Ninjas - what ways can you deny foes their Dex bonus? [3.5/PF]

[Aotrs Commander]

One of my players - who is just starting back in D&D after the last thing he played was AD&D - is looking at playing a ninja.

We are playing Shackled City (set to be on Golarion) and I am conscious that, with the outsiders in the later parts of the modules, that things like True Seeing (sometimes constant) are going to largely obviate invisibility, thus rendering the ninja's Sudden Strike less effective by nullifying the primary method of denying the target their Dex.

So, what I'm looking for suggestions on is other ways he could use to deny targets their Dexterity bonus as a back-up.

The solutions need to be fairly simple if possible (i.e., without, like, three or four different multiclasses), so the player doesn't have too much to work on.

The party is currently level 3 - and the projected adventure path should take them to 20th/low epic, depending. (I convert/tweak and scale up (party size tends to be 7-8 characters) APs in chunks, so I won't know for sure until I'm starting to prepare the last chunk.)



We play a heavily house-ruled set, basically 3.5, but with a lot of aspects of Pathfinder; long story short, pretty much all the feats and spells out of the non-world-specific splat books, PrCs on a case-by-case basis. I am not adverse to nicking stuff from Pathfinder either. We have recently - because I am running a lot of PF adventure paths - switched the monster stats to be more-or-less PF standard, instead of 3.5.



The last time I had a ninja character in the party, it was a ninja/rogue/inivisible blade/ swordsage - so I know that invisible blade is one possibility, as the bluff boosts in that class make feinting one option - though with a lot of outsiders having Sense Motive, it still might not be hugely reliable. (It also ties him to daggers for that and I think he wants to be ranged.)

What else can the boards suggest?

[Dagroth]

Bag of Marbles.

Grease Spell.

The Shadow template (Lords of Madness... essentially Total Concealment whenever you want it except in Daylight).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Snipe, just get Hide.

[Aotrs Commander]

Bag of Marbles.

Grease Spell.

I was going to ask how they would help, but then I googled it up. Huh. You learn summat new every day...

That said, you have to catch the creature making a balance check with an attack of opportunity (well, acrobatics in our case, since we folded some of the skills in like PF) and Grease is small enough an area that creature will tend to be either stood still, on their arses or move out of the area easily. But it's worth knowing.


The Shadow template (Lords of Madness... essentially Total Concealment whenever you want it except in Daylight).

Interesting, but impractical, since it's a template.


Snipe, just get Hide.

The major problem with that is, you have to have cover to hide (not often so readily available in a dungeon) and the sort of enemies that can negate the invisibilty are likely to have good spot/perception skills. The ninja iself also doesn't get any special ability to hide in plain sight or anything, so while it's certainly feasible for the occasional ambush, it's probably not hugely repeatable.

(The character should have Stealth anyway, since hide/move silent were among the ones we folded in and you'd need the latter to be able to make any pretense of sneaking regardless.)

[Deox]

Improved Feint could also help, assuming he doesn't dump charisma and invests into the bluff skill.

[ShurikVch]

How about the Stunning Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist)?
Stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned) creature loses his Dexterity bonus to AC

[Starbuck_II]

3.5:
Grease denies dex without 5 ranks balance.
Blink (denies dex) due to semi-not there.
Blindness (glitterdust, Blindness/deafness spell, etc)
Certain feats
Stunned

PF:
Grease denies dex on enemies turn only
Stunned
Blindness (glitterdust, Blindness/deafness spell, etc)
Certain feats

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-shadowform
Being incorporeal would work as despite Trueseeing, they can see you but doesn't stop concealment. Remember being incorporeal lets you attack inside a object gaining 50% concealment (denying dex)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#TOC-Incorporeal-Ex-

[Psyren]

The standard way I use is fog/smoke (e.g. Smokestick) + Fogcutting Lenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-fogcutting/) or Goz Mask. (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) This also has the benefit of defeating creatures that can see invisible - most fogs even block True Seeing.

There are ways to do this without items as well, e.g. the Ifrit's Firesight (Ifrit make decent Ninjas in general.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fog Cloud/Obscuring Mist and Fogcutting Lenses work on everything that doesn't have blindsight (unless he has Darkstalker/Lurker in Darkness).
Snowsight + Obscuring Snow also works, but you pretty much have to have a druid in the party for that one.

[Doctor Awkward]

Iaijutsu Focus Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0)

Relevant reading.
Iaijutus focus requires your foe to be flat-footed in order to work. Being flat-footed also denies one their Dex bonus (unless Uncanny Dodge is at work).

[Sayt]

Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth/) lets you use stealth in broad daylight. If you're running 3.5 I guess change the reqs to 10 ranks and SF. Combine this with a Ring of the Darkhidden(MIC) and Nightstalker(Lords of madness) and you need very abstruse senses (Such as mindsight) to not need to contest their hide/stealth.

I also would let your player use the Ninja from Pathfinder's Uimate Combat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/ninja.html), just as a quality of life improvement over the 3.5 ninja chassis (better HD, more and varied and interesting options from ninja tricks, sneak attack instead of invisible strike). If you do, you can point them to the dampen presence rogue talent from Magic Tactics Toolbox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/dampen-presence/). This actually lets you skip the skill focus, and lessens the need for Nightstalker (Though Nightstalker does have better coverage/protection)

PF Ninja's Vanishing Trick/Invisible blade with an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location should also get you past see invisibility etc, though the DC may be too low at high levels, but by that point the charscter should be able to crank stealth enough to make use of hellcat stealth.

[Florian]

You might want to base your ninja on the Unchained Monk (4 or 6) (Monk of the Mantis archetype) and Ultimate Combat Ninja (1+). Use the Mantis Style feat chain in combination with the Monastic Legacy feat to ramp up the number of stunning fist attempts and DC, use ninja tricks to get weapon focus and the mantis style feat, go for dazzling display and shatter defenses.

Edit: You can combine ki pools from monk and ninja, using the most favorable stat, so WIS. Flurry and ki extra attacks is superior to using the TWF feat chain, as that has a higher to-hit ratio (and you need only one weapon, so it´s cheaper)
As for items, a Shozoku of the Night Wind is essential (adding to AC, stealth, free Vanishing Trick uses), as are a Ring of Ki Mastery, Headband of Ninjutsu and a Necklace of Ki Serenity. For the later, check with your gm if it counts on both classes, that´s a bit ambiguous.

[Aotrs Commander]

The standard way I use is fog/smoke (e.g. Smokestick) + Fogcutting Lenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-fogcutting/) or Goz Mask. (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/magic-items/wondrous-items/goz-mask) This also has the benefit of defeating creatures that can see invisible - most fogs even block True Seeing.

There are ways to do this without items as well, e.g. the Ifrit's Firesight (Ifrit make decent Ninjas in general.)

Certainly one option, ta; though it would depend on how willing the rest of the party were to be equppied with that, else the ninja works but the marksman (UT) and rogue in particular would be impaired..!


I also would let your player use the Ninja from Pathfinder's Uimate Combat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/ninja.html), just as a quality of life improvement over the 3.5 ninja chassis (better HD, more and varied and interesting options from ninja tricks, sneak attack instead of invisible strike). If you do, you can point them to the dampen presence rogue talent from Magic Tactics Toolbox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo-rogue-talents/dampen-presence/). This actually lets you skip the skill focus, and lessens the need for Nightstalker (Though Nightstalker does have better coverage/protection)

Interesting, though the one thing we have maintained principally is 3.5 classes - largely because, when it came to PF at release, I didn't their fixes were better than my fixes. (My fighter fix was as simply as giving them a feat every level, and making the odd-level feats not have to be fighter feats, plus a few extra bonuses on some feats you have to specifically have to have fighter levels for (no, warblade, you don't get those.) For our paradigm, they are quite capable, even at the maximum we've played at of low epic.)

So I would have to adapt that a fair bit. (Which I will have a proper look at later.) I wouldn't give it sneak attack (since then it's unilaterially better the rogue, and I don't feel like I want to revise rogue again, as they're fine (core plus a few tweaks)), so I'd have to tweak a bit to maintain Ghost Step, since Vanishing Trick is inferior1. I also wouldn't change the HD. But that said, to say "hit dice" would presume that we actually roll dice for hit points, but I stopped doing that a while ago and everyone (including 80% of the monsters) gets maximum hit points anyway; so PF's increased HD is largely subsumed.

(For the same reason, I haven't modified to give the extra +2 racial PF gives over 3.5. My players are now on a 36-point, base 8, point-for-point point buy, (and monster on whatever-the-heck-it-happens-to-be) which gives them overall much higher stats that PF (the equivilent of - with a quick check oon a googled calculator - roughly 38 PF points), and thus are more likely to have higher Con as well. So it's not like they're losing out, because they couldn't get two twenties under PF's base engine anyway!)


Iaijutsu Focus Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8741.0)




1Might also crib some of those ideas and paste onto my Sekkou (psionic/martial adept influence by Naruto) base class, come to that.

Relevant reading.
Iaijutus focus requires your foe to be flat-footed in order to work. Being flat-footed also denies one their Dex bonus (unless Uncanny Dodge is at work).

Useful, thanks. Though it appears that without spellcaster support, the most viable options of rendering a foe flat-footed are melee-only, which is useful to pass on. Skill tricks are probably the easist to pick up, especially as this is principally for back-up.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

.



The major problem with that is, you have to have cover to hide (not often so readily available in a dungeon) and the sort of enemies that can negate the invisibilty are likely to have good spot/perception skills. The ninja iself also doesn't get any special ability to hide in plain sight or anything, so while it's certainly feasible for the occasional ambush, it's probably not hugely repeatable.

(The character should have Stealth anyway, since hide/move silent were among the ones we folded in and you'd need the latter to be able to make any pretense of sneaking regardless.)
You can use concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) to hide.

A smoke stick can help you hide.

there is a feat name darkstalker, you will need it.

You can always use a master trower throwing skill trick.

[Crake]

You can use concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) to hide.

A smoke stick can help you hide.

there is a feat name darkstalker, you will need it.

You can always use a master trower throwing skill trick.

Keep in mind that you cannot hide while being observed unless you have hide in plain sight (and if you have a good version of hide in plain sight you don't need concealment at all), so just popping a random smokestick mid combat isn't really gonna do much for you if you want to hide unless you combine it with a bluff check to distract your foe.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind that you cannot hide while being observed unless you have hide in plain sight (and if you have a good version of hide in plain sight you don't need concealment at all), so just popping a random smokestick mid combat isn't really gonna do much for you if you want to hide unless you combine it with a bluff check to distract your foe.

You can't be observed if you break line of sight - that's what the smoke is for.

[ATHATH]

Is he dead-set on playing a Ninja and not, say, a Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, or Swordsage?

[Aotrs Commander]

So I would have to adapt that a fair bit. (Which I will have a proper look at later.) I wouldn't give it sneak attack (since then it's unilaterially better the rogue, and I don't feel like I want to revise rogue again, as they're fine (core plus a few tweaks)), so I'd have to tweak a bit to maintain Ghost Step, since Vanishing Trick is inferior1.

So... Because of course once an idea gets in my head... Yeah, I've ended up doing that for a lot of the base classes (the ones I had not given much of a look at) working up towards revised ninja. At the moment, I've thrown to the players that either the ninja should:

A) get Sudden Strike (and thus don’t get the damage when flanking) but invisibility is not dispelled when they attack (i.e. 3.5 ghost step)
B) get Sneak Attack (and thus get the damage when flanking), but invisibility is dispelled on the first attack (until later levels) (i.e. PF vanishing trick/invisible blade)

(I've nominally slapped No Trace and Lightstep in as ninja talents, since I'm planning on keeping the majority of the 3.5 framework, but i'm not going to do much hard and faster fiddling until the players get back to me.)

Having now nominally implemented rogue talents, option B is now not going to obviate the rogue.


Is he dead-set on playing a Ninja and not, say, a Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, or Swordsage?

He had the option. The player (who is new to our group) likes playing light support characters, and also didn't want to start out with learning new subsystems (e.g. psionics, adepts and to a lesser degree, spellcasting).

I detect a very strong bend to ranged. He's been using the rogue (a character of one of our players who hasn't been showing up nuch because o work) at range, rather than getting in with her TWF). He was going to play a ranger, but when we go back to do the second part of our Rise of the Runelords, he's elected to take over the Ranger/Figher NPC Shalelu. But he still want his character to be of the same paradigm. (I was trying to point him away from doing archer both times - because approx 20 levels across two campaigns of the same thing is likely to get boring, but...) On Monday, he was leaning towards Warlock, but then sent me an email saying he wanted to do ninja. I suspect he wants to do this as a ranged character still (bit suboptimal, since he's stuck with short bow unless he dips or something, but he's the 8th character in the party so that's hardly a problem.

(Which reminds me, now I have to go start another thread about potential warlock upgrades, because I may as well make a full pass. (Because when I finished the month-long overhaul/indexing of monsters, spells/powers/invocations and feats, I just did not think about going over the characters as well...)