't approximate casting with what you get. I do know that at 13th level you get aberrations meaning access to a beholder's eye rays, as well as the eye rays of a bunch of wacky beholder variants. So that's pretty good. You can shift at-will as a swift action, so any of that casting approximation can be accessed more or less freely. It could be straight tier one by 10th level for all I know.

Edit: Note that the restriction to once/day/ability doesn't really do much for the 18th level SLA thing. The siabrie, among what are likely others, gets shapechange among its SLA's.

Double-edit: Oh jeez, missed the feat section. Thought you couldn't become an outsider. Add on access to stuff like wish or astral projection starting at the exact point you take that feat, though the wish has genie style limits. Can still have party members wish for stuff.

[Celestia]

There're some monstrous humanoids from MM V, particularly the hobgoblin warsoul and kuo-toa exalted whip, that get some casting as an extraordinary special quality. Beastblood shifter looks like it gets those. Those two have ten HD, and get casting pretty close to the HD count. Warsoul in particular casts as a 9th level wizard, so a 10th level beastblood shifter acts a whole lot like one of those, even if you then fall behind that mark. Hobgoblin warcaster has 4 HD and 4th level wizard casting, so that comes online at 7th level when you first get those forms. You probably don't fall behind though. By 10th level you have the supernatural abilities of all magical beasts, tiny to huge, up to 10 HD, as well as of a number of other types that I'd expect to be less relevant. I don't know what that means, exactly, because I haven't checked every book in the entire game for nearly all the abilities of nearly all monsters, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't approximate casting with what you get. I do know that at 13th level you get aberrations meaning access to a beholder's eye rays, as well as the eye rays of a bunch of wacky beholder variants. So that's pretty good. You can shift at-will as a swift action, so any of that casting approximation can be accessed more or less freely. It could be straight tier one by 10th level for all I know.

Edit: Note that the restriction to once/day/ability doesn't really do much for the 18th level SLA thing. The siabrie, among what are likely others, gets shapechange among its SLA's.

Double-edit: Oh jeez, missed the feat section. Thought you couldn't become an outsider. Add on access to stuff like wish or astral projection starting at the exact point you take that feat, though the wish has genie style limits. Can still have party members wish for stuff.
Well that's clearly just a mistake. Innate spellcasting is normally a natural ability and, therefore, cannot ever be acquired by the Beastblood Shifter. I shouldn't have to balance my class around a poor editing job in one book. And aren't beholder eye rays spell-likes? I could be wrong on that, though.

And that's a problem with Shapechange, not my class. If the DM actually allows a Beastblood Shifter to get Shapechange as an SLA then surely the casters are getting it, too, and they can abuse it worse. The restriction does still do something, though. Yes, Shapechange bypasses it, but Shapechange, itself, is subject to it. You get that for one battle. A wizard can prepare it in all his spell slots.

Yeah, I'll admit that turning into outsiders is powerful, but the minimum level you're getting it is 18. If you spend two feats on it. I don't see the problem there.

[eggynack]

Well that's clearly just a mistake. Innate spellcasting is normally a natural ability and, therefore, cannot ever be acquired by the Beastblood Shifter. I shouldn't have to balance my class around a poor editing job in one book. And aren't beholder eye rays spell-likes? I could be wrong on that, though.
Eh, it's structured differently from most casting even beyond the difference in ability type. Also, innate spellcasting ain't clearly normally anything. It's basically always completely unmentioned what the ability type is, and the only reason it very likely is natural is by way of crazy rules arguments that pull from multiple books. This isn't them putting down an ability type different from what is typical. It's them giving an explicit type at all, which is itself weird.


And that's a problem with Shapechange, not my class. If the DM actually allows a Beastblood Shifter to get Shapechange as an SLA then surely the casters are getting it, too, and they can abuse it worse. The restriction does still do something, though. Yes, Shapechange bypasses it, but Shapechange, itself, is subject to it. You get that for one battle. A wizard can prepare it in all his spell slots.
It's a problem with both. That's kinda my point. Form changing is problematic. More than you'd expect. More than anyone expects, even after discovering again and again how fundamentally problematic it is. You're acting like these things are just editing errors. Scattered issues that I'm bringing up to poke holes in an otherwise perfectly reasonable thing. They're not. Not really. They're a consequence of a bunch of people all over the place coming up with interesting and creating monster ideas and filling books with them. They're a consequence of those selfsame people not recognizing that these abilities are accessible by way of some ability in some book someone else wrote, or, hell, will write, and thus not even starting to consider balancing for that fact. All these people with wacky and disparate design philosophies, which means a wide variety of crazy to choose from. Jeez, just look at the dire tortoise. Yes, it has that weird always acting in the surprise round thing, which is crazy. Even crazier though is that it's inexplicably a special attack. That's so weird.

Lemme put it this way. If you haven't already, check out the aberration wild shape section of my druid handbook, and if you have, maybe look anyway, cause it's fundamental to the point I'm making. It's 22 pages, essentially devoted to one basic fact; a druid is capable of acquiring the extraordinary special qualities of aberrations. Sure, there's the occasional entry that's like, "Weirdly enough, you don't need enhance wild shape this time," but they're rare. One creature type, one ability type, 22 pages. What would you expect to happen when that's opened up to a massive quantity of other creatures, as well as supernatural abilities? Not a rhetorical question, because I have literally no idea. But a good first order approximation is more than either you or I think.

[bekeleven]

I wrote the first draft of The Shifter in 2006 and I think it's possible that I know almost all wild shape shenannigans in official 3.5 products at this point.

Nothing is worse than the shaedling out of MM5. That's Fey type, 4HD, and uses EX SA.

[eggynack]

I wrote the first draft of The Shifter in 2006 and I think it's possible that I know almost all wild shape shenannigans in official 3.5 products at this point.

Nothing is worse than the shaedling out of MM5. That's Fey type, 4HD, and uses EX SA.
It definitely seems great in the earlier parts of the game. Su abilities at level 10 could be seriously problematic in a way that traditional wild shape generally isn't.

[Westhart]

Well, seeing that most of them are new to the game and I am an old optimizer it should be fine... they might even keep up now :smallbiggrin:
To celestia and Grod: Thin now to be fair I will have each play one :smallsmile:
The problems are fine, and I will deal with any that do come up... besides, it is epic campaign and one is a heavly optimized wizard.
So thank you all for your help.
Oh, (this is off topic) does anyone have a capstone idea for a master enchanter class.... sorry for going off :smallredface:

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno, I've been flicking through the SRD, and there are a lot of scary Su abilities available by mid to high levels. Aboleths get Dominate Person. Nymphs get an at-will save-or-stun. Will-o-the-Wisps get magic Immunity. Blink Dogs get free action Dimension Door. Ethereal Mauraders get to go, well, Ethereal. Rust Monsters neutralize warriors. Basilisks, Medusa, and Gorgons get to turn people to stone. This all took about ten minutes, on my phone, to find and record, mind you.

It's a crazy strong class even without the (Su) part; with it you can easily blow even a mid-op caster out of the water.

[Celestia]

<snip>
In the interest of not derailing this thread further, I have brought the discussion of my class to my homebrew thread. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509313-Princess-Celestia-s-Homebrew-Corner&p=21887880&viewfull=1#post21887880)