That is NOT a fiendish octopus!

[GoC]

A fiendish octopus is large while by counting the hobgoblins you can see it's a minimum of Garguantuan and almost certainly Colossal!:smalleek:

That means it will have at least 36 HD (more likely about 50) and all the stat, AC and BAB increases that entails!
How did redcloak summon something that is probably epic?!

[yoshi927]

The leading theory is that Rich doesn't do complex proportions every time he draws a monster. :smallbiggrin:

(I'm pretty sure this is a joke)

[GoC]

The leading theory is that Rich doesn't do complex proportions every time he draws a monster. :smallbiggrin:

(I'm pretty sure this is a joke)

My geekyness is too great for me to joke about such things.:smalltongue:
"That fiendish octopus could crack this boat like a fortune cookie!" indicates that it's more than just a matter of art.

[bosssmiley]

The leading theory is that Rich doesn't do complex proportions every time he draws a monster. :smallbiggrin:

(I'm pretty sure this is a joke)

Nah, the octopus is exactly as big as it needs to be for the purposes of the story. A "Beast from 20,000 Fathoms" that was only about 10 feet across wouldn't look half as cool as one as big as your ship. Oni-no-Calamari probably still has the stats of a normal giant fiendish cephalopod (...I just realised how out of place the word "normal" looks in that context), he just has a 'narrative purposes only' size bump.

[Bluelantern]

Fool! he obviously is on effect of some enlargement spell of some sort.

[PaladinFreak]

Fool! he obviously is on effect of some enlargement spell of some sort.

Actually, I think I agree with that. Redcloak could have cast Enlarge Monster on his summon, which would encrease it's Strength and size, but not it's HD or difficulty to summon.

[GoC]

Fool! he obviously is on effect of some enlargement spell of some sort.

Of course!
Now what spell increases size category by 2 and what spell summons a fiendish advanced giant octopus?

PaladinFreak: I've never heard of Enlarge Monster. Is it core?

[Voidhawk]

I think it was refering to the fact it seemed to have horns and as Redcloak sumoned it i think it's some kind of octopus fiend, i.e: demonic, evil, arrgh the tentacles, type beastie

[Shatteredtower]

Of course!
Now what spell increases size category by 2 and what spell summons a fiendish advanced giant octopus?Burlew's sense of the dramatic (Cleric 6, Giant 2, Sorcerer/Wizard 5).

[squidthingy]

It's probaly just another extended summon monster spell, like the one redcloak uses here
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)
you might want to put spoiler in the title, because I hadn't read the new comic yet and you gave parts away

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

It's quite possible that it is not, in fact, fiendish in the ultimate DnD sense of the word. It could be some other freaky-deaky template I newither know nor care about.

After all, the captain could be reering to it as a 'fiendish octopus' in the same sens that someone could say "He stole my wallet! That fiend!" when refering to--you guessed it--and ordinary criminal.

[Deepblue706]

Who cares if it's actually fiendish or not! The Giant already threw in OTHER FF6 characters - he just wasted the perfect opportunity to put in Ultros! Despite his size, he knows how to cause more than enough ruckus.

[GoC]

It's probaly just another extended summon monster spell, like the one redcloak uses here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)

Elephants/mamoths are naturaly huge and it looks about the right size.
A giant octopus is naturaly large while there it looks colossal.

Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins: It's red and has horns. Also, being fiendish doesn't change it's size (it didn't with the mamoth).

[Gez]

... I expected the thread to say "it's a fiendish squid! it only has six tentacles!" or something like that. (That said, checking the comic now, I count eight tentacles on the first panel.)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Who cares if it's actually fiendish or not! The Giant already threw in OTHER FF6 characters - he just wasted the perfect opportunity to put in Ultros! Despite his size, he knows how to cause more than enough ruckus.
Don't tease the Fiendish Octopus, kids!

[Kish]

After all, the captain could be reering to it as a 'fiendish octopus' in the same sens that someone could say "He stole my wallet! That fiend!" when refering to--you guessed it--and ordinary criminal.
Surely anyone who said that would mean an actual wallet-stealing creature from the Lower Planes. Don't be silly.

[explanetpluto]

Redcloak is controlled by the DM, so certain rules don't necessarily apply.

Or he's metagaming.

[Murderous Hobo]

Well obviously the OotS has read the monster manuals so Rich is coming up with home brew monsters to keep them on their toes.

I'll root for the 'size of the plot' explanation though.

[AlterForm]

... I expected the thread to say "it's a fiendish squid! it only has six tentacles!" or something like that. (That said, checking the comic now, I count eight tentacles on the first panel.)

Actually, I think that (with Enlarge Monster possibly) is the best idea. It sure looks more octopus-y than squid-y, but Elan did say "Squid pro quo" and they might have managed to sunder off a couple of its tentacles already (not too hard).

[bluish_wolf]

If it is an octopus, that would be appropriate, as calling someone an octopus is an insult in Japanese. It would stick to the whole Oriental theme.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Summon Monster spells don't nessecarily summon only the base list of monsters. Many fiends (and other creatures) can be summoned that are not in the base lists. That being said, Summon monster VIII has a CR range of 7-10 so a CR 10 octopus that's gargantuan instead of large is perfectly OK.

[thegreatmightynerd]

the gargantuan creature template from (i think) MMII

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins: It's red and has horns. Also, being fiendish doesn't change it's size (it didn't with the mamoth).

Colour means nothing to the modern cephalopod. Think of the cuttlefish, the squid... the octopus! All have the ability to alter their pigmentation! Even the Nautilus and Giant Squid retain rudimentary versions of this skill!

The horns don't necessarily make it fiendish. Is your garden variety long horn steer fiendish? I think not. Well, there was the one....

Also, Squid have ten tentacles--the same as an octopus plus the addition of two extra-long ones.

[tannish2]

first: *ominous music* MAGIC, possible miracle theres a wu-jen spell that increases size by huge numbers, and im sure that it could be a different template, but, with all its redness, it must be feindish, because as we all know everything feindish is always red, duh

[Chronos]

Most summoned monsters are celestial (for good casters) or fiendish (for evil casters). The exceptions are creatures that are already outsiders or elementals. So a cephalapod of unusual size (whatever it is) summoned by Redcloak would have to be fiendish.

The only way it could be non-fiendish is if Leeky is somewhere just off-panel and cast it with a Summon Nature's Ally spell instead of Summon Monster.

[falterfire]

Surely anyone who said that would mean an actual wallet-stealing creature from the Lower Planes. Don't be silly.

Must resist urge to put one in next campaign...

[RAGE KING!]

the octopus is mostly there for the purpose of v's statement, and haley's statement, i doubt anything important will happen with it.

[GoC]

the gargantuan creature template from (i think) MMII

what's it's CR adjustment?

[Aethir]

It could be the Titanic template from MMII it increases HD to 25 and gives CR13 to monsters that start as a CR1 and gives +13 to CR2+. I'd say it started as a regular octopus and had the template added making it CR13.

[Spiky]

So a cephalapod of unusual size

Damn COUSes.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Damn COUSes.

I don't think they exist...:smalltongue:

[explanetpluto]

I don't think they exist...:smalltongue:

Famous last words.

[mockingbyrd7]

I don't think they exist...:smalltongue:

Aaaaargh!

I just had a vision of Carey Elwes as Elan and Robin Wright Penn as Haley, trekking through the Fire Swamp... and...

Wow, that was awesome.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Its a fiendish giant squid (Summon Monster VIII), which is Huge, and has a reach of 30 feet with its tentacles.

Doesn't sound that implausible to me.

[Roderick_BR]

My geekyness is too great for me to joke about such things.:smalltongue:
"That fiendish octopus could crack this boat like a fortune cookie!" indicates that it's more than just a matter of art.

Or maybe all adult octopus have the potential to be that big in the OotS world.
RedCloak could have used spells to enlarge it too, I guess.

[GoC]

Its a fiendish giant squid (Summon Monster VIII), which is Huge, and has a reach of 30 feet with its tentacles.

Doesn't sound that implausible to me.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopusGiant.htm
It's not huge unless it has it's HD advanced and AFAIK you can't summon advanced monsters.

Roderick_BR: People keep mentioning the Enlarge Monster spell but I can't find it anywhere.

We have a CR 8 Giant octopus and it's size large but we need it to be Colossal (space>=30ft) without increasing CR above 13 (the maximum for a none-epic summon monster spell).
That means we need 3 size increments.

Aethir: Does it increase size by 5 steps (standard octopus is small) or does it make them colossal? Either way you'd need a 9th level summon for a CR 13.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ok, read carefully. There is no oc, to, or pus in my posts nor in the Summon Monster VIII Spell (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsS.html#summon-monster-viii) selection.

Here is the Giant Squid (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAnimal.html#giant-squid) however.


The comic may say octopus, but they may not know the difference between squids and octupi.

[Olorin93]

The comic may say octopus, but they may not know the difference between squids and octupi.

The "head" as drawn is clearly an octopus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus) (bulbous), not a squid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid) (streamlined with a distinctive shape), even a colossal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Squid) one. The characters in the comic may not know the difference or care (thus the squid and calamari jokes), but I believe we can take it as drawn, and horns seem to be a pretty good indication that it's fiendish.

[Ithekro]

There is though the "Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm) giant octopus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopusGiant.htm)" as a "Summon Monster VII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm)". It is listed as Large, but also that it can be advanced to Huge.

[dragoncmd]

My geekyness is too great for me to joke about such things.:smalltongue:
"That fiendish octopus could crack this boat like a fortune cookie!" indicates that it's more than just a matter of art.
since when has size been the sole determinant of str? Even a fine creature could do that with enough character levels and/or templates, and/or enhancement spells.

[Kurald Galain]

...and the Segovian Leviathan is 3/3.

Size does not correlate to power.

[Olorin93]

There is though the "Fiendish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm) giant octopus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopusGiant.htm)" as a "Summon Monster VII (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterVII.htm)". It is listed as Large, but also that it can be advanced to Huge.

Yes, that seems most likely. It's probably an "Extended Summon Monster VII", since he seems to keep that as one of his 8th level spell slots: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html.

[Chronos]

No, probably not Extended, since he's already used at least one eighth-level slot on an Extended Summon Monster today. This is later the same day; he hasn't had a chance to refresh his spells yet. Which is part of why Hinjo is so eager to fight him right now: It's not often that he'll be able to catch Redcloak so depleted.

For that matter, we don't even know that he routinely prepares Extended Summon Monster spells. The advantage to preparing spells is that if you have some idea what your needs are going to be for a day, you can plan accordingly, and Redcloak's needs for this particular day were very different from most days. He probably planned to use that spell specifically for a mount for himself, as a platform from which he could supervise and command the battle.

[Iranon]

... That's my wife!

[Olorin93]

This is later the same day; he hasn't had a chance to refresh his spells yet.

True - it's been so long in real time and such an eventful day in game time, that I completely forgot it was the same day.

[Bluelantern]

...or it could be that giant misreaded the size category of the creature =D

[Leatherhead]

Could be a monster from Gate spell.

[Derailuer]

says Iranon:
... That's my wife!

SAys me:
your wife! That's my ex! and yes, she is a fiend.

[GoC]

since when has size been the sole determinant of str? Even a fine creature could do that with enough character levels and/or templates, and/or enhancement spells.

What I ment was that the standard Giant Octopus does not have the strength to crush a boat "like a fortune cookie".

Ithekro: You can't summon an advanced creature with the standard spell otherwise first level druids could summon 6HD wolves and crush any encounter of CR<4.
Even if you could it's still 2 size categories lower than the creature in the comic.

[the_tick_rules]

as usual, rich doesn't follow the players handbook.

[ag30476]

What I ment was that the standard Giant Octopus does not have the strength to crush a boat "like a fortune cookie".

As was mentioned...gate. Besides it's just cool this way.

[kpenguin]

That octopus doesn't have to be gargantuan. A monster can be larger than the space it takes up on the grid.

For instance, a kraken takes up a space 20x20 feet, but has tentacles that are 30 ft long and arms that are 60 ft long. I assume that the actual space taken up by that 20x20 square is mostly its body.

As you can see from the comic, the octopus's body doesn't take up much space and its really its tentacles that are long, so it could be huge or even large.

As for the "crack this boat like a fortune cookie" comment, it was probably a hyperbole.

[Aquillion]

He probably planned to use that spell specifically for a mount for himself, as a platform from which he could supervise and command the battle.Supervise and command the battle for, at most, 144 seconds (a little under two and a half minutes?)

An extend summon monster spels still only lasts 1.5 rounds per caster level.

And regarding that and Gate, it doesn't seem likely that Redcloak can cast 9th-level-spells... he's been in plenty of situations today when it would have been worth pulling one out (like, say, when he was about to DIE). The fact that he hasn't strongly suggests that he can't; and if he kept it in reserve through all that, it seems pretty unlikely that he'd spend it now on something so comparatively pointless. (Ignoring the fact that gate costs 1000 xp if you use it to summon, too.)

[Vuzzmop]

God, get over it! The Giant wanted to make a scary looking giant fiendish octopus, so he made a really big fiendish octopus! Does he really need to explain his motives? Shouldn't it be obvious?

[GoC]

That octopus doesn't have to be gargantuan. A monster can be larger than the space it takes up on the grid.

For instance, a kraken takes up a space 20x20 feet, but has tentacles that are 30 ft long and arms that are 60 ft long. I assume that the actual space taken up by that 20x20 square is mostly its body.

As you can see from the comic, the octopus's body doesn't take up much space and its really its tentacles that are long, so it could be huge or even large.

A colossal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) animal takes up a space 30ft by 30ft. An octopus' head is roughly circular when viewed from above. The one in the comic measures 6 hobgoblins in width. Each hobgoblin takes up a 5ft by 5ft square.
From this we can determine that the head alone is colossal.

Vuzzmod::smallconfused:

[Chronos]

An extend summon monster spels still only lasts 1.5 rounds per caster level.2 rounds per caster level. And a lot can happen in 30+ rounds, in D&D: That was, in fact, enough time for him to supervise and lead a critical portion of the battle.

[Wrecan]

This is later the same day; he hasn't had a chance to refresh his spells yet.
We don't know that. All clerics pick a specific time of day to refresh spells. Redcloak's time may be late afternoon. It only takes an hour for a cleric to refresh his spells. Between 466, with Redcloak and Xykon just after escaping the tower, and 473, when Redcloak tells Xykon he's going to attack Hinjo's junk, it's entirely possible that an hour or more has passed.

I think it's safe to say Redcloak has refreshed his spells since Soon almost coup de grace'd him.

[Wrecan]

Chances are, the octopus is only huge. Its head appears to be the width of five hobgoblins, or about 25' - 30', which makes it a Huge creature (and oddly only occupies 15' of space).

It also has 30' reach with its tentacles, which is more than enough to grapple the ship. Advancing a giant octopus to Huge increase its HD by 5. This only increases the octopus' CR by 1 or 2, making the Huge Giant Octopus a CR 9-10 creature, and the fiendish huge giant octopus a CR 11-12 creature, the equivalent of a fiendish giant squid you can summon via Summon Monster VIII.

So, in my opinion, Redcloak cast Summon Monster VIII. Rather than a fiendish giant squid, Giant allowed Redcloak to summon an advanced Fiendish Huge Giant Octopus, purely for aesthetic purposes.

Assuming this spell has not been Extended, the octopus will last no more than 1 round/level, which I think we've estimated at 16th level.

[ag30476]

You GoC when all is said and done an augmented summon monster vii summons a fiendish giant squid with +4 str and +4 con which is not all that different from a fiendish giant squid enlarged to gargantuan size. After all is said and done, the two monsters are about equal except the gargantuan one has 5 feet more reach and +2 to grapple. So it's not bad artistic license to draw an augmented summoned creature as one size larger.

[shaddy_24]

Ok, DMs don't always follow rules exactly. Making additions or new ones make the bad guys more interesting because they can do things the PCs can't. That makes them more of a challange because you don't always know the way to counter this new ability, where if they had an ability you have, you know it's strengths and weakneses. So the Giant probably just allowed Redcloak to summon an augmented fiendish giant octopus to throw the PCs off.

Either that or he thought drawing it bigger would make it look cooler and more threatening.

[Aquillion]

Maybe it's ALSO an illusion, and Redcloak just doesn't know a thing about octopii.

(And the little guy it's holding is part of the illusion too, naturally, to make it more believable.)

[Chronos]

We don't know that. All clerics pick a specific time of day to refresh spells. Redcloak's time may be late afternoon. It only takes an hour for a cleric to refresh his spells. Between 466, with Redcloak and Xykon just after escaping the tower, and 473, when Redcloak tells Xykon he's going to attack Hinjo's junk, it's entirely possible that an hour or more has passed.Ouch, good point. The default time for evil clerics is, I think, sundown or midnight, which would mean that, at the least, Redcloak is close to his refreshing-time (not a good thing for Our Heroes). I think it's highly unlikely that he's already refreshed, though, for the simple reason that the comic isn't close to ending. A refreshed Redcloak (plus hoards of hobgoblins) vs. a drained Durkon, Hinjo, and Lien wouldn't be a battle; it'd be a massacre. So either the Giant has an outrageous deus ex machina in mind, or Redcloak's still depleted.

Oh, and Aquillion, the plural of "octopus" is either "octopuses" (using English rules), or "octopodes" (using Latin rules). It's not "octopi", as one might guess from a cursory knowledge of Latin, and it's certainly not "octopii", which isn't the way to form the plural of any Latin word.

[sum1won]

Ouch, good point. The default time for evil clerics is, I think, sundown or midnight, which would mean that, at the least, Redcloak is close to his refreshing-time (not a good thing for Our Heroes). I think it's highly unlikely that he's already refreshed, though, for the simple reason that the comic isn't close to ending. A refreshed Redcloak (plus hoards of hobgoblins) vs. a drained Durkon, Hinjo, and Lien wouldn't be a battle; it'd be a massacre. So either the Giant has an outrageous deus ex machina in mind, or Redcloak's still depleted.

Oh, and Aquillion, the plural of "octopus" is either "octopuses" (using English rules), or "octopodes" (using Latin rules). It's not "octopi", as one might guess from a cursory knowledge of Latin, and it's certainly not "octopii", which isn't the way to form the plural of any Latin word.

Both octopuses and octopi are legit words for the plural of octopus. I just checked two different dictionaries, and that's a pretty good reference for this sort of thing.

[Sammael]

Of course that is a gargantuan+ fiendish octopus. The answer to the question of how it got summoned is gate, which allows the caster to call and control a creature with HD of up to 2x caster level. Redcloak could have had a scroll of gate, which has a minimum caster level of 17 (thus HD = 2x17 = 34). Alternatively, he could have cast it himself - we have no clue as to what his caster level is or what domains he possesses.

Additionally, he may have called an even larger octopus without the ability to control it. Why would he care if it's under control or not when it's in the water, and the only thing to attack is the enemy ship?

[Wrecan]

A refreshed Redcloak (plus hoards of hobgoblins) vs. a drained Durkon, Hinjo, and Lien wouldn't be a battle; it'd be a massacre.
I don't think it will take a deus ex machina. Redcloak is on the shore. All that need be done is Hinjo and Durkon stop the octopus. Heck, V might remind Elan he has Dispel Magic, and Elan gets a lucky dispel check. Meanwhile Haley and Belkar -- who are not severely hurt -- tumble through the hobgoblins onto the boat with Roy. Then they take off. Very quickly, they will be beyond Redcloak's spells, refreshed or not. Since Xykon is back with Teevo, he has no means to fly after them.

Plus, he's only doing this for kicks. If they get away, he won't be particularly heartbroken. I doubt he'll go very far in giving chase, even if he could.

[mockingbyrd7]

Ouch, good point. The default time for evil clerics is, I think, sundown or midnight, which would mean that, at the least, Redcloak is close to his refreshing-time (not a good thing for Our Heroes). I think it's highly unlikely that he's already refreshed, though, for the simple reason that the comic isn't close to ending. A refreshed Redcloak (plus hoards of hobgoblins) vs. a drained Durkon, Hinjo, and Lien wouldn't be a battle; it'd be a massacre. So either the Giant has an outrageous deus ex machina in mind, or Redcloak's still depleted.

The sun is down, it's been getting darker and darker. It doesn't get as dark as it has before sundown, so Redcloak could be full again. And I just had a thought: he worships The Dark One, could it be possible that, the darker his surroundings (or perhaps the later it is in the day) the more powerful Redcloak becomes??



Oh, and Aquillion, the plural of "octopus" is either "octopuses" (using English rules), or "octopodes" (using Latin rules). It's not "octopi", as one might guess from a cursory knowledge of Latin, and it's certainly not "octopii", which isn't the way to form the plural of any Latin word.

What about the deadly octoPEDES? Gotta watch out for those eight legged centipedes. Or is it 100-tentacled octopodes? I'm confused! :smallfrown: :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

[Oberon]

Maybe it's ALSO an illusion, and Redcloak just doesn't know a thing about octopii.

(And the little guy it's holding is part of the illusion too, naturally, to make it more believable.)

Not unless Elan is also an illusion...


But i'd say it looks gargantuan at the largest... I don't think it's near as big as an Elder Red Dragon (using core rulebook examples) but I think it seems about the same size as a purple worm, if a drastically different shape.

[Chronos]

The sun is down, it's been getting darker and darker. It doesn't get as dark as it has before sundown, so Redcloak could be full again.Judging from Azure City's climate, it's probably at a fairly low latitude, which means quick sunsets. The sun may be down, but it hasn't been down for an hour yet. Presuming, that is, that clerics of the Dark One start praying at sundown. They might also plausibly start their prayers an hour before, or a half-hour before (this would require them to be able to reliably estimate time until sunset, but we've already seen that goblin clerics are all nerds).

[Arnen]

It looks to me like it may just be a simple issue of perspective. If you look at the size of the girl in its tentacle compared to the rest of the people in the scene, they all appear to be the same size. So if everything, regardless of its distance from the "camera", is drawn to the same scale, the octopus is smaller than what everyone seems to think.

That's just my take on it, of course...

[DreadSpoon]

Each hobgoblin takes up a 5ft by 5ft square.

Bzzt. A hobgoblin does not take up a 5ft by 5ft square. That would be implying that all Medium and Small creatures are perfect 5ft cubes. They aren't. The 5ft square rule regarding movement and battle grids is because, in a fight, you generally need space around you. You do not plant your feet while fighting. You do not keep your body in a single position while fighting. You move around a bit, you move your arms, etc. You need enough space for yourself and for your movements in order to fight.

D&D IS ABSTRACT!! Do not take any numbers out of D&D as a proof of anything concrete. You don't strictly need 5ft squares to fight, but it makes the game playable to enforce that rule. A real fighter would need some 20 different feats out of D&D to represent actual fighting, IF you make the INCORRECT assumption that one attack (roll of the dice) equals one swing of your character's weapon. The explicitly state that this is not the case. Each attack represents a number of different swings, strikes, lunges, and feints by your character, with the attack representing a "meant to kill" strike.

D&D IS ABSTRACT! The size categories are rough estimates, at best. They exist solely for the purpose of figuring out some numbers. They exist so that you can have some sane rules for figuring out grapple modifiers, number of squares on a battle grid taken, and so on. A large creature is not a 10x10x10 cube. It is merely one that is big enough to warrant a negative AC modifier, a negative attack modifier, some grapple bonuses, and some extra space. That's all it means. That's it. Nothing else.

D&D IS ABSTRACT! The entire Player's Handbook is a series of guidelines on how to play out a fantasy tactical party war game with role-playing tossed in. The rules can be bent, stretched, broken, and glued back together by the DM as they see fit. Look at the official D&D settings. Eberron includes not only new feats, spells, classes, and races, but even alterations to the core rules and mechanics (like Action Points) and character creation process.

[Chronos]

A large creature is not a 10x10x10 cube.Wanna bet? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube) :smallwink:

That said, it looks like the octopus' body has a diameter about three times the height of a hobgoblin, which would put it comfortably into the Huge range. And while the space taken up by a hobgoblin on the battlefield might be an abstraction, its height isn't.

[pswbr]

The size os the beast and the spell used to put it in the fight really matter?

When I am playing D&D in the table with my friends, I follow the rules straightly. And when I pick the role of DM, I make the possible to follow the rules (some things are funnier when breaking some rules). You can bet I am a rule lawyer when I am playing, but being so single minded here is madness.

Who ever said this comic has to follow the Dungeons & Dragons rules? This is a comic history written by Rich Burlew and not any Wizards' rulebook.

If Rich want to put a tiny tarrasque looking for his mama in this comic, I am sure he will know how to put in a way that looks really funny.

[ag30476]

The size os the beast and the spell used to put it in the fight really matter?

It's not the size of the beast in the fight...



If Rich want to put a tiny tarrasque looking for his mama in this comic, I am sure he will know how to put in a way that looks really funny.
Speculations on the :mitd: are supposed to go in another thread.

[Wrecan]

Bzzt. A hobgoblin does not take up a 5ft by 5ft square. That would be implying that all Medium and Small creatures are perfect 5ft cubes.
A square is two-dimensional. A cube is three. I wrote the hobgoblin takes up a square. I'm referring to the Space of a hobgoblin as set forth in the MM.


D&D IS ABSTRACT!!
Oh, you're gratuitous use of capitalization and exclamation marks has totally convinced me. I mean, except for the tables that specifically describe height, width and Space, making it not abstract in this case.

[LordVader]

I'd say it's an Enlarged Fiendish Octopus.

[GoC]

Chances are, the octopus is only huge. Its head appears to be the width of five hobgoblins, or about 25' - 30', which makes it a Huge creature (and oddly only occupies 15' of space).
I'm not sure we're on the same page here...
The height/length entry is the longest distance between any two parts of the creature (easily 100ft in this case). The space entry is the smallest space you can fit the creature in.
The head could be in the 25-30 range but you won't be able to fit it in anything less than a 30ft cube unless you start cutting things off.
Hence it's colossal.


It also has 30' reach with its tentacles, which is more than enough to grapple the ship. Advancing a giant octopus to Huge increase its HD by 5. This only increases the octopus' CR by 1 or 2, making the Huge Giant Octopus a CR 9-10 creature, and the fiendish huge giant octopus a CR 11-12 creature, the equivalent of a fiendish giant squid you can summon via Summon Monster VIII.

Measure it. There's no way in hell that those tentacles are anything under 40ft long.

DreadSpoon: Judging by the fact that each hobgoblin is seperated by a fixed distance from the next one I'd say this is a D&D scene in all it's unrealistic glory.

Oberon: Indeed. Colossal is a size ranging from 64 ft high to 1600 ft high (a deity taking a stroll).

LordVader: ?
pswbr: Seems a bit unbalanced don't you think?

Sammael:That would seem to be the most logical conclusion but when would Redcloak have bought it? And why didn't he use it some time which would have been more useful? (the throneroom scene comes to mind) You don't just find gate scrolls lying around the place or Azur City would have had a few.

ag30476: No resemblance whatsoever. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid)

Aquillion: Seems unlikely as illusions are difficult to stab.

:smallsmile: <- this post needed a smilie

[ag30476]

ag30476: No resemblance whatsoever. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid)


Thor's smashed half the time. Odin has Alzheimer's. And you expect The Dark One to be an expert in cephelopods?

[Wrecan]

I'm not sure we're on the same page here...
The height/length entry is the longest distance between any two parts of the creature (easily 100ft in this case).
That can't be true with respect to octopuses, which have extended reach and don't wield reach weapons. The tentacles do not count when discussing a creature's height/length.

In fact, the rules specifically state that "Height or Length" only measures "Biped's height, quadruped's body length (nose to base of tail) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat)". I assume for our purposes, the octopus counts as a quadruped.

Measuring the height of the body (assuming its base is only a little beneath the waters) the octopus is four times as tall as the human it is crushing in its tentacles. A human is about 6' tall, at best. That's a height of 24'. (The body probably extends a ways below the water, though).

That makes it Huge. (If the octopus is squeezing a woman, who is typically shorter than 6', the octopus would be even more comfortably in the Huge range.)

The confusion comes, I think, in thinking the hobgoblins on the docks are spread out 5' apart. It appears to me, in fact, that the hobgoblins are packed into a tight formation, and are thus Squeezed, except for those in the front row (compare the space between hobgoblins and the space between Daigo and Kazumi, for example). The octopus seems to be as wide as six hobgoblins on the dock (accommodating that the more distant octopus appears smaller than it would if it were on the dock). If they are squeezed, then they are only about 15' across, which is again a Huge sized creature.

I agree that Lien appears to be stabbing a tentacle that is more than 30' from the octopus' base. I'm more willing to write that off as artistic license than I am to assume that Redcloak summoned a Gargantuan Fiendish Octopus.


Measure it. There's no way in hell that those tentacles are anything under 40ft long.
Based on my measurements, only Lien's tentacle is outside the Huge Reach of the octopus.

[Evil DM Mark3]

You know what? Maybe V has no ranks in Knowladge (The Planes). Hence he miss-identified some obscure deamon.

And?

[FrostXian]

Not unless Elan is also an illusion...




The whole city and the battle was an illusion to keep Xykon busy; what our heroes did not know was that Xykon was also an illusion from the beginning.

[Chronos]

I agree that Lien appears to be stabbing a tentacle that is more than 30' from the octopus' base. I'm more willing to write that off as artistic license than I am to assume that Redcloak summoned a Gargantuan Fiendish Octopus.The length of the octopus' attack reach is not necessarily the same as the length of its tentacles, either. The tip of a tentacle can't do much more than tickle someone: It would only be able to attack effectively some number of feet from the tip. So a reach of 30' could mean an actual tentacle length of 35' or 40'.

Even if it's only Huge, though, that still leaves questions, since a giant octopus is naturally only Large. That is enough to make it a plausible Summon Monster VIII, though (instead of the VII for a typical giant octopus).

[Quikngruvn]

Even if it's only Huge, though, that still leaves questions, since a giant octopus is naturally only Large. That is enough to make it a plausible Summon Monster VIII, though (instead of the VII for a typical giant octopus).

Yeah, I'm thinking SM8 but using a fiendish giant octopus of equivalent power of the fiendish giant squid that would have been summoned. If that's the case, it leads to an observation and a begged question:
Redcloak can cast at least two (non-domain) 8th-level spells, making him at least 16th level (non-domain, since SM8 isn't on any domain list).
If that's the case, why in the world did he use both 8th-level slots on Summon Monster? (Maybe he looked at the 8th-level Cleric spell list and didn't find anything more useful to wage a siege with....)

[pswbr]

GoC: I dont understand what you mean by "Seems a bit unbalanced don't you think?". Sorry, english is not my main language.

And the monster could be some DM brewed monster, or a DM enlarged fiendish octopuss, or a Dark One enlarged and fiendished octopuss, or the stars aligned that exact time, and the Redcloack's summon monster spell got powered, or whatever. There are a thousand explanations about that creature, and not a half follow the books. I think it is nonsense to keep looking with rule view to every panel of the comic.

Let the rules for the rpg, and the humor for the comic.

EDIT: It would be much less cool if Redcloack have been sommoned a large monster.

[Wrecan]

If that's the case, it leads to an observation and a begged question: Redcloak can cast at least two (non-domain) 8th-level spells, making him at least 16th level (non-domain, since SM8 isn't on any domain list).
Or he spent an hour praying for spells between fleeing Soon Kim and assaulting Hinjo's Junk.

[Scarab83]

Sure looks like a fiendish octopus to me.

[ag30476]

Sure looks like a fiendish octopus to me.

Looks more like Power Word: Kill Joke or Summon Trollish Thread

[Quikngruvn]

Or he spent an hour praying for spells between fleeing Soon Kim and assaulting Hinjo's Junk.

Much less likely in my opinion-- he'd say something like "I need to go pray" so that we'd know that he refreshed his spells. That would be rotten storytelling if something so potentially battle-tipping happened offscreen and unmentioned.

[Wrecan]

That would be rotten storytelling if something so potentially battle-tipping happened offscreen and unmentioned.

Why? The story doesn't require us to know if he prayed or not. He's not writing this strip for all of us nitpickers (most of whom can enjoy the strip despite any picked nits). Time passes in between strips and even in between frames.

Giant said as much when people whined about how easily it appeared Tsukiko defeated the Chlorine Elemental.

[Quikngruvn]

Why? The story doesn't require us to know if he prayed or not. He's not writing this strip for all of us nitpickers (most of whom can enjoy the strip despite any picked nits). Time passes in between strips and even in between frames.

Two reasons, mainly.

First, a matter of scale. I'll grant that there's no mechanical difference between time elapsing between comics during the Tsukiko/elemental encounter and while following Redcloak and Xykon post-castle explosion. However, there's a huge dramatic difference-- where in the elemental fight, off-screen spellcasting by Tsukiko would affect that one encounter (and her subsequent encounters, since she survived, naturally), off-screen praying by Redcloak would affect the whole freakin' siege (not to mention the depleted PC's hanging around Hinjo's junk). I do not believe that the Giant would relegate an action that would so seriously affect the siege (and, by extension, the story), to not just off-screen, but unmentioned. And not just us nitpickers would wonder when Redcloak would run out of spells.

Second, an application of Occam's Razor, wherein we make as few assumptions as possible to arrive at a theory. Going back to the Tsukiko/elemental encounter, we already know that Tsukiko is a mystic theurge, and thus has a buckload of spells prepared, so we already assume that her primary method of battle is slinging spells. The idea that she threw a bunch of spells at the elemental off-screen doesn't require any additional assumptions.

Compare to the summoned fiendish giant, um, cephalopod. If it's a f. g. octopus, it's a 7th level spell, and no new assumptions are introduced. Good. If it's a f. g. squid, or an advanced f. g. octopus, it's an 8th level spell, and an assumption must be introduced that Redcloak is at least 16th level (since he's been confirmed to be 15th). Not quite as good, but not bad because it's a reasonable assumption. If it's a fresh spell, then we have to assume that (a) Redcloak's window to pray during the day happened very recently during the battle, (b) he managed to find a place to hole up in for an hour (in a city under siege, mind you), and (c) he managed to remain undisturbed for an entire hour (again, in a friggin' war zone). That's (at least) three additional assumptions of decreasing levels of plausibility.

Since "Redcloak just prayed during the battle" is not the simplest reason, Occam's Razor says it's likely not the reason he could summon the giant fiendish cephalopod.

(This is why I was never on the debate team-- I couldn't come up with concise arguments.)

In any case, I recognize the possibility that in the next comic, Redcloak says something to the tune of "I just prayed and got all my spells back, so you're screwed, suckahs!" I just believe that possibility to be exceedingly small. :smallbiggrin:

And now for something completely different: if you've ever perused the list of animals in the MM (like, say, if you were playing a druid and exploring Wild Shapes), you may have noticed that there are only two invertebrates that are classified as Animals-- the squid and the octopus. (OK, four if you count the regular and giant varieties as distinct critters.) All other invertebrates are considered Vermin.

The reason? Cephalopod intelligence. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence) Fear the cephalopods.

[GoC]

In fact, the rules specifically state that "Height or Length" only measures "Biped's height, quadruped's body length (nose to base of tail) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat)". I assume for our purposes, the octopus counts as a quadruped.
I was unable to find the word "only" at the table you linked to I'm afraid.


Measuring the height of the body (assuming its base is only a little beneath the waters) the octopus is four times as tall as the human it is crushing in its tentacles. A human is about 6' tall, at best. That's a height of 24'. (The body probably extends a ways below the water, though).

Let me get this straight... You believe that what defines a monster's size category is it's height?
Sorry that's not how it works. It's the space it occupies that defines category.


That makes it Huge. (If the octopus is squeezing a woman, who is typically shorter than 6', the octopus would be even more comfortably in the Huge range.)

The confusion comes, I think, in thinking the hobgoblins on the docks are spread out 5' apart. It appears to me, in fact, that the hobgoblins are packed into a tight formation, and are thus Squeezed, except for those in the front row (compare the space between hobgoblins and the space between Daigo and Kazumi, for example). The octopus seems to be as wide as six hobgoblins on the dock (accommodating that the more distant octopus appears smaller than it would if it were on the dock). If they are squeezed, then they are only about 15' across, which is again a Huge sized creature.
I just measured the octopus and hobgoblins with a fricken' ruler! If those Hobgoblins are 6ft tall then the octopus will ocupy at least a 25ft square (the head was roughly 25ft wide) and if it can't fit in 25ft then it's colossal.
<SNIP>

pswbr: A lvl 15 cleric summoning such a powerful monster seems unbalanced.

[ag30476]

<SNIP>

LOL. I bow to a master.

[Wrecan]

I was unable to find the word "only" at the table you linked to I'm afraid.
The table defines the size of the creature as the length of the creature from tip to tail.


Let me get this straight... You believe that what defines a monster's size category is it's height?
No. I'm saying the height of the creature is an indication of it's size category.


It's the space it occupies that defines category.
On that basis the octopus is still Huge.


I just measured the octopus and hobgoblins with a fricken' ruler! If those Hobgoblins are 6ft tall then the octopus will ocupy at least a 25ft square (the head was roughly 25ft wide)
I don't know where you get that from. The hobgoblins, on my computer are 8mm tall. The octopus is 24 mm across. That means the octopus' diameter is three times the height of the hobgoblins. Which makes the octopus 18 ft. wide. Which puts it in between Huge and Gargantuan and nowhere near Colossal.

But you don't like using height. So let's use space.

25mm across fits five hobgoblins. If they are squeezed, which is apparent by comparing the space between hobgoblins and the space between Kazumi and Daigo, then 25mm is the equivalent of 12.5', which again is Huge size.

The only way you get 25' across is if you assume the hobgoblins are not squeezed, and then the proportions mean each hobgolin is only 3' tall! (As are Hinjo, Elan, Lien, and the others)


pswbr: A lvl 15 cleric summoning such a powerful monster seems unbalanced.
Even more evidence you're measuring it wrong.

[Wrecan]

Actually, in an attempt to resolve this, I copied the comic into Paint and cut out the Octopus scene and actually counted pixels. Here's what I got:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1/Wrecan/Octopus.jpg

All the characters are 32 pixels high, which is about 6'
The octopus is 84 pixels wide, or about 15.75'

The hobgoblins are therefore squeezed onto the dock, with two of them squeezed into a 6' space, and 5 into a 15.75' space.

[Scarab83]

My feelings about this entire thread can be summed up with one gif (http://i13.tinypic.com/6bk016v.gif).

[mockingbyrd7]

My feelings about this entire thread can be summed up with one gif (http://i13.tinypic.com/6bk016v.gif).

Yaaaaay! Klingons!

[ag30476]

Actually, in an attempt to resolve this, I copied the comic into Paint and cut out the Octopus scene and actually counted pixels.

AWESOME!!!

[GoC]

Actually, in an attempt to resolve this, I copied the comic into Paint and cut out the Octopus scene and actually counted pixels. Here's what I got:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i1/Wrecan/Octopus.jpg

All the characters are 32 pixels high, which is about 6'
The octopus is 84 pixels wide, or about 15.75'

The hobgoblins are therefore squeezed onto the dock, with two of them squeezed into a 6' space, and 5 into a 15.75' space.

Guess you're right.

Special thanks to whoever removed the unfortunate part of my post.

[Porthos]

Or he spent an hour praying for spells between fleeing Soon Kim and assaulting Hinjo's Junk.

Actually....

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells

Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

So even if Redcloak reached the point where he would usually recharge his spells, it still wouldn't have mattered. Unless, of course, he had cast his spells eight hours earlier (and I don't think that much time has passed from Redcloak entering the castle). So he is very likely still low on spells. :smallsmile:

[Ithekro]

A cleric doesn't go down to the docks to sink a ship for fun when he's low on spells. Or at least very low on spells. He may be a half or one-third his full allotment of spells for the day, but that's still a lot of spells out of a level 15 or so goblin. Durkon and Hinjo together probably have a chance against him, at least to the point of calling a draw until help comes from one side or the other. Durkon gets a bonus for hating goblins after all and I'd assume Redcloak gets some kind of bonus for hating humans (or just paladins in general).

[Wrecan]

A cleric doesn't go down to the docks to sink a ship for fun when he's low on spells.
From this strip, apparently he does.

[Scarab83]

"You know, I'm more than a little surprised at the level of resistance they're displaying here... Who would have thought that sinking one little boat of innocent civilians would be so tough?"

He wasn't expecting much trouble at all, so he probably IS low on spells.