warlock needs help (i broke something i think)

[death390]

Ok looking through warlock and its prestige classes i was attempting early entry tricks to try and get into eldritch theurge and found a feat combination that leaves me stumped.

Magical Training regional feat gives you wiz/soc spellcasting (your choice) for a few 0-level spells, this combined with precocious apprentice gives a second level spell slot. which means that i cast as a wizard/sorc and i will have the required second level arcane casting to get into eldritch theurge, 3D6 eldritch blast [need 2D6], and the 8 skill ranks in Knowledge: arcane and planes by level 5. HOWEVER what happens when at level 6 i enter Eldritch theurge?


Warlocks benefi t in a specifi c way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1
level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefi t. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class

as the above spoiler says the +1 existing arcane spellcasting class would increase invocations and eldritch blast if applied to warlock, AND +1 existing invocation class would also increase invocations and eldritch blast.

Note: techincaly you could do this using a dip and versatile spellcaster/ heighten +earthspell/ heighten + easy metamagic highten/ precoucious aprentice/ ect ect ect. and still target warlock due to there not being a ruling that you cant target the same class with a dual progression class.

does this mean that for EACH level of eldritch theurge i would improve invocations and eldritch blast by 2 levels? as i read it it would do that.meaning by level 15 i would be a level 25 warlock for EB and invocations.

of course on the flip side i could improve my wizard/sorc spellcasting with teh + i arcane spell casting from magical training (its basicaly level .5 cl 1)

[MintyThe1st]

while it may not be written, it is generally assumed with the theurge classes that the increased spell abilities dont apply to the same class twice. Warlock gets more invoking, because you don't have an arcane class, the arcane portion gets you nothing.

[Troacctid]

Precocious Apprentice cannot meet the prerequisite; if it counted as being able to cast 2nd level spells, then it would immediately stop working and replace the benefit with an extra 2nd level spell slot (which you could only fill with cantrips).

Even if you found a working entry, choosing the same class twice for Eldritch Theurge is redundant, since it only advances you one level.

[death390]

precocious apprentice DOES meet the requirements due to giving a second level slot as wizard, IE allows bonus spell slots AND precocious apprentice does give a 2nd level spell in addition to the slot. thus it does meet requirements (and worst case i have other early entry tricks, and even using a single level dip and versatile spellcaster would work it doesn't say that you HAVE to put it in the arcane spellcasting class just that you PICK one if you have more than one arcane spellcasting class.

hell this trick could work with ultimate magus if you have spontaneous casting wizard (like the conjuration variant).

and it isnt redundant due to the fact that each part is individual increase.

[Troacctid]

AND precocious apprentice does give a 2nd level spell in addition to the slot.
In fact if you read it closely you will find it does not. You do not gain the chosen spell as one of your spells known; you are expected to take it as one of the ones you get for leveling up.

[death390]

Emphasis MINE


Precocious Apprentice
( Complete Arcane, p. 181)

[General]

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.


as you can see the bold you literally get a 2nd level spell that you cast from said sot but have to succeed a check to cast it because its higher than normaly get to cast. it does say you lose this extra spell when you normaly get 2nd level spells, but UNTIL THEN you have access to that 2nd level spell.

[Beheld]

Instead of rehashing the same precocious apprentice argument that has been had a billion times and no one cares about the answer to, can we just have a raw argument about double warlock progression with Eldritch Theurge?

[Inevitability]

Let's take a good look at the Eldritch Theurge prerequisites, shall we?


Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

Note the plural used. Precocious Apprentice gives you only a single level 2 spell to cast: you're still failing to meet the prerequisite.

[Beheld]

Let's take a good look at the Eldritch Theurge prerequisites, shall we?



Note the plural used. Precocious Apprentice gives you only a single level 2 spell to cast: you're still failing to meet the prerequisite.

So I'll take that as a no then...

Fine, it's a Human Warlock with two flaws that takes Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell.

Now it can cast 2nd level spells with only Warlock levels. Can we please please please talk about the Warlock advancement?

[Dagroth]

This doesn't work any more than WarMage-6/Rainbow Servant-10/Mystic Theurge-4 with Mystic Theurge advancing your WarMage (arcane spellcasting class) and your Warmage (divine spellcasting class thanks to Rainbow Servant).

[Beheld]

This doesn't work any more than WarMage-6/Rainbow Servant-10/Mystic Theurge-4 with Mystic Theurge advancing your WarMage (arcane spellcasting class) and your Warmage (divine spellcasting class thanks to Rainbow Servant).

That isn't even an argument from analogy... It's just an assertion.

[Ruethgar]

As stated before it doesn't work because a class only gets advanced once. So even if you pick Warlock for both sides, you have already fulfilled the advance once clause and don't gain a second advancement.

If you want op early entry, Awakened Cat/Toad/Rat/Lizard/Monkey taking all the Bloodlines at lvl 1(since they don't actually cost XP and don't increase ECL by RAW you can get a book thrown at you for mentioning that you instantly level again upon taking one), Laborious Training for more skill cap increase on Knowledge(Planes), and Sculpt Self for a 1/day SLA of Brimstone Blast for a pittance of exp. ECL 2 you are going into Hellfire Warlock and about to face a TPK from an agitated GM.

[Darrin]

Note the plural used. Precocious Apprentice gives you only a single level 2 spell to cast: you're still failing to meet the prerequisite.

The "plural" argument is not a strong argument against early-entry because it does not give a time-frame. If I cast one second level spell on Monday, and I cast it again on Tuesday, I have cast *multiple* 2nd level spells.

There is no definitive RAW that conclusively allows early-entry tricks to happen. They either happen or don't happen based on what your local group has agreed on that works best for that group.

[Inevitability]

The "plural" argument is not a strong argument against early-entry because it does not give a time-frame. If I cast one second level spell on Monday, and I cast it again on Tuesday, I have cast *multiple* 2nd level spells.

I was reading it as referring to multiple kinds of spells. If you cast Acid Arrow on Monday, then cast it again on Tuesday, you're not casting second-level spells, you're casting a single second-level spell (Acid Arrow) with some time between the castings.

I guess your reading is valid as well, though.

[Beheld]

I was reading it as referring to multiple kinds of spells. If you cast Acid Arrow on Monday, then cast it again on Tuesday, you're not casting second-level spells, you're casting a single second-level spell (Acid Arrow) with some time between the castings.

I guess your reading is valid as well, though.

Why do you hate sorcerers so much that you want to force them to wait until level 5 before you let them in a prc that requires 2nd level spells?

[Inevitability]

Why do you hate sorcerers so much that you want to force them to wait until level 5 before you let them in a prc that requires 2nd level spells?

Because I've come to associate them with endless blathering, self-absorbedness, an inability to admit defeat, and a large number of forum rule violations.

A more serious answer: I do not hate sorcerers, and I wonder how often your very specific example will occur. Are there even any sorcerer-friendly prestige classes one would normally be capable of entering at 4th-level that specifically require '2nd-level spells'?

[Beheld]

Because I've come to associate them with endless blathering, self-absorbedness, an inability to admit defeat, and a large number of forum rule violations.

A more serious answer: I do not hate sorcerers, and I wonder how often your very specific example will occur. Are there even any sorcerer-friendly prestige classes one would normally be capable of entering at 4th-level that specifically require '2nd-level spells'?

Well literally the same argument holds of all sorcerer PrCs that say "3rd level spells" until level 7. But in this specific case, you are saying that a Wizard 3/Warlock 3 can enter, but a Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4 can't enter because he needs to take another level of Sorcerer.

[Jeriah]

while it may not be written, it is generally assumed with the theurge classes that the increased spell abilities dont apply to the same class twice. Warlock gets more invoking, because you don't have an arcane class, the arcane portion gets you nothing.This is your answer.

You can get a similar situation with Ultimate Magus using the spontaneous divination wizard ACF or a sorcerer with the Arcane Preparation feat. You can only advance a class's features once per level, even if you can find a way like these that appears to give it double advancement. I know there was something official about it somewhere, but it may have been CustServ, which I tend to ignore. As a potential homebrew alternative, you could ask your DM to allow it to double progress up to a max of your HD if you've multiclassed and lost casting levels. I'd be inclined to allow it in a high power game.

Ignore the Precocious Apprentice nonsense. Either your DM will allow it or will not, and the forum will never reach a consensus on the topic. I say it works.

[Troacctid]

as you can see the bold you literally get a 2nd level spell that you cast from said sot but have to succeed a check to cast it because its higher than normaly get to cast. it does say you lose this extra spell when you normaly get 2nd level spells, but UNTIL THEN you have access to that 2nd level spell.
You need to be able to cast 2nd level spells in order to enter Eldritch Theurge. If you don't think Precocious Apprentice's first ability counts as the ability to cast 2nd level spells, then how are you using it for the prerequisite?

A reminder of the wording:

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.

You can't have it both ways—are you or are you not able to cast 2nd level spells? If you are, then you immediately lose that ability and replace it with an extra 2nd level spell slot, as per the text of the feat. If you are not, then you don't qualify for Eldritch Theurge. Pick one.

[Dagroth]

Actually, I don't see how my example isn't essentially the exact same thing as your idea(s).

Rainbow Servant 10 allows the caster to cast Divine Spells from the Cleric List. These spells remain Divine Spells, even when cast using Arcane Spell slots.

To become a Mystic Theurge, you have to be able to cast 2nd level Arcane & 2nd level Divine Spells (and 5 ranks in some skills... if you can't get that by 16th level, you're doing it wrong).

Upon taking the first level of Mystic Theurge, you advance your spellcasting in your Arcane Spellcasting class... which is WarMage in this example. Then you advance your spellcasting in your Divine Spellcasting class. Since the class you cast divine spells with is WarMage... that's what you advance, right?

[Twurps]

All arguments on precotious apprentice asside, and even putting all arguments on stacking asside, This will never give you +2 per Eldritch Theurge level, simply because of the wording of ET itself.

It never says 'you gain a level'. It says on the casting side:
'At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class'

and on the invocations side:
'at each level, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.'

So there's no problem at all applying both to Warlock. Doing so would just mean you advance spellcasting (from warlock) 1 level, and you advance invocations (from warlock) 1 level. It's basically the exact same thing you would get if you had used wizard to enter.

[Beheld]

All arguments on precotious apprentice asside, and even putting all arguments on stacking asside, This will never give you +2 per Eldritch Theurge level, simply because of the wording of ET itself.

It never says 'you gain a level'. It says on the casting side:
'At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class'

and on the invocations side:
'at each level, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.'

So there's no problem at all applying both to Warlock. Doing so would just mean you advance spellcasting (from warlock) 1 level, and you advance invocations (from warlock) 1 level. It's basically the exact same thing you would get if you had used wizard to enter.

Wholly Crap! Did someone just make an argument based on the actual rules text! You clearly don't belong in this thread.


Actually, I don't see how my example isn't essentially the exact same thing as your idea(s).

Rainbow Servant 10 allows the caster to cast Divine Spells from the Cleric List. These spells remain Divine Spells, even when cast using Arcane Spell slots.

To become a Mystic Theurge, you have to be able to cast 2nd level Arcane & 2nd level Divine Spells (and 5 ranks in some skills... if you can't get that by 16th level, you're doing it wrong).

Upon taking the first level of Mystic Theurge, you advance your spellcasting in your Arcane Spellcasting class... which is WarMage in this example. Then you advance your spellcasting in your Divine Spellcasting class. Since the class you cast divine spells with is WarMage... that's what you advance, right?

1) It's not my idea. It's just something that I have never considered, and that would be an actually worthwhile thing to look at the rules of, unlike Precocious Apprentice (again).

2) Regardless of whether you think your example is the same, just stating it, without even making a comparison, much less looking at the rules, still wasn't an argument.

3) I don't know, does Mystic Theurge have language Eldritch Theurge doesn't? Is there some language they both have that prevents it? Why don't you tell me, since you seem to have a strong opinion.

[Roderick_BR]

If this bit is correct (I found the text in some forum)

Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class)"
So no, you can't apply that "+1 arcane caster level" to your warlock class

[Dagroth]

Actually, I'm arguing from a "Devil's Advocate" style position.

Personally, I'm in favor of such things as long as they don't increase casting ability beyond character level.

So, using my example, a WarMage 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Mystic Theurge 4 would end up casting as a Warmage 12 at level 16. Then every level of Mystic Theurge would boost that by 2; until they were casting as a Warmage 20 at level 20.

Your example would have a Warlock 5 (casting as a Warlock 5), then going to Warlock 5/ET 1 and casting as a Warlock 7... which is beyond his character level, which I do not think should be allowed.

I base this partially on the wording of the "Practiced Spellcaster" Feat, which clearly states that it doesn't raise your Effective Caster Level above your Character Level.

[Twurps]

If this bit is correct (I found the text in some forum)

So no, you can't apply that "+1 arcane caster level" to your warlock class
Very true, and might well have been put in there to avoid this exact argument.

I doubt the designers saw had this early entry trick in mind, but what the op was trying to pull would just as easily (NOT) work with a regular wizard entry.


Wholly Crap! Did someone just make an argument based on the actual rules text! You clearly don't belong in this thread.

As per your request, YVW. Also: LOL, mind if I sig it?

[Beheld]

As per your request, YVW. Also: LOL, mind if I sig it?

Sig away.


Your example would have a Warlock 5 (casting as a Warlock 5), then going to Warlock 5/ET 1 and casting as a Warlock 7... which is beyond his character level, which I do not think should be allowed.

I base this partially on the wording of the "Practiced Spellcaster" Feat, which clearly states that it doesn't raise your Effective Caster Level above your Character Level.

a) not my example.

b) why would you base something completely unrelated to practiced spellcaster on practiced spellcaster?

[Dagroth]

a) not my example.

b) why would you base something completely unrelated to practiced spellcaster on practiced spellcaster?

Sorry, meant the OPs example.

I don't consider it entirely unrelated. Practiced Spellcaster sets a hard cap on the effectiveness of raising Caster Level without using very specific spells or abilities. Thus, it seems like a good measuring stick to compare if a feature that raises actual casting ability is balanced or not.

A PRC that only required "Able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" and gave "+3 level of existing spellcasting class" at every level would be stupid-broken, for example.

[Beheld]

Sorry, meant the OPs example.

I don't consider it entirely unrelated. Practiced Spellcaster sets a hard cap on the effectiveness of raising Caster Level without using very specific spells or abilities. Thus, it seems like a good measuring stick to compare if a feature that raises actual casting ability is balanced or not.

A PRC that only required "Able to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells" and gave "+3 level of existing spellcasting class" at every level would be stupid-broken, for example.

.....

1) There are like, 500 ways to increase Caster level. Practiced spellcaster is literally the only one that is capped. It makes as much sense to pick Deathknell or Create Magic Tattoo, or Consumptive Field or Arcane Thesis as your balance point.

2) By that logic, Prestige classes should never give extra spells per day or higher level spells, because Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do that. If Practiced Spellcaster is your one true balance point, then PrCs can only increase Caster level, and never give extra spells ever.

[Dagroth]

.....

1) There are like, 500 ways to increase Caster level. Practiced spellcaster is literally the only one that is capped. It makes as much sense to pick Deathknell or Create Magic Tattoo, or Consumptive Field or Arcane Thesis as your balance point.

2) By that logic, Prestige classes should never give extra spells per day or higher level spells, because Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do that. If Practiced Spellcaster is your one true balance point, then PrCs can only increase Caster level, and never give extra spells ever.

You're taking my example to an extreme level.

Do you believe that a PrC should raise the casting of a class higher than the level of the character?

Do you believe that a 7th level character should have full access to and be regularly casting 7th level spells?

Yes, there are a couple of PrCs with accelerated spellcasting... and I find that those classes are either very limited (Divine Crusader) or a bit unbalanced (Ur-Priest). But even so, a Divine Crusader isn't even starting the class until character level 8 and casting level 9 spells at level 17... so that's no big deal. An Ur-Priest can't start until character level 6 and gets level 9 spells at level 15... so that's a little early IMHO.

[Beheld]

You're taking my example to an extreme level.

Do you believe that a PrC should raise the casting of a class higher than the level of the character?

Do you believe that a 7th level character should have full access to and be regularly casting 7th level spells?

Okay, but what does any of that have to do with Practiced Spellcaster?

Would it kill you to have a balance point based on the base classes that cast spells instead of claiming it is based on a minor feat that doesn't even effect spell level access?

I mean, just say "I balance the progression to the Wizard standard" instead of "I balance the progression of Prestige Classes to a feat that doesn't give extra spells, but then I give extra spells!"

[death390]

while the specific example of eldritch theurge having the specific clause is one i missed, there is no such clause for mystic theurge,

that means that for other classes like archivist with magical training and alternate source spell could pull the same trick i proposed. and i bet that arcane heirophant doesn't have the sprecific clause (druid entry). the other dual progression classes have ways of seting up to get the doubling benifit.

while looking at this it is absolutly nothing more than cheese (and should only be attempted in specific curcumstances) but the RAW of it does look like without a specific clause like in eldritch theurge it would be possible to double spellcasting progression.

although that now means my dragonfire adept/warlock eldritch thurge combo wont work now.

in addition the specific text in eldrith theurge means that it would be possible for the other classes due to the lack of specific on other dual casting progression classes. (hmm, magical training fighter/druid 1/ urpriest with alternate source spell versatile spellcaster and mystic theurge double progression on ur-priest anyone)

[death390]

Trying to make my last thought easier to understand.

The fact that eldritch theurge required the writers to add that specific clause means that if not for it it would be possible due to the fact that Dnd generally is a game of exceptions.

Now there is no way this is RAI in any way shape or form but raw looks to be perfectly acceptable to double up on progression for dual casting classes if the target is capable of the act such as a divine or arcane spell casting class with alternate source spell.

Hell by that logic since YOU pick what progression is advanced even normal entry methods could target the same casting progression even if you have the other progression available to advance as long as you satisfy the conditions.

And this is still ignoring the can of worms that magical training is due to the wording saying you cast the level 0 spells as a wizard or sorcerer basically giving you spellcasting as said class.

[Inevitability]

Well literally the same argument holds of all sorcerer PrCs that say "3rd level spells" until level 7. But in this specific case, you are saying that a Wizard 3/Warlock 3 can enter, but a Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4 can't enter because he needs to take another level of Sorcerer.

True, and I suppose in such a case I'd houserule it. But going by strict RAW, I don't believe precocious apprentice grants 'spells'.

[death390]

What about a wizards spell book, you can scribe spells into it even if you can't cast them. Also the precocious apprentice feat explicitly gives you 1 temporary spell (until standard progression would give you second level spells) and one permanent spell slot the only thing I have read about bonus spell slots is that you don't get them until you either have at least a 0 slot of that level. But that means that since you have a single lvl 2 slot you would get bonus spells for that slot at 14 or higher int score. And precocious apprentice feat says that the original 2nd lvl slot must be used for the temporary spell but has no restrictions on the bonus slot. Prep any 2nd lvl spell known in that slot and walah 2 different 2nd level spells able to cast.

Hell precocious apprentice on a known spell list like beguiler and cast any known spell in the bonus spell slot

[Twurps]

Trying to make my last thought easier to understand.

The fact that eldritch theurge required the writers to add that specific clause means that if not for it it would be possible due to the fact that Dnd generally is a game of exceptions.

Now there is no way this is RAI in any way shape or form but raw looks to be perfectly acceptable to double up on progression for dual casting classes if the target is capable of the act such as a divine or arcane spell casting class with alternate source spell.

Hell by that logic since YOU pick what progression is advanced even normal entry methods could target the same casting progression even if you have the other progression available to advance as long as you satisfy the conditions.

And this is still ignoring the can of worms that magical training is due to the wording saying you cast the level 0 spells as a wizard or sorcerer basically giving you spellcasting as said class.

Mystic theurge indead doesn't have the specific clause, because it doesn't need the specific clause. The clause was written specifically tailored to the special treatment a Warlock gets from PrC's that advance casting. Both arcane and divine spellcasting classes don't get that special treatment, and thus don't need the clause.

The relevant wording from mystic theurge is: "When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class..." Archivist isn't an arcane spellcasting class. Having Alternative source spell doesn't change that. Yes it lets you cast a spell as an arcane one, but you're still a divine caster (As proven by the very fact that you need alternative spell to cast the arcane spell in the first place)

[death390]

OK, first the terms spellcasting class, arcane spellcasting class, divine spellcasting class, sponteneous spellcasting class, and prepared spellcasting class were never defined. (i have however found wording in thaumaturge (DMG!), SIX compete divine prestige classes, unearthed arcana tainted sorcerer, and a forgotten realms prestige class that imply at the VERY LEAST the specific prestige classes are spellcasting classes even though they progress spellcasting and dont have inherent spellcasting but that is going in another thread to not derail this one.)

back to what i was saying those 5 terms were NEVER EXPLICITLY DEFINED in a FIRST PARTY PRINTED material, all i have found is cust. serv. and they seem to be wrong and contradict themselves all the time so not taking thier word for it.

there are however 2 paths of thought people are arguing it seems. Inherent spellcasting versus augmented. In inherent spellcasting which you seem to be a proponent of only the class based spellcasting would be allowed to count to what type of casting it is this means that feats would not count twoards it. that to me seems a little off since you are able to use feats to augment your spellcasting. even then there is at least one class that could pull of the trick proposed.

Spontaneous summoning Conjuror (wizard). it uses the alternate class feature from unearthed arcana but it AS a CLASS has prepared and spontaneous spellcasting which means it can enter Ultimate Magus at level 5 (earlier with skill entry tricks, and one of the cast spells higher level ones) and since it is AS a CLASS a prepared spontaneous arcane spellcasting class would be able to progress the spellcasting every single level, which means by level 10 of ultimate magus it would be 7 levels above standard wizard progression. so at the very least there is a RAW way that this could work.

now on to the second point, logically since there are feats that AUGMENT spellcasting these feats should apply to the type of spellcaster you are. for example a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class such as sorcerer, beguiler, duskblade ext. with the feat arcane preparation these classes are able to both prepare and spontaneously cast spells thus they are now prepared spontaneous arcane spellcasters.

the feat spontaneous spellcasting for the cost of 2 action points prepared spellcasters are able to spontaneous cast, signature spell chose a spell that you are now able to spontaneously cast. spontaneous healer, with a wizard who has scribed cure light wounds in his spellbook because THAT SPELL is BOTH arcane and divine (bard spell list). so any prepared arcane spellcaster can now spontaneously cast as long as they have those feats.

for the arcane divine dual casting classes there are the feats arcane domain, magical training, alternate source spell. the number of ways to augment spellcasting are enormous!

[Troacctid]

OK, first the terms spellcasting class, arcane spellcasting class, divine spellcasting class, sponteneous spellcasting class, and prepared spellcasting class were never defined.
That's not entirely true.

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

[death390]

i just found that spontaneous caster thing myself looking up something else. however emphasis mine.

PHB 178.
Spell Slots: The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. For example, a 7th-level wizard has at least one 4th-level spell slot and two 3rd-level spell slots (see Table 3–18: The Wizard, page 55).

meaning that ALL spellcasting is done out of spell slots. additionaly...


rules compendium page 139. under spontaneous casting

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

and on the same page.

OTHER SPONTANEOUS CASTING
Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell.

these 2 exerpts from the rules compendium say that spontaneous spellcasters do not NEED spell books, AND prepared casters Can spontaneously cast spells. this logicaly means that the ABILITY to cast spells spontaneously IS what defines a spontaneous caster.

meaning that if in anyway you can spontaneously cast spells out of spell slots (which all spells are cast from prepared or spontaneous) you are a spontaneous caster.

[Twurps]

Warning: Rules lawyering ahead, I'm not advocating this position in actual play! having said that:

Funny how I conclude the complete opposite from this quote


rules compendium page 139. under spontaneous casting

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.
emphasis mine
Using this definition, a sorcerer who somehow obtains prepared casting, might very well not be able to cast 'any spell he knows' spontaneously. (unless he only obtains prepared casting for spells he can also cast spontaneously). Therefore: gaining some form of prepared casting would mean he's no longer a spontaneous caster. No longer qualifying as a spontaneous caster means no ultimate magus goodies.

A slightly more reasonable conclusion would be in line with what I stated earlier: Spontaneous casters are those who are, by their casting chassis, spontaneous. Simple being able to cast a/some spells spontaneous, does not a spontaneous caster make.



and on the same page.

OTHER SPONTANEOUS CASTING
Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell.

these 2 exerpts from the rules compendium say that spontaneous spellcasters do not NEED spell books, AND prepared casters Can spontaneously cast spells. this logicaly means that the ABILITY to cast spells spontaneously IS what defines a spontaneous caster.

meaning that if in anyway you can spontaneously cast spells out of spell slots (which all spells are cast from prepared or spontaneous) you are a spontaneous caster.
You've lost me here. The 'other spontaneous casting' section in RC p139 seems to me only explains that some prepared casters can also cast spontaneous spells, and goes on to explain how these spontaneous spells interact with metamagic. (this seems to me the whole point of the section) At no point in this section is there any assertion made as to what constitutes a spontaneous caster. The whole section seems irrelevant to this discussion.



now on to the second point, logically since there are feats that AUGMENT spellcasting these feats should apply to the type of spellcaster you are. for example a spontaneous arcane spellcasting class such as sorcerer, beguiler, duskblade ext. with the feat arcane preparation these classes are able to both prepare and spontaneously cast spells thus they are now prepared spontaneous arcane spellcasters. ....
Just as being able to cast a spontaneous spell, doesn't make you a spontaneous caster, so does being able to cast a prepared spell not make you a prepared caster. (Unless the definition of a prepared caster is worded significantly different from the spontaneous one. I haven't found a quote on it yet). Feats can AUGMENT your casting to the point where you meet prereq 'able to cast Xlvl spontaneous spells'. It can't qualify you for 'being a spontaneous caster'.

[death390]

ok then by the strictest most literal definition spontaneous casters are only thouse who can cast any of thier spells known. thankfully most prestige classes that need spontaneous casting are written as spellcasting: spontaneous. then by that matter taking the Feat versatile spellcaster would make the caster spontaneous permanantly (unless they know spells above what they can cast). making them a viable target for +1 level of spontaneous spellcasting class.

[Twurps]

ok then by the strictest most literal definition spontaneous casters are only thouse who can cast any of thier spells known. thankfully most prestige classes that need spontaneous casting are written as spellcasting: spontaneous. then by that matter taking the spell versatile spellcaster would make the caster spontaneous permanantly (unless they know spells above what they can cast). making them a viable target for +1 level of spontaneous spellcasting class.

Like I said, I don't like the most literal definition, but yes. I'd have to agree. By that definition a wizard with the versatile spellcaster feat (which I assume you mean), becomes spontaneous. :S

Would he still qualify for 'prepared caster' though? I haven't found a definition for it.

[death390]

thanks for catching that mistype for me. but yes i have not found definitions for prepared spellcasting class (or even just spellcasting class) either.

i have however found multiple classes that contain lines similar to the following

from the DMG thaumaturge prestige class. My emphasis.

Spells per Day: When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a thaumaturgist, he must decide to which class he adds each level of thaumaturgist for the purpose of determining spells per day.

other classes with similar wording (and the sambe emphasised point) include dweomerkeeper contemplative divine oracle tainted sorcerer seeker of the misty isle sacred fist and nightcloak.

logicaly the bold text means at the very least these classes are spellcasting classes, at best that means all prestige classes that progress spellcasting are spellcasting classes. this also means they are a valid target for other prestige class spellcasting progression.

[prufock]

Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class

I'm narrowing the focus of the rules text here. Technically, it isn't the "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" that's granting you the bonus to eldritch blast and invocations (or spellcasting) - it's the prestige class level that contains that ability. Similarly, the ET text reads:

"Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an eldritch theurge, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Invocations: At each level, you gain new invocations known and an increase in caster level as if you had also gained a level in an invocation-using class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. (This includes eldritch blast.) You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one invocation-using class before becoming an eldritch theurge, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining caster level and invocations known."

Again, it's the level of the prestige class that seems to be key. Of course, this doesn't provide a clear-cut answer, but seems to speak to the intent. You could ask "can a level stack with itself?" but I don't think that a valid line of reasoning.

[death390]

you know taking a very literal definition of that, a warlock doesn't even need to apply the spellcasting increase from those levels simply having them would grant him the bonus.

[prufock]

you know taking a very literal definition of that, a warlock doesn't even need to apply the spellcasting increase from those levels simply having them would grant him the bonus.

Your comment doesn't clarify anything I said, so I can't respond unless you expand on it. The rules text says you add your prestige class levels that grant +1 spellcasting. Even if you gain both abilities at ET 1, your prc level is only 1 -- that's what you add to your effective warlock level according to they rules text. Am I missing something?

[Troacctid]

There's a known dysfunction where prestige classes still advance Warlock even if they're already advancing something else. I think it's in the Dysfunctional Rules thread already.

[death390]

sorry was making an observation not ignoring you.

Warlock doesn't work due to its specific dysfunction. (ill have to check dragonfire adept it might be able to dual stack, or i might not even be able to be progresses by "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class" who knows, but it is the only other invocation class i know of.)

Mystic theurge has that similar wording "This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has" in its spells progression feature.

Aha Ultimate magus doesn't have that issue.
"At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained."

no wording about adding level of Ultimate magus there. so technically a sorcerer (spontaneous arcane spellcaster) with the feat arcane preparation (enabling it to be prepared caster) could dual stack the gain.



i have no disagreement about the fact that you can't stack a level within a level, that would be silly. this means that if it has the wording "adds the level of "Class" to the level of whatever "spellcasting class type 1 and spellcasting class type 2 (or even other type [psionics/ invocations/ martial adept/ ect]" the character has. would not be eligible for dual stacking due to the wording "adds the level of "class"

[death390]

and dragonfire adepts have that same dysfunction. looks like they copy-pasted warlocks over.