The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Inevitability]

Please post in the new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?532012-The-LA-assignment-thread-III-Now-in-HD!&p=22249174), thanks in advance.

For people confused about this thread's purpose, see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485938-The-LA-assignment-thread). For people who want to browse the currently-reviewed creatures and templates there's the archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987). A link to the first thread can be found there as well.

And as for the thread title...


The em dash does not exist in this thread! Begone! :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Kobold

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG161b.jpg

The infamous kobold, centerpiece of a number of exploits I won't bother listing all here.

There isn't really a lot I can say here. Kobolds make good sorcerers, decent rogues and reasonable bards. They have wildly unbalanced stats, light sensitivity, some natural weapons and armor, darkvision, and a handful of skill bonuses. +0 LA, which everyone hopefully agrees with.

Note that kobolds are much weaker (potentially enough for a -0) if not built well. A constitution penalty and lack of real racial traits will see to that.

And before anyone asks: no, Dragonwrought is not enough reason to give kobolds a LA. Balance efforts should be directed at the feat, not the broader group that can take it.

[Agahnim]

Can't wait for the Sahuagin!

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can't wait for the Sahuagin!
That's still a while off! Next up is the kraken, though, which would be fun to play.

[Celestia]

I like kobolds. And not just for their dairy farming tendency. I think they're cool and funny simply by themselves. Plus, Tucker's Kobolds is always fun. Someday, I want to run a dungeon like that. :belkar:

[RedWarlock]

Yay new thread.

Is it mainly the secondary features that rate kobolds as +0? I seem to recall their base racials alone being underwhelming.

[Inevitability]

Yay new thread.

Is it mainly the secondary features that rate kobolds as +0? I seem to recall their base racials alone being underwhelming.

Secondary features help a lot, but kobolds are still usable as a standalone race. Three natural attacks, with a fourth available for a feat, is pretty great on a rogue.

Without the web enhancement update and the secondary options... yeah, in that case -0 could be argued.

[remetagross]

They have have

Typo here. On an unrelated note, the former thread lasted just shy of one whole year...and how many monsters have been dealt with during that time? We can evaluate the thread's assessing speed and try and guess how long it will take to finish MMI :smallsmile:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Let's compare an invisible stalker to whisper gnome rogue 8 (wielding a poison ring)...
Which runs into philosophical questions of the optimization-level we should be comparing the monsters to. Speaking of which...



The infamous kobold, centerpiece of a number of exploits I won't bother listing all here.
I feel like there should be a note that, without the right supporting feats, the kobold is a -0. It's like a tallfellow halfling with +1 natural armor, slightly increased speed, a couple of questionably-useful skill bonuses, and access to some neat dragon-themed stuff in exchange for -2 Constitution, some penalties that don't matter much if you play right, and the loss of halflings' racial abilities (more skill bonuses, a bonus to saves, morale...)
Also, what natural weapons do they get? Or are you assuming one of the kobold-specific feats?

[Inevitability]

Typo fixed!


Which runs into philosophical questions of the optimization-level we should be comparing the monsters to.

That build is mid-optimization at most. Single-classed gnome rogue with a slightly obscure weapon doesn't qualify as unreasonably strong in my book.


I feel like there should be a note that, without the right supporting feats, the kobold is a -0. It's like a tallfellow halfling with +1 natural armor, slightly increased speed, a couple of questionably-useful skill bonuses, and access to some neat dragon-themed stuff in exchange for -2 Constitution, some penalties that don't matter much if you play right, and the loss of halflings' racial abilities (more skill bonuses, a bonus to saves, morale...)
Also, what natural weapons do they get? Or are you assuming one of the kobold-specific feats?

Will add a note to that extent.

Natural weapons can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Two claws, one bite. The damage dice are bad, but getting bonus damage on each attack helps.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Natural weapons can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Two claws, one bite. The damage dice are bad, but getting bonus damage on each attack helps.
Huh. Didn't know that was a thing. Those extra abilities certainly make them not ridiculously underpowered without RoD material.

[Segev]

Regarding the Invisible Stalker's lack of Hide skill...remember that being invisible is a +40 to Hide checks on its own.

[Inevitability]

Regarding the Invisible Stalker's lack of Hide skill...remember that being invisible is a +40 to Hide checks on its own.

Only if you're completely immobile: otherwise it's just +20.

A stalker without ranks may have +20 to hide, but my earlier example PC has the same bonus (+1 dexterity, +4 size, +4 racial, +11 ranks).

[AMX]

And before anyone asks: no, Dragonwrought is not enough reason to give kobolds a LA. Balance efforts should be directed at the feat, not the broader group that can take it.

Which reminds me - does anybody know why that's a feat?
Inherited Template would seem more logical to me... :smallconfused:

[remetagross]

Since it can only be taken at first level, it basically is a template that costs a feat rather than an LA adjustment.

[Zancloufer]

Kobold's actually make terrifying rouges. Small Size (+1 Hit/AC and +4 hide), +2 Dex, +2 to two skills that a rouge would appreciate, 3 natural weapons Darkvsion and +1 NA. I mean with that Str and Con penalty they hit like a wet noodle and take hits as well as one, but a Rouge doesn't have much in the way of surviving hits or dealing damage outside of Precision damage and just not being hit. Daylight sensitivity sucks but it's only -1 and can be solved by a cheap non-magic item.

Probably make half-decent a Sorcerer as well with all the possible Dragon related splat support. LA+0 for sure.

[remetagross]

Kobold's actually make terrifying rouges. Small Size (+1 Hit/AC and +4 hide), +2 Dex, +2 to two skills that a rouge would appreciate, 3 natural weapons Darkvsion and +1 NA. I mean with that Str and Con penalty they hit like a wet noodle and take hits as well as one, but a Rouge doesn't have much in the way of surviving hits or dealing damage outside of Precision damage and just not being hit. Daylight sensitivity sucks but it's only -1 and can be solved by a cheap non-magic item.

Probably make half-decent a Sorcerer as well with all the possible Dragon related splat support. LA+0 for sure.

And the Slight Build alternate racial feature described in Inevitability's post above gives them a further +4 to Hide!

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, even without splat content, kobold is +0. If you put a kobold rogue next to a halfling rogue, the kobold will have slightly worse stats, which translates to a bunch of -1s and -2s on some checks. But he's not unplayable. He's not 10 levels behind in his progression. At level 20 you'll scarcely see the difference.

[Inevitability]

Kraken

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG162.jpg

Not going to make the obvious CotT joke. Instead, here's (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/d8/c5/4f/d8c54f85d13a616bb5dfbbd4ca7f2871.jpg) a bad pun!

Krakens are Gargantuan, aquatic magical beasts (have fun exploring dungeons) with 20 HD. Even post-mouthpick, they've got eight natural attacks (though six of them are pretty weak). Unsurprisingly, they're great grapplers, with each limb getting Improved Grab, Constrict and 30 to 60 feet reach. Everything that is to be said about teleportation and FoM at these levels has been said before.

As with all D&D octopodiformes, they've got the ability to create clouds of ink (useful if your entire party has blindsight), and jet at high speeds. Note that neither ability requires being underwater.

There's also a handful of SLAs, each usable once per day, with not even half the kraken's HD as CL. Don't expect anything impressive from them.

Compared to similarly-leveled characters, both monsters and PCs, a kraken will simply fall short. -0 LA.

[javcs]

Krakens are negative LA for sure.
Although ... they do get some useful skills as racial class skills, with 20 RHD, having Use Magic Device as a racial skill is not enough to pull them out of the suck-zone.


Especially since their tentacles/arms can be Sundered as normal weapons, and have 20 and 10 hp, respectively. That's low enough limb hp that they're basically going to be one-shotted by pretty much everyone/everything.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would you allow a kraken with 2-4 class levels in an ECL 20 party (with level 20 WBL)?

Hmm. Well, it'd be a pretty nice übercharger/melee BFC, likely with an initiator level or two, unlimited AoOs (epic feat) if the dexterity requirement is met, and otherwise, not much. Certainly has nothing on the spellcasters (who can, incidentally, shapechange into krakens). Maybe stronger in their niche than t3 melee specialists, but much less versatile than, say, totem ragers, MoMF rangers, and gishes.

In the end, I think I would accept a classed kraken at ECL 20 (I mean, as DM I'd allow the kraken to drop some RHD, but assuming it's a yes/no matter). I'm voting LA -0.

[Segev]

Especially for things in the 18+ HD range, I think a fair way to judge if they're LA -0 or not is to ask, "Can a Sorcerer using shapechange to pretend to be a member of this monster race be a better PC than playing this monster?"

Not 100% fair, given that Sorcerer is T2, and it's hard to keep shapechange up 24/7, but it's still a reasonable judge, I think. Because an 18th level Sorcerer could do that with the right build. So if you're better off playing a ECL 0 race Sorcerer who is level 18+ if you want to be a particular creature, then that creature probably has LA -0. Or even lower, except we're not going lower than that.

[remetagross]

Yeah, they don't make for a very powerful or even handy to use character.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Is this the largest creature that's been rated? Sizes larger than Huge and smaller than Small are pretty rare.

[Celestia]

Is this the largest creature that's been rated? Sizes larger than Huge and smaller than Small are pretty rare.
There are plenty of creatures smaller than small. I think most of them are animals, though. Fine size, though, I think is the rarest of all.


Also, to answer your question, no. Dragons were rated, and they get up to colossal.

[bekeleven]

Regarding the Invisible Stalker's lack of Hide skill...remember that being invisible is a +40 to Hide checks on its own.

Remember: the invisibility hiding rules are literally the devil and should not be trusted. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17713884&postcount=866)

[MesiDoomstalker]

There are plenty of creatures smaller than small. I think most of them are animals, though. Fine size, though, I think is the rarest of all.


Also, to answer your question, no. Dragons were rated, and they get up to colossal.

I didn't say they were non-existent, just rare. Its probably because the designers thought that tough things should only be big (I suppose there is a psychological term to describe this). Also, I forgot Dragons and lumped them together in the smaller sizes.

[danielxcutter]

Can somebody explain the name of the new thread to me? I assume it's some sort of witty reference....

[Inevitability]

Can somebody explain the name of the new thread to me? I assume it's some sort of witty reference....

In D&D, the em dash (—) is sometimes used in a monster's LA entry to indicate the monster is unplayable. It essentially says 'LA for this creature does not exist, and will never exist'. Part of this thread is giving a LA to such creatures.

[Agahnim]

+0 sounds fair. At that level, a kraken can easily afford magic items or spells to become amphibious... and then the fun begins :smallamused:

[Inevitability]

LA altered to -0 by popular request.

[Inevitability]

Krenshar

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG163.jpg

Don't believe d20srd! Krenshars are actually already playable: the (cohort) bit is a typo. This places the krenshar amongst those rare few nonhumanoids that are playable by default.

Krenshars have two magical beast hit dice. They are more dextrous, wise and charismatic than humans, but suffer in the intelligence department. Their speed is a bit on the low side for a medium quadruped, but fine compared to other PCs. Their bite and claw attacks won't be doing a lot of damage, which is bad.

Scare isn't very good. At low levels, its supernatural use is roughly equal to a totemist with a krenshar mask bound, but past that the HD cap starts to hurt, eventually leading to its utter obsolescence. The nonmagical option is a jumbled mess (my best guess is that it gives a small intimidate bonus), and will not be discussed in detail.

A LA is obviously unnecessary, and even +0 seems hard to justify (name one thing a totemist can't do better). Still, I'll keep it at +0: there's still some uses for this creature.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The magical beast type might be good for some alter self shenanigans on a gishy build: krenshar 2/sorcerer 4 and then as sorcadin. Is this the cheapest way to get the type?

Edit: It isn't. Darkmantles and stirges have 1 RHD.

[Inevitability]

The magical beast type might be good for some alter self shenanigans on a gishy build: krenshar 2/sorcerer 4 and then as sorcadin. Is this the cheapest way to get the type?

Edit: It isn't. Darkmantles and stirges have 1 RHD.

Darkmantles have +1 LA in addition to their RHD. I guess they're still a better choice for a sorcerer, though.

[Agahnim]

I have to admit that the Krenshar is not very powerful, as reflected in its CR (1). It does have some nice, usable stuff though : scent, track as a bonus feat, enough natural attacks to take multiattack, and as a bonus it can serve as a mount for a small PC!
I know, I know, "it doesn't matter at high levels"... But then again, what does?
+0 is fine by me!

[Celestia]

I have to admit that the Krenshar is not very powerful, as reflected in its CR (1). It does have some nice, usable stuff though : scent, track as a bonus feat, enough natural attacks to take multiattack, and as a bonus it can serve as a mount for a small PC!
I know, I know, "it doesn't matter at high levels"... But then again, what does?
+0 is fine by me!
A player riding on another player seems weird to me. I guess it does save money, though. :smalltongue:

[Zancloufer]

+4 Dex, -4 Int, +2 Wis/Cha, track as a bonus feat, Darkvision, SCENT +4 to Hide/Move silently, a togglable +3 to bluff and +10ft movement. Oddly enough sounds like it might make a decent Ranger type. Maybe convince your DM to take (Improved) Multi-attack instead of TWF for combat style.

Also magical Beast RHD are solid: d10 HD, Good Fort/Ref and 2 skill points/level. Sounds almost better than 2 levels of fighter. Definitely +0 LA, it's not weak enough for a -0 and while it has a solid plus overall -4 int and lack of hands hurts.

[zergling.exe]

+4 Dex, -4 Int, +2 Wis/Cha, track as a bonus feat, Darkvision, SCENT +4 to Hide/Move silently, a togglable +3 to bluff and +10ft movement. Oddly enough sounds like it might make a decent Ranger type. Maybe convince your DM to take (Improved) Multi-attack instead of TWF for combat style.

Also magical Beast RHD are solid: d10 HD, Good Fort/Ref and 2 skill points/level. Sounds almost better than 2 levels of fighter. Definitely +0 LA, it's not weak enough for a -0 and while it has a solid plus overall -4 int and lack of hands hurts.

(Improved) Rapidstrike would probably be more useful. Gives you ~7 attacks total and getting them as bonus feats would help with the massive BAB requirement on them. Improved Multiattack is really easy to pickup anyway.

[bekeleven]

A player riding on another player seems weird to me. I guess it does save money, though. :smalltongue:

I dunno, I do this every time I play a shapeshifter at low to midlevels. Saves the party some time carting around the tin can, and looks snazzy with your party face.

[Flickerdart]

A player riding on another player seems weird to me. I guess it does save money, though. :smalltongue:

It's way less weird than the actual mount rules.

[danielxcutter]

Hrm... you know, I think part of the reason that monsters suck as PCs is that they were designed to be encountered at their CR, so there was no need to consider how good they'd be 5 levels later or something like that.

[Inevitability]

Kuo-Toa

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/aa/Kuo-Toa.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070210033734

Fishmen! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tTHn2tHhcI)

Kuo-toa, another of these elusive non-SRD monsters. They're 2 HD monstrous humanoids, which is pretty good. Their strength, constitution, intelligence, and wisdom are all above average, their charisma a bit below. They also get Alertness as a bonus feat.

Kuo-toa have a variety of special attacks, most of them incomprehensible. Lightning Bolt is both poorly-written and horrible, Pincer Staff either simply describes an exotic weapon or grants certain characters a permanent weapon that gets replaced if it leaves their possession, and Adhesive is only usable for characters with subpar fighting styles and some money to spend.

Slippery is a bit better: webs are common low-level obstacles or attacks, and Keen Sight is perhaps one of the only ways to nonmagically spot ethereal stuff. Light Blindness is annoying, though.

What class should a kuo-toa take, I wonder? The developers seem to really want them to become clerics, but with two RHD that's less than optimal. As melee characters they are reasonable, but additional LA don't seem necessary to balance them out. +0 LA.

[Celestia]

I think +0 is fine. Having to worship a deity named Blibdoolpoolp is punishment enough.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The krenshar is weird.


They are more dextrous, wise and charismatic than humans...
It's a creature best known for taking the skin off its face.


Scare isn't very good. At low levels, its supernatural use is roughly equal to a totemist with a krenshar mask bound, but past that the HD cap starts to hurt, eventually leading to its utter obsolescence...
Fake krenshars are more effective than real krenshars.



Hrm... you know, I think part of the reason that monsters suck as PCs is that they were designed to be encountered at their CR, so there was no need to consider how good they'd be 5 levels later or something like that.
That part makes sense. What doesn't make sense is how WotC dealt with it.

[Celestia]

It's a creature best known for taking the skin off its face.
Yet another unrealistic standard of beauty.

[No brains]

It's a creature best known for taking the skin off its face.



Yet another unrealistic standard of beauty.

Exfoliation really isn't so bad. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Lamia

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG164b.jpg

Fun fact: lamias aren't actually proficient with daggers. I guess that explains why this one is wielding them two-handed.

Lamias have nine magical beast RHD, which give them reachless Large size. They have +8 strength and +2 to +4 to all other stats.

In addition to any weapons they pick up, lamias can attack with weak claws and a wisdom-reducing touch. The latter is notable for being drain, not damage, but it doesn't get iteratives and will require multiple applications to reduce even weak-willed targets to unconsciousness.

Finally, the SLAs. They're all illusions or enchantments, none of them out of reach for a caster of this level. Disguise Self is a joke: how many quadrupeds with humanoid upper bodies are there for a lamia to appear as? I can think of centaurs, wemics and maybe dracotaurs.

To be honest, I feel like lamias deserves a -0 LA. Its CR is a whopping three points lower than its ECL, its damage output is low for a ECL 9 creature, and its SLAs are outclassed. -0 for now, feedback is welcome.

[javcs]

I think that there is a centauroid devil that serves as heavy cavalry in the Blood Wars. Don't remember what it's called or which book it's in ... FC2 maybe?
But that's not particularly useful.


With a forgiving DM, you might be allowed to bend the body type limitation on Disguise Self a little and look like a normal horse or something ... but again, that's not particularly useful.

[Caelestion]

I think that there is a centauroid devil that serves as heavy cavalry in the Blood Wars. Don't remember what it's called or which book it's in ... FC2 maybe?
But that's not particularly useful.

There is. Is it the narzugon? I think that's in Manual of the Planes.

[No brains]

All I can say is that if my elbow were bent like that front leg, I'd have the same look on my face and LA.

Do Lamias have intentionally weird limbs like rakshashas?

[Inevitability]

All I can say is that if my elbow were bent like that front leg, I'd have the same look on my face and LA.

Do Lamias have intentionally weird limbs like rakshashas?

I don't believe they do.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fun fact: lamias aren't actually proficient with daggers. I guess that explains why this one is wielding them two-handed.
WotC Artist: "Wait, D&D lamias are half-lion?"
WotC Writer: "Yeah. They've always been like that."
WotC Artist: "Oh. Sh*t. Well, uh, gimme a minute...there! I drew this lion-taur guy with a sword in my free time a while back. Will this do?"
WotC Writer: "Lamias use daggers...can you shorten the blade a bit?"
WotC Artist: "Wouldn't that look silly?"
WorC Writer: "Not as silly as putting a snake-lady next to a creature with claw attacks."


Disguise Self is a joke: how many quadrupeds with humanoid upper bodies are there for a lamia to appear as? I can think of centaurs, wemics and maybe dracotaurs.
I assume the designers intended, with their usual level of forethought, for lamias to be able to take on the appearance of normal humanoids. Some of their mythological inspirations were seductresses, after all. (Then again, they didn't have lion bodies, so who knows?)




All I can say is that if my elbow were bent like that front leg, I'd have the same look on my face and LA.
It looks like they wanted the leg to be extended, but didn't look up how lions actually run.

[RedWarlock]

Yeesh. The blade is supposed to be in forced perspective, it's likely supposed to be a scimitar, we're just seeing the blade receded into the distance.

On the other hand, the artwork.. I see what they did, and they're a *bad* artist for doing it.. They used a horse as the model for the lion-body's running pose (since most photographers getting *that* angle on a running lion wouldn't be able to *publish* the photo, being eaten..) It's supposed to be the 'knee' of the front leg (horse term, corresponding to the wrist), but they didn't get the proportions right. That little bump in the other foreleg is a direct translation of the knee/wrist of the horse's leg. But lions have very different portions, they're not distance runners like horses or even cheetahs, the wrist is 5/6ths of the way down the leg rather than halfway like a horse. Look at how skimpy the hind legs look, heel to paw, same deal.

[Inevitability]

Yeesh. The blade is supposed to be in forced perspective, it's likely supposed to be a scimitar, we're just seeing the blade receded into the distance.

Except the lamia's statblock says they use daggers, and that blade looks pretty dagger-like to me.

...Now that I look at it again, where's that guy's left hand? The haft doesn't seem big enough to completely conceal it, and from the look of his other hand his fingers should be visible.

[Hish]

I'm pretty sure it's arms fuse at the wrist and it actually only has one hand.
Well, my picture would be far worse, so I can't complain too much.

[RedWarlock]

Except the lamia's statblock says they use daggers, and that blade looks pretty dagger-like to me.

Yeah, unfortunately, I think whoever finalized the statblock made the same mistake you guys are, misinterpreting the forced angle as a too-short blade. That handle totally reads scimitar, whereas if it was a dagger, it would be fairly awkward to use. (I know curved daggers like that exist, but I think it's far more likely to be a misinterpretation of the art.) While they often go statblock->artwork, occasionally they do make revisions for different situations. This was likely statblock->artwork->statblock. Nobody claims WotC was perfect.


...Now that I look at it again, where's that guy's left hand? The haft doesn't seem big enough to completely conceal it, and from the look of his other hand his fingers should be visible.

<singsong>Not if it's in forced perspective...</singsong>

[No brains]

*snap* I've got it! The lamia is using disguise self to distract us with anomalies in its art! It might have an LA of -0, but that didn't stop it from fooling every one of us! Be on your guard! :smallbiggrin:

[khadgar567]

You know i prefer snake lady with la then this excuse of a wizard experiment as lamia

[Tiri]

Now that I look at it again, where's that guy's left hand? The haft doesn't seem big enough to completely conceal it, and from the look of his other hand his fingers should be visible.

I'm pretty sure it's arms fuse at the wrist and it actually only has one hand.

Clearly, it is a very poorly-optimised lamia sorcerer using Fuse Arms.


Well, my picture would be far worse, so I can't complain too much.

Except that you aren't asking to be paid for that quality of picture.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, my picture would be far worse, so I can't complain too much.Except that you aren't asking to be paid for that quality of picture.
And if you are, can you share your networking secrets?

[Inevitability]

Lammasu

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG165.jpg

I could say lammasus don't look silly, but then I'd be lion.

A lammasu has 7 magical beast RHD. They're large, with stat boosts all around (ranging from +2 to +12) and a natural flight speed. Unlike their animal lookalikes, lammasu do not have a bite attack. They do have Pounce and rake, though.

They also have various supernatural abilities. A permanent Magic Circle Against Evil is obviously positive (I like not being mind controlled), and the same goes for the limited-yet-useful Greater Invisibility and Dimension Door SLAs.

In spite of all this, the lammasus most important feature will always be its cleric casting. It starts at 7th-level, meaning a lammasu will easily be able to attain 9th-level spells. The available domains are kind of sucky, but one can't have anything.

Personally, I think lammasus deserve +2 LA. With their HD and casting they make a great base creature for a melee-focused cleric. Things every melee character needs (flight and pounce) they get for free, not to mention their impressive stat boosts. All that warrants being behind a spell level in my opinion.


...And speaking of spell levels, next up are liches! Stay tuned!

[Metahuman1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Leonals somehow get missed? Or am I just missing them in the guide with 53 pages?

[Tiri]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Leonals somehow get missed? Or am I just missing them in the guide with 53 pages?

They fall under Guardinal, Leonal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21697849&postcount=1177).

[danielxcutter]

Oooh, can't wait...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lammasu at +2 seems reasonable. Difficult to buy off sadly but you are almost strictly better than cleric at the same HD (the almost is pathetically easy to fix in one level as well). If you do not buy it off though you still get 9th's at 19th, so if you think of this as a PrC that hiccups casting twice it is nice.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Funny how the critters with positive LA's are usually the ones that step on the toes of casters. I'm not sure if that's because it's hard to make a melee-based monster that competes with PCs of equal HD or because casters are just that good.

[Inevitability]

Funny how the critters with positive LA's are usually the ones that step on the toes of casters. I'm not sure if that's because it's hard to make a melee-based monster that competes with PCs of equal HD or because casters are just that good.

There's plenty of non-caster monsters with a positive LA as well, it's just that those who do have casting almost always get one (with the obvious exception of dragons).

[Caelestion]

I could say lammasus don't look silly, but then I'd be lion.

Dad jokes ahoy! :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

[Segev]

Anything that gets full or near-full casting progression for its HD is likely to wind up with an LA unless it is strictly equal to or less than an existing "PC race." Casting is the go-to for power in this game, and a lot of the reason some pretty awesome monsters wind up with lowered LA is because playing a caster with them is next to impossible. Put another way, it makes little sense to put an LA on a monster which, if you were to play a Sorcerer with its HD in levels, you could do everything it can.

[javcs]

There's plenty of non-caster monsters with a positive LA as well, it's just that those who do have casting almost always get one (with the obvious exception of dragons).

True, but a non-caster monster's generally got to be really truly quite good overall to warrant a positive LA, or have something specific that they get that's really good, which basically turns them into specialists in something already.

On the other hand, since most of the caster classes have relatively little in the way of class features, it's not really that hard for a monster with near-HD casting to be better than a caster of that type with levels equal to HD.

[Inevitability]

Lich

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG167.jpg

Fun fact: Libris Mortis has a 100% canon adept lich. They even refer to her as 'the weakest lich in existence'. I'm still waiting for a magewright lich, though.

Liches, as I'm sure people know, are rejuvenating spellcasting undead. Becoming one grants small bonuses to all mental stats and a reasonable natural armor bonus. The fear aura all liches have is less interesting, as very little at ECL 11+ will have less than 5 HD.

A lich's touch attack is worth mentioning as well. It deals a small amount of negative energy damage, but also forces a save vs. permanent paralysis. Sadly, there aren't really any first-party ways to use it at range, and for most liches (ignoring the occasional duskblade) melee isn't a good place to be.

Furthermore, liches gain a number of passive bonuses. DR 15/bludgeoning and magic is reasonably nice, cold and electricity immunity are sure to come in handy a few times, and skill bonuses will probably see some use as well. The specific immunity to mind-affecting attacks is weird, though.

Finally, there's the rejuvenation ability. It's a bit unclear how exactly it works, but basically it returns the lich to unlife 1d10 days after its destruction. I don't think this affects the LA: usually a level 11+ party will have ways to return people from death faster, even if they are undead.

I'm considering both +2 and +3 LA here, and think I'll go with +2. Lichdom does grant a number of interesting abilities, but will probably result in a net loss in casting ability (which most people at CL 11 or more are attached to).

Note that becoming a lich is very pricy. Without a way to get that cost down somehow, it may be more like +0, or even -0. Remember, kids, gold is good!

[danielxcutter]

+3 means Sorcerers can't get 9ths, except for the occasional Kobold. Oh, and I believe that Savage Species has an option to trade their fear aura for a non-evil alignment.

Hmm... are there ways to abuse this template that you can't duplicate with Necropolitan?

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are a number of lich variants, some of which may be LA +3, but they're not in the Monster Manual. The vanilla lich is fine at +2. One spell level behind for mental stat boosts, DR, immunities - technically, not that good for a focused optimized caster, but nice for a number of other builds, and can be bought off.

[Celestia]

I'd say -0, actually, but maybe I'm weird. The benefits of the template are almost entirely defensive, and if not dying was a valuable skill, then the monk would be amazing.

But, sure, a lich is purely and objectively better than an equal level living spellcaster. Except for one thing: wealth. That phylactery costs 120,000 gp, which, you may note, is more than a PC even has at level 11, according to WBL. And by the time they finally can afford it, it will literally cost everything they have. So, the real question here is whether or not the benefits of the lich template are equivalent to 120,000 gp in wealth. And that is a resounding NO. Magic items can duplicate almost all the things from this template and then some. A regular spellcaster with money is far stronger than a lich of equal or even higher level.

[Segev]

To be fair, the lich actually is expected to MAKE his phylactery. Doesn't that drop his personal cost to 60k gp for it? Still a lot, of course.

I also wonder, if a lich hid his phylactery in a fast-time demiplane (say one where 1 day there is 1 hour in most of the multiverse), would he come back in 1d10 hours?

Finally, how many times would the lich have to die before his phylactery "paid for itself?" Once, I'd say, if he's alone, but we're talking about in a party. But let's look at raise dead and resurrection. Both bring you back with a level lost. Raise dead brings you back weak and near-helpless, requiring recovery time, which is more analogous to the 1d10 days for the lich.

Raise dead costs 5000 gp. Resurrection costs 10000 gp. If we assume the lich made his own phylactery, that's 6-12 times he'd have to die before it paid for itself.

[Celestia]

To be fair, the lich actually is expected to MAKE his phylactery. Doesn't that drop his personal cost to 60k gp for it? Still a lot, of course.
...No. 120,000 gp is explicitly the cost to make it.

[Segev]

...No. 120,000 gp is explicitly the cost to make it.

Ah, my mistake. Yeah, that's expensive. Maybe part of the "unspeakably evil" act requires lying, cheating, and stealing to get wealth beyond your WBL guidelines? That's definitely touching on being inimical to the laws of D&D---er, nature. :smalltongue:

Also, means they need to die 12-24 times to have it pay for itself compared to raise dead or resurrection.


Edit: I know! The lich can use Wall of Salt to create 40,000 gp worth of a single salt block. Then use Craft(sculpture) or (jeweler) or something like that to carve it into a 120,000 gp ornamental item. That surely won't cause the DM to throw books at him!

[Flickerdart]

I could see +2 if the steep GP cost was waived, but with it the lich is -0 for sure. Coming back in 1d10 days is terrible when you consider that high-level magic can not only get you back on your feet with one spell, but can do so as quickly as one round (revivify, for example). Your gaming group can get in 1d10 days of adventure while you fart around the netherworld waiting for your butt to grow back.

[Inevitability]

Well, if a bunch of resurrection spells are better than rejuvenation, why not just sell your phylactery? It's still a magic item of great value, after all.*

Seriously, though, I'll add a note warning about the sheer WBL drop.

*Inevitability is aware that the sole way to use another creature's phylactery is a ritual that involves killing the phylactery's owner. Inevitability is not responsible for any deaths and subsequent reanimations as mindless monsters caused by following this suggestion. You have been warned.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Uh, good call on the phylactery cost, I did not think of that. LA -0 if that is enforced, agreed.

[No brains]

I remember reading that there was some contention as to whether, by RAW, the phylactery actually does anything for the lich. I think it involved where the rejuvenation ability was written, making it a power of the template and not the item. Theoretically the lich might not even need the phylactery to transform and may not even need it ever again after that.

I think this subject was its own thread on gitp and discussing it in this thread may cause derailment, but it's something to consider.

[Inevitability]

I remember reading that there was some contention as to whether, by RAW, the phylactery actually does anything for the lich. I think it involved where the rejuvenation ability was written, making it a power of the template and not the item. Theoretically the lich might not even need the phylactery to transform and may not even need it ever again after that.

I think this subject was its own thread on gitp and discussing it in this thread may cause derailment, but it's something to consider.

Seems pretty clear to me.


An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

To become a lich, you must create a phylactery. Unless the phylactery is destroyed, the lich keeps popping back up.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd say -0, actually, but maybe I'm weird. The benefits of the template are almost entirely defensive, and if not dying was a valuable skill, then the monk would be amazing.
But, sure, a lich is purely and objectively better than an equal level living spellcaster. Except for one thing: wealth. That phylactery costs 120,000 gp, which, you may note, is more than a PC even has at level 11, according to WBL. And by the time they finally can afford it, it will literally cost everything they have. So, the real question here is whether or not the benefits of the lich template are equivalent to 120,000 gp in wealth. And that is a resounding NO. Magic items can duplicate almost all the things from this template and then some. A regular spellcaster with money is far stronger than a lich of equal or even higher level.
If we're comparing the benefits of being a lich to the benefits of comparable gear...120k gold is the same as an amulet of the planes or a robe of eyes. One of those gives free but tricky plane shift, the other gives some useful vision-ey abilities. Alternatively, ~120k could get you a ring of wizardry IV, a djinn ring, a greater metamagic rod of maximization, or a holy avenger. Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template. But maybe I'm just not seeing the best way to use them.
Especially if you can make use of a holy avenger with an undead mage.

[Flickerdart]

Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template.
None of those items require you to become undead, nor do they cost points of level adjustment, in addition to their GP cost.

[javcs]

If we're comparing the benefits of being a lich to the benefits of comparable gear...120k gold is the same as an amulet of the planes or a robe of eyes. One of those gives free but tricky plane shift, the other gives some useful vision-ey abilities. Alternatively, ~120k could get you a ring of wizardry IV, a djinn ring, a greater metamagic rod of maximization, or a holy avenger. Those are all very useful items, but I'm not sure they're as useful as the lich template. But maybe I'm just not seeing the best way to use them.
Especially if you can make use of a holy avenger with an undead mage.

It's more accurately compared to 240k gold - as in order to be a Lich, you need to be able to craft magic items.

I admit, I'm not entirely sure how much getting the useful stuff out of Lich would cost.

[Segev]

In play, a Robe of Eyes is probably going to be overall more useful than Lichdom. That continual true seeing and all-round vision is amazing.

[Agahnim]

A +5 amulet of natural armor costs 50 000 gp, and a slotless one would cost double that iirc. This leaves 20 000 gp to account for the undead AND additional immunities, rejuvenation, paralysing touch, fear aura, excellent skill bonuses, and mental state increases. The lich's abilities are OBVIOUSLY worth more than the price of a phylactery, at least in terms of money.
Sure it's expensive to blow 120k at once, but who said you had to do it at level 11 ?
Being a lich is worth +0 LA at the very least.

[khadgar567]

you know instead of turning lich you can let someone provide you lot of permanent solars as companion and its more usefull then turning into side role in triller movie

[Caelestion]

you know instead of turning lich you can let someone provide you lot of permanent solars as companion...

A "lot" of permanent solars? That sounds like the same sort of cheese which only flies on a forum and never in an actual game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A +5 amulet of natural armor costs 50 000 gp, and a slotless one would cost double that iirc. This leaves 20 000 gp to account for the undead AND additional immunities, rejuvenation, paralysing touch, fear aura, excellent skill bonuses, and mental state increases. The lich's abilities are OBVIOUSLY worth more than the price of a phylactery, at least in terms of money.
Sure it's expensive to blow 120k at once, but who said you had to do it at level 11 ?
Being a lich is worth +0 LA at the very least.
You're picking out one (supposedly equivalent) magic item, and comparing that to the cost of the phylactery. However, it's not an accurate comparison at all, because a slotless amulet of natural armour +5 is an extremely inefficient way of spending your WBL, at any level, let alone when it means you can get no other items at all. By your comparison, Vow of Poverty would be a good deal (up to level 12-13) if all it did was provide +5 natural armour.

A lich effectively without WBL has no ability to buy scrolls, metamagic rods, expensive material components, and so on. They have no headband of intellect and no belt of battle; they have no cloak of resistance and no +1 proof against transmutation mithril breastplate/buckler. In other words, you're a lot weaker.

I won't contest that if you had to craft all lich abilities separately, it'd require more than 120 000 gp in materials. However, you would solve that by simply not buying lot of those abilities (paralysis, fear, two out of three mental stats, undead type). Instead, you would rely on a Persistent veil of undeath and some skill boosters.

[Agahnim]

Again, you don't have to craft your phylactery at level 11. As you gain more levels beyond 11, your WBL allows you to buy all those "essential" items on top of the phylactery, which becomes a far better deal.
As for the usefulness of the lich's various abilities, it is obviously subjective, although I suspect that the GitP community (no offense) is too used to optimization to see use in suboptimal bonuses and abilities. If I was an arcane spellcaster, I'd be glad to have a super nasty paralysing touch to get rid of any beatstick coming my way (inb4 "don't let them reach you in the first place"). The diversity of mental stat boosts ensures that your main casting stat is increased, regardless of how you got to CL 11. The only thing that isn't very useful is the fear aura, but it is good for flavor and can apparently be traded away for the ability to be a non-evil lich.
Forgot to mention : to become a lich you must get Craft wondrous, which is going to make up for the 120K pretty fast - even faster for a PC lich, who can craft for her party.
TL;DR : just because every toy the lich gets isn't tailored for one particular specialty doesn't mean they aren't an excellent package, provided you keep a bit of gold to buy basic items beside your phylactery

[Inevitability]

As for the usefulness of the lich's various abilities, it is obviously subjective, although I suspect that the GitP community (no offense) is too used to optimization to see use in suboptimal bonuses and abilities. If I was an arcane spellcaster, I'd be glad to have a super nasty paralysing touch to get rid of any beatstick coming my way (inb4 "don't let them reach you in the first place").

We're talking 'level 11 or above arcane caster' here. You can't just assume a cleric (or even a wizard) will be helpless the moment someone gets within 5 ft. of them. That's not 'GitP being used to optimization', it's basic logic. Even a caster who only picked blasting can just step back, maybe eat an AoO, then Cone of Cold their foe.


The only thing that isn't very useful is the fear aura, but it is good for flavor and can apparently be traded away for the ability to be a non-evil lich.

Call me a dirty munchkin, but I've never felt like an creature's flavor should affect its LA.


Forgot to mention : to become a lich you must get Craft wondrous, which is going to make up for the 120K pretty fast - even faster for a PC lich, who can craft for her party.

You did not just present a subpar prerequisite as an advantage.

At best, Craft Wondrous Item is something you'd have picked up anyway (not true for most casters). It is not, and will never be, a reason to become a lich, because becoming a lich is not required for using it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

None of those items require you to become undead, nor do they cost points of level adjustment, in addition to their GP cost.
Being undead isn't all bad. And more importantly, the level adjustment is the balancing cost. Lichdom costs some gold and also some LA for more benefits than you would get from just that amount of gold.


A level 11 lich has to spend their entire WBL for their phylactery.
Um...you have to be at least 11th level to become a lich, not exactly 11th level. There's a bit of a difference.

[Agahnim]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?

[khadgar567]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?
I think forum has no problem with feat called craft munchkin gear the problem is we cant peg LA for template and agree with it.

[Inevitability]

I'm genuinely curious. What's wrong with Craft wondrous item? I used to have it on my 10th level wizard and I found it was pretty awesome. Crafted myself a magic spellbook worth more than 10,000 gp and some awesome items for the party. Is it the XP cost ? I found it to be minor. The only real downside IMHO is the time required. I guess that if you find that the campaign never allows any downtime during the first 8 levels, you just don't take the feat?

It's not bad, but it's definitely not the mandatory pick for each wizard everywhere you're implying it is.

[RedWarlock]

I don't think the WBL should affect the adjustment here. Considering how much shenanigans one can exert, the fact that you can do this well above that level, to the fact that many DMs may just roll Lich on into acceptable backstory and just waive the 'fee' as it were.

You have to compare the raw capabilities of a level X caster, vs a level X Lich caster, regardless of that X being an 11, a 15, or a 19. WBL will catch itself back up. Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?

[Remuko]

Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?

Well I do remember Inevitibility mentioning mouthpicks a lot for monsters and maybe non-humanoid armor at least once, so yeah it seems like it is also being factored in.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well I do remember Inevitibility mentioning mouthpicks a lot for monsters and maybe non-humanoid armor at least once, so yeah it seems like it is also being factored in.
Mouthpicks were mentioned as a way to expand their offensive abilities beyond what would be obvious, not as a monster tax. I don't remember non-humanoid armor ever being mentioned.

[Celestia]

I don't think the WBL should affect the adjustment here. Considering how much shenanigans one can exert, the fact that you can do this well above that level, to the fact that many DMs may just roll Lich on into acceptable backstory and just waive the 'fee' as it were.

You have to compare the raw capabilities of a level X caster, vs a level X Lich caster, regardless of that X being an 11, a 15, or a 19. WBL will catch itself back up. Do we discount other LAs because mouthpicks and nonhumanoid armor are expensive? Or just deal with it as cost of doing business?
If the DM waives the gp cost, then that is clearly a house rule, and this thread has never accounted for that. By RAW, you must spend 120,000 gp to become a lich.

[TotallyNotEvil]

OTOH, I can't see a DM not letting you just Quest for your phylactery.

[No brains]

Would the LA be any different for a level 20 Dread Necromancer? I think they get the phylactery for free, but they've given up (very versatile) 9th level spells and many class features become redundant. I feel like in that case the template might be -0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Would the LA be any different for a level 20 Dread Necromancer? I think they get the phylactery for free, but they've given up (very versatile) 9th level spells and many class features become redundant. I feel like in that case the template might be -0.
I'm not sure the question makes any sense. How do you assign LA to a class feature? I mean, from a DN 19's perspective, DN 20 is a good level (doubling up on immunities protects against grave strike, for example), and why would you evaluate DN 20 from any other position? It certainly doesn't make sense to call DN 20 "LA -0" because it's suboptimal for a wizard 10 to start theurging.

If you're asking whether a DN should get LA for becoming a lich, my opinion is no, they shouldn't.

[Inevitability]

Lillend

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG168.jpg

Lillends are art-loving celestial snake-people that, like so many other monsters, are mentioned only in passing in other books. That's a pity, because they are actually pretty interesting.

The chassis is pretty good. 7 outsider HD, between +4 and +10 to every stat, a reasonable fly speed, reach, some natural armor, and a single natural attack (though a very uncommon one).

Constrict and Improved Grab imply a lillend would make a good grappler. The second ability's wording is weird, though, as removing one's ability to take move (and therefore full-round) actions is generally bad.

Bard casting is bard casting. It's initially at CL 6, but getting 6th-level spells shouldn't be an issue. Note that lillends have the skills to enter quite a few bard-specific PrCs. They're only a single bard level away from entering Sublime Chord: less if you can somehow manage to get 3rd-level slots.

The SLAs are mostly low-level utility, half of which the lillend already has by virtue of its bard casting. Note that a lillend also has everything from Inspire Courage to Suggestion in terms of bardic music, allowing it to qualify for several classes and feats without dipping bard.

I think +2 LA is fine here. Lillends will still get 6th-level spells with it (or 9ths if they got SC), while somewhat curbing the advantage of a better chassis and combat ability compared to other bards. Feel free to give your opinion!

[khadgar567]

I forgot we have liliends thoug +2 looks like good but again like succubus i rather give them +0 so they feel more play able

[Agahnim]

+2 is very reasonable for those stat increases and sweet, sweet outsider HD. You can go SC, but also play a martial character thanks to the stats and full BAB. And you get even more skill points than an actual bard!
Also you look awesome IMO :)

[Caelestion]

The chassis is pretty good: the lillend is chaotic good. :smalltongue:

[TotallyNotEvil]

I feel that's a very upper end +2, but not quite +3. +10 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha.

That's a lot. Then flight, Ousider HD, sixth level bard casting, Large size...

Ok, maybe +3 is called for. It's still within the realm of buy-off.

How would a vanilla level 10 bard compare to a Liliend?

[Troacctid]

Maybe a better comparison is a Gloura, an existing +2 LA monster with Bard casting.

[Celestia]

Ok, maybe +3 is called for. It's still within the realm of buy-off.
No it isn't. RHD don't count. You'd buy off the first one at level 16, ECL 19. Then you're done until epic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

OTOH, I can't see a DM not letting you just Quest for your phylactery.
If a DM decides to bend the rules for lichery, I don't see why they'd want rules for its LA. That's why these assignments are so focused on the rules; level adjustment is just a rule, based on how the monster's rules affect other rules, letting still other rules be appropriately adjusted in response.

[Inevitability]

Lizardfolk

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG169.jpg

Apologies for the recent post-sparsity.

Lizardfolk are another of those low-HD humanoid races, with 2 humanoid hit dice (ugh). They enjoy bonuses to strength and constitution, which are partially compensated by an intelligence penalty. Lizardfolk also have a remarkably large natural armor bonus, exceeding the one possessed by monitor lizards and crocodiles.

Furthermore, lizardfolk have proficiency with simple weapons and shields, get a racial bonus on three uninteresting skills (which are also their only class skills), and have three natural weapons. Kobolds are still better at precision damage-stacking, and darfellan at adding bites to your two-handed attacks.

Lizardfolk support is nonexistent. The closest thing is Dauntless, but that can be selected by several other races as well and is arguably worse than the feat it's supposed to replace.

Considering the lack of exclusive abilities and inferiority to most default options, I think a LA of -0 is justifiable here.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I played a lizardfolk with no RHD or LA as a test and it still felt underwhelming. -0 is totally deserved.

[bekeleven]

They (along with many other races) arguably qualify for Hexer!

[Inevitability]

Locathah

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG170.jpg

More never-used 2 HD humanoids, now with horrifying features!

The Locathahs' racial traits are small bonuses to a few of the less-used abilities, a moderately high swim speed, +3 natural armor, the aquatic subtype, and... well would you look at that, no more racial traits.

I'm serious: that's it. The two levels every locathah sacrifices are supposed to be compensated by weak stat boosts and an inability to function on dry land. In no way is this worth it at +0 LA, let alone the +1 it currently has.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Apologies for the recent post-sparsity.
C'est la vie.


Lizardfolk are another of those low-HD humanoid races, with 2 humanoid hit dice (ugh).
You think high-HD humanoids would be better?


More never-used 2 HD humanoids, now with horrifying features!
Hey, I used locaths! As a DM. Once or twice. I think.
...Okay, yeah, I see your point.



They (along with many other races) arguably qualify for Hexer!
This (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355565-the-Hexer-AWESOME!-oh-no-I-take-that-back) Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.

[MesiDoomstalker]

C'est la vie.


You think high-HD humanoids would be better?


Hey, I used locaths! As a DM. Once or twice. I think.
...Okay, yeah, I see your point.



This (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355565-the-Hexer-AWESOME!-oh-no-I-take-that-back) Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.

I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.

[Inevitability]

I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.

Nope! Even the storm-themed domains have other lightning spells instead.

[danielxcutter]

...I've heard about Hexer a lot, but just what is it?

[thoroughlyS]

This (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355565-the-Hexer-AWESOME!-oh-no-I-take-that-back) Hexer? The Hexer which requires you to (among other things) cast divine lightning bolt and have some odd skills if you want to join? Considering that that requires either being an Adept, a rather subpar class, or cutting through some significant cheese. I can't figure out what book Hexers are in, but it would take a frig of a lot for them to be anywhere near viable. This is in general, not just lizardfolk-specific; lizardfolk have it worse, since casting roles aren't suited to their racial strengths.
I'm sure there are a few Cleric Domain's that have Lightning Bolt.
Nope! Even the storm-themed domains have other lightning spells instead.
To be fair, a lizardfolk shugenja (Complete Divine p.10) can get into hexer at the same level as an adept (namely 10th), and can finish with 9th level spells. They do need to take a feat to pick up Survival as a class skill, but that is hardly "significant cheese".

Same story with the locathah.

[ZamielVanWeber]

...I've heard about Hexer a lot, but just what is it?

Hexer is a decently strong PrC with painful entry requirements, including Knowledge (Arcana) 10, "Survival" (technically Wilderness Lore) 10, lightning bolt as a divine spell, and race "Monstrous humanoid, giant, goblinoid, or other primitive humanoid, such as orc or gnoll" making it very difficult to get into although the hexes are cool and it simply plucks a spell off the sorcerer/wizard list 5 times to improve your base classes list. It was specifically designed to be entered by adepts although there are other ways in.

[danielxcutter]

Hexer is a decently strong PrC with painful entry requirements, including Knowledge (Arcana) 10, "Survival" (technically Wilderness Lore) 10, lightning bolt as a divine spell, and race "Monstrous humanoid, giant, goblinoid, or other primitive humanoid, such as orc or gnoll" making it very difficult to get into although the hexes are cool and it simply plucks a spell off the sorcerer/wizard list 5 times to improve your base classes list. It was specifically designed to be entered by adepts although there are other ways in.

Erm... so how strong is an Adept/Hexer?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Erm... so how strong is an Adept/Hexer?

Dramatically stronger than an adept, but otherwise still blech. Adept can only do so much. The hexes have a 30 foot range but the first two are insanely difficult to remove: only by limited wish, wish, miracle, break enchantment, or remove curse. Losing your Dex to AC for that long can be painful. Most of the power comes from combining a divine list with choice tidbits from the sorcerer/wizard list. I guess a warmage with Southern Magician can get some solid mileage out of that? The biggest use I see if for shugenja which draws heavily off of the arcane list, but if you stagger hexer levels you can grab a ninth and add it to your class list (and then pick it upon level up).

Edit: I would be remiss to point that, while most of the hexes are "mind-influencing" and thus immunity is easily acquired, the sicken hex is just necromantic and the save DC's scale insanely if you are Wisdom SAD (10+Hexer level+Wis Mod). Hitting a DC 30+ is easy and at least can frustrate melees who come into range.

[Flickerdart]

Edit: I would be remiss to point that, while most of the hexes are "mind-influencing" and thus immunity is easily acquired, the sicken hex is just necromantic and the save DC's scale insanely if you are Wisdom SAD (10+Hexer level+Wis Mod). Hitting a DC 30+ is easy and at least can frustrate melees who come into range.

Sicken is not very good at all. Do you mean nauseate?

[Inevitability]

Sicken is not very good at all. Do you mean nauseate?

It's called the sicken hex, but its actual effects are far better than Sickened.


Sicken Hex (Sp): At 3rd level, the hexer can use his gaze attack to inflict a debilitating illness. This ability functions like the hex ability (above), except that the target must make a Fortitude save instead of a Will save to resist, and the effect is as described below. A sicken hex requires one daily use of the character's hex ability.
A target who fails the save is overcome with pain and fever, which causes him or her to move at one-half normal speed, lose any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and suffer a —2 circumstance penalty on attack rolls. These effects are permanent until removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell. A sicken hex is a necromancy effect that cannot be dispelled.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... about what power level are Adept/Hexers? What about the... what was the name of that class again? Shu something? What if you enter with that?

[Troacctid]

Well the easiest way to get into Hexer is with the Arcane Disciple from Dragon Magazine. That'll just add lightning bolt to your Cleric list and there you go.

[danielxcutter]

Well the easiest way to get into Hexer is with the Arcane Disciple from Dragon Magazine. That'll just add lightning bolt to your Cleric list and there you go.

Erm... what does that feat do?

[Troacctid]

Erm... what does that feat do?
It's not a feat, it's a variant Cleric from Dragon #311 that loses domains and turning in exchange for Wizard bonus feats and adding Sor/Wiz spells to their class list, among other things.

Of course the Locathah's ability to be a Hexer is not very impressive when Kuo-Toa is the same ECL and, like, obviously better, right?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Or you could be a goblin or something. No RHD needed.

[Inevitability]

Or you could be a goblin or something. No RHD needed.

Or an orc, or a kobold, or a tibbit...

[danielxcutter]

Or an orc, or a kobold, or a tibbit...

Kobold might be the most optimal *cough*Dragonwrought*cough*.

But seriously, even vanilla Kobold has plenty of uses.

[Inevitability]

Lycanthrope

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG173.jpg

Another template, another iconic monster. Right now, lycanthropy are kind of suboptimal, as every one of them will be eating +2 or +3 LA in addition to the (bad) animal HD they'll get.

Lycanthropes gain a number of animal-independent bonuses, such as +2 wisdom, scent, low-light vision, some natural armor, Iron Will for free, and DR/silver. This on its own seems to be a strong +1 LA or weak +2.

The animal form adds to this Lycanthropic Empathy, the animal's special attacks and qualities, the animal's feats, and possible physical ability score adjustments/size changes in hybrid or animal form. This is counterbalanced by the lycanthrope getting all of the animal's HD as well.

Note that for melee combat, almost all PCs will be getting RHD. The only medium-or-bigger animal I could find without multiple hit dice was the baboon: something that doesn't seem too powerful.

Honestly, I think +1 LA is fine for natural lycanthropes. They'll all have at least two HD of non-great types: they don't need a giant LA worsening their situation.

Afflicted lycans, while possibly able to get away with less HD, also suffer a number of drawbacks naturals don't have. +1 LA works there as well.

[Socksy]

Hmm... about what power level are Adept/Hexers? What about the... what was the name of that class again? Shu something? What if you enter with that?

Shugenja (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/shugenja/)? vjsdlfkjs

[danielxcutter]

Shugenja (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/shugenja/)? vjsdlfkjs

Yes that one. Thanks.

[Inevitability]

Shugenja? vjsdlfkjs

You know we're not allowed to post links to the Forbidden Site or its mirrors?

[Flickerdart]

Note that there is some uncertainty with regards to lycanthropes whose base animals have less than 1 HD (such as wereravens or werecats). I'll be assuming this fractional HD can be replaced with a class level, just as a 1 HD creature could.


A lycanthrope will always end up with at least one animal HD, since you can't replace both the base creature's humanoid/giant HD and the animal's HD.

[GreatWyrmGold]

A lycanthrope will always end up with at least one animal HD, since you can't replace both the base creature's humanoid/giant HD and the animal's HD.
Well...arguably, gnomes and orcs and kobolds and the like don't have racial HD, just a level of warrior. So you can probably get away with that.

[javcs]

A lycanthrope will always end up with at least one animal HD, since you can't replace both the base creature's humanoid/giant HD and the animal's HD.

Sadly, this is true. You're getting a minimum of 1 crappy HD plus LA.



Well...arguably, gnomes and orcs and kobolds and the like don't have racial HD, just a level of warrior. So you can probably get away with that.
Nope, their RHD has already been replaced by the Warrior level.

It's possible that some of them would have a fractional RHD, though, were they to have an amount of RHD assigned to them, which might present an interesting interaction with the fractional animal RHD, but that's purely speculative, as there are no RHD numbers for them.




The DR/Silver is only in Animal/Hybrid form. Which is ... unfortunate ... especially since it looks like Hybrids don't get to use the armor of their humanoid form.



Afflicted only need to test to resist changing for loosing 25% of their HP, and each additional 25% lost. And it is skill points ... but seriously, anyone who gets afflicted should put all the skill points they can from their new animal HD into Control Shape.




Honestly, though, I'm not sure the advantages of a Natural are worth a full +1 LA over the Afflicted. Seriously - Naturals only get three things over the Afflicted - an additional 5 DR/Silver when in Animal or Hybrid form, no need for the Control Shape skill, and the ability to infect others with Lycanthropy.
Afflicted might be worth a +1 ... but Natural isn't really worth a full +2.


Y'know, this might be one time where tying the LA to the RHD (of the base animal) might be reasonable. A higher RHD animal isn't really worth all those HD.

Is a 1 animal HD lycanthrope really worth 2 full levels? Maybe it's only really worth 1.5 levels, but this is one case where we round up in D&D.
Is a 2 animal HD lycanthrope really worth 3 full levels? It might be worth a bit more than 2, depending on the animal in question, but probably not a full 3, but again, this is where we'd round up.
Is a 3 animal HD lycanthrope really worth 4 full levels? Unlikely, IMO, but with right animal for the right build in the right circumstances, maybe 3.
Is a 4 animal HD lycanthrope really worth 5 full levels? I doubt it.
Is a 5 animal HD lycanthrope really worth 6 full levels? I don't think so.

I'd say something like a net adjustment of RHD+LA of 2 or 3, or RHD, whichever is higher. Thus, if RHD is greater than or equal to whatever we think the net adjustment should be, it's an LA of 0, or -0, really.

[Daedroth]

Sadly, this is true. You're getting a minimum of 1 crappy HD plus LA.

Yeah, look at the wererat, based on a 1 RHD Dire Rat

[zergling.exe]

The fact that they are called "lycanthrope" instead of "were-creature" automatically earns them a +20 LA as far as I'm concerned. Werewolves get a pass on this.

Because lycanthrope means wolf-man in latin.

[Troacctid]

Fractions are rounded down, so fractional HD are rounded to zero.

[Inevitability]

Fractions are rounded down, so fractional HD are rounded to zero.

Might be a bit hard to justify. If I'm not reading this wrong, you're saying regular cats have 0 HD, because their fractional HD gets rounded down, right?

[Troacctid]

Might be a bit hard to justify. If I'm not reading this wrong, you're saying regular cats have 0 HD, because their fractional HD gets rounded down, right?
You only round when you're performing a calculation (addition, in this case). And you always round down unless otherwise stated.

[Flickerdart]

You only round when you're performing a calculation (addition, in this case). And you always round down unless otherwise stated.

So even the worst necromancer could control unlimited undead cats?

[Segev]

So even the worst necromancer could control unlimited undead cats?

My legions shall terrorize every other first level wizard and commoner in the world!

[Caelestion]

You only round when you're performing a calculation (addition, in this case). And you always round down unless otherwise stated.

As I recall, you're assumed to round in whichever way penalises you. Thus you round down for enemies saving against your spells and round up for you taking half damage etc.

[Segev]

As I recall, you're assumed to round in whichever way penalises you. Thus you round down for enemies saving against your spells and round up for you taking half damage etc.

In D&D 3e, you round down unless a specific instance of rounding explicitly says otherwise. Whether it's good or bad for you.

[Caelestion]

Hmm. I'm not sure what I'm thinking of instead, then.

[Troacctid]

So even the worst necromancer could control unlimited undead cats?
No, just twice as many undead cats as they could 1 HD skeletons. It's only rounded for the purpose of calculating something, which you're not doing.

[Segev]

No, just twice as many undead cats as they could 1 HD skeletons. It's only rounded for the purpose of calculating something, which you're not doing.
While I appreciate the math you're doing here, I don't follow how calculating the number of HD of skeletons you control is not calculating something.

[Troacctid]

While I appreciate the math you're doing here, I don't follow how calculating the number of HD of skeletons you control is not calculating something.
There is calculation involved, but the HD come in afterwards—the limit is equal to 2 x your caster level. No fractions there to round.

[javcs]

I'm fairly certain that HD is not one of the places where fractions get rounded down. Of course ... it's not entirely clear that they should get rounded up either.


Consider the wording of the template:

"Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multi-classing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice."
"Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form."

"Base Attack/Grapple: Add the base attack bonus for the base animal to the base attack bonus of the base creature."
"Base Save Bonuses: Add the base save bonuses of the base animal to the base save bonuses of the base creature."
"Skills: A lycanthrope gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of its animal form, as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. (Animal is never its first Hit Die, though, and it does not gain quadruple skill points for any animal Hit Die.) Any skill given in the animal's description is a class skill for the lycanthrope's animal levels."
"Feats: Add the base animal's feats to the base creature's. If this results in a lycanthrope having the same feat twice, the lycanthrope gains no additional benefit unless the feat can normally be taken twice, in which case the duplicated feat works as noted in the feat description. This process may give the lycanthrope more feats than a character of its Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, any "extra" feats are denoted as bonus feats."
"Challenge Rating: By class level or base creature, modified according to the HD of base animal. 1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6."
"Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a lycanthrope's character level is increased by the number of racial Hit Dice the base animal has."

"Racial Hit Dice: A lycanthrope adds the Hit Dice of its animal form to its base Hit Dice for race, level, and class. These additional Hit Dice modify the lycanthrope's base attack bonus and base saving throws accordingly."
"Racial Skills: A lycanthrope adds skill points for its animal Hit Dice much as if it had multiclassed into the animal type. It gains skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die of the animal form. Any skills that appear in the animal's description are treated as class skills for the lycanthrope's animal levels. The lycanthrope's maximum skill ranks are equal to its animal form Hit Dice + its racial Hit Dice (if any) + its class levels +3."
"Racial Feats: Add the animal's Hit Dice to the base creature's own Hit Dice to determine how many feats the character has."

Everything suggests you get the full animal HD, however many that is. And all indications are that the minimum animal HD you get is 1. Or would anyone like to argue that using a fractional HD animal should result in a CR increase of +0? Because the CR increase is tethered to the amount of animal HD gained, and a CR increase of +1 is for 1 HD or 2 HD animals.


Also, there's no taking part of a level, you either have one or you don't.


Besides ... a "fractional HD" is treated as being a full HD for everything except calculating HP. Calculating skill points and maximum skill points, feats, base save bonuses, they're all calculated as though it's a full single HD. At least, so far as I can find examples of fractional HD, that is.
All the instances of fractional HD that I've found thus far are size Tiny or smaller. Not all of them have advancement in HD or size.
Fractional HD are basically HP penalties for extremely small and nominally fragile entities (although some with fractional HD have DR, so maybe not fragile ones).

[Troacctid]

I mean you could also interpret it as giving you a fractional hit die. In which case you'd end up with something like 4.5 hit dice. And then you would add your class levels, level adjustment, and racial hit dice together to determine your ECL, and the fraction would be rounded down in that calculation, so you would effectively gain xp and level up as if you didn't have the hit die.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go with the interpretation that a fractional hit die is a full hit die with reduced maximum hp. That is, fractional HD are considered to be a special form of having 1 HD. As such, a human/cat lycanthrope would have 2 RHD: one humanoid, one animal.

[Caelestion]

I could understand a 1st-level werecat having one Animal HD, in addition to their class level, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I could understand a 1st-level werecat having one Animal HD, in addition to their class level, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have that.
Absolutely, I agree. If lycanthropy gets you the animal HD and that humanoid/giant HD you were hoping to trade in, the template probably deserves a lower level adjustment, because you have a minimum of two useless hit dice.

[Flickerdart]

No, just twice as many undead cats as they could 1 HD skeletons. It's only rounded for the purpose of calculating something, which you're not doing.

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control. 1/2 HD + 1/2 HD is... 0 HD, according to your math.

[Caelestion]

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control. 1/2 HD + 1/2 HD is... 0 HD, according to your math.

Not if you only round down at the end of the sum, as with fractional BAB/saves.

[Troacctid]

My cap is 2 * CL. I am calculating how many HD of undead I control.
The HD of the undead are not part of that calculation.

[Amidus Drexel]

There is calculation involved, but the HD come in afterwards—the limit is equal to 2 x your caster level.

This seems like the most reasonable interpretation.

You're capped at 2*CL HD - it doesn't matter if that's all in a single creature, several creatures with whole-number HD, or spread across 8*CL skeletal toads. Nothing in this calculation cares about integers, so leaving it as a fraction is fine. No rounding necessary.

[Flickerdart]

The HD of the undead are not part of that calculation.

The HD of the undead I control isn't part of the calculation for how many HD of undead I control? Did you misread my post and add a "can" where there wasn't a "can"?

[Inevitability]

Turned lycanthrope LA to a flat +1, regardless of whether it's the afflicted or natural version.

Also, debate on whether 0.5+0.5=0 should perhaps be moved to another thread.

[danielxcutter]

Turned lycanthrope LA to a flat +1, regardless of whether it's the afflicted or natural version.

Also, debate on whether 0.5+0.5=0 should perhaps be moved to another thread.

Move it. I have a feeling that it's not going to be short.

[Inevitability]

Magmin

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG179.jpg

Imagine a mayhem-minded toddler, except it's also on fire and spreading the fire to everything it touches, and you got the basic idea of magmins. Dwarf Fortress players may imagine a horde of fire imps instead.

Magmins have two elemental RHD, which are inferior to aristocrat hit dice but do come with a few welcome immunities. Just try not to die: True Resurrections are hard to come by. DR 5/magic and natural armor should hopefully help a bit here.

The little elementals have orc-level strength despite their small size. Their constitution score has a small bonus, their intelligence a penalty. Their natural weapons are a weak slam and a slightly less weak flaming touch, but both are made a bit more interesting by their Combustion ability: the 1d8 damage is apparently taken again each round for three to six rounds.

A magmin's Fiery Aura is more of a drawback than an advantage. It can't be turned off and requires people to stay 20 feet away from you or get burned. Especially in narrow dungeon corridors, this may cause trouble.

Finally, there's Melt Weapons, which apart from being nonsensical (how is something hot enough to melt adamantine but not to scorch wood?) is a very good way to destroy loot. Again, it can't be turned off.

All things considered, I think magmins just aren't that good an option. Various abilities of theirs are harmful to the party as a whole, their offensive traits just aren't that good, and the elemental type's immunities are obtainable in other ways as well. +0, with serious consideration given to -0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The fact that they are called "lycanthrope" instead of "were-creature" automatically earns them a +20 LA as far as I'm concerned. Werewolves get a pass on this.
It's one of those misnomers that got baked into the fabric of our culture. Just gotta deal with it.

[Segev]

It's one of those misnomers that got baked into the fabric of our culture. Just gotta deal with it.

And while "therianthrope" is more appropriate, it sounds more sci-fi than fantasy, so...it's never going to catch on in D&D-esq works.

[No brains]

As far as flaming bozos go, who has the best heat powers? Azers, Magmins, or Salamanders?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Salamanders get an adorable d6/d8 damage and that is it (very favorable stat mods though). Magmin has a pile of options, but they are generally worse than free damage since they can either A: smack your allies or B: destroy loot. If you don't mind loot destruction then they have that going for them. Azer's heat deals a whopping 1 fire damage.

Magmin get the most, salamanders get one with no downside, and azers is just a foot note. Of the three I would pick salamander for a variety of reasons.

[No brains]

Salamanders get an adorable d6/d8 damage and that is it (very favorable stat mods though). Magmin has a pile of options, but they are generally worse than free damage since they can either A: smack your allies or B: destroy loot. If you don't mind loot destruction then they have that going for them. Azer's heat deals a whopping 1 fire damage.

Magmin get the most, salamanders get one with no downside, and azers is just a foot note. Of the three I would pick salamander for a variety of reasons.

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

Just one of the various atRAWcities - sorry, atrocities - that spring from WotC's poor wording.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

We don't have official tempts, but we do know salamanders can be actively surrounded by flame, so eh?

[Inevitability]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

[danielxcutter]

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

Um... maybe it's the way of applying heat and a natural affinity of weaponmaking?

Or maybe I could be shoving a load of cowdung, but I dunno. Maybe we should ask WizarOOOH WAIT A MOMENT

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wait, so salamanders theoretically generate similar temperatures to magmins but DON'T slag out everything they touch?
I guess they control their heat better? Salamanders are orderly and lawful, magmins are destructive and maniacal.

[ZamielVanWeber]

For all it's worth, magmins are probably a bit hotter than salamanders. Their touch deals 1d8 fire damage, a salamander's only 1d6. In addition, magmins are hot enough to radiate harmful levels of heat whereas salamanders aren't.

Then again, a thoqqua's touch deals 2d6, and they can't melt weapons instantaneously either.

Before you ask, being able to melt weapons isn't related to having a heat aura either. Remorhazes can destroy weapons as well, yet they lack a heat aura.

Remoarhaz explicitly due it through heat and their heat is so great is can destroy anything, not just metal.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Remoarhaz explicitly due it through heat and their heat is so great is can destroy anything, not just metal.
...Your point being? Nobody said it wasn't connected to remorhaz heat, just that it wasn't connected to a heat aura.

[No brains]

So not only does heat irregularly melt weapons, it also does not radiate like it should?

Maybe it's all the displaced heat missing from all those light spells just scattered wherever.

[ZamielVanWeber]

...Your point being? Nobody said it wasn't connected to remorhaz heat, just that it wasn't connected to a heat aura.

Since you want to be pendantic: magmins do not destroy weapons through a heat aura either. Their aura is made of fire and their ability to melt weapons is independent of that. Shut off their firey aura and weapons will melt just fine unlike a remorhaz where it is explicitly their heat that is doing it.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe weapon destruction is done by concentrating their heat at one spot? I mean, the temperature to melt metal is really high, so maybe that's why heat auras don't melt weapons.

[Celestia]

Heat auras can't melt steel swords.

[danielxcutter]

Heat auras can't melt steel swords.

Uh, yeah, that's why I said that they might destroy weapons by concentrating heat in the weapon up to a higher temperature than their auras usually are? Did I say it wrong?

[Celestia]

Uh, yeah, that's why I said that they might destroy weapons by concentrating heat in the weapon up to a higher temperature than their auras usually are? Did I say it wrong?
I was making a steel beams reference.

[danielxcutter]

I was making a steel beams reference.

I didn't get it. I still don't.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I didn't get it. I still don't.

It is a reference to a conspiracy theory in the US regarding an important historical event. (I am speaking broadly so to avoid any political reference). The term that came associated with the theory is "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams." Celestia was referencing that.

[danielxcutter]

It is a reference to a conspiracy theory in the US regarding an important historical event. (I am speaking broadly so to avoid any political reference). The term that came associated with the theory is "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams." Celestia was referencing that.

...Oh, okay.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...Oh, okay.
It's even stupider than it sounds. Trust me.

[No brains]

Is there a way to mitigate a magmin's downsides to make it a +0 creature? Suppose you were playing in a fire-elemental party or you had easy access to protection from elements, would that help at all?

Because a magmin burns a lot of things, doesn't that mean that many tools are impossible to use? Spellbooks would burn or melt, making wizard impossible to play. Even spell component pouches and holy symbols could go up in smoke. Is there a way to make necessary equipment safe for these little dorks?

[Celestia]

Is there a way to mitigate a magmin's downsides to make it a +0 creature? Suppose you were playing in a fire-elemental party or you had easy access to protection from elements, would that help at all?

Because a magmin burns a lot of things, doesn't that mean that many tools are impossible to use? Spellbooks would burn or melt, making wizard impossible to play. Even spell component pouches and holy symbols could go up in smoke. Is there a way to make necessary equipment safe for these little dorks?
Make tools out of asbestos. *sage nod*

[No brains]

Make tools out of asbestos. *sage nod*

Do elementals need to save versus mesothelioma? *fool shrug*

[Inevitability]

Do elementals need to save versus mesothelioma? *fool shrug*

They have immunity to poison, so probably not.


Is there a way to mitigate a magmin's downsides to make it a +0 creature? Suppose you were playing in a fire-elemental party or you had easy access to protection from elements, would that help at all?

Sure, but that's niche enough that I doubt it'd affect LA.


Because a magmin burns a lot of things, doesn't that mean that many tools are impossible to use? Spellbooks would burn or melt, making wizard impossible to play. Even spell component pouches and holy symbols could go up in smoke. Is there a way to make necessary equipment safe for these little dorks?

It could be argued that the use of 'anyone' (rather than 'anything) means only creatures take the damage from their touch and aura, and that the only way for them to destroy weapons is to be hit with them. It's illogical, but so is any other part of magmins.

Failing that, a magmin could get a hard metal spellbook enhanced with a slipcase (CA, page 140), which would have hardness 8, enough to withstand both abilities. At 220 GP it wouldn't be cheap, but it'd work. There's also an enchantment that provides resist 12 against various energy types, but it's 3000 GP. Finally, a magmin might be able to tattoo its spells on its body.

Similarly, using a silver holy symbol might work as well: silver seems to have 8 hardness (and according to 3.0, 10).

Spell component pouches are probably unusable. I suggest getting Eschew Materials, or having an ally carry your pouch and hand you the items when needed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

They have immunity to poison, so probably not.
Isn't mesothelioma technically a disease?

[Mystic Muse]

Isn't mesothelioma technically a disease?

Yes, but it requires lungs, which elementals presumably don't normally have, since the elemental type explicitly doesn't breathe.

[Inevitability]

Isn't mesothelioma technically a disease?

I suppose so, but I figured its cause (asbestos) would be a poison.

[Long_shanks]

Isn't mesothelioma technically a disease?

Actually, you can't really contract mesothelioma after the product has been contructed. A firefighter with asbestos in their suits are not at risk of contracting it; it's more the miners that extract it and people who live or work in places where it has been loosely placed in the walls for insulation purposes.
There is an asbestos mine (now closed, funnily enough in a town called Asbestos) near my home town, and it's a pretty big health issue still in my region.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yes, but it requires lungs, which elementals presumably don't normally have, since the elemental type explicitly doesn't breathe.
...Yeah, that would probably help.



I suppose so, but I figured its cause (asbestos) would be a poison.
Technically, the negative symptoms of many diseases are caused by poisons. They're just poisons that happen to have been produced by bacteria.

[Inevitability]

Technically, the negative symptoms of many diseases are caused by poisons. They're just poisons that happen to have been produced by bacteria.

Not in this case, though. The responsible poison here is fully standalone. D&D may treat poisons created by bacteria as diseases, but probably not a toxic substance that isn't produced by any living creature.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Not in this case, though. The responsible poison here is fully standalone. D&D may treat poisons created by bacteria as diseases, but probably not a toxic substance that isn't produced by any living creature.
Your point being? (For the record, mine is that, outside game mechanics, the distinction between "poison" and "disease" is arbitrary at best.)

[Inevitability]

Manticore

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG180.jpg

Manticores are 6 RHD magical beasts, best known for their ability to shoot tail-spikes. Otherwise, they're just another boring bag of HP with wings.

At first glance, their tail spikes' are a wonderful source of bonus damage-stacking, but apparently they're limited to twenty-four spikes per day. At six spikes per turn, any manticore is going to run out quickly, at which point their damage output drops significantly. Unless you rarely fight more than one combat a day, investing in the spikes just won't pay off.

Ignoring the spikes for now, let's compare manticores to the griffon, another low/mid-level magical beast. The manticore has somewhat higher ability scores, better natural attacks and one less HD, the griffon has superior flight, pounce, and rake. With the griffon getting +0 LA, I feel like a similar score could be justified for the manticore.

+0 LA assigned: next are medusas.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why does everything have a per-day usage limit? It makes little enough sense when applied to spells (though perhaps there's some weird magibabble that explains this), but it gets downright painful when talking about biological features like spines.

[Inevitability]

Why does everything have a per-day usage limit? It makes little enough sense when applied to spells (though perhaps there's some weird magibabble that explains this), but it gets downright painful when talking about biological features like spines.

The manticore has room for 24 spines on its tail and requires a day to regrow them? Still unrealistic, but at least explicably so.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The manticore has room for 24 spines on its tail and requires a day to regrow them? Still unrealistic, but at least explicably so.
I guess that's the obvious answer, but it kinda breaks down when you think about it. Like, do they spikes grow back all at once? If not, why does the text imply otherwise (as opposed to saying, for instance, that they regrow at a rate of one per hour)? If so, what? And either way, why can't half-grown spikes be used in any way? Geez.

Anyways. Onto something different.

If we let the manticore fire spikes more or less limitlessly (or at least enough to let them be used more than a few times per day), the closest parallel would be an eldritch blast. Six 1d8+2 projectiles versus a 3d6 one...obvious pick. Slightly muddled by the magic-ness of the blast and how it can be augmented, but it'd still be favoring the spikes. But the manticore trades that superior blasting potential (and better physical chassis stuff, and clumsy flight) for a warlock's other invocations, a couple other neat tricks, superior skills, and opposable thumbs. Oh, and the manticore probably won't scale as well. Would this be worth a +1 LA?

[Segev]

The spikes growing back "all at once" makes sense in that they'd grow back in parallel. It probably would make more sense to track it as "they grow back 24 hours after they're fired," but it seems needlessly book-keepish to track that, when so much else is just "per day."

[GreatWyrmGold]

The spikes growing back "all at once" makes sense in that they'd grow back in parallel. It probably would make more sense to track it as "they grow back 24 hours after they're fired," but it seems needlessly book-keepish to track that, when so much else is just "per day."
That depends on the mechanisms at play in the spike-regrowing process. It could be a "conveyor belt" thing, like shark teeth or something, where only a small number grow at once before moving to appropriate positions on the end of the tail, then it could go like that.
And the "when so much else is just 'per day'" thing was kinda my point. Why is so much stuff "per day"?

[Remuko]

That depends on the mechanisms at play in the spike-regrowing process. It could be a "conveyor belt" thing, like shark teeth or something, where only a small number grow at once before moving to appropriate positions on the end of the tail, then it could go like that.
And the "when so much else is just 'per day'" thing was kinda my point. Why is so much stuff "per day"?

Intended to be a balancing factor by limitation. I'm guessing why "per day" specifically was the limitation is probably a holdover from older versions of the game, I didnt play older versions before 3.0 so I cant be 100% on that though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Intended to be a balancing factor by limitation. I'm guessing why "per day" specifically was the limitation is probably a holdover from older versions of the game, I didnt play older versions before 3.0 so I cant be 100% on that though.
Well, yeah. But why was "per day" the thing Gygax decided to use, all those decades ago?

[Morphic tide]

Well, yeah. But why was "per day" the thing Gygax decided to use, all those decades ago?

Because equivalent cooldowns get silly quickly. For example, 5/day ends up with a cooldown of 4.8 hours. That .8 has to be converted to 48 minutes. So the result is the awkward figure of "cooldown: 4 hours, 48 minutes. Maximum charges: 5" Charges combined with cooldowns in non-combat timescales get hard to manage because the DM or player has to be tracking things by the hour, minute and sometimes second, while also accounting for charges currently stored and maximum charges. You can do it, but it gets messy.

Having it be per-day makes the narrative occasion of restoring charges extremely clear: When the party stops for the night, or when a day passes. And that sort of easy to figure timescale is vital for games like D&D that have a level of priority on long-scale events.

Edit: As for my opinion on the spine's anatomy, I believe it's a setup where new spines grow into the place of previous spines all at once, and the spines have a replacement time of roughly one day. So each day, there's a new set of spines that grew through the place of the previous set. The amount of energy and material needed for this is insane, but so is a creature bigger than a horse flying with solid bones and a wingspan under 15 ft, so it falls under standard fantasy ignoring of real biology. Besides, it's not entirely impossible with existing biochemistry, if the spines are formed inside-out as solid near-cylinders. Biological chemical buildup rates can get extremely fast.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Because equivalent cooldowns get silly quickly. For example, 5/day ends up with a cooldown of 4.8 hours. That .8 has to be converted to 48 minutes. So the result is the awkward figure of "cooldown: 4 hours, 48 minutes. Maximum charges: 5" Charges combined with cooldowns in non-combat timescales get hard to manage because the DM or player has to be tracking things by the hour, minute and sometimes second, while also accounting for charges currently stored and maximum charges. You can do it, but it gets messy.
...Um...if you take it as a given that an ability has to be usable exactly five times each day, then a daily use limit is the most logical way to implement that. But why make that assumption? You're blatantly begging the question.


Having it be per-day makes the narrative occasion of restoring charges extremely clear: When the party stops for the night, or when a day passes. And that sort of easy to figure timescale is vital for games like D&D that have a level of priority on long-scale events.
There are plenty of other possible systems that do this. The most well-known is used by many video RPGs: Spells are tied to a mana pool, which depletes as spells are used and recharges when you rest (generally at inns). Or you could have a more talisman-ey focus, with players creating or gathering magical trinkets or materials during downtime and expending them during play. Or you could have magic do damage to the casters, lethal or otherwise, and have that "rest to restore strength" focus on healing wounds and so on. And that's just three possibilities that came to mind immediately; one of them is more complicated than Vancian magic (while simultaneously being more flavorful), while the other two are probably simpler. So why per-day crap?

[Morphic tide]

So why per-day crap?

Well, let's look at your suggestions:

1. Mana pool. Usually going to end up a form of de facto cooldown, and it doesn't let larger-scale things stay rare in use later on. It makes scarcity of ability use much harder to work out, because there's nothing to prevent someone from using only the big, flashy things or only the small, efficient things. And most will default to one or the other. So, people will not be using a lot of their abilities at all because they have no incentive to use the smaller effects over the larger effects, resulting in a large chunk of the abilities being dead space. There's also the matter that it's a number that will be constantly re-written over and over with every single ability used and it doesn't support preparation of abilities without getting more complicated than Vancian magic.

2. Talisman/item-based magic. The DM has to place all those items and the players have to track all the ingredients. Every single item used has to be tracked and is a separate consumable, which makes it mind-numbingly complicated to make use of without defaulting to a Magic Mart. Because you have to track every single item by physically writing it down. And you have to give a list of ingredients for every single talisman/item in the entire game, no exceptions. It's also very external power, reliant on items that can be taken away with the players having little power to stop it, and it's temporary power as well, lasting only as long as you have the items to craft with.

3. HP-based casting. This is the only one where I can give a direct reason why Gygax' vision would not let this happen. He wanted to have casters be extremely weak and easily killed early on. Having casting based on hit points leads to casters diving into getting as much health as they can without sacrificing spell strength. World of Warcraft(it constantly keeps happening with Warlocks) avoids the issues this causes by having the ability to actually survive being hit rely on armor, but the Chainmail-based system of OD&D doesn't play nice with large damage reduction. Because it eventually translates to "immunity to scratch damage." Which violates the "everything is always a threat" nature of OD&D because Gygax loved screwing over players.

[Inevitability]

Medusa

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG181.jpg

Let us take a moment to wrap our collective minds around the fact that the abomination pictured above is, I quote, 'indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet'. I'm fairly sure I'd be able to spot the difference, to be honest.

With that out of the way, let's take a look at medusas. They have six monstrous humanoid HD, which are somewhat south of a ranger's. Their ability scores get bonuses in the 2-4 range, with the exception of their unboosted strength.

Aside from that, medusae have the quite unique 'snakes' natural attack, which deals a few points of damage with moderate strength poison attached. They also have some natural armor.

Finally, their main attack. It's your typical petrification gaze, aided by innate charisma and availability of Narrowed Gaze. Useful against most stuff, nonfunctional against a few.

Having to choose between +1 and +2 LA, I think I'll settle for +1 right now. Medusas have one strong ability, but so do many other monsters, and apart from their one trick they're near-worthless. Feedback is welcome!

[Segev]

I'll just chime in to suggest that perhaps the image is an artist's rendition, and the artist had never seen a Medusa quite that clearly (given that he is not petrified).

Or maybe at a distance of 30 ft. or more they have a non-(ex), non-(sp), and non-(su) effect that causes them to look totally human to all observers.

Or they just usually wear much more clothing and hide their snakes under hoods?

[Inevitability]

Or they just usually wear much more clothing and hide their snakes under hoods?

Their hands still look weird, though. Hell, even their eyes are clearly inhuman. I'm honestly not sure how to disguise a medusa as depicted aside from illusions, heavy makeup, and covering it with a blanket.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Everything but the gaze screams +0 to me honestly but that gaze is a game changer. It comes online sooner than defenses against it and does not have the convenient 24 hour immunity clause or daily usage limits so a medusa can easily roll through encounters against anyone vulnerable to her gaze attack. +2 seems better but this may want a warning attached.

[Inevitability]

Everything but the gaze screams +0 to me honestly but that gaze is a game changer. It comes online sooner than defenses against it and does not have the convenient 24 hour immunity clause or daily usage limits so a medusa can easily roll through encounters against anyone vulnerable to her gaze attack. +2 seems better but this may want a warning attached.

I'd like to point out that without Narrowed Gaze, any ally within 30 feet will be affected as well. Given that you don't want to be the only one on your side in melee with a medusa's chassis, there's probably going to be people you don't want to hurt in the gaze area.

[flare'90]

I'll just chime in to suggest that perhaps the image is an artist's rendition, and the artist had never seen a Medusa quite that clearly (given that he is not petrified).

Or the artist is a reptilian.

[No brains]

I guess one way you could level adjust for the medusa is to compare it to a creature that can be invisible all the time. If you can circumvent needing to see, you don't need to worry about being petrified. Although a medusa is fully visible and vulnerable if its more than a few moves away.

I wonder if you could optimize the run action along with your gaze so you can strafe enemies and stay in spots where it is awkward for them to retaliate.

[Inevitability]

I wonder if you could optimize the run action along with your gaze so you can strafe enemies and stay in spots where it is awkward for them to retaliate.

The problem is that it seems enemies only need to make saves against your gaze if you use it directly against them as a standard action, or if they start their turn within range. Moving near them and away again doesn't seem to work.

[Flickerdart]

The gaze is one of those things that is not so hard to defeat if you know about it ahead of time...but most monsters won't. Compare it to an ubercharger, who kills without a save if he can get a charge off. A knowledgeable foe can easily deny him a charge vector, rendering his power worthless. But the tactic is still valid because most enemies will not know it's coming until they're smeared across the dungeon floor.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Let us take a moment to wrap our collective minds around the fact that the abomination pictured above is, I quote, 'indistinguishable from a normal human at distances greater than 30 feet'. I'm fairly sure I'd be able to spot the difference, to be honest.
Maybe medusae usually wear really, really good makeup?



Well, let's look at your suggestions:

1. Mana pool. Usually going to end up a form of de facto cooldown, and it doesn't let larger-scale things stay rare in use later on. It makes scarcity of ability use much harder to work out, because there's nothing to prevent someone from using only the big, flashy things or only the small, efficient things. And most will default to one or the other. So, people will not be using a lot of their abilities at all because they have no incentive to use the smaller effects over the larger effects, resulting in a large chunk of the abilities being dead space. There's also the matter that it's a number that will be constantly re-written over and over with every single ability used and it doesn't support preparation of abilities without getting more complicated than Vancian magic.
I'm not sure how it would "end up a form of de facto cooldown". Just...what? How? What? How are you imagining the mana system working?
I'm also not sure what the inherent problem of someone only using either big, flashy things or small, efficient things is. I mean, you need to design the spells with those possibilities in mind, but it's not like that's inherently more constricting or worse to play than the restrictions imposed by forcing players to use a few big, powerful spells and loads off little ones. If it matters that much, just design spells which can't just be replaced by versions with bigger numbers, or spells which work best when combined with other spells, or something.
The last sentence doesn't make sense. Care to elaborate on what the eff you're talking about? Why is ability preparation so much more complicated? Is addition really that terrifyingly complicated? For that matter, why is it important at all? (D&D is literally the only fantasy thing I've ever seen where preparing specific spells to use in a given day is a thing.)


2. Talisman/item-based magic. The DM has to place all those items and the players have to track all the ingredients. Every single item used has to be tracked and is a separate consumable, which makes it mind-numbingly complicated to make use of without defaulting to a Magic Mart. Because you have to track every single item by physically writing it down. And you have to give a list of ingredients for every single talisman/item in the entire game, no exceptions. It's also very external power, reliant on items that can be taken away with the players having little power to stop it, and it's temporary power as well, lasting only as long as you have the items to craft with.
You seem to assume that the system I'm describing involves players going into town and buying scrolls. That's...not what I described. I could repeat myself, but instead I'll provide an example of how it might work in play.

DM: "After an eventful day of journeying, you find a nice clearing. You know that by tomorrow, you'll reach the Burning Desert; this could be your last chance to stock up on provisions."
Ranger: "Alright. We set up camp. I'll go hunting, and maybe make some more arrows if I have time."
Wizard: "Neat. What talismen will we need? Heat resistance, obviously, but what else?"
Druid: "We're all out of healing elixers. Could you spend some of your downtime helping me with those?"
Rogue: "I'll pitch in. I've got plenty of lockpicks, and my other knicknacks won't be much good in a desert temple. Hey, could you ship up some invisibility powder?"

It would require having players record what consumables they had made or used, yes, but is this really that much worse than having to record what spells they had prepared or cast?
And yeah, a **** DM could strip players of their power, and there's nothing the player could do. He could also take the fighter's weapons, the rogue's tools, or the wizard's spellbook, and force the cleric into moral catch-22's designed to make their god angry at them. Basically the only core classes which can't have their dominant abilities stripped away by a malicious DM are the monk and the sorcerer. And that's not getting into designing encounters and challenges to specifically negate players' abilities. There is no mechanical solution to jerk DMs who want to screw you over.


3. HP-based casting. This is the only one where I can give a direct reason why Gygax' vision would not let this happen. He wanted to have casters be extremely weak and easily killed early on. Having casting based on hit points leads to casters diving into getting as much health as they can without sacrificing spell strength. World of Warcraft(it constantly keeps happening with Warlocks) avoids the issues this causes by having the ability to actually survive being hit rely on armor, but the Chainmail-based system of OD&D doesn't play nice with large damage reduction. Because it eventually translates to "immunity to scratch damage." Which violates the "everything is always a threat" nature of OD&D because Gygax loved screwing over players.
So, wait. Mages need health, because they burn lots of health to cast spells. So mages use some unspecified method (I dunno, a wizard prestige class with d12 HD that got written in by an idiot intern?) to get lots of health...a lot of which they burn to cast spells. This means that they're still not going to have a lot of hit points to spare on getting hurt. The only difference is that a wizard can hold back their magical power and survive longer, which is...bad, somehow? Worse than the 24-hour workday?


And again, these are just the first ideas off the top of my head. It's not good enough to try to debunk them; even if you did better than you have, you wouldn't have proved that Gygax had to go with daily limits. You're engaging in what I like to think of as "the Creationist's Fallacy"—thinking that pointing out perceived flaws in alternate explanations/solutions proves that yours is best. It doesn't. I didn't ask "Why didn't Gygax pick X option?", I asked "Why did he pick daily limits?" Trying to answer this without touching on the strengths of daily-limit systems is deeply misguided.

[Celestia]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

[danielxcutter]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

I'm not sure, but if we go by common sense(which often disagrees with RAW), then it should work.

[Inevitability]

I have a question, though I feel I already know the answer. Could a Medusa, or any creature with a gaze attack, wear a veil or sunglasses to block it? This is often used in fantasy.

Any creature with a gaze attack can just turn it off if they want to. Adding a veil to the process is rather unnecessary.

If I misread and you were referring to the targets covering their eyes, they'd be protected normally (though also blinded).

[Caelestion]

Medusas tend to be written as having no control over their petrification, other than veils, sunglasses etc. Medusa herself (still active after death), the medusa student in OOTS and even the medusa in Planescape: Torment all have no such control.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Any creature with a gaze attack can just turn it off if they want to. Adding a veil to the process is rather unnecessary.
Good for style, though. And intimidation. Threatening to remove a veil is a nice, clear indication of what you're threatening to do.

[khadgar567]

+1 thanks to horendous picture but lets talk the tartaresque in the room what the actual f wizards smoking when they create these monsters i kinda want one so i can conqure the drug world

[Caelestion]

Like every other creatures from Classical mythology, they didn't invent medusas.

[Jormengand]

If I misread and you were referring to the targets covering their eyes, they'd be protected normally (though also blinded).

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist (https://what-if.xkcd.com/14/).

[danielxcutter]

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist (https://what-if.xkcd.com/14/).

Oh, you're a fan too? I loved that series.

[Caelestion]

Of course, one could just use the Artemis Fowl method and use sunglasses which are see-through from the inside but reflective from the outside.

The problem being, of course, that those don't actually exist (https://what-if.xkcd.com/14/).

Fairy physics has found a way around such primitive Mudfolk limitations. :smallcool:

[GreatWyrmGold]

Fairy physics has found a way around such primitive Mudfolk limitations. :smallcool:
Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

[Morphic tide]

Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

Partial thermodynamics: For any force they create magically, they have to simultaneously create a specified fraction of the opposite. For example, flying magically would require them to exert a fixed fraction of their weight, increased when they move based on how fast they move, on something else. If nothing is in range, it's omnidirectional pressure on them. What's 10 atmospheres of pressure in PSI? Because at that point, it gets dangerous. And making a single cup of water boil might well cause instant hypothermia, and you'd flash freeze before getting anywhere with slagging iron.

Traditional magic users don't really notice because they've institutionalized dealing with it by applying this opposite force to the target of the spell, weakening it in exchange for having no backlash issues from it. The "muggleborn" who started popping up during the population explosion of the Industrial Revolution don't know this and might well have a high fatality rate from stuff like causing massive internal damage from tossing lightning and suddenly having a large positive charge in their body. Which means suddenly missing a bunch of electrons that are probably holding spmething important together.

However, there's advantages to this, too. If you can cast spells that do opposite things, like applying heat and cooling, then they end up much stronger due to venting the opposites into each other. You "pay off" the heat by upgrading the cold and vice versa. But you have to fully recognize what's going on to make it work out for even just lightning bolts or flight. Which means knowing about the science behind the forces involved.

A fun thing to do with portals in this case is to have them work by shortening the distance between two geometric planes, so the opposite is lengthening the distance, meaning you can delay an enemy charge while hastening an ally's movement. And intentionally-sloppy magic can increase the opposite force, allowing you to Fireball one person as you Cone of Cold a second.

[danielxcutter]

Random tangent: Given how often scientist-type characters are "punished" for trying to exploit or work around the rules of magic and/or meddling with forces they don't understand, I'd like to see some magicky-type characters get similarly punished for breaking laws of physics that they don't understand. Sadly, I can't think of anything good for asymmetrical reflectivity...

Cloud Chariot, a Wu Jen spell, allows 1-mile flight within a single round. If real-life physics were even remotely applied, then the sonic boom should liquidize the caster with in half a second.

[Remuko]

Cloud Chariot, a Wu Jen spell, allows 1-mile flight within a single round. If real-life physics were even remotely applied, then the sonic boom should liquidize the caster with in half a second.

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.
That assumes a constant speed. If the caster spends any time accelerating or decelerating, the peak speed is going to need to be higher. If they spent three seconds accelerating at a constant acceleration and three decelerating, the peak speed would be 1200 mph, and the acceleration would be just over 18 G (thanks, Wolfram Alpha!). That's not necessarily lethal on its own, if you're accelerating in the right direction, but air friction would probably rub you the wrong way.

[No brains]

It's weird when teleporting makes more physics sense.

[Zancloufer]

You must go roughly 670 MPH to make a sonic boom. 1 mill in 6 seconds is only 600 miles per hour. No sonic boom. Still probably fatal.

It's actually about 766 MPH, or 1224 KMH to reach the speed of sound as it's about 334 m/s at sea level.

Though on the flip side Internets says you only need to go 670 MPH / 1088 KPH to make a sonic boom. Which is actually 90% of the speed of sound (~300 m/s).



It's weird when teleporting makes more physics sense.

Mostly because we don't actually understand it and most attempts at explaining it involved folding some of the 11 dimensions or just de-materializing the subject in question.

[Inevitability]

That assumes a constant speed. If the caster spends any time accelerating or decelerating, the peak speed is going to need to be higher. If they spent three seconds accelerating at a constant acceleration and three decelerating, the peak speed would be 1200 mph, and the acceleration would be just over 18 G (thanks, Wolfram Alpha!). That's not necessarily lethal on its own, if you're accelerating in the right direction, but air friction would probably rub you the wrong way.

It's not unreasonable to assume the spell moves the air around you as well. That way, you still have to deal with the acceleration issues, but the effects of air friction would be lessened, if not negated.

[danielxcutter]

I still stand by my opinion that Cloud Chariot wouldn't exactly be the safest way of transportation, if physics were applied. Even considering that by RAW, a 20th-level martial character has enough hit points to survive falling from orbit, the acceleration from CC would likely be dangerous. Fatal? Maybe not. Painful? Yes.

[Celestia]

The number of G forces the human body can withstand relies entirely on the orientation that they are being applied. Imagine a person standing straight. If they move up, a trained foghter pilot can withstand up to 9 Gs. Moving down, you get about 3 Gs before your eyes explode. Moving forward, however, let's you survive up to 45 Gs, though not necessarily uninjured. Assuming this spell moves you forward, the acceleration is well within the range of survivability, and the only issue is getting flayed by air resistance. So, assuming that magical flight takes care of that part, the spell is actually perfectly fine, so long as you don't use it to rocket upwards.

[danielxcutter]

The number of G forces the human body can withstand relies entirely on the orientation that they are being applied. Imagine a person standing straight. If they move up, a trained foghter pilot can withstand up to 9 Gs. Moving down, you get about 3 Gs before your eyes explode. Moving forward, however, let's you survive up to 45 Gs, though not necessarily uninjured. Assuming this spell moves you forward, the acceleration is well within the range of survivability, and the only issue is getting flayed by air resistance. So, assuming that magical flight takes care of that part, the spell is actually perfectly fine, so long as you don't use it to rocket upwards.

"Perfectly fine" in terms of mortality rate, perhaps, but honestly there are less painful ways of travel, even if you don't include teleportation. In a normal game, though, such factors are irrelevant, so it's not terrible in a situation where teleportation is unavailable. I'm pretty that's literally the fastest flight speed available with a single ability.

[Flickerdart]

As a Conjuration spell, we can only assume that it summons some opiates directly into your blood stream to counteract the excrutiating pain caused by the spell.

[Inevitability]

Mephit (1)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG183.jpg

There's no less than 10 kinds of mephit in the MM alone, because adding lots of low-level extraplanars apparently had a higher priority than writing comprehensible abilities or fixing the CR of celestials. Yay. On account of their high number, I'll be covering them in parts.

All mephits are outsiders with 3 RHD, putting them somewhere near the imp and quasit in terms of chassis. I'll be comparing them to these fiends where needed.

Currently, all mephits have a cohort LA of +3. I don't expect any to stay there.


Air Mephit

Ability scores are good, overall, with a large bonus to dexterity and a smaller one to charisma. Their airheadedness is annoying, and sadly common to all mephits, but a 60 ft. perfect fly speed helps make up for that, as does DR 5/magic.

Their breath weapon is poor, though its relatively short recharge time and possible feat support mean it has at least some potential. 1/hour Blur is actually quite good for a SLA, and it doesn't decrease in power much at higher levels. However, Gust of Wind 1/day is forgettable.

Finally, there's their fast healing, which triggers incredibly easily. As long as there's air around, an air mephit can just fan itself to heal, which may not even require an action (ask your DM!).

IMO, all this places air mephits above equally-leveled characters, and adjustment is in order. +1 LA.


Dust Mephit

Dust mephits are similar to their airy cousins, except their flight is a bit slower, their breath weapon is smaller and sacrifices some damage for a debuff (worth it, IMO), and their Gust of Wind SLA gets replaced by a high-CL Wind Wall (a very welcome trade-off). Sadly, their fast healing only works in dry and dusty areas, making its activation much harder.

All in all, it seems to me like these are about on par with air mephits, and therefore deserve the same LA. +1 for dust mephits as well.


Earth Mephit

Together with gargoyles, these mephits are amongst the few earth creatures with fly speeds. Their stats are very nice for a melee character, especially with their 1/hour Enlarge Person (self only) SLA. Their other SLA, Soften Earth And Stone, has its uses, though it's very environment-dependent.

The breath weapon is identical to the air mephit's (that is, boring), but at least their fast healing should be reasonably easy to trigger.

+0 LA.

[Segev]

Please tell me they have text that gives exception to their enlarge person self only effect so that it works on non-humanoids.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's not unreasonable to assume the spell moves the air around you as well. That way, you still have to deal with the acceleration issues, but the effects of air friction would be lessened, if not negated.
Which is why I didn't dwell on it. It's an easy problem to explain around.



As a Conjuration spell, we can only assume that it summons some opiates directly into your blood stream to counteract the excrutiating pain caused by the spell.
I like that idea, mostly because the image of someone casting the spell specifically for the opiates is hilarious.



Mephits!
The major unique features of the "mephit chassis" would probably be their breath weapons, fast healing, and flight. In order:
Unless there's some neat metabreath trickery, I don't see most of these being very useful in the long term. The debuff ones are potentially still useful, if you face enemies without good Reflex saves for whom AC and attack rolls are important. It's useful, but I don't see it being a dominant tool.
The most useful fast healing abilities are ones which can easily be used in combat (air mephits in general, and most others in the right campaign). But even without those, something like half of the mephits' fast-healing requirements aren't too tricky to work in between combats, meaning they should be able to return to each fight with full health without expending cleric spells or anything. Not a game-changer, but it's helpful.
Flight is flight. Some have it better than others.



Please tell me they have text that gives exception to their enlarge person self only effect so that it works on non-humanoids.

This works just like an enlarge person spell, except that the power works only on the earth mephit.
I mean, you could argue that it doesn't technically say that the power works on the earth mephit, just that it doesn't work on anyone else. But that would be pretty asinine.

[Inevitability]

Mephit (2)

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/mephit.gif

More mephits!


Fire Mephit

Low ability scores and a bad breath weapon with weak SLAs. At least they have a reasonably easy-to-trigger fast healing clause (ask your DM if a Continual Flame counts: RAW it probably should). Even so, I don't think this one deserves -0. Any who disagree should say so.


Ice Mephit

Breath weapon is an icy version of the dust mephit's. Slightly weaker in my opinion, though not enough to matter much. SLAs are pretty bad, and so is the fast healing clause (though the Chill Metal SLA can explicitly create ice from water, so that helps). AC is highest amongst all mephits, if that matters. Another +0 edging close to -0 LA.


Magma Mephit

What is it with fire-subtyped creatures and lower ability scores? It's the same with fire elementals.

Breath weapon is the now-familiar penalizing version, this time adjusted to deal fire damage. It's okay, I guess. SLAs are Pyrotechnics and a custom effect that allows the mephit to turn into a magma pool, both of which are pretty badly-written. Depending on how your DM reads it, it's either an incredible defense or inescapable trap. Finally, the fast healing clause, which is literally the fire mephit's, but better.

Another for the +0 LA pile, it seems.


Ooze Mephit

These guys have a swim speed in addition to usual mephit movement modes, as well as above-average strength and constitution. Breath weapon is an acidic penalizer, SLAs are Acid Arrow 1/hour and Stinking Cloud 1/day (which is decent enough). Fast Healing works only in wet or muddy environments: in a pinch a Create Water spell should do.

+0 LA.

[Inevitability]

Also, I'm considering bumping up the air and dust mephit to +1 LA on account of their comparatively strong abilities (having to go through nearly half a dozen sub-par mephits kind of put them in perspective). Do people agree?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Let's look at an air or dust mephit with a level in rogue and compare it to a 4th-level halfling rogue.

The mephits will have better Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma, but worse Intelligence. They would make better combatants and possibly better party faces (assuming we ignore the effects of racism), but losing two skill points per level would hurt their versatility, especially since they lose out on three levels of access to the rogue skill list. I'd still give the edge to mephits.
Mephits have a weak breath weapon, the rogue has an extra sneak attack die (and will get their next a level sooner). It's not hard to argue that these two abilities are roughly equivalent, each having different situations in which it's better or worse than the other, but the breath weapons (especially the air mephit's) scale poorly.
Next, defensive abilities. Mephits have +3 natural armor (and another +2 from superior Dexterity), making them hard to properly hit in the first place. They also have damage reduction 5/magic, which is good at this level but gets worse for a while (until DR/magic is replaced with various other DRs, I guess). Then there's fast healing; that improves durability impressively if you can consistently exploit it (far easier for air mephits than dust). On the other hand, the halfling gets evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense and a bonus on saving throws. If it wasn't for the fast healing, I'd say that they are good against different threats but the mephits have a slight advantage; however, the air mephit has a strong advantage with its fast healing. Who needs a cleric when you can just fan yourself for a minute and fix yourself up?
Finally, miscellaneous racial abilities. Air and dust mephits have hourly blur and another daily ability (the dust mephit's probably being more useful than the air mephit's, unless it lost its fan). Mephit claws are about equivalent to daggers, except that you can't throw them and don't take two-weapon fighting penalties (and if you're disarmed, you have bigger problems). They can also try to summon a levelless buddy once each day with a 75% chance of failure, which seems pretty negligible. Also, mephits walk faster than halflings and fly naturally (air slightly faster than dust). The halfling gets a few useful skill bonuses, a bonus to thrown weapons, and some more support material.

The mephits have it better. I can see a +1 LA being applied.

[Yklikt]

Given that we are giving LAs to creatures normally not eligible for being PCs to begin with, I'll take a stab at a couple really low CR(as in below CR 1) creatures:

Cat: The racial ability score modifiers are -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, +1 Wisdom and -2 Charisma. This is bad for the vast majority of situations, with the penalties wrecking a lot of stuff.

The racial skills, though are kinda ridiculous. According to the statblock, they use Dexterity instead of Strength for Climb and Jump and get +4 to Climb, Hide and Move Silently, with a +8 to Jump and Balance. In "tall grass or heavy undergrowth," their racial Hide bonus increases to +8. The size modifiers for Tiny creatures are +2 Attack and AC, -8 Grapple and +8 Hide, to account for that.

They also have the Claw/Claw/Bite with a pitiful start of 1d2 Claw and 1d3 Bite, with a single Claw for a primary. The Claws have +4 accuracy and the Bite has -1 accuracy, with -4 damage for all due to Strength.

The bonus feat is Weapon Finesse, making their attack bonus run on Dexterity instead of Strength, but their -4 modifier on Strength makes it impossible for them to deal more than one damage.

They also have a half-HD for their single RHD, which makes their average health 2, and have 14 AC by default.

All things considered, I'm slightly tempted to give LA +1 off the power of the skill bonuses making them a pain in the rear to catch, but the fact that their natural weapons are literally incapable of dealing more than one damage and they keep the utterly abysmal Strength makes them not really worth using.

So, LA +0, because they have capabilities in line with a level two character once they pick up a class that synergizes with those racial capabilities. Like Rogue. Provided you allow them to occupy the same space as all larger creatures because everything below Small has a Reach of 0 ft.

Bat: Ignoring the Anthropomorphic Animal cheese because that's a template, they have modifiers of -5 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom and -3 Charisma. I note that these are their ability score modifiers by the statblock, not the difference from standard stats.

They have functionally no ground speed, but have 40 ft. flight with Good maneuverability and 20 ft. Blindsense. They also get 16 AC and have a grand total of 1 HP average due to having 1/4 d8 HD.

Attack wise, they literally don't have attacks. No natural attacks to be seen here. Their overall modifier for attacks, if they get them, is +0 because the size modifier cancels the Strength penalty.

Speaking of Size modifiers, they get, as already mentioned, +4 to Attack and AC, making them rather hard to hit. They get -12 to Grapple and +12 to Hide, making them almost as good at hiding as a cat in the open. Their own racial skill modifiers are a +4 to Spot and Listen while Blindsense is up.

I'd go with LA +1 if they had a natural attack, because the size modifiers make them break even on them and Weapon Finesse would make them have a serious jump in accuracy. As is, due to lack of hands to hold normal weapons and the penalties of Diminutive size, which include having weapons be basically useless, I have to give them -0 because their only viable option is to go Druid and rely on t1 shenanigans, which they'd do better than most due to the natural (Ex) Flight and AC. Nothing else works because they have penalties to important scores or lack of needed things to really work.

---

Comments on this? Am I massively overvaluing racial skills and AC? Do you think I'm undervaluing something? Am I missing important things which make them worth more or less?

I think only Inveibility is supposed to do this in this thread.

[Morphic tide]

I think only Inveibility is supposed to do this in this thread.

Well, it's not like they'll get through to minor things any time soon, and I can't locate any notable order of the things being posted. And it's not like it's mentioned openly outside the first post of the first thread from well over a year ago.

Here's a quoted version of the first thread's first post, for reference:

Please post in the next thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520556-The-LA-assignment-thread-II-Where-The-Em-Dash-Doesn-t-Exist), thanks in advance.

In the past, I've seen many threads on under- or overpowered monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)), and even a few (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II) that attempted to fix some faulty challenge ratings.

However, I have never seen anyone trying to give the various critters WotC has made an appropriate level adjustment. That's a pity, because many monsters are interesting creatures that are either ruined by an unplayable LA, or a total lack of it. In this thread, I will attempt to fix this.

All assigned LAs can be found in the archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive).

As you can see, there is precisely one sentence, 9 words long, indicating that Inevitability wants to do all the posting themselves. And I only noticed it because I went back to look for such things because you brought it up.

[Yklikt]

As you can see, there is precisely one sentence, 9 words long, indicating that Inevitability wants to do all the posting themselves. And I only noticed it because I went back to look for such things because you brought it up.

What about


Sango, I appreciate you trying to help, and I may not have been clear in the OP, but could you please not do this? Firstly, discussion on the aboleth is still ongoing, and secondly, I don't like you hijacking someone's thread.

then?