Help me decide on my Wizard build

[logic_error]

Hi, all.

I have been reading the forums a lot but have posted little as of yet. I recently started attending a new D&D session for the Eberron setting and I wanted to play a wizard, considering I have never played one. Earlier I have played classes such as Psychic Warrior and Duskblade which I enjoyed fairly well. But now, I want to give pure casters a try. I have often heard that Wizards are the most complex characters and thus require a lot of forethought and planning while having to invest a lot into spell collection. I have read the TreantMonk and the Batman guide, but still my experience of earlier games makes me very cautious as to how I should proceed.

My general goals in the game are to:

0) Have fun
1) be very effective in most situations
2) Help the party
3) Roleplay a detective.


And I need your help towards that. The campaign will start at level 1 and end probably around level 10 or so, I feel that this makes most metamagic feats less useful as I will never have spell slots high enough to bring them to bear. Thoughts?

Books: Most Eberron ones, except Sharn and Lords of madness. Most Core + some supplementals; major missing Complete Mage. Complete mage missing sucks, but that's how it is.

From my previous experience of the game master (who is quite cool btw), the challenge will very high with CR generally +1 than usual and maybe even +2. So I expect a bit tough SR to beat if it comes into play.

I am not sure how to play the detective with the wizard. This is a secondary requirement to playing Wizard, otherwise, I would go a rogue. I am also not very interested in playing diviner unless you guys think that it is still a useful investment. I definitely plan to specialize and drop evocation and enchantment (bye bye sleep and charm, I will miss you :( ). I will also not be taking the Investigate feat, as that should be quite circumstantial.

Since this is eberron, for the immersion I will take a Dragonmark for sure. I would be very happy if you could suggest one. The Dragonmark handbook says that the Making mark is the best. as it provides minor creation at the lesser level. I have no clue why this is so. I would be happy to hear the opinion about that as well. The game will be low magic in general, i.e. magic items will not be as powerful and rings and rods will be difficult to obtain.

Finally, I plan to play a Collegiate Wizard. This feat is quite good at supplying bountiful collections of spells and right now I am stuck between choosing a prestige class at level 6 between mage of the arcane order, Fatespinner and Escalation mage. Escalation mage makes the level 3 spells basically free metamagic x times class level with the Arcane Mastery feat. Any thoughts, if that is a good idea?

Sorry, I know this is a bit disjointed, but I will be very happy for any feedback!!!

Thanks in advance!

TLDR:

I want to make a detective specialised wizard in Eberron with a Dragonmark in a low magic, challenging setting low on spell availability ending at level 10. What feats, Prestige classes and mark shall I take?

[lbuttitta]

0) Have fun
1) be very effective in most situations
2) Help the party
3) Roleplay a detective.

When you say "roleplaying a detective", do you mean playing a diviner (or someone who focuses on divination magic)? If so, the dragonmark you are looking for might be either the Mark of Detection, for half-elves, or the Mark of Finding, for half-orcs or humans. My knowledge of the Eberron rules is a bit fuzzy, though, so I might be wrong here.
Divination spells tend not to be too applicable in combat (a few notable exceptions are listed here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1270)), so on top of divinations, you can, and probably should, really take almost any other wizard role as a secondary role, especially with the flexibility granted by Collegiate Wizard. If you're seeking to help the party, as item #2 on your list indicates, buffing/debuffing might be possible, and there are actually a few divinations that can do this, so this might tie in with the divination theme.
I, personally, would choose the Fatespinner over the Escalation Mage, because, as a general rule, wizards, being squishy, should avoid using effects that require them to take damage. Also, worshiping the Shadow seems like it might be troublesome to good-aligned members of your party.

If not, then I'm having trouble understanding what you mean - a good class for a "detective", in my opinion, would not be a wizard without at least a few divination spells. Do you mean such a simple investment as maxing Listen, Spot, and Search? If so, I highly recommend Keen Intellect, which, among other things, allows you to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Spot and Search checks.

[Venger]

if you want to roleplay a detective, more power to you. that doesn't need to be reflected mechanically with your build choices or class levels. wizards, through the use of divination, are already great detectives.

the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) will acquaint you with the basics.

while the church of the silver flame is extremely distasteful, have you considered silver pyromancer? it adds paladin spells to your wizard list, and is one of the few things worth the lost caster level. it'd be up in time for you to have fun with it if your table's not super high op and it's a good fit for your character.

[logic_error]

When you say "roleplaying a detective", do you mean playing a diviner (or someone who focuses on divination magic)? If so, the dragonmark you are looking for might be either the Mark of Detection, for half-elves or the Mark of Finding, for half-orcs or humans. My knowledge of the Eberron rules is a bit fuzzy, though, so I might be wrong here.
Divination spells tend not to be too applicable in combat (a few notable exceptions are listed), so on top of divinations, you can, and probably should, really take almost any other wizard role as a secondary role, especially with the flexibility granted by Collegiate Wizard. If you're seeking to help the party, as item #2 on your list indicates, buffing/debuffing might be possible, and there are actually a few divinations that can do this, so this might tie in with the divination theme.
I, personally, would choose the Fatespinner over the Escalation Mage, because, as a general rule, wizards, being squishy, should avoid using effects that require them to take damage. Also, worshiping the Shadow seems like it might be troublesome to good-aligned members of your party.

If not, then I'm having trouble understanding what you mean - a good class for a "detective", in my opinion, would not be a wizard without at least a few divination spells. Do you mean such a simple investment as maxing Listen, Spot, and Search? If so, I highly recommend Keen Intellect, which, among other things, allows you to use Intelligence instead of Wisdom for Spot and Search checks.


Hi! Thanks for the reply. So I guess it warrants some explanation from my side:

By detective I mean, a Private investigator, in the vein of Bogart's hard-boiled characters. I am all for taking divination spells, and yeah, that means using them to divine information. But I do not wish to specialise in the school unless someone can convince me that it is a good idea. is it?

Also, for Escalation wizard, if I take arcane mastery my auto CL check for level 8 is 18, which is just right for auto heighten level 4 spells. The heighten is obtained at level 2 of Escalation mage, which is level 7 at least. Thus no damage from level 8 for level 4 spells (my max spell level!). Same for more advanced stuff. About the RP aspect of it, I totally agree. But if for a second we can ignore that, is it still a good idea to go this way? The max spell level I will ever get is level 5 anyway. So for level 3 spells the maximum skill check will be 16+ 6 = 22 for auto quicken, which I should have at level 10 with items. Unfortunately, I will never see the full power of the class as it maxes out at level 11, which I don't think I will reach. Despite that, I will always have auto w/o damage metamagic for level 3 spells. I

can skip this route and go MotAO all the way as well. Any suggestions? is metamagic from Escalation mage worth it, for level 3 spells and below if I can ignore the damage?

Skills: I would love to have Search/Spot/Gather Info/ Sense motive on my class list. Can't see an effective way of getting there though :(. A Psion with Seer school works so much better that way. Any suggestions? Also, oriental adventures is not available.



if you want to roleplay a detective, more power to you. that doesn't need to be reflected mechanically with your build choices or class levels. wizards, through the use of divination, are already great detectives.

will acquaint you with the basics.

while the church of the silver flame is extremely distasteful, have you considered silver pyromancer? it adds paladin spells to your wizard list, and is one of the few things worth the lost caster level. it'd be up in time for you to have fun with it if your table's not super high op and it's a good fit for your character.


I read treantmonk's stuff. Very inspiring.

The silver pyromancer Looks stunning. But isn't it two levels of loss? You need turn undead, which is one cleric level added. Or X paladin levels. Also, it seems more suited for Sorcerors than wizards. Too much fire damage :(.

[Venger]

Hi! Thanks for the reply. So I guess it warrants some explanation from my side:

By detective I mean, a Private investigator, in the vein of Bogart's hard-boiled characters. I am all for taking divination spells, and yeah, that means using them to divine information. But I do not wish to specialise in the school unless someone can convince me that it is a good idea. is it?

generally speaking, unless something in your build requires it, specialization's not worth it. just stay generalist, you can still enjoy diviniation.


Also, for Escalation wizard, if I take arcane mastery my auto CL check for level 8 is 18, which is just right for auto heighten level 4 spells. The heighten is obtained at level 2 of Escalation mage, which is level 7 at least. Thus no damage from level 8 for level 4 spells (my max spell level!). Same for more advanced stuff. About the RP aspect of it, I totally agree. But if for a second we can ignore that, is it still a good idea to go this way? The max spell level I will ever get is level 5 anyway. So for level 3 spells the maximum skill check will be 16+ 6 = 22 for auto quicken, which I should have at level 10 with items. Unfortunately, I will never see the full power of the class as it maxes out at level 11, which I don't think I will reach. Despite that, I will always have auto w/o damage metamagic for level 3 spells. I
escalation mage is a very cool class, but its metamagic trickery is only a small number of times a day. if you don't get a lot of encounters each in-game day, it's pretty sweet, but if your gm makes you marathon combat a lot, it might feel a bit like dead space.

check out cataclysm mage as well since it gives a lot of similar powers that are passive and/or always on.


The silver pyromancer Looks stunning. But isn't it two levels of loss? You need turn undead, which is one cleric level added. Or X paladin levels. Also, it seems more suited for Sorcerors than wizards. Too much fire damage :(.
I mean it would be if you did either of those things, but why the heck would you? I assume you'd just go sacred excorcist and enter pyromancer at level 9. you don't care about the fire damage, the draw is paladin spells. leave it after lvl 1 if you like, you've got what you came for.

[Gusmo]

If collegiate wizard interests you, Races of the Wild has some elf wizard special options that include an extra slot of your highest spell level, and one additional spell known per level (5 total, with collegiate wizard). Specifically for a detective, I would check out many of the equipment guides out there, even mundane ones. Mundane breaking and entering has many tools if you look. And for magic items, clever use of marvelous pigments, sovereign glue, and gloves of object reading (Magic Item Compendium) will probably interest you.

[Lazymancer]

I have often heard that Wizards are the most complex characters and thus require a lot of forethought and planning while having to invest a lot into spell collection.
Artificers are worse. And it's not that Wizards "require". You can have a satisfactory experience without much planning. Prepared spellcasters simply suit players who plan. Do you like to plan?


campaign will start at level 1 and end probably around level 10 or so, I feel that this makes most metamagic feats less useful as I will never have spell slots high enough to bring them to bear.
Metamagic is generally used by not being "used". You don't Extend lower-level spells, but cast them via Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend. I.e. you rely on abilities that reduce and/or ignore increase of spell-level from metamagic.

For example, Sudden feats (CArc). First level human wizard can grab Sudden Widen and Sudden Maximize to (once per day) drop an area spell that would've been 7 spell levels higher otherwise.


I am also not very interested in playing diviner ... I expect a bit tough SR to beat if it comes into play.
There are divination spells for beating tough SR. Unfortunately, first level True Casting (+10 to next spell penetration roll) is in CMag. See if you can get at least this spell.

And the real question is if there are Divination spells for each spell level that you will be preparing every day anyway.

Take a look at those spells:
1. True Strike (or True Casting), Instant Locksmith
2. Detect Thoughts, Chain of Eyes, Insidious Insight
3. Alter Fortune, Unluck
4. Assay Spell Resistance, Detect Scrying, Scrying,
5. Prying Eyes


I definitely plan to specialize and drop evocation and enchantment (bye bye sleep and charm, I will miss you :( ).
Diviner has to give up only one school. Also, take a look at Generalist Wizard from Races of the Wild (changelings, elves, and half-elves should qualify). It also has Search as a class skill.


The Dragonmark handbook says that the Making mark is the best. as it provides minor creation at the lesser level. I have no clue why this is so.
The idea is that RAW you can create a bucket of deadly poison over someone's head. Ignore it. You can safely be a human with Mark of Finding - a freelance bounty hunter. Free Identify at early levels is much more useful anyway. Then, Locate Creature if you really want to go down that path (marks aren't that impressive for a Wizard).

Mark of Detection (half-elf) is somewhat underwhelming, until you get to Lesser/Greater versions. Detect Magic should be available at will, imo.

Personally, I'd go with Thuranni elf (Shadow mark), but he'll end up writing treatise on binomial theorem, if you know what I mean.


Finally, I plan to play a Collegiate Wizard. This feat is quite good at supplying bountiful collections of spells and right now I am stuck between choosing a prestige class
There is a minor problem here. RAW Collegiate Wizard applies only to the Wizard class. If you prestige-out you don't get its benefits anymore. Make sure you know what your GM thinks about this before you commit yourself to taking this feat.


Stuff you want to take:
1) Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion: Divination spells are very situational and being able to cast them spontaneously is quite important.
2) Uncanny Forethought from Exemplars of Evil: might not be available, but that's like Natural Spell for druid (or DMM for cleric) - every wizards wants it.
3) Aureon's Spellshard - a mandatory spellbook, provided you have access to spells. Make sure you get access, whatever it takes.

[lbuttitta]

Oops, missed the bit about Arcane Mastery... :smallredface: In that case, you could probably go either way.

I agree with Venger; it would probably be best not to specialize.
And to answer your question about how to get Spot, Listen, Gather Information, Search, etc. as class skills, there is always the everpresent Able Learner, or, if you don't want to be a human, you could possibly:

Dip the Pact domain (SpC) to get Appraise, Intimidate, Sense Motive as class skills
Dip the Trickery domain to get Bluff, Disguise, Hide as class skills
Get the feat Apprentice (Criminal) to get Bluff and Gather Information as class skills
etc.
There is a list of ways to get particular skills as class skills here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0), if desired.

[Mordaedil]

If I were permitted a bit of cheese, I'd probably take 1 level in either rogue or expert at the very start to get a bunch of skill points that I'd divvy to represent my baseline detectiving skill, while multiclass into wizard afterwards to establish that you discovered the occult as a useful aid in helping you progress in solving cases.

That isn't actually all that optimal, so people will likely laugh at the idea of thinking of it as cheese, but 1st level *is* practically the only time you get to time your skillpoints by 4.

[Venger]

If I were permitted a bit of cheese, I'd probably take 1 level in either rogue or expert at the very start to get a bunch of skill points that I'd divvy to represent my baseline detectiving skill, while multiclass into wizard afterwards to establish that you discovered the occult as a useful aid in helping you progress in solving cases.

That isn't actually all that optimal, so people will likely laugh at the idea of thinking of it as cheese, but 1st level *is* practically the only time you get to time your skillpoints by 4.

that is the exact opposite of what cheese is.

[logic_error]

@lazymancer

Thanks! That's a great help! I am stuck between Mark of Finding and Mark of Passage now. Both look awesome, the prior from RP perspective and the latter for the amazing dimensional hop. Also, I have no races of the Wild so all that amazing advice is sadly not very useful for me. But it was enlightening none the less.

I think despite all the odds, I am going to go on a limb here and specialise in divination. The flavour is just too cool to miss. Mark of passage I feel is quite overpowered due to the get out of jail free card twice per day at the lesser level. I am still debating if I should keep it and get the locate creature + identify on my own spell list. identify as a once per day SLA is awesome, but still only 100gp.

How do you get detect magic at will btw? is there an easy way to do that? Also, I just realised that Arcane Mastery is pretty much a super power. With that and the magic tattoo + archmage Spell power, you can basically cast Widen/heighten spells all day every day for free without risk.

For example, for level 7 spells the escalation mage check for widen is 14+14 = 28. With the tattoo +spellpower + arcane mastery + ring of arcane might you have a CL check of 28 at level 15? So *all* you spells up tp level 7 are widened as a swift action. Also, they are all quickened (alternatively) up to level 6 (a check of 28 again). Why is this allowed? And this is all without even considering the that you have 6 quickens free anyway. You don't even need the feat!

[lbuttitta]

You can dip 2 levels of warlock to get detect magic at will.
Alternately, I'm sure there's a magic item for this, and if not, one could be easily homebrewed.

[Lazymancer]

How do you get detect magic at will btw? is there an easy way to do that?
Besides homeruling Mark of Detection (which I meant)? Not really.

Unless you are ready to sacrifice feat (Shape Soulmeld - Disenchanter Mask) or levels (Warlock 2 or Dragonfire Adept 1, which also grants free Identify), your best option is to get an item that allows to do it, but all of those are very expensive. In theory, custom command-word item should cost 900 gp, but I'm not sure GM will allow it (it can be annoying to keep track of and it's not Pathfinder where cantrips are at-will). Arguably, you can also use scroll of Permanency (with 500 XP) for 3,625 gp and Permanency Detect Magic, but beware of Dispels.

That said, Wizard spell slots and wand of Detect Magic (750 gp) should be sufficient, unless you are detecting constantly.


Mark of passage I feel is quite overpowered due to the get out of jail free card twice per day at the lesser level.
I assure you - it is anything but. For a Tier 1 spellcaster, at least.

Let me put things into perspective. In exchange for a familiar, Conjuration Specialist (PHB2, Abrupt Jaunt ACF) can get similar spell-like ability at first level, Int mod times per day. Except it is cast as an immediate action: it is perfectly acceptable to teleport away when someone tries to stab you or shoot you.

[Mordaedil]

Vatic Gaze, requires arcane caster level 9, Detect magic at will, from PHB2.

[logic_error]

Besides homeruling Mark of Detection (which I meant)? Not really.

Unless you are ready to sacrifice feat (Shape Soulmeld - Disenchanter Mask) or levels (Warlock 2 or Dragonfire Adept 1, which also grants free Identify), your best option is to get an item that allows to do it, but all of those are very expensive. In theory, custom command-word item should cost 900 gp, but I'm not sure GM will allow it (it can be annoying to keep track of and it's not Pathfinder where cantrips are at-will). Arguably, you can also use scroll of Permanency (with 500 XP) for 3,625 gp and Permanency Detect Magic, but beware of Dispels.

That said, Wizard spell slots and wand of Detect Magic (750 gp) should be sufficient, unless you are detecting constantly.


I assure you - it is anything but. For a Tier 1 spellcaster, at least.

Let me put things into perspective. In exchange for a familiar, Conjuration Specialist (PHB2, Abrupt Jaunt ACF) can get the similar spell-like ability at first level, Int mod times per day. Except it is cast as an immediate action: it is perfectly acceptable to teleport away when someone tries to stab you or shoot you.

Hmm.. Good to know. I am really not sure of the value of spells as such having never tried anything beyond the psion who does not have to deal with spellbooks :(. I thought that the Passage mark might be useful when I am somehow captured and need to escape without the book. Also, Abrupt jaunt is banned in the game for obvious reasons. Its way too OP.



Vatic Gaze, requires arcane caster level 9, Detect magic at will, from PHB2.

Great find, thanks!

[ATHATH]

Would the Spontaneous Divination ACF interest you? You don't need to be a Diviner to take it, and it (debatably) allows you to cast Divination spells from any spell list.

[logic_error]

Yeah, that debatable part is not really so debatable :(. It should not. However, divination spells are not the most spontaneous spells one might want to cast. Generally as is the case divination is for preparation. If you really have to cast them in battle, then you done goofed up, I think. It would be a bad sacrifice.

I like the RP theme of this feature, but the problem is that it is at the cost of effectiveness. I do not wish to compromise there :(.

EDIT

Thank you all for the awesome feedback!

Right now, I am tending towards:

Human Wizard, Conjuration specialisation, ban evocation and enchantment, Collegiate wizard, Dragonmark (Making for game effectiveness reasons although this tears me to pieces)
Take Extend spell on level 3
Take cooperative spell on level 5 from Wizard Bonus feat
Take Lesser Dragonmark on level 6 and become Mage of the Arcane Order for that sweet Spellpool 1
Take Sculpt spell on level 7 (MotAO bonus feat)
Take a level in Escalation mage
Another level of escalation mage and Arcane mastery feat (at this point my default CL check is 19, enough to auto heighten ALL my up to level 4 spells and with some gear ALL my up to level 5 spells). This is practically the same as having Spell Focus in all schools known.
Another (final) level of escalation mage (at this point CL check is 20, enough to EMPOWER all my up to level 4 spells.)


The best benefit of the mark of Making is the spell Summon Homunculus at level 1, which is a 1hr/level summon. An arbalest Homunculus with +7 ranged to hit is an excellent summon. It dies with an explosion to do 1d6 damage too! Useful till death. I would appreciate some feedback into more optimisation!