A Problem with Priya?

[Anthrowhale]

Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum) is a build which uses Spelldance from the Spelldancer PRC on Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) to persist most desirable spells.

I was staring at the Spelldancer class today, and realized there is a plausibly fatal flaw.


(Spells from the schools of Invocation and Necromancy can't be enhanced via spelldancing.)

Invocation is from earlier editions of dnd, and was essentially an alias for Evocation as wikipedia details (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons). Since there is no "school of Invocation" this is almost certainly an uncaught typo for Evocation. There isn't any rule for how you resolve a nonsense sentence (which this is through reference to Invocation), but a very reasonable thing to do is to simply fix the typo to Evocation as far as interpretation goes.

But then you can't Spelldance Miracle which is an Evocation. This is true even when Miracle is used to duplicate a spell of another school because you still need to cast an Evocation spell (Miracle) to do the duplication.

Am I missing something?

[Technetium43]

Incantatrix is used to Persist Necromancy and Evocation spells.

[Venger]

Priya (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum) is a build which uses Spelldance from the Spelldancer PRC on Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) to persist most desirable spells.

I was staring at the Spelldancer class today, and realized there is a plausibly fatal flaw.

Invocation is from earlier editions of dnd, and was essentially an alias for Evocation as wikipedia details (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons). Since there is no "school of Invocation" this is almost certainly an uncaught typo for Evocation. There isn't any rule for how you resolve a nonsense sentence (which this is through reference to Invocation), but a very reasonable thing to do is to simply fix the typo to Evocation as far as interpretation goes.

But then you can't Spelldance Miracle which is an Evocation. This is true even when Miracle is used to duplicate a spell of another school because you still need to cast an Evocation spell (Miracle) to do the duplication.

Am I missing something?

Yes.

priya persists those spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15110369&postcount=6) spelldancing's bar on the schools is already incorporated into the build.

[Anthrowhale]

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I don't think my point is getting across so let me try again.

Spelldance is a modified form of casting. In particular it says:


When she finishes spelldancing, she makes a Perform check ... If she succeeds, she casts the spell...

This is quite different from Metamagic Effect(Incantatrix) which applies to already cast spells.

So the concern is that Spelldance[Persistent Spell+Miracle[Alter Self]] does not work because you cannot Spelldance Miracle. The fact that the Miracle is used to duplicate Alter Self (a transmutation spell) is irrelevant because the test for whether or not you can Spelldance is applied at the beginning of the Spelldance when what you do with the Miracle is undefined.

Another way of putting this is to look at the following transformations of the text:


Spells from the schools of Invocation ... can't be enhanced via spelldancing.



Spells from the schools of Evocation ... can't be enhanced via spelldancing.



Miracle ... can't be enhanced via spelldancing.

[Venger]

Right. Priya doesn't spelldance spells from those schools.

[Bucky]

Priya needs to spelldance only two spells, Time Stop and Absorption. Miracle is cast using Absorption charges.

[Anthrowhale]

Priya needs to spelldance only two spells, Time Stop and Absorption. Miracle is cast using Absorption charges.

Spelldance inside Time Stop does not work without "apparent time" stacking, which should not be legal according to spell stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects). That's why I made the clockwork wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time). In that thread, you'll see a careful discussion of this issue with cruiser1 resulting in no viable solution for Priya or simple modifications of Priya. Look under "Not Infinite Spells->Modified Priya" for discussion about the best modification I could come up with.

The Priya build says:
To get free metamagic to apply Repeat Spell to Absorption (or to apply Persist Spell to whatever buff) Spelldance before casting it, or use Incantatrix. I think you are saying is that it should really read:

To apply Repeat Spell to Absorption Spelldance before casting it. To apply Persist Spell to buffs use Incantatrix.

This means all persistent spells have to be done through Metamagic Effect from BoBs. But does that actually work? This requires a spellcraft check of 60(=18+(3x(8+6)) from BoBs with only mundane gear and no spell access.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This means all persistent spells have to be done through Metamagic Effect from BoBs. But does that actually work? This requires a spellcraft check of 60(=18+(3x(8+6)) from BoBs with only mundane gear and no spell access.

Take 10 + 23 ranks + 2 synergy (K:Arcana) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (MW Tool) +10 (int bonus) = automatic 50 on a spellcraft check naked.

You can get more (Mage's Spectacles soulmeld, butterfly familiar, Greater Heroism, Fox's Cunning, etc.), but that's pretty much what i'd expect a level 20 Incantatrix to have.
And it's not like you can't hand off your +10 competence to spellcraft item or other gear during your buff routine. Just because BoB clones aren't created with magical gear doesn't mean they can't use it.
You can also have the BoB clones use Aid Another for a +2 per clone.
If you have an Item Familiar that one should work for clones, since it's a feat. Your DM may disagree though.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Also, you cant use persist spell feat.

Persist Spell feat is very restrictive and specific. We cant apply persist spell on miracle.

[Venger]

Also, you cant use persist spell feat.

Persist Spell feat is very restrictive and specific. We cant apply persist spell on miracle.

Miracle's details mimic the spell it apes. The buffs priya persists are legal persist targets.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Miracle's details mimic the spell it apes. The buffs priya persists are legal persist targets.

Miracle dont mimic detail duplicated spells. It's only a house rule.

You can twin Miracle, but not twin your duplicate spells. Persist spells is super restrictive and cant be used on Miracle or Wish or Limited Wish.

[Venger]

Miracle dont mimic detail duplicated spells. It's only a house rule.

You can twin Miracle, but not twin your duplicate spells. Persist spells is super restrictive and cant be used on Miracle or Wish or Limited Wish.

yes it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

yes it does[/url]

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes


Nothing of this qualify to Persist Spell feat, and NOTHING on text said that.


It's really need DM interpretation. But, Very restrictive feat work on full variable spell, It dont work or controversial.

[Venger]

Instantaneous spells, and spells without a fixed or personal range are the only ones that are ineligible for persisting.

miracle is neither of these. the characteristics of a spell you may wish to persist, such as delay death, for example, are what you use to determine whether or not it is a legal target. there is no interpretation or house ruling required.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Instantaneous spells, and spells without a fixed or personal range are the only ones that are ineligible for persisting.

miracle is neither of these. the characteristics of a spell you may wish to persist, such as delay death, for example, are what you use to determine whether or not it is a legal target. there is no interpretation or house ruling required.

Wrong, To persist MUST be "not instantaneous, Fixed or Personagel range", Very restrictive. All others cant be persisting.
U are reading wrongly.
Miracle, Wish, Limited Wish full variable and nothing on text say about it.
Cant use Persist Spell feat.

[icefractal]

Note the "see text" on all of Miracles fields, including Range and Duration.
It has the values for those fields of the spell it duplicates. So Miracle (Detect Magic) has a Range: 60' and Duration: Concentration.

If the duplicated spell was a separate effect from Miracle, it would have Duration: Instantaneous, an Effect rather than a Range or Area, and Saving Throw: None. Probably SR: None too, since it isn't targeting anything.

That last one is an interesting point about Miracle I hadn't noticed - it always has SR, even if you mimic Orb of Fire or the like with it.

[JBPuffin]

Wait...Miracle doesn't have any of that stuff that it can't have. "Must be not" is quite an inclusive clause. Now if Miracle took on the traits of the spell post-casting, and you used those to see if it qualifies, that might apply depending on the effect, but it does mean that spells that aren't one of those three things are Miracle Persistable at minimum, if not the others (which probably still are). If Dragon/Draco/Draggy Drakkerson has anything else to say on the manner, well...I wish him the best, but the fleet of advocates has had a while to prepare itself for this assault, so I think consensus will prevail. Good luck, 3e experts. Strike back against the darkness!

[Anthrowhale]

Take 10 + 23 ranks + 2 synergy (K:Arcana) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (MW Tool) +10 (int bonus) = automatic 50 on a spellcraft check naked.

Should your inherent bonuses apply to your duplicate? I'd guess no on the theory that inherent bonuses are strictly associated with you and a BoB is definitely not you. Priya has Int 16 for a +3 bonus which does not increase with level as Priya is a Sorcerer. This places us at 43 for Priya.



You can get more (Mage's Spectacles soulmeld, butterfly familiar, Greater Heroism, Fox's Cunning, etc.), but that's pretty much what i'd expect a level 20 Incantatrix to have.
And it's not like you can't hand off your +10 competence to spellcraft item or other gear during your buff routine. Just because BoB clones aren't created with magical gear doesn't mean they can't use it.
You can also have the BoB clones use Aid Another for a +2 per clone.
If you have an Item Familiar that one should work for clones, since it's a feat. Your DM may disagree though.

I would not expect Item Familiar or Familiar to work. The build is feat constrained so slapping on soulmelds seems iffy.

Using Spells: Greater Heroism (+4 Morale), Fox's Cunning (+2 from Int+4(enhance)), Prayer (+1 luck), Share Talents(+2), Wieldskill(+5 Competence), Interfaith blessing: Boccob +1 = +15, getting things up to +58. Not quite there, but probably close enough the BoB could not take 10, only succeed 45% of the time and have that work.

The native duration of BoB is only 1 minute so you probably want to persist the first BoB manually, then drop the above spell load, then have BoBs persist future BoBs.


...
...

If a spell has a range of "Personal or Touch" like Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) is it a valid target for Persistent Spell? I'd have to say yes because it is a spell with a personal range (that also just happens to have a touch range). Can you use Persistent Invisibility as a touch range spell? I'd say no here because although Persistent spell is not restricted in application, its effects only apply to personal or fixed range spells.

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours.
In particular an Invisibility Spell cast at touch range does not satisfy the criteria.

I think the above logic applies to the discussion of Miracle. Persistent Spell can apply to Miracle, but only when it duplicates a spell with the requisite characteristics.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Should your inherent bonuses apply to your duplicate? I'd guess no on the theory that inherent bonuses are strictly associated with you and a BoB is definitely not you. Priya has Int 16 for a +3 bonus which does not increase with level as Priya is a Sorcerer. This places us at 43 for Priya.
Inherent bonuses are instantaneous and they're not magic. They're part of you, so i see no reason why they wouldn't be duplicated by BoB.


I would not expect Item Familiar or Familiar to work. The build is feat constrained so slapping on soulmelds seems iffy.
It's "ask your DM" territory. Your clones have the class feature in question and they're copies of you, so i don't see why they wouldn't work with your familiar/item familiar. YMMV.


Using Spells: Greater Heroism (+4 Morale), Fox's Cunning (+2 from Int+4(enhance)), Prayer (+1 luck), Share Talents(+2), Wieldskill(+5 Competence), Interfaith blessing: Boccob +1 = +15, getting things up to +58. Not quite there, but probably close enough the BoB could not take 10, only succeed 45% of the time and have that work.
If you dropped 10,000gp on a +10 competence item (or better) there's no reason why you can't hand it off to your clones for buff persisting. It's not like the Priya build has much in the way of gear requirements.
You also forgot Aid Another, since you can help your clone (and your clones can help each other).


The native duration of BoB is only 1 minute so you probably want to persist the first BoB manually, then drop the above spell load, then have BoBs persist future BoBs.
You can also have one of the clones of the first batch persist the BoB. 1 minute is plenty of time even if you have to cast 9 buffs first. No reason to waste your own uses.

[Anthrowhale]

Inherent bonuses are instantaneous and they're not magic. They're part of you, so i see no reason why they wouldn't be duplicated by BoB.


Ambiguity abounds here, but I think you are right on close inspection. If you have graft for example, it is sort-of nonmagical equipment which is explicitly duplicated. There is little difference between a graft and an inherent bonus. That adds +2 or +3 to the spellcraft check.



It's "ask your DM" territory. Your clones have the class feature in question and they're copies of you, so i don't see why they wouldn't work with your familiar/item familiar. YMMV.


This seems much shakier to me. Yes, you have the class feature, but you are a different creature. Two different wizards with a crow familiar don't use the same crow, even if their twins or Simulacrums.



If you dropped 10,000gp on a +10 competence item (or better) there's no reason why you can't hand it off to your clones for buff persisting. It's not like the Priya build has much in the way of gear requirements.


I was trying to succeed without custom items as that requires DM intervention.



You also forgot Aid Another, since you can help your clone (and your clones can help each other).


Again, I'd like to avoid DM intervention. Aid Another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#aidAnother) says:
In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
When thinking about what's possible, it seems better to design around the principle that the DM says 'no' rather than 'yes' since then the design will apply more broadly.



You can also have one of the clones of the first batch persist the BoB. 1 minute is plenty of time even if you have to cast 9 buffs first. No reason to waste your own uses.

Rush-cast buffs can't benefit from free casting as you can't do them in the repeat loop. That's probably fine here, but it bears keeping in mind.

Using the inherent bonus, we get up to exactly a 60 spellcraft check, so yes, we can persist everything using BoBs.