Volo's guide - error in saving throws?

[Waazraath]

I noticed in the monster section that there are quite a lot of monsters without any save bonus, and I"m suspecting some errors there. Of course, monsters can have no good saving throw.... but in general, the higher the CR, the less likely they don't have any. And in Volo's, there are quite some CR5 and higher that don't have any.

Especially I'm suspicous looking at the Yuan Ti. All Yuan Ti have saving throw modifiers, including the lowly Broodguard. But the bloody CR 12 uberboss Anathema doesn't have any? That can't be right, can it?

[hymer]

I noticed in the monster section that there are quite a lot of monsters without any save bonus, and I"m suspecting some errors there. Of course, monsters can have no good saving throw.... but in general, the higher the CR, the less likely they don't have any. And in Volo's, there are quite some CR5 and higher that don't have any.

Especially I'm suspicous looking at the Yuan Ti. All Yuan Ti have saving throw modifiers, including the lowly Broodguard. But the bloody CR 12 uberboss Anathema doesn't have any? That can't be right, can it?

I see what you mean with the Anathema. But then again...
Its base stats are pretty good. It has save numbers comparable to or better than the other yuan-ti on a quick look. Its lesser saving throw is dexterity (+1), but it gets resistance to the usual three damage types that target that save. And it gets a handful of advantage saves from having multiple heads.
I haven't run one (yet...), but it seems to me it'll probably be allright. It hasn't lost the magic resistance of most yuan-ti. Maybe adding some save profs on top of that makes it too hard to target?

[DanyBallon]

Could it be that saving throw are written down as a specific entry only if they should have a better bonus than the base ability modifier? I haven't seen the creature you are taking as example as I don't have Volo's guide, but maybe it's base stats are high enough so that they don't need a bonus on top for their saving throws?

[Waazraath]

Well... true that the Anathema's stats are good, and they have magic resistance, so maybe it doesn't need them. But several things don't feel right to me.

1) all the lesser yuan ti have saving throws, but the big boss doesn't?
2) magic resistance is strong, but giving it to a createre and than nerfing its saving throws (if the devs did this intentionally) feels wrong. Than why give magic resistance in the first place?
3) in general, as far as I've seen, the higher the CR the creature, the bigger the chance it has saving throw bonusses, and more of them as well.

Regarding that last point, that's why I think they simply forgotten it in Volo's guide in some instances. Look at the Devourer, to give another example. CR 13, no saves, wis +0, ref +1, int +1... that's just weird. And plenty of CR5, 6 critters in the book without saves.

[Millstone85]

all the lesser yuan ti have saving throws, but the big boss doesn't?Just to be sure, when you say the big boss "doesn't have saving throws", you only mean it doesn't have proficiency in them, right?

For example, let's compare the anathema to the nightmare speaker.

Anathema
Str 23 (+6) Dex 13 (+1) Con 19 (+4) Int 19 (+4) Wis 17 (+3) Cha 20 (+5)

Nightmare Speaker
Str 16 (+3) Dex 14 (+2) Con 13 (+1) Int 14 (+2) Wis 12 (+1) Cha 16 (+3)
Saving Throws Wis +3 Cha +5

To make a charisma saving throw, the anathema would roll a d20 and add 5, because its charisma modifier is +5.

To make a charisma saving throw, the nightmare speaker would also roll a d20 and add 5, because its charisma modifier is +3 and its proficiency bonus as a CR 4 creature is +2, total +5 as noted in the stat block.

The nightmare speaker would only have better saves with dexterity, which might be a question of size.

[DanyBallon]

One thing to remember is that Monsters do not follow the same rules as PCs, they have specific abilities written down only if it would be different than their ability modifier. If the designer feeled that the Anathema don't need a higher bonus to their CHA saving throw because they already have +5 CHA mod, then it explain why they don't have a ST entry in their stat blocks.

[DireSickFish]

One thing to remember is that Monsters do not follow the same rules as PCs, they have specific abilities written down only if it would be different than their ability modifier. If the designer feeled that the Anathema don't need a higher bonus to their CHA saving throw because they already have +5 CHA mod, then it explain why they don't have a ST entry in their stat blocks.

It is odd that none of the monsters in Volo's would have saving throws though. The monster they pointed out is just an example. I'm away from book or I'd check to see if any have saving throws. You'd think something would warrant proficiency in a saving throw. Even just the NPC section in the back.

[Waazraath]

Just to be sure, when you say the big boss "doesn't have saving throws", you only mean it doesn't have proficiency in them, right?



Correct.

And indeed, in absolute numbers the Anathema comes out on top. And I just checked the MM, and the abomination (cr7) neither adds its proficiency bonus to saves. So I probably am mistaken. DanyBallon is right as well of course, that monsters don't follow the same rules as PC's.

Still: the devourer example: a level 9 party needs only cast a hold monster to trivalise a cr13 (DC 17 vs a +0 will save). That feels really weird. Oh well.

[Waazraath]

It is odd that none of the monsters in Volo's would have saving throws though. The monster they pointed out is just an example. I'm away from book or I'd check to see if any have saving throws. You'd think something would warrant proficiency in a saving throw. Even just the NPC section in the back.

Some of them have; the yuan ti broodguard for example has, it is also from Volo's. Plenty of 'em have. But some from which I really would expect it don't, that's all.