Undead Houserule

[Death_Lord12]

One of my players is playing a Dread Necromancer, and I would like him to have as much freedom when it comes to selecting minions as possible. So I have looked at several undead throughout almost every book I can find, and I notice most of them do not have specific ways of creating them. I was wondering if it would be balanced to allow the player to create any of these, within reason. Perhaps a CR limit such as 1/2 caster level is the maximum CR he can create, and of course some of the undead would most likely have specific requirements to create them. Can anyone assist me in creating a balanced house rule that will allow my player to have a wider variety of minions?

For example, say the player wanted to have a Skin Kite (Libris Mortis pg 119) as a minion. From what I can tell, there is no way to create this creature. So what would be a sufficient house rule in order to let the player create this? Using the example of CR = 1/2 CL, and possible special requirements, would it be balanced to say the player must have a caster level of 6 in order to create the 3 CR Skin Kite? And possible require the skin of a creature as well for a special requirement.

[Coidzor]

For the most part, look at Bloodhulks and consider Pathfinder's constributions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514107-PF-Lists-of-Undead-Creation-and-Creatable-Undead#post21858481), mainly Beheaded, Frostfallen Creatures, Isitoqs, and Necrocrafts.

If the campaign features mostly nothing but humanoid opponents, then Necrocrafts and Bloodhulks are the things to consider.

[Zanos]

Do they only fight humans in the campaign? You can make a skeleton or zombie out of most creatures.

[Calthropstu]

Do they only fight humans in the campaign? You can make a skeleton or zombie out of most creatures.

I see no rule against making ooze skeletons...

[Fey]

I see no rule against making ooze skeletons...

Except the part of the spell that literally says "The corpse must have bones."

[BananaNomNom]

I see no rule against making ooze skeletons...


"Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

That is the reason.

[Coidzor]

Do they only fight humans in the campaign? You can make a skeleton or zombie out of most creatures.

Even if they are, well, you can always buy a cow if there's the ability to exchange goods or currency for goods and/or services or go hunt down some beefalo.

[Death_Lord12]

Do they only fight humans in the campaign? You can make a skeleton or zombie out of most creatures.

They fight a variety of creatures, but my question was not what the player can make skeletons/zombies out of. To clarify, say the player wanted to have a Skin Kite (Libris Mortis pg 119) as a minion. From what I can tell, there is no way to create this creature. So what would be a sufficient house rule in order to let the player create this? Using the example in my original post of CR = 1/2 CL, and possible special requirements, would it be balanced to say the player must have a caster level of 6 in order to create the 3 CR Skin Kite? And possible require the skin of a creature as well for a special requirement.

I would like the player to have as much variety as he wants, so if someone could assist in creating a balanced formula for creating undead it would be much appreciated.

[Zanos]

They fight a variety of creatures, but my question was not what the player can make skeletons/zombies out of. To clarify, say the player wanted to have a Skin Kite (Libris Mortis pg 119) as a minion. From what I can tell, there is no way to create this creature. So what would be a sufficient house rule in order to let the player create this? Using the example in my original post of CR = 1/2 CL, and possible special requirements, would it be balanced to say the player must have a caster level of 6 in order to create the 3 CR Skin Kite? And possible require the skin of a creature as well for a special requirement.

I would like the player to have as much variety as he wants, so if someone could assist in creating a balanced formula for creating undead it would be much appreciated.
There probably isn't a fair formula for all undead creatures, many of them are quite varied and don't have abilities that were ever intended to be balanced for PC use.

There is a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181.0) of stuff you can make if he wants to get exotic, though.

[BananaNomNom]

I would like the player to have as much variety as he wants, so if someone could assist in creating a balanced formula for creating undead it would be much appreciated.

I personally see this feat as balanced but you could most likely adapt it the way you want

Feed the Dark Gods [Necromantic]
You have attracted the attention of dark gods and demon lords, and they are willing to grant dark life to your creations in exchange for pain and power.
Prerequisite: Any two Necromantic feats, Character Level 7, 10 ranks in Knowledge (Religion)
Benefit: You may create any undead creature through the art of sacrifice. For every CR of the creature you wish to create, you must sacrifice one sentient soul (Int of 5 or better) and 500 gp. For example, if you wish to create a CR 8 Slaughterwight, you must sacrifice eight sentients and 4,000 gp. You cannot create any undead with a CR greater than two less than your character level. You automatically control up to your unmodified Charisma modifier in undead created by this feat, but no undead can have a CR greater than two less than your character level.

[OldTrees1]

One of my players is playing a Dread Necromancer, and I would like him to have as much freedom when it comes to selecting minions as possible. So I have looked at several undead throughout almost every book I can find, and I notice most of them do not have specific ways of creating them. I was wondering if it would be balanced to allow the player to create any of these, within reason. Perhaps a CR limit such as 1/2 caster level is the maximum CR he can create, and of course some of the undead would most likely have specific requirements to create them. Can anyone assist me in creating a balanced house rule that will allow my player to have a wider variety of minions?

For example, say the player wanted to have a Skin Kite (Libris Mortis pg 119) as a minion. From what I can tell, there is no way to create this creature. So what would be a sufficient house rule in order to let the player create this? Using the example of CR = 1/2 CL, and possible special requirements, would it be balanced to say the player must have a caster level of 6 in order to create the 3 CR Skin Kite? And possible require the skin of a creature as well for a special requirement.

I would need to understand exactly what you are planning on altering in order to give the best advice I can.

The Dread Necromancer has 3 main control pools (although you might be intending to add a pool, see the feat in the post above mine):
Animate Dead(limited by HD, limited to undead like skeletons, awakened skeletons, zombies, etc)
Command Undead spell(limited by casts, limited to mindless undead like skeletons, zombies, etc)
Rebuke Undead(limited by HD, able to control almost any kind of undead)

I think you are asking about creating a homebrew ritual by which the PC can create the undead they wish to control with their Rebuke Pool. Is this correct?

If so then you run into 2 minor concerns:
1) CR identifies the strength of a creature in the sole encounter of its existence. Some undead(incorporeal for example) have abilities that are much more useful when they stick around longer than 1 encounter.
2) Rebuke Undead is limited by HD which is largely independent from undead CR. So by only knowing the CR you will not be estimating how many of those undead the Dread Necromancer can field.

However CR is a good metric to start with. I would suggest going with it with 2 changes:
1) Rebuke Undead still works of HD, but the control limit is based on CR. They cannot control a group of undead with a combined CR stronger than their class level - 2.
2) Feel free to fine tune the CR of undead with respect to this when the undead is much more useful than its CR implies.

[Calthropstu]

That is the reason.

Awww, my dream is shattered. I wanted a skeletal ooze. I could pet it and squeeze it and call it george...

[Remuko]

That is the reason.

it says has A skeletal system. Never says it has to be its own! Throw a cow at it. Let it eat the cow. It now contains a cow skeleton. A cow skeletal system is possessed by the ooze. It can now become an Ooze skeleton.

[OldTrees1]

it says has A skeletal system. Never says it has to be its own! Throw a cow at it. Let it eat the cow. It now contains a cow skeleton. A cow skeletal system is possessed by the ooze. It can now become an Ooze skeleton.


S-Cube
Size/Type: Large Undead
HD: 4d12+misc Ask you neighborhood necromancer.
Speed: 15ft
AC: 7 (-4 Dex, -1 size, +2 natural) What is this natural armor from?
BAB/Grapple: +2/+2
Attack: Slam +2 melee 1d6 plus 1d6 Acid (Fort DC 12 vs 3d6 rounds of paralysis)
Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, undead traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref -3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 3, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 1


Acid (Ex)
A s-cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.

Paralysis (Ex)
A s-cube secretes an anesthetizing slime. A target hit by a cube’s melee must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

[Quertus]

Let's not forget 3.0 had... what... Create Undead?... that allowed you to create certain undead at certain levels. That would be a good starting point, too.

But, honestly, the ability to turn the undead is the real limiting factor for most necromancy.

[Zanos]

I personally see this feat as balanced but you could most likely adapt it the way you want

Feed the Dark Gods [Necromantic]
You have attracted the attention of dark gods and demon lords, and they are willing to grant dark life to your creations in exchange for pain and power.
Prerequisite: Any two Necromantic feats, Character Level 7, 10 ranks in Knowledge (Religion)
Benefit: You may create any undead creature through the art of sacrifice. For every CR of the creature you wish to create, you must sacrifice one sentient soul (Int of 5 or better) and 500 gp. For example, if you wish to create a CR 8 Slaughterwight, you must sacrifice eight sentients and 4,000 gp. You cannot create any undead with a CR greater than two less than your character level. You automatically control up to your unmodified Charisma modifier in undead created by this feat, but no undead can have a CR greater than two less than your character level.
Oh right, super leadership. Seems legit.

[Bohandas]

Even if they are, well, you can always buy a cow if there's the ability to exchange goods or currency for goods and/or services or go hunt down some beefalo.

That's a good point

[ATHATH]

Oh right, super leadership. Seems legit.
Yeah, it seems a little overboard.

I think the system that you outlined in the OP is fine, with the caveat that you are free to alter, insert difficult rituals for creating, or ban any given undead on a case by case basis, possibly retroactively (the dark gods are "raising their prices", so to speak, or perhaps there's a shortage of the necessary kinds of souls for that kind/those kinds of undead).

[Death_Lord12]

I think you are asking about creating a homebrew ritual by which the PC can create the undead they wish to control with their Rebuke Pool. Is this correct?
That was not my original idea, but I believe this will actually be a better method.


If so then you run into 2 minor concerns:
1) CR identifies the strength of a creature in the sole encounter of its existence. Some undead(incorporeal for example) have abilities that are much more useful when they stick around longer than 1 encounter.
2) Rebuke Undead is limited by HD which is largely independent from undead CR. So by only knowing the CR you will not be estimating how many of those undead the Dread Necromancer can field.
I will double check the stats of anything he wishes to create before I allow him to create them and keep this in mind for any changes that may need done.


I think the system that you outlined in the OP is fine, with the caveat that you are free to alter, insert difficult rituals for creating, or ban any given undead on a case by case basis, possibly retroactively (the dark gods are "raising their prices", so to speak, or perhaps there's a shortage of the necessary kinds of souls for that kind/those kinds of undead).
I was thinking the same idea with that caveat, and I believe I will keep the original system but use the Rebuke Undead ability to be able to create the undead via a ritual.

Thanks for the assistance everyone.

[Bohandas]

The Dread Necromancer has 3 main control pools (although you might be intending to add a pool, see the feat in the post above mine):
Animate Dead(limited by HD, limited to undead like skeletons, awakened skeletons, zombies, etc)
Command Undead spell(limited by casts, limited to mindless undead like skeletons, zombies, etc)
Rebuke Undead(limited by HD, able to control almost any kind of undead)


Depending on what sourcebooks are allowed possibly Black Binding as well

[Coidzor]

Depending on what sourcebooks are allowed possibly Black Binding as well

What's this now and where is it from?

[Doctor Awkward]

Depending on what sourcebooks are allowed possibly Black Binding as well

Isn't that from the d20 Call of Cthulhu book?

EDIT: Yup. Sure is.

Cost: 3 Int damage and 1d6 Sanity, 1 action, One corpse touched.

It only works on dead animals and humanoids though.

[Bohandas]

Isn't that from the d20 Call of Cthulhu book?

EDIT: Yup. Sure is.

Cost: 3 Int damage and 1d6 Sanity, 1 action, One corpse touched.

It only works on dead animals and humanoids though.

They had a guide in the back of the book for integrating the book's material into D&D