Swallow Whole, how to escape (3.5)

[Skree]

Hello,

there is a debate beetween myself and another DM on how to interpret the escape artist/grapple check to escape being swallowed. We can't seem to come to an agreeable solution, so i thought of asking here.

To avoid creating any bias, i won't even explain how our different ideas came to be or which interpretation is mine or which is not.

Interpretation number one: when you are in the stomach of the creature, if you make a succesful grapple check you escape the grapple, are in the mouth of the creature but you re NO LONGER IN A GRAPPLE

Interpretation number two: when you are in the stomach of the creature, if you make a succesful grapple check you escale the grapple, are in the mouth of the creature, AND YOU ARE STILL GRAPPLING

I would of course appreciate if you could point out rules and manuals. Since we are both DM and we are both quite sure of our interpretation i doubt a simple "1" or "2" would sway any of us.

Thank you really for your help. And for your time.

We are using 3.5 rules.

[Rerednaw]

You are still escaping a grapple:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a

Per Wizards, the Rules of the Game, All about Grappling, Part Two:

"Escape from Grapple: You can escape from an opponent's grasp by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If you choose to make an Escape Artist check, your foe still makes a grapple check to oppose your check.

If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result (or Escape Artist check result) has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don't have to try to hold you if they don't want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent or opponents. This movement is part of the attack or standard action you used to escape the grapple. The movement provokes attacks of opportunity from foes who threaten the space you leave, but the movement doesn't count against your speed for the current turn."

BUT... Swallow Whole has its own additions:

Source: SRD

"If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again."

So you are better off escaping before being swallowed. After that it gets tougher...unless you have save Anklets of Translocation to teleport 10' as a swift. :)

[Necroticplague]

Hello,

there is a debate beetween myself and another DM on how to interpret the escape artist/grapple check to escape being swallowed. We can't seem to come to an agreeable solution, so i thought of asking here.

To avoid creating any bias, i won't even explain how our different ideas came to be or which interpretation is mine or which is not.

Interpretation number one: when you are in the stomach of the creature, if you make a succesful grapple check you escape the grapple, are in the mouth of the creature but you re NO LONGER IN A GRAPPLE

Interpretation number two: when you are in the stomach of the creature, if you make a succesful grapple check you escale the grapple, are in the mouth of the creature, AND YOU ARE STILL GRAPPLING

I would of course appreciate if you could point out rules and manuals. Since we are both DM and we are both quite sure of our interpretation i doubt a simple "1" or "2" would sway any of us.

Thank you really for your help. And for your time.

We are using 3.5 rules.

You're still in a grapple.


If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

Now, let's look to Improved Grab, as directed, for what being 'in their mouth' would mean


The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent.

So, the text for Swallow Whole at the end means it's a substitution: instead of escaping the grapple completely, you end up back in their mouth. As per Improved Grab, being in their mouth means they are conducting a grapple, albiet they might not be doing it normally. Essentially, Swallowed Whole just adds another layer of 'grappled' to you.

[Stealth Marmot]

Okay, idea...

1) Find out what they put on those Nintendo Switch Cartridges to make them taste bad,

2) Coat yourself in it.

3) ???

4) Profit (Possibly inexplicable, WHY DOES A BEHIR HAVE TREASURE??)

[Skree]

Ok, thank you for the answers.

Theese ideas were said in our discussion, but failed to convince.

It was also said that in the swallow Whole rule it is compared to a pin, and of course if you escape a pin you are still grappling.

Even that did not convince the person in question.

Do you have any idea on what to say or how to explain the rule in this case?

A respectful idea, of course, i do not wish to be a jerk with this other person.

[Mordaedil]

1) Find out what they put on those Nintendo Switch Cartridges to make them taste bad,

A man covered in medieval sweat and the armor he's wearing are guaranteed to taste worse than those cartridges. They are not even that awful.

[Thurbane]

1) Find out what they put on those Nintendo Switch Cartridges to make them taste bad

Ipecac: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 209. :smallwink:

[Dagroth]

Ok, thank you for the answers.

Theese ideas were said in our discussion, but failed to convince.

It was also said that in the swallow Whole rule it is compared to a pin, and of course if you escape a pin you are still grappling.

Even that did not convince the person in question.

Do you have any idea on what to say or how to explain the rule in this case?

A respectful idea, of course, i do not wish to be a jerk with this other person.

Show them the rules in question. Explain that these are the rules they are looking for. Waving your hand as you say it is optional.

[Necroticplague]

Ok, thank you for the answers.

Theese ideas were said in our discussion, but failed to convince.

It was also said that in the swallow Whole rule it is compared to a pin, and of course if you escape a pin you are still grappling.

Even that did not convince the person in question.

Do you have any idea on what to say or how to explain the rule in this case?

A respectful idea, of course, i do not wish to be a jerk with this other person.


Well, if they fail to be convinced, then they have a reason for thinking otherwise, however incorrectly. What reasons were given for them thinking otherwise?

[Skree]

Well, if they fail to be convinced, then they have a reason for thinking otherwise, however incorrectly. What reasons were given for them thinking otherwise?

He says that nowhere in the rules it is explicitly stated that you are stile grappling.

He points that in the phrasing of the rule it says "if you escape the grapple" and therefore of you escaped the grapple you can't still be grappling.

I pointed out the pin rule at this Point but he said that it was simply fluff description that was lifted in the rules compendium.

This is his reasoning.

[Stealth Marmot]

Ipecac: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 209. :smallwink:

I didn't expect that to actually be in the game, but that could actually work.

[Necroticplague]

He says that nowhere in the rules it is explicitly stated that you are stile grappling.
Improved Grab shows us that being in their mouth would mean that you're grappled. Swallow Whole even explicitly refers to Improved Grab, to make the link even more obvious.


He points that in the phrasing of the rule it says "if you escape the grapple" and therefore of you escaped the grapple you can't still be grappling.
Except for the fact it immediately follows that with a statement of what happens when you escape the grapple, and it isn't 'you're no longer grappled anymore'. It's a substitution: when you escape the grapple, you do X. This is more specific than the general "if you escape a grapple, you are no longer grappled". The specific of "escaping a grapple while Swallowed puts you back in their mouth*" trumps the general of "escaping a grapple means you're no longer grappled".

*= which, would involve being grappled.

Also, note a key wording about ending up in their mouth:

If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.
So, if you escape the grapple, you're put in some kind of status that would allow them to immediately try to Swallow you again. Now, what kind of status is that again?

If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see Improved Grab**), it can attempt a new grapple check (as though attempting to pin the opponent)
**=an ability that's about grappling.

Now, swallowing someone is 'as though trying to pin them'. You can only pin someone you're grappling. The 'new' grapple check implies that there was always a previous grapple check. Which would mean you're grappling them. So this status has to be 'grappling'. Literally every piece of evidence I can glean from this points towards that conclusion.

[Skree]

I agree with you. And you made more or less the same thoughts i did.

Anyway, i thank you for the time you spent looking at the rules and putting your thoughts here, you have been very helpful and kind, considering i am a total newbie here.

Wish you a good day, evening, or whenever it is for you ^^

[druid zook]

Let's consider a medium sized adventurer swallowed whole by a colossal creature X. Where are you going to escape the grapple to? All the way back to the mouth? Wouldn't it be difficult terrain, and wouldn't you be squeezing all the way?

Would you have LOS/LOE in order to use the Anklet of Translocation?