Use Magic Device + Knowstones. It's really work???

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

I was in a debate with a friend.
"I'm sorcerer, but learning Bard only spells with UMD + Knowstones."

I went to analyze, this no doubt does not work.

Use Magic Device
Check
You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use the magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or if you were of a different alignment.

Knowstones is not a magical activation item, such as Wands, Staffs and scrolls. So it can not use UMD.
Another obvious problem, even if my DM allowed it, did not happen.
It can simulate being a Bard, but you will not be able to use it as it still does not have Bard Spells slots.
A Gestalt Bard20 / Sorcerer20 can not use Bard spells know with Sorcerer spells slots.





He got angry, how can I convince him that he's wrong?

[Deophaun]

He's not wrong. You need to keep reading:

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner (to emulate a neutral evil alignment in order to keep yourself from being damaged by a book of vile darkness you are carrying when you are not evil, for example), you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
That's how you UMD a knowstone. You emulate the class feature (Bard spellcasting) once per hour, and if you pass your check you can use it, because it says any spontaneous caster can use it as long as it's on your list; which you've just emulated. It just says you can use your spellslots to cast the spell; not that those spellslots must be of a particular class.

And if you want to hinge your argument on "you don't activate it," I direct your attention to the section under the Knowstone's description entitled "activation."

[Cosi]

Interesting note with Knowstones specifically: as written the Knowstone's capabilities include not just knowing, but casting the spell in question, meaning that if your UMD check is big enough you can (per the chalice example in the PHB) emulate not just having but using a class feature. This means that if you can make the entirely reasonable UMD check to emulate a high enough level caster, you can use a Knowstone without expending a spell slot.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Thanks guys

[P.F.]

You might try using the item's actual description, which includes the phrase "Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level."

Of course, this text is included in the section titled "Activation:" which kind of undermines the argument that it isn't an "activation item." Whether or not Use Magic Device would allow you to emulate the class ability of having a spell on your list is perhaps debatable, but strikes me as a weak argument. If allowed, he might need to pass 24 such checks consecutively before the knowstone could attune to him, and another check every hour before using the spell. Anything short of an auto-pass on this UMD is probably more hassle than the item is worth.

Your latter point, that knowing a bard spell doesn't impart the spells per day needed to cast one, seems more promising.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Your latter point, that knowing a bard spell doesn't impart the spells per day needed to cast one, seems more promising.

It's a strong argument, maybe.
He can simulate be a bard, but, he still dont have this spell on your list. Still, no Bard spell per day needed to cast it.
He does not have this spells on his spell list. Even Simulate to be a bard, still not qualify. So it would not work, right?

[Cosi]

Your latter point, that knowing a bard spell doesn't impart the spells per day needed to cast one, seems more promising.

That doesn't mean anything. You emulate "having it on your class list". The Knowstone grants you the ability to cast a spell you do not know, if it is on your class list. If you emulate the "it is on your class list" thing, you can the ability to cast it regardless of whether you are a Sorcerer and it is scorching ray, you are a Bard and it is fireball, or you are a Beguiler and it is raise dead. The alternative reading fundamentally misunderstands the functioning of Use Magic Device.

[ATHATH]

How about a compromise: Your friend dips a level of Bard, then uses Bardblades instead of Knowstones. Alternatively, just let him go into Sublime Chord.

[Segev]

Interesting note with Knowstones specifically: as written the Knowstone's capabilities include not just knowing, but casting the spell in question, meaning that if your UMD check is big enough you can (per the chalice example in the PHB) emulate not just having but using a class feature. This means that if you can make the entirely reasonable UMD check to emulate a high enough level caster, you can use a Knowstone without expending a spell slot.That's...an interesting thought. I'm not sure it holds water. Can you think of another expendable class feature that UMD emulates using in order to get the benefit of a magic item? Can a rogue, for example, UMD a warlock scepter to get an eldritch blast? A pearl of power to actually gain a spell slot with a spell prepared in it? Are there items which would let him emulate the use of Lay On Hands to do something?


It's a strong argument, maybe.
He can simulate be a bard, but, he still dont have this spell on your list. Still, no Bard spell per day needed to cast it.
He does not have this spells on his spell list. Even Simulate to be a bard, still not qualify. So it would not work, right?Actually, having UMD'd the Knowstone, he does have the spell on his spell list.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Actually, having UMD'd the Knowstone, he does have the spell on his spell list.
Even simulate to be a bard, he still has no Bard spell in his list of spells.

It's not enough to be a Bard, he needs "Improvisation" on his spell list.

[Segev]

Even simulate to be a bard, he still has no Bard spell in his list of spells.

It's not enough to be a Bard, he needs "Improvisation" on his spell list.

It's a class feature. He emulated it. So he does, as far as using that Knowstone is concerned.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

It's a class feature. He emulated it. So he does, as far as using that Knowstone is concerned.
"Improvisation" on his spell list, it's not class feature.
I bealive even with UMD, The Sorcerer can't use that.
Ok, it's really need DM approval. I bealive it still dont work.

[Segev]

Improvisation on his spell list, it's not class feature.

Ok, it's really need DM approval. I bealive it still dont work.

"Has the Bard's spell list" is a class feature of Bard. Alternatively, "Has improvisation on his spell list" is a class feature of Bard. Either way, UMD can emulate the class feature in question.

[Cosi]

That's...an interesting thought. I'm not sure it holds water. Can you think of another expendable class feature that UMD emulates using in order to get the benefit of a magic item?

That's not my idea, that's drawn from an example in the PHB. On page 86, under "Emulate A Class Feature", it describes using UMD to active a chalice which converts turn attempts into holy water, without having to possess any turning to begin with. It's fairly stupid, what with it making UMDing some items better than activating them normally, but by RAW it does work.


Can a rogue, for example, UMD a warlock scepter to get an eldritch blast? A pearl of power to actually gain a spell slot with a spell prepared in it? Are there items which would let him emulate the use of Lay On Hands to do something?

Warlock Scepter -- It depends on how you understand the item as functioning. If the activation is part of making your eldritch blast and causes it to be supercharged, a Rogue (or Beguiler, or Bard, or whoever) could use it to make a big eldritch blast a couple of times a day. If the activation is separate, a Rogue could activate it, but would still not have any eldritch blast to boost.
Pearl of Power -- I don't think this works. Having spell slots is a class feature of Wizards (and Druids, and Clerics, and so on), but having expended spell slots is not.
Lay On Hands -- This seems exactly analogous to the Turn Undead example given in the PHB.

[Zanos]

That's...an interesting thought. I'm not sure it holds water. Can you think of another expendable class feature that UMD emulates using in order to get the benefit of a magic item? Can a rogue, for example, UMD a warlock scepter to get an eldritch blast? A pearl of power to actually gain a spell slot with a spell prepared in it? Are there items which would let him emulate the use of Lay On Hands to do something?
The description of UMD says that

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the cleric’s undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check result minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher to succeed.
However, the very next line says that:

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
So if an item requires you to expend a spell slot to power it, you can UMD that. You can UMD a knowstone, but it doesn't bestow any ability to cast spells itself, as expending a spell slot is not part of the items activation. You don't expend a spell slot to cast a spell inside of a knowstone, the knowstone adds to your spells known and you cast it normally.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

"Has the Bard's spell list" is a class feature of Bard. Alternatively, "Has improvisation on his spell list" is a class feature of Bard. Either way, UMD can emulate the class feature in question.

So why did I creat a bard, if he can do all I can. :smallfurious:
Even so, I do not think it's possible to use it.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

So if an item requires you to expend a spell slot to power it, you can UMD that. You can UMD a knowstone, but it doesn't bestow any ability to cast spells itself, as expending a spell slot is not part of the items activation.

I bealive, he's still not able to cast it. Knowstones dont expend spells slot.

[Cosi]

So if an item requires you to expend a spell slot to power it, you can UMD that. You can UMD a knowstone, but it doesn't bestow any ability to cast spells itself, as expending a spell slot is not part of the items activation. Rather, it says you can use your knowledge of the knowstones spell to cast a spell normally.

The text of the Knowstone (or at least, the version I'm looking at), says:


A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells).

The ability to use your spell slots to cast the spell in question is explicitly a function of the Knowstone. Now obviously, that's totally unnecessary, as you can just use your spell slots to cast spells you know, but the fact that it is included makes it a capability of the magic item which you can activate by emulating a class feature, if that is something you happen to want to do.

[Gruftzwerg]

Imho it does NOT WORK and here's why:

- you can emulate that you have a certain class ability/aspect.
- you can not emulate the use of a class ability.

e.g. Turn Undead:
- you can count as having "Turn Undead" and use magic items that give you a new ability without a Turn Undead use.
- items that require you to use Turn Undead to activate them don't work.

back to Knowstones:
- you can UMD that you have casting ability, having spellslots, or that it is a spell of one of your classes spell lists.
- congrats you could now expend a spellslot of the right lvl to cast the spell. But wait, you don't have any spellslots to expend and can't fluke it with UMD, so NO, DOESN'T WORK.


UMD:
UMD usage is just like getting access to somewhere/something that requires a face-check. But that doesn't always involve that you can make use/profit of what you get.
Getting in on a VIP Party will be profitable.
But getting in on a scientific meeting where it is expected that everyone makes a 10 minute long presentation about a specific topic is something else. You could fluke the guy at the door that you are a scientist, but holding a speech about astrophysics is nothing that you can fluke.

[Segev]

Warlock Scepter -- It depends on how you understand the item as functioning. If the activation is part of making your eldritch blast and causes it to be supercharged, a Rogue (or Beguiler, or Bard, or whoever) could use it to make a big eldritch blast a couple of times a day. If the activation is separate, a Rogue could activate it, but would still not have any eldritch blast to boost.
Pearl of Power -- I don't think this works. Having spell slots is a class feature of Wizards (and Druids, and Clerics, and so on), but having expended spell slots is not.
I think the Knowstone is more akin to these two.


The description of UMD says that...if an item requires you to expend a spell slot to power it, you can UMD that. You can UMD a knowstone, but it doesn't bestow any ability to cast spells itself, as expending a spell slot is not part of the items activation. You don't expend a spell slot to cast a spell inside of a knowstone, the knowstone adds to your spells known and you cast it normally.(Sorry for the paraphrasing, but I didn't want to have missing quotes obscure the meaning of your post.)

I think this is in line with my understanding of how UMD works with magic items. So you can't use a Knowstone without expending a spell slot you really have; the UMD check only lets you count as knowing the spell for purposes of casting it with your spell slots. Like the warlock scepter or the pearl of power, the knowstone doesn't cast the spell for you; it only lets you use the spell slot with a spell you wouldn't otherwise have available.


So why did I creat a bard, if he can do all I can. :smallfurious:
Even so, I do not think it's possible to use it.He can't. He can buy a magic item to give himself one spell per magic item. You can also buy that magic item, by the by, and use it without even UMDing it. You can buy Knowstones of Sorcerer spells, too, and UMD them. No amount of UMD he uses can give him Bardic Music to actually use; he can only activate magic items as if he had it.


If you would please spell out exactly what he's doing that you feel is stepping on your toes, we can identify whether that's legitimate or not, and help you find areas where he can't copy you. Also, even if he CAN doesn't mean that he SHOULD, if it's stepping on your toes in the game. But before you pull that grenade out, I strongly suggest you let us help you analyze the situation to see if you can shine without telling him not to do something.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Imho it does NOT WORK and here's why:

back to Knowstones:
- you can UMD that you have casting ability, having spellslots, or that it is a spell of one of your classes spell lists.
- congrats you could now expend a spellslot of the right lvl to cast the spell. But wait, you don't have any spellslots to expend and can't fluke it with UMD, so NO, DOESN'T WORK.


That's right. My DM said it.

[Cosi]

items that require you to use Turn Undead to activate them don't work.

So to be clear, you think the example in the PHB where you explicitly can do exactly that is what, a lie put there to trick us into straying from the light of truth?


I think this is in line with my understanding of how UMD works with magic items. So you can't use a Knowstone without expending a spell slot you really have; the UMD check only lets you count as knowing the spell for purposes of casting it with your spell slots. Like the warlock scepter or the pearl of power, the knowstone doesn't cast the spell for you; it only lets you use the spell slot with a spell you wouldn't otherwise have available.

That would be the sane way to do things, but that is not how the Knowstone works. The Knowstone's capabilities include the casting of the spell. As I've noted, it doesn't need to do that, but the fact that it does pretty solidly makes the act of casting a part of activating the item.

[ATHATH]

So why did I creat a bard, if he can do all I can. :smallfurious:
Even so, I do not think it's possible to use it.
Nah, he can't do everything that you can better than you can until he dips into Heartfire Fanner.

((I suppose that he could also do that via Prestige Bard (or something else), but Heartfire Fanner really rubs it in.))

[Karl Aegis]

Be a warmage. Use Magic Device DC #ERROR to emulate a class feature "Has this spell casting list". Do it for every class. Congratulations, you can now cast every spell from every list spontaneously for an hour and failing the check every hour doesn't have consequences because you can just do it again!

Of course, nobody would ever allow this to happen, but it does use the same exact logic as adding inaccessible spells to your spells known with knowstones.

[Cosi]

Be a warmage. Use Magic Device DC #ERROR to emulate a class feature "Has this spell casting list". Do it for every class. Congratulations, you can now cast every spell from every list spontaneously for an hour and failing the check every hour doesn't have consequences because you can just do it again!

Of course, nobody would ever allow this to happen, but it does use the same exact logic as adding inaccessible spells to your spells known with knowstones.

Yes, because emulating a class feature for the purpose of activating a magic item is the same thing as having a class feature.

I don't know what point you think you're making, but I assume you think it's very clever.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Yes, because emulating a class feature for the purpose of activating a magic item is the same thing as having a class feature.

Yes, but, UMD dont allow expend bard spell slots to cast it.

He want take "Improvisation" and " Nixies Grace". It will be impossible deal with him...
Maybe, my party try kill him...

[Karl Aegis]

Yes, but, UMD dont allow expend bard spell slots to cast it.

He want take "Improvisation" and " Nixies Grace". It will be impossible deal with him...
Maybe, my party try kill him...

Just Use Magic Device to emulate a class feature "has those spells on their class list" to learn those spells at level-up. No problem there, right?

[Cosi]

Just Use Magic Device to emulate a class feature "has those spells on their class list" to learn those spells at level-up. No problem there, right?

Why on earth would that work? Is leveling up a magic item? How do you think any of this works?

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Just Use Magic Device to emulate a class feature "has those spells on their class list" to learn those spells at level-up. No problem there, right?
Bard max 6th level spells and slow progression
He's alread Incantatrix 7. It's problematic.

[ATHATH]

Yes, but, UMD dont allow expend bard spell slots to cast it.

He want take "Improvisation" and " Nixies Grace". It will be impossible deal with him...
Maybe, my party try kill him...
Stop right there. OOC problems should be solved OOC. Just CALMLY explain to him in front of the rest of the table why you feel like he's overshadowing your character, and try to reach an agreement that will be acceptable for both of you. Your friend probably doesn't realize that he's upsetting you.

Killing him will probably just encourage him to bring in an even stronger character, and will likely solve nothing.

[Rhyltran]

Just Use Magic Device to emulate a class feature "has those spells on their class list" to learn those spells at level-up. No problem there, right?

It doesn't work like that.


Stop right there. OOC problems should be solved OOC. Just CALMLY explain to him in front of the rest of the table why you feel like he's overshadowing your character, and try to reach an agreement that will be acceptable for both of you. Your friend probably doesn't realize that he's upsetting you.

Killing him will probably just encourage him to bring in an even stronger character, and will likely solve nothing.

Or make him simply not play with them. I certainly wouldn't. If someone had a problem with one of my characters and thought the solution was to kill my character instead of talk to me like reasonable people? I'd up and leave.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

I'm worried because, our table is BR, and there is a BR community on facebook, encouraged by "Hygor Haas = Lord Drako". The sorcerer on my Table is trying to copy his tactics. This is breaking the game. Lasts adventure, He's acquired Arcane Fusion and is much stronger than the others. My DM is excellent, but he does not give limits. It allows the character to become very strong and if you die, you leave the table and another player enters.(High Rotation Players)
This Sorcerer has already killed 2 and I think he wants to kill me ....
That's why I'm trying to compete with him.
If my character die, I will play only 2 or 3 months later... Please help me.

[Zanos]

The ability to use your spell slots to cast the spell in question is explicitly a function of the Knowstone.
No, the knowstone allows you to cast the spell "normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)." It's one capability, not two separate ones.

[ATHATH]

I'm worried because, our table is BR, and there is a BR community on facebook, encouraged by "Hygor Haas = Lord Drako". The sorcerer on my Table is trying to copy his tactics. This is breaking the game. Lasts adventure, He's acquired Arcane Fusion and is much stronger than the others. My DM is excellent, but he does not give limits. It allows the character to become very strong and if you die, you leave the table and another player enters.(High Rotation Players)
This Sorcerer has already killed 2 and I think he wants to kill me ....
That's why I'm trying to compete with him.
If my character die, I will play only 2 or 3 months later... Please help me.
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Mother-Of-God.jpg

You know about Lord_Drako's legendary antics (and those of his many, many alternate accounts that he keeps creating to get around being banned from here) on these very forums, right?

So, this guy does know that bringing in high-PO/TO characters into a normal game and murdering other PCs' characters are very bad things to do, right? If not, explain to him why what he is doing is wrong (morally, not rules-wise). If he knows full-well that what he's doing is wrong/bad, then try to convince the DM to kick him (showing him the nutjob things that Lord_Drako has done and that your friend is trying to emulate him might help). If the DM refuses... send us your friend's character build (including what buffs he typically has up and what spells he knows).

Methinks it's time for a witch-hunt.

[Psyren]

However, the very next line says that:

"This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

So if an item requires you to expend a spell slot to power it, you can UMD that. You can UMD a knowstone, but it doesn't bestow any ability to cast spells itself, as expending a spell slot is not part of the items activation. You don't expend a spell slot to cast a spell inside of a knowstone, the knowstone adds to your spells known and you cast it normally.

Precisely this. You can use the Knowstone as if you had that class feature. You can't actually use that class feature iself. So the Knowstone successfully activates, and imparts to you a spell that you have no way to use (unless you have the class feature some other way.)

[Cosi]

No, the knowstone allows you to cast the spell "normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)." It's one capability, not two separate ones.

That seems like an argument that the only possible use of UMD on the Knowstone is for no-slot spells. If you believe that the capability of a Knowstone is that it can be activated to cast the spell, you can't UMD it to know the spell, but you can totally UMD it to cast the spell for free.

[ATHATH]

Guys, can we stop arguing about the legality of using UMD on Knowstones for one moment? I think we're ignoring the bigger issue at hand.

[Psyren]

Guys, can we stop arguing about the legality of using UMD on Knowstones for one moment? I think we're ignoring the bigger issue at hand.

So you want to stop talking about Use Magic Device and Knowstones in a thread titled "Use Magic Device + Knowstones?" :smallconfused:

[Cosi]

Guys, can we stop arguing about the legality of using UMD on Knowstones for one moment? I think we're ignoring the bigger issue at hand.

I mean, I thought the dude was LordDrako. The posts sound similar, and the topics are basically the same. I though he wanted to win some particular point about Knowstones before going back to the Sorcerer Tiering thread. If you look at his other posts, he post a couple of Drako-isms (the thing about greater arcane fusion -> celerity is copypasted from a Drako rant, he believes the same thing about not being able to emulate meta-magic'd spells).

I'm not really surprised the dude has some prior experience with Drako.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Mother-Of-God.jpg

You know about Lord_Drako's legendary antics (and those of his many, many alternate accounts that he keeps creating to get around being banned from here) on these very forums, right?

So, this guy does know that bringing in high-PO/TO characters into a normal game and murdering other PCs' characters are very bad things to do, right? If not, explain to him why what he is doing is wrong (morally, not rules-wise). If he knows full-well that what he's doing is wrong/bad, then try to convince the DM to kick him (showing him the nutjob things that Lord_Drako has done and that your friend is trying to emulate him might help). If the DM refuses... send us your friend's character build (including what buffs he typically has up and what spells he knows).

Methinks it's time for a witch-hunt.



Man, this is problematic, because my table has 8 players and 16 more wanting to enter. So if you die, there is no turning back.
So I created a bard, but not to be optimized. So this Sorcerer started to get very strong, I do not know how !! But he has UMD in his skills. WTF, it's possible?
He is using 9th scrolls in the most difficult hours. He killed 2 characters and got his golds. He's got lots of golds.
It does not let you know your spells know and does not reveal your alignment.
I'm suspicious that he wants to kill me. But I'm allied with an Archivist and a Barbarian, it looks like he's planning something.

If I die, only 3 months later to return to play ...
What do I do?

[ATHATH]

I mean, I thought the dude was LordDrako. The posts sound similar, and the topics are basically the same. I though he wanted to win some particular point about Knowstones before going back to the Sorcerer Tiering thread. If you look at his other posts, he post a couple of Drako-isms (the thing about greater arcane fusion -> celerity is copypasted from a Drako rant, he believes the same thing about not being able to emulate meta-magic'd spells).

I'm not really surprised the dude has some prior experience with Drako.
Wait, you think that the Sr Gaspar Livin is Lord_Drako?

[Karl Aegis]

Well, since they need to make a Use Magic Device check every hour and a Use Magic Device check interrupts your 8 hours of rest before regaining spell slots they should lose access to the spells when they regain spell slots and have to attune to the knowstone again. The knowstone specifically doesn't add the spell to your class list so it can't be used to qualify to use a knowstone. So they either have to choose to have the spell on their spells known or the ability to regain their spell slots. Should solve the problem.

[Segev]

The Knowstones, by what's been quoted here, let you treat a spell inscribed on them as if it were a spell you knew as a spontaneous caster. They don't let you cast the spell via them. They let you KNOW the spell via them, and as a known spell, cast it from one of your spell slots.

They do not require you to have the right class's spell slots, only spontaneous slots of the appropriate level.

So you can UMD a Knowstone for another class's spells, even if they're not on your class list, and you can use your own spontaneous slot(s) of the appropriate level to cast it.

UMD does not let you use a class feature you do not have. It lets you activate a magic item as if you had that class feature. A warmage cannot UMD to use his native spell slots for spells belonging to other classes. Even if he could, the DC would be the minimum level in the emulated class at which the spell can be cast, plus 20. So for a 3rd level wizard spell, it would be DC 25. Not DC #ERROR. But that's irrelevant, because UMD doesn't let you use your class features as if you had other class features. It only lets you use magic items as if you had class features required to use them.

As for the other player overshadowing the OP, the context given suggests that this problem is an OOC problem and should be taken up with that player, the DM, and the table at large.

[ATHATH]

Man, this is problematic, because my table has 8 players and 16 more wanting to enter. So if you die, there is no turning back.
So I created a bard, but not to be optimized. So this Sorcerer started to get very strong, I do not know how !! But he has UMD in his skills. WTF, it's possible?
He is using 9th scrolls in the most difficult hours. He killed 2 characters and got his golds. He's got lots of golds.
It does not let you know your spells know and does not reveal your alignment.
I'm suspicious that he wants to kill me. But I'm allied with an Archivist and a Barbarian, it looks like he's planning something.

If I die, only 3 months later to return to play ...
What do I do?
Talk with the DM and the Sorcerer player first, then come back to us. We don't want to escalate the conflict if it's avoidable.

[Zanos]

That seems like an argument that the only possible use of UMD on the Knowstone is for no-slot spells. If you believe that the capability of a Knowstone is that it can be activated to cast the spell, you can't UMD it to know the spell, but you can totally UMD it to cast the spell for free.
Treating a spell as if it was among your known spells for the purposes of casting doesn't help you if you can't cast spells.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Treating a spell as if it was among your known spells for the purposes of casting doesn't help you if you can't cast spells.


Yeah, I that's true!

Knowstones dont expend spells slots, they cant cast it.

[druid zook]

Just to be clear on Use Magic Device, the Rules Compendium states on page 86: "If you're trained in this skill, you can use it to read spells and activate magic items as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a magic item as part of the action required to activate that item...."

Eight paragraphs later: "Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result -20. This skill doesn't let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets activate items as if you had that class feature. ..."

[Segev]

Okay, why do you believe this player is out to kill your PC? And why is the DM letting him bully the table by killing other PCs to take their stuff? This sounds like more of a competitive game of murderball than a D&D adventure. Frankly, I'd look for a different game. If the DM is allowing this nonsense, he's not a good DM. Unless "backstabbing and killing each other" is the premise of the game.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Talk with the DM and the Sorcerer player first, then come back to us. We don't want to escalate the conflict if it's avoidable.

I alread do it... But, My DM allow everything!! My DM dont allow any infinite loop or expensive itens.
While large table, he dont worry if anyone died.

[zergling.exe]

I alread do it... But, My DM allow everything!! My DM dont allow any infinite loop or expensive itens.
While large table, he dont worry if anyone died.

Convince the entire group of players that that person is a teamkiller, then make your own game from the players. That should get the DM to take notice of the problem.

[Cosi]

Wait, you think that the Sr Gaspar Livin is Lord_Drako?

Now, I don't know. But look at his first couple of posts. There's some definite Drako stuff in there, and IIRC, last time Drako was banned was in an argument involving Knowstones and Spell Slots not dissimilar to the one here.


Well, since they need to make a Use Magic Device check every hour and a Use Magic Device check interrupts your 8 hours of rest before regaining spell slots they should lose access to the spells when they regain spell slots and have to attune to the knowstone again.

I see no indication that the Knowstone ever becomes "un-attuned", or that you need to be able to use a Knowstone to attune it. Worst case, you wait a day to attune all your Knowstones once, then you're set forever. Best case, Knowstones automatically attune and you just need UMD to use them.


The Knowstones, by what's been quoted here, let you treat a spell inscribed on them as if it were a spell you knew as a spontaneous caster. They don't let you cast the spell via them. They let you KNOW the spell via them, and as a known spell, cast it from one of your spell slots.


A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells).

That seems pretty clear on the whole "granting you the ability to cast the spell with your slots" thing.


UMD does not let you use a class feature you do not have. It lets you activate a magic item as if you had that class feature. A warmage cannot UMD to use his native spell slots for spells belonging to other classes.

Yes he very explicitly can, with a Knowstone. There might be ambiguity about the no-slot Knowstone, but the effect of the Knowstone is to let you use your spell slots to cast the spell as if you knew it. To say that doesn't work for Warmages is to say that spells cannot be added to spell lists by any mechanism, which is plainly ridiculous.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Okay, why do you believe this player is out to kill your PC? And why is the DM letting him bully the table by killing other PCs to take their stuff? This sounds like more of a competitive game of murderball than a D&D adventure. Frankly, I'd look for a different game. If the DM is allowing this nonsense, he's not a good DM. Unless "backstabbing and killing each other" is the premise of the game.

Dude, he's the best DM I've ever seen. But it was clear that it will allow for any kind of Practical Optimization. But everything you do has consequences. There is a huge list of players wanting to play with it. Just because he's good.
I've never had so much fun. I want to stay alive.
The sorcerer want kill me. Because I am Lawful good, maybe he's evil.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Convince the entire group of players that that person is a teamkiller, then make your own game from the players. That should get the DM to take notice of the problem.

Thanks, I will try kill him!


WTF!!! I am not Lord Drako! He always creating Sorcerer Guides on BR community. But, it's breaking my Game!
Why he was banned?

[zergling.exe]

Yes he very explicitly can, with a Knowstone. There might be ambiguity about the no-slot Knowstone, but the effect of the Knowstone is to let you use your spell slots to cast the spell as if you knew it. To say that doesn't work for Warmages is to say that spells cannot be added to spell lists by any mechanism, which is plainly ridiculous.


I believe that is an argument against a warmage using UMD to be able to spontaneously cast any spell off (blank) spell list, not the inability to use knowstones.


Thanks, I will try kill him!

That's not what I'm saying. I'm telling you to get all the players to boycott this sorcerer. It works much better in the long run if you don't have to worry about them anymore. Otherwise they'll just come back with a stronger character later on.

[Rhyltran]

Thanks, I will try kill him!


WTF!!! I am not Lord Drako! He always creating Sorcerer Guides on BR community. But, it's breaking my Game!
Why he was banned?

Because "His" builds don't actually fully work, he keeps trying to come back after being banned, and he continuously breaks forum rules.

[ATHATH]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm telling you to get all the players to boycott this sorcerer. It works much better in the long run if you don't have to worry about them anymore. Otherwise they'll just come back with a stronger character later on.
Seconding this. Besides, you will all get slaughtered if you try to take the Sorcerer in a head-on fight.

[Psyren]

So the only descriptions for Knowstones I could find were in Dragon Magazine - are they actually in any 1st-party published source?

Anyway - I think the key language is here:


A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)

The operative word there is "normally" - meaning you bypass the "spells known" requirement, but you must meet all the other normal requirements to cast the spell. For example, you couldn't cast the spell in an Antimagic Field, because that normally prevents spellcasting. Similarly, you can't cast a spell that isn't on your spell list even if you know it, because that is not normal. If you ignore that qualifier, then you can cast that spell in any condition - dead magic, antimagic, underwater, vacuum of space, paralyzed, while concentrating on another spell, you name it, because the item would merely say "you can cast the spell" with no qualifiers. But they did include a qualifier, so you are subject to the normal rules for casting a spell - which require that a spell be both known and on your list, that you can provide the necessary components, that you are on a plane that allows spellcasting etc.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Because "His" builds don't actually fully work, he keeps trying to come back after being banned, and he continuously breaks forum rules.

He's always your builds on BR community, but I never read that, The sorcerer is trying copy your tatics. So help me counter it, if he's try kill me. Almost all Brazilian Mages use Lord Drako's tatics.


I alread know, Knowstones + UMD dont work. My Argument is strong!

[Cosi]

I believe that is an argument against a warmage using UMD to be able to spontaneously cast any spell off (blank) spell list, not the inability to use knowstones.

That seems excessively complicated for an argument that boils down to "obviously that doesn't work, spells known is a class feature not a magic item".


Similarly, you can't cast a spell that isn't on your spell list even if you know it, because that is not normal.

There's nothing that indicates this to be the case. You can cast spells you know. What emulating a class feature does in the context of a Knowstone is allow you to activate it (adding a spell to your list of spells known) despite not having the requisite class feature (having the spell on your class list).


If you ignore that qualifier, then you can cast that spell in any condition - dead magic, antimagic, underwater, vacuum of space, paralyzed, while concentrating on another spell, you name it, because the item would merely say "you can cast the spell" with no qualifiers.

Except that "cast a spell" is a defined game action that can be used to defined effect under defined circumstances. Do abilities that say "you may make an attack" allow you to attack targets that are outside your reach, or attack during others turns, or attack without expending an action? No they do not, because there is a defined "attack" for them to plug into.


the normal rules for casting a spell - which require that a spell be both known and on your list

If we believe this, it is impossible for any mechanism to add spells to any list. Unless, I suppose, we accept that all such mechanisms but Knowstones have a triple secret override for the double secret rule that we introduced because we didn't like the actual rules for Knowstones. FFS, under this interpretation, Chameleons can't cast spells, as they do not have a spell list (they cast spells from other spell lists).

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Seconding this. Besides, you will all get slaughtered if you try to take the Sorcerer in a head-on fight.


If he wants to kill me because I'm Lawful Good, can not I do anything? Do not you even kill him while he sleeps?
Maybe a divination....? Suggestions?

[Segev]

That seems pretty clear on the whole "granting you the ability to cast the spell with your slots" thing.Right. You use a Knowstone of (say) arcane fusion on your Bard, via UMD, and you can now expend your Bard spell slots to cast arcane fusion. But you can't UMD the Knowstone to cast it without expending a slot, because the Knowstone doesn't say, "By expending a spell slot to activate this item, you cast X spell." It instead says, "If this spell is on your class list, you can treat it as one of your spells known." (I'm paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure that's the denotation.)



Yes he very explicitly can, with a Knowstone. There might be ambiguity about the no-slot Knowstone, but the effect of the Knowstone is to let you use your spell slots to cast the spell as if you knew it. To say that doesn't work for Warmages is to say that spells cannot be added to spell lists by any mechanism, which is plainly ridiculous.

I believe that is an argument against a warmage using UMD to be able to spontaneously cast any spell off (blank) spell list, not the inability to use knowstones.zergling.exe is correct: I was not saying that warmages can't use Knowstones to cast spells off of other lists. They very much can. I was arguing against the poster who tried to claim that the same arguments which let a Bard UMD a Knowstone of a non-Bard spell would let a Warmage use UMD to cast any spell in the game with his native spellcasting.

That is not true, because UMD doesn't alter the Warmage's own class feature, nor does it let him use another class's feature(s) with his own. It only would let him emulate other classes' features for the purpose of using a magic item. So UMD can let him use a Knowstone of a spell on another class's list, and then cast it as if it were one of his spells known, but it still takes the Knowstone of that specific spell to do this.




"My argument is strong" is a worrisome speech pattern, given past encounters with Lord_Drako. That said, it could just be an artifact of ESL with the same source language.

If all Brazillian players use Lord_Drako's methods, then they're likely all breaking the rules on a few levels, because Lord_Drako's builds broke several rules.

Using Knowstones via UMD for off-list spell access is, however, totally legal.

If you get killed, though, I suggest the following: Tell all the players waiting in the wings that this sorcerer player is out to murder every PC he can so that he can take their stuff and increase his own power. Warn them to prepare for heavy, high-optimization PvP, and to plan to band together with other players so that they can take out this sorcerer PC if he sneezes wrong.

Other than that, talk to the DM about the player's attitude being one that is turning the DM's game from a fun one into an anxiety-inducing cesspool of bad attitude.

[druid zook]

I confess that I don't know who Drako is, nor the source book for knowstones.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Using Knowstones via UMD for off-list spell access is, however, totally legal..
It's legal. But still cant cast that spells normally, no spell slot avaiable.

[Cosi]

Right. You use a Knowstone of (say) arcane fusion on your Bard, via UMD, and you can now expend your Bard spell slots to cast arcane fusion. But you can't UMD the Knowstone to cast it without expending a slot, because the Knowstone doesn't say, "By expending a spell slot to activate this item, you cast X spell." It instead says, "If this spell is on your class list, you can treat it as one of your spells known." (I'm paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure that's the denotation.)

It says you can "cast the spell", not just "treat it as one of your spells known". To get just the ability to add it to your list, you don't ever need to mention casting it at all. You can cast spells that are on your list of spells known.


I confess that I don't know who Drako is, nor the source book for knowstones.

Knowstones are from some issue of Dragon Magazine.

Lord Drako is a banned poster who periodically makes alts here to yell incoherently about the power of Sorcerers.

[Psyren]

Using Knowstones via UMD for off-list spell access is, however, totally legal.

I still don't think it is. For example, the Bard's "Spells" class feature says:



Spells
A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

Sorcerer spells, like Arcane Fusion, are not on that list - therefore the Bard cannot cast them, even with a Knowstone, because the Knowstone does not give him the "Spells (Sorcerer)" class feature to use. UMD'ing the Knowstone lets him know that spell, but it still does not make it a Bard spell.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

If you get killed, though, I suggest the following: Tell all the players waiting in the wings that this sorcerer player is out to murder every PC he can so that he can take their stuff and increase his own power. Warn them to prepare for heavy, high-optimization PvP, and to plan to band together with other players so that they can take out this sorcerer PC if he sneezes wrong.



It's a ****ing Evil Aligment Players. It's a cancer!

[Segev]

It's legal. But still cant cast that spells normally, no spell slot avaiable.All you need is a spell slot, not a spell slot from "the appropriate class." If you have a spell slot of the right level (say, from being a Bard), the Knowstone of the Sorcerer spell will let you cast it.


It says you can "cast the spell", not just "treat it as one of your spells known". To get just the ability to add it to your list, you don't ever need to mention casting it at all. You can cast spells that are on your list of spells known.It says you can cast the spell normally. Not that you can expend a spell slot to have the item cast the spell. It would need the latter wording to parallel the "use turn attempts to make holy water" magic item example. This is closer to the "use a warlock scepter to empower your eldritch blast" example, or the "use a pearl of power to recover a spell slot" example. You gain a use for the thing, but you don't gain the thing from the item itself.

i.e., the Knowstone gives you a new use for the spell slot (a spell you didn't previously know), but it doesn't cast it for you. It lets YOU cast the spell, and specifies that you do so "normally," which means you've got to have the slot to cast it from.

[JBPuffin]

I'm waiting for the big reveal at the end that closes the thread...it's like a Scooby Doo mystery.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Sorcerer spells, like Arcane Fusion, are not on that list - therefore the Bard cannot cast them, even with a Knowstone, because the Knowstone does not give him the "Spells (Sorcerer)" class feature to use. UMD'ing the Knowstone lets him know that spell, but it still does not make it a Bard spell.

That's right. Sorcerer can have knowledge, but, cant cast it because dont have Bard Spell Slots.
UMD dont allow use class features. Including Spells slots.

[Cosi]

Sorcerer spells, like Arcane Fusion, are not on that list - therefore the Bard cannot cast them, even with a Knowstone, because the Knowstone does not give him the "Spells (Sorcerer)" class feature to use. UMD'ing the Knowstone lets him know that spell, but it still does not make it a Bard spell.

This interpretation breaks unrelated game elements. For example, suppose that we believe this, and Frank the Wizard wishes to become a Wyrm Wizard. Consider the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research class feature:


One of the greatest advantages that you gain from consulting draconic lore is the ability to unlock magical secrets forbidden to other wizards. Starting at 2nd level, select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast. You can add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list as a spell of the same level; all other aspects of the spell remain unchanged. At every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain the knowledge and use of one additional spell in this manner.

The relevant text has been bolded.

Under Psyren's proposed interpretation, we are left with two possible views of this text:

1. The spell is added to your personal spell list. In this case, the class feature has no effect. Adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's class list does not add it to the Wizard class list, and Frank remains sadly unable to cast the new spell.
2. The spell is added to the Wizard list. In this case, Frank may cast his new spell, but so may any other Wizard in the game.

Similar issues arise with Rings of Theurgy, Prestige Domains, Advanced Learning, Sand Shaper, or any other rules element that attempts to add spells to a character's list. Under this ruling, all such elements must either make their new spells available to all characters of a particular class, or none of them.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

All you need is a spell slot, not a spell slot from "the appropriate class." If you have a spell slot of the right level (say, from being a Bard), the Knowstone of the Sorcerer spell will let you cast it.




IT'S OBVIUS "THE APPROPRIATE CLASS" !
It's say you must have it on your spell list and cast it normally! You cant normally because you dont have APPROPRIATE spell slots!
Also, UMD dont allow you use simulate class feature. Cant cast Bard Spells.

It's so obvius!

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

This interpretation breaks unrelated game elements. For example, suppose that we believe this, and Frank the Wizard wishes to become a Wyrm Wizard. Consider the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research class feature:



The relevant text has been bolded.

Under Psyren's proposed interpretation, we are left with two possible views of this text:

1. The spell is added to your personal spell list. In this case, the class feature has no effect. Adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's class list does not add it to the Wizard class list, and Frank remains sadly unable to cast the new spell.
2. The spell is added to the Wizard list. In this case, Frank may cast his new spell, but so may any other Wizard in the game.

Similar issues arise with Rings of Theurgy, Prestige Domains, Advanced Learning, Sand Shaper, or any other rules element that attempts to add spells to a character's list. Under this ruling, all such elements must either make their new spells available to all characters of a particular class, or none of them.


It's a ****ing problem!! I try use Arcane Fusion via Runestaves!! But my DM disallowed! Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spell know.... And I dont know Sorcerer Spells...
Following your logic, Bards cant cast Arcane Fusion Spell.
Even if I try take Arcane Fusion, my DM Disallowed.
It's ridiculous.

[Psyren]

Responding to the part Gaspar quoted - I don't see why adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's spell list leaves Frank the Wizard unable to cast it. That is textbook specific trumping general, and it is specifically adding the spell to Frank's specific list. Open and shut.

Knowstones do not mention your list at all - so you can use them if the spell is already on your list, and if not, not.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Responding to the part Gaspar quoted - I don't see why adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's spell list leave Frank the Wizard unable to cast it. That is textbook specific trumping general, and it is specifically adding the spell to your list. Open and shut.

Knowstones do not mention your list at all - so you can use them if the spell is already on your list, and if not, not.

Also, UMD dont allow USE simulate class feature. So, Can't cast Knowstone spell.

[Cosi]

Responding to the part Gaspar quoted - I don't see why adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's spell list leave Frank the Wizard unable to cast it. That is textbook specific trumping general, and it is specifically adding the spell to your list. Open and shut.

But this is not consistent with your interpretation! You made a very specific claim, and that claim was in the context of class spell lists, not individual ones. At no point in your proposed set up is legality checked against an individual's list. It is checked first, always, and only against the class list. If your ruling is to be used, Wyrm Wizard must make its new spells available to all Wizards, or none of them. There can be no character specific lists under your rule.

In fact, Wyrm Wizard does not offer any dispensation in terms of casting. The presumption is that putting something on your individual list is sufficient to allow you to cast it, without any reference to the broader class list.

[Psyren]

I don't suppose someone would mind quoting him so I can reply?


Also, UMD dont allow USE simulate class feature. So, Can't cast Knowstone spell.

Indeed. The Bard's spells class feature says nothing about sorcerer spells.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

But this is not consistent with your interpretation! You made a very specific claim, and that claim was in the context of class spell lists, not individual ones. At no point in your proposed set up is legality checked against an individual's list. It is checked first, always, and only against the class list. If your ruling is to be used, Wyrm Wizard must make its new spells available to all Wizards, or none of them. There can be no character specific lists under your rule.

In fact, Wyrm Wizard does not offer any dispensation in terms of casting. The presumption is that putting something on your individual list is sufficient to allow you to cast it, without any reference to the broader class list.

Cosi, your arguments dont hold water.

[icefractal]

- you can count as having "Turn Undead" and use magic items that give you a new ability without a Turn Undead use.
- items that require you to use Turn Undead to activate them don't work. Incorrect. That's exactly what the example from the PHB explicitly says you can do.

Now - is that PHB example a bad precedent? Yes. Does it open up really unbalanced territory like arguably making Knowstones and Runestaves into infinite-use items for people with UMD? Yes. Would it be a good idea to house-rule that usage away? Yes. Is it RAW anyway? Yes.

Likewise with Knowstones, while UMD to use them this way might be unbalancing, I can't see any interpretation that makes sense to deny it. You have to resort to stretched readings that make the item not function at all, or other things in the game not function at all, and it doesn't seem very plausible.


And for what - so you can try to preserve balance while sticking exactly to the RAW? That's an impossible goal. There are a lot of things that totally shatter the game if you go strictly RAW, nothing banned. Your options:
A) Ban a ton of things.
B) Ban a few things, mildly house-rule some others.
C) Have a completely unbalanced game where characters can become arbitrarily powerful if they feel like it.

It sounds like the GM in question is going with C. In that case, just use one of the many game-shattering abilities available. He'll either change his mind or you'll be arbitrarily powerful as well.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the slightly expanded spell list is not what's making the Sorcerer overwhelming here. The fact that he's using Arcane Fusion loops and has substantially more wealth than the rest is probably a much bigger factor.

[Cosi]

I agree with much of what icefractal is saying. Lots of things are broken, we should accept that and try to fix them, rather than breaking the rest of the game to make them not work (remember when Psyren argued that wish wasn't broken because ice assassins are immune to all mental control?).


I don't suppose someone would mind quoting him so I can reply?

Engaging in this way really makes it look like you're arguing in bad faith. If my points are worth engaging, take me off your ignore list. If they aren't, stop replying to them.

[AnachroNinja]

Responding to the part Gaspar quoted - I don't see why adding a spell to Frank the Wizard's spell list leaves Frank the Wizard unable to cast it. That is textbook specific trumping general, and it is specifically adding the spell to Frank's specific list. Open and shut.

Knowstones do not mention your list at all - so you can use them if the spell is already on your list, and if not, not.

I unfortunately have to agree with Cosi, your stated claim seemed to be that Bards can't cast any spell that's not on the bard spell list because their spell casting class feature only allows them to cast spells off the bard list. Either that is a real limitation, and no one can every cast spells that aren't on their class list, or you can cast any spell that is added to your individual spell list.

Pretty much one way or the other.

[Segev]

It's a ****ing problem!! I try use Arcane Fusion via Runestaves!! But my DM disallowed! Arcane Fusion require Sorcerer Spell know.... And I dont know Sorcerer Spells...
Following your logic, Bards cant cast Arcane Fusion Spell.
Even if I try take Arcane Fusion, my DM Disallowed.
It's ridiculous.

Then for your game, if your DM is consistent, sure, the Knowstones can't be used to UMD an out-of-class spell onto your known list. Note that this is a house rule, but for the game you're in, the house rule applies, so you should be good, here.

[Psyren]

I unfortunately have to agree with Cosi, your stated claim seemed to be that Bards can't cast any spell that's not on the bard spell list because their spell casting class feature only allows them to cast spells off the bard list. Either that is a real limitation, and no one can every cast spells that aren't on their class list, or you can cast any spell that is added to your individual spell list.

Pretty much one way or the other.

But those other methods (Wyrm Wizard, Sand Shaper, etc) ARE adding it to your list, and they specifically say they are. Can you show me where Knowstone does the same?


Then for your game, if your DM is consistent, sure, the Knowstones can't be used to UMD an out-of-class spell onto your known list. Note that this is a house rule, but for the game you're in, the house rule applies, so you should be good, here.

The condescending "I disagree with your reading of the RAW therefore it's a houserule" really isn't needed here.

[AnachroNinja]

But those other methods (Wyrm Wizard, Sand Shaper, etc) ARE adding it to your list, and they specifically say they are. Can you show me where Knowstone does the same?



The condescending "I disagree with your reading of the RAW therefore it's a houserule" really isn't needed here.

But they don't add the spell to the BARD spell list so based on the argument you made, anyone using the bard class feature to cast spells still couldn't use those spells.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Then for your game, if your DM is consistent, sure, the Knowstones can't be used to UMD an out-of-class spell onto your known list. Note that this is a house rule, but for the game you're in, the house rule applies, so you should be good, here.

My DM disallowed Knowstones + UMD and Arcane Fusion work only with Sorcerers or Creatures that know Sorcerer Spells(Like Dragons). He claim it's following RAW.

Knowstones + UMD, its controversial, but he follow up to balance the game. But, the sorcerer will do your arguments. So, i need be prepared to do solid arguments too.

[Psyren]

But they don't add the spell to the BARD spell list so based on the argument you made, anyone using the bard class feature to cast spells still couldn't use those spells.

But they are added to YOUR list, you Bard/Wyrm Wizard named Frank, you.

Just like Elminster researching a custom spell does not automatically mean every wizard in FR wakes up in the morning to find it in their spellbook.

[Cosi]

But those other methods (Wyrm Wizard, Sand Shaper, etc) ARE adding it to your list, and they specifically say they are. Can you show me where Knowstone does the same?

Ah, exactly! Your list. Not your class' list. The proposal checks the legality of a Bard's attempt to cast a spell against the Bard class list, not his personal list. Under it, for a given character to be allowed to cast a spell, all characters of his class must be able to cast it, because the only check is class level.

Incidentally, Sand Shaper does operate on the same "Spells Known" level as Knowstones do, and therefore must not work under your interpretation (at least, for those spells it grants which are not Sorcerer Spells, such as speak with animals).

You would think you would have learned after the whole ice assassin thing that contorting rules like this just makes things worse.

[Segev]

The condescending "I disagree with your reading of the RAW therefore it's a houserule" really isn't needed here.

It's not just a disagreement. The reading you're applying is wrong, and has been argued against. That you can't accept an acknowledgement that, for his specific game, the DM's ruling trumps RAW (if said ruling disagrees with the RAW), is not my problem.

If you prefer, I can phrase it thusly: "Your DM has made a ruling. What the RAW say no longer matters; his ruling is what matters for your table."



That said, Knowstones trump the general rule that a spell must be on your class list before you can know and cast it. Hence the continued claim that UMDing them works for out-of-class spells. Your arguments to the contrary are inconsistently applied.

[Psyren]

It's not just a disagreement. The reading you're applying is wrong, and has been argued against. That you can't accept an acknowledgement that, for his specific game, the DM's ruling trumps RAW (if said ruling disagrees with the RAW), is not my problem.

The DM's ruling doesn't have to trump RAW in this instance, because RAW is on his side.



That said, Knowstones trump the general rule that a spell must be on your class list before you can know and cast it. Hence the continued claim that UMDing them works for out-of-class spells. Your arguments to the contrary are inconsistently applied.

Where? Nothing I've seen in the Knowstone entry mentions spell lists at all. I'm still waiting for that quote.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the slightly expanded spell list is not what's making the Sorcerer overwhelming here. The fact that he's using Arcane Fusion loops and has substantially more wealth than the rest is probably a much bigger factor.


That's right! He's abusing from Arcane Fusion and kill and steal all wealth of 2 Good Aligment characters dead.


It's problematic.

[Gruftzwerg]

So to be clear, you think the example in the PHB where you explicitly can do exactly that is what, a lie put there to trick us into straying from the light of truth?

I guess I should have clarified more what I meant with that sentence.


Turn Undead:
you can fluke that you used "Turn Undead" to again a new ability. But you can't use it for things that just enhance your "Turn Undead" (e.g. extra turning, or counting as higher lvl for turning). Other Items that give "Extra Turning / Rage / Wildshape" all don't work with UMD.

back to knowstones:
knowstones new ability part is the "known spell" for spontaneous casting. It doesn't give you the "casting" ability. It allows you to cast a certain spell, not more not less.
UMD let's you know the spell, but you can't do anything with it, cause you can't cast it by any means. Sure you could try to argue with your DM that it could be counted as magic device which further could be used with UMD, but I can't think of any DM that would count "Spells Known" as magic device.

[Segev]

The DM's ruling doesn't have to trump RAW in this instance, because RAW is on his side.Irrelevant, and your constant need to try to make the claim when the point is acknowledged for their table obfuscates the answer to the OP's question.


Where? Nothing I've seen in the Knowstone entry mentions spell lists at all. I'm still waiting for that quote.
It says you are treated as knowing the spell inscribed, and can cast it normally.

--and, actually, I think I may shift to agreeing with you, thinking of it this way: If you're playing a Sorcerer/Bard, your spells known are separate lists and use separate sets of spell slots. Knowing a bard spell doesn't let you cast it from a sorcerer slot, and vice versa. By emulating the "has the bard spell list" class feature as a sorcerer, you're adding the bard spell to your list of bard spells known. You don't have the spell slots for that. Just as if you were a sorcerer/bard who had expended all his bard spell slots for the day, you couldn't use sorcerer spell slots to cast bard spells known.

[Psyren]

Irrelevant, and your constant need to try to make the claim when the point is acknowledged for their table obfuscates the answer to the OP's question.

Thing is, I'm not disputing that "the DM's ruling trumps RAW." That's obvious, bordering on banal. I'm discussing RAW, or at the very least, a legitimate interpretation of it.



It says you are treated as knowing the spell inscribed, and can cast it normally.

--and, actually, I think I may shift to agreeing with you, thinking of it this way: If you're playing a Sorcerer/Bard, your spells known are separate lists and use separate sets of spell slots. Knowing a bard spell doesn't let you cast it from a sorcerer slot, and vice versa. By emulating the "has the bard spell list" class feature as a sorcerer, you're adding the bard spell to your list of bard spells known. You don't have the spell slots for that. Just as if you were a sorcerer/bard who had expended all his bard spell slots for the day, you couldn't use sorcerer spell slots to cast bard spells known.

Exactly - as a bard UMDing a Knowstone of Arcane Fusion, you're emulating the "I can cast sorcerer spells" class feature from the sorcerer. This allows the Knowstone to function and you now know the spell. But because you cannot USE the "I can cast sorcerer spells" class feature (per the UMD text) then you can't actually use that spell that you now know.

Wyrm Wizard meanwhile has a second class feature that says "add these spells to your spell list." They do not have to be added to the spell list of every wizard to walk the earth in order for that feature to function - you are the Wyrm Wizard in question, and so the non-wizard spells that you have picked up work for you, specifically.

[Cosi]

By emulating the "has the bard spell list" class feature as a sorcerer, you're adding the bard spell to your list of bard spells known. You don't have the spell slots for that. Just as if you were a sorcerer/bard who had expended all his bard spell slots for the day, you couldn't use sorcerer spell slots to cast bard spells known.

The first thing you have to do under Psyren's interpretation is explain why any kind of list expansion works at all. If you can only cast spells that are on the appropriate list, everything from Advanced Learning to Sand Shaper either ceases to function or becomes totally insane. Given that there's ambiguity (and there is), we should prefer an interpretation where that doesn't happen, particularly because we totally can just Houserule it to not be broken any more.

Now, in response to the analogy, I don't think that's quite right. You certainly can't use your Sorcerer slots to cast spells you know as a Bard. But you can use them to cast spells on the Bard list. For example, if you happen to know charm person as a Sorcerer, the fact that it is also a Bard spell in no way prevents you from casting it.

[Cosi]

Wyrm Wizard meanwhile has a second class feature that says "add these spells to your spell list." They do not have to be added to the spell list of every wizard to walk the earth in order for that feature to function - you are the Wyrm Wizard in question, and so the non-wizard spells that you have picked up work for you, specifically.

Yes, they do. Under your interpretation, when attempting to cast a spell you know, you must check it against your class list. If it is not on that list, you cannot cast it. If Wyrm Wizard only adds to your list, under your interpretation it does not function. If it adds to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (which it must if you wish it to function), no power can stop any Wizard anywhere from learning any spell any Wyrm Wizard anywhere choose to add to their list.

[Karl Aegis]

If we believe this, it is impossible for any mechanism to add spells to any list. Unless, I suppose, we accept that all such mechanisms but Knowstones have a triple secret override for the double secret rule that we introduced because we didn't like the actual rules for Knowstones. FFS, under this interpretation, Chameleons can't cast spells, as they do not have a spell list (they cast spells from other spell lists).



Spell Secret: Thanks to your facility for blending music
and magic, you gain additional spells known for each spell
level as you gain levels. These spells must be drawn from
the sorcerer/wizard list and are thereafter treated as part of
your class spell list.


Looks like Lyric Thaumaturge has the right language to add spells to their list.

[Cosi]

Looks like Lyric Thaumaturge has the right language to add spells to their list.

No, it doesn't. Because Psyren doesn't propose that we check against your personal list. He proposes that we check against the general class list. No matter how many things you add to your list, your class list remains unchanged.

Lyric Thaumaturge says "treated as part of your class spell list". That's the personal class spell list of you (character specific). Psyren wants to check against the general class spell list of your class (system wide). For Knowstones to work as he describes, any effect that wishes to give a Wizard a new spell known must give that spell known to the Wizard class in general, not to any specific Wizard.

Is this stupid? Sure. But that is what the claim he's making necessarily implies.

[Segev]

Now, in response to the analogy, I don't think that's quite right. You certainly can't use your Sorcerer slots to cast spells you know as a Bard. But you can use them to cast spells on the Bard list. For example, if you happen to know charm person as a Sorcerer, the fact that it is also a Bard spell in no way prevents you from casting it.

And I'm sure that if you used a Knowstone of charm person as either a Bard or a Sorcerer, you wouldn't even need UMD.

The trouble arises when you try to use a Knowstone of a spell that doesn't appear on the class list for a class which grants you spell slots. So if your Sorcerer UMD's the class feature "has a bard's spell list" to use a Knowstone of glibness, he now has glibness as a bard spell known. But just as if he were a bard who was out of 2nd level spell slots, he lacks the bard spell slots to cast glibness from. It didn't add it to his list of Sorcerer spells known.

[Dagroth]

Okay, the way I read it...

A Knowstone is inscribed with one spell, much like a scroll with one spell.

If the spell is on your class's spell list and if you've got a high enough level spell slot, you can cast the spell.

UMD would bypass the "if the spell is on your class's spell list" part, because that is the function of the Knowstone... to provide you with access to the spell.

No matter what, you'd have to expend an appropriate level spell slot to cast the spell because the Knowstone doesn't do that for you.

So, a Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds (Bard 2) in the hands of a 4th level Sorcerer. If the Sorcerer passes the UMD check, he can use his second level spell slots to cast Cure Light Wounds. Because a Knowstone is a passive item, he only needs to make this check once every hour.

A Knowstone of Orb of Force (Sor/Wiz 4) in the hands of a 9th level Bard. If the Bard passes the UMD check, he still can't use the spell because he doesn't have any 4th level spell slots.

The same Knowstone of Orb of Force in the hands of a 9th level Beguiler. If the Beguiler passes the UMD check, he can use his 4th level spell slots to cast Orb of Force. Again, because a Knowstone is a passive item, he only needs to make this check once every hour.'

I don't see what's so hard about this.

Oh, almost forgot. A Knowstone (of any spell) in the hands of a single-class 15th level Rogue. He can pass as many UMD checks as he wants... he still doesn't have spell slots to expend to cast the spell he now "knows".

[Segev]

The tricky part is that the Knowstone doesn't make the spell valid to cast with your spell slots. It makes it part of your [class] spells known. If it's a spell that belongs to a class you already can cast, you don't need to UMD it, and it works as advertised. If it's a spell belonging to a class you don't have access to, it adds it to your spells known list for a class that can cast it.

But just like a bard/sorcerer can't use sorcerer spell slots to cast spells he knows as a bard, you can't use a spell you know "as a bard" thanks to the Knowstone to cast the spell with a sorcerer spell slot.

[Psyren]

Looks like Lyric Thaumaturge has the right language to add spells to their list.

Correct, and plenty of other classes do too, including Wyrm Wizard and Chameleon.
What does not have the necessary language, is the Knowstone.

[Cosi]

But just like a bard/sorcerer can't use sorcerer spell slots to cast spells he knows as a bard, you can't use a spell you know "as a bard" thanks to the Knowstone to cast the spell with a sorcerer spell slot.

This analogy falls apart when you consider the case of a multi-classed character with overlapping spell lists. A Favored Soul/Cleric can't cast Cleric spells from Favored Soul slots, even though all those Cleric Spells are legal Favored Soul Spells. Clearly, a class-list level restriction isn't what's going on. You have spells known for each class you are, and you can cast them with that class's slots. The spells you get for a class on level up are from that class's list, but if an effect adds something to your spells known, you can cast it.

Of course, even if you accept the interpretation, we're still left with the problem of Wyrm Wizards. A class level check can't support unique spell lists for individual characters.

[Karl Aegis]

What exactly IS the check DC? I don't see the level the spellcaster gains the spellcasting ability. Sorcerer just says, "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." I don't think "is a sorcerer" is a class feature gained at a certain level, so it must be native to the class at every level, even negative levels.

[Zanos]

The spells per day table is part of the main class entry. Presumably you would have to UMD the minimum level to cast a spell of the level in the knowstone.

[ATHATH]

Guys, whether or not Knowstones let you cast spells from other lists doesn't matter anymore. The OP's DM has ruled that they can't, and that's the end of that. If the Sorcerer-player wants to argue that they do work by RAW (I'm not saying that they do, only that the Sorcerer-player THINKS they do), the DM can just invoke Rule 0 and/or just say that it's a houserule (even if the DM believes that it isn't one/it is RAW).

Can we please stop arguing about this so that this thread doesn't get locked, and instead focus on the other problems that were uncovered about the OP's game over the course of this thread?

[Segev]

This analogy falls apart when you consider the case of a multi-classed character with overlapping spell lists. A Favored Soul/Cleric can't cast Cleric spells from Favored Soul slots, even though all those Cleric Spells are legal Favored Soul Spells. Clearly, a class-list level restriction isn't what's going on. You have spells known for each class you are, and you can cast them with that class's slots. The spells you get for a class on level up are from that class's list, but if an effect adds something to your spells known, you can cast it.No, it still holds.

You learn a spell as a particular class. That restricts which spell slots you can cast it from. Or, rather, it opens up only one class's spell slots to cast that spell.

When you use a Knowstone, you choose which class you're using the features of to "learn" the spell; that determines which class's spell slots you can use. Just like if you learn charm person as a bard, but not as a sorcerer. Now, because a Knowstone doesn't take an action to activate, you can use it with every class that could provide spell slots for it without worrying about this restriction. But it's still technically there.


Of course, even if you accept the interpretation, we're still left with the problem of Wyrm Wizards. A class level check can't support unique spell lists for individual characters.Doesn't the Wyrm Wizard specifically say it's added to your class spell list?


What exactly IS the check DC? I don't see the level the spellcaster gains the spellcasting ability. Sorcerer just says, "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." I don't think "is a sorcerer" is a class feature gained at a certain level, so it must be native to the class at every level, even negative levels.You gain the ability to cast 3rd level spells (for example) as a sorcerer at 6th level. So the check DC for, say, a knowstone of fireball would be 26.

But now you know fireball as a sorcerer spell. You need something to give you a 3rd level sorcerer spell slot before you can actually cast it.

[Psyren]

Guys, whether or not Knowstones let you cast spells from other lists doesn't matter anymore. The OP's DM has ruled that they can't, and that's the end of that. If the Sorcerer-player wants to argue that they do work by RAW (I'm not saying that they do, only that the Sorcerer-player THINKS they do), the DM can just invoke Rule 0 and/or just say that it's a houserule (even if the DM believes that it isn't one/it is RAW).

Can we please stop arguing about this so that this thread doesn't get locked, and instead focus on the other problems that were uncovered about the OP's game over the course of this thread?

It doesn't matter to his specific game, but it's still a worthy topic of discussion.

And if avoiding getting the thread locked is really the goal, I would think avoiding discussion of a certain repeatedly-banned poster might be the far better way to go about that.



Doesn't the Wyrm Wizard specifically say it's added to your class spell list?

It very much does:

"Spell Research (Ex): One of the greatest advantages that you gain from consulting draconic lore is the ability to unlock magical secrets forbidden to other wizards. Starting at 2nd level, select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast. You can add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list as a spell of the same level; all other aspects of the spell remain unchanged. At every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain the knowledge and use of one additional spell in this manner."



But now you know fireball as a sorcerer spell. You need something to give you a 3rd level sorcerer spell slot before you can actually cast it.

Precisely - because that is how sorcerers normally cast fireball, by having a 3rd-level sorcerer slot to cast it from.

[Karl Aegis]

Sorcerers can always use a scroll of Greater Teleport with a caster level of 15 without having to roll a Use Magic Device check regardless of their levels in Sorcerer because Greater Teleport is on their class list. They don't gain the ability "has Greater Teleport on their class list" at a certain level. It's just always there. Besides, if we're emulating "has Greater Teleport on their class list" we could bypass the DC 35 check to use a caster level 15 scroll. That's an exceptionally large part of the skill made redundant.

Wyrm Wizard probably isn't the best example because the Spell Research (ex) doesn't add the spell to your spells known. You would probably have to use one of your level-up Spellbook spells on it or go searching for a scroll of the spell. Or create a scroll via the magic item creation use of Wish and copy it into your spellbook.

[Segev]

Sorcerers can always use a scroll of Greater Teleport with a caster level of 15 without having to roll a Use Magic Device check regardless of their levels in Sorcerer because Greater Teleport is on their class list. They don't gain the ability "has Greater Teleport on their class list" at a certain level. It's just always there. Besides, if we're emulating "has Greater Teleport on their class list" we could bypass the DC 35 check to use a caster level 15 scroll. That's an exceptionally large part of the skill made redundant.Ah. Then the DC is 21, because they gain "has greater teleport on their class spell list" at Sorcerer 1.

[Dagroth]

I didn't see anything that said a Knowstone adds the spell to the list of spells for the class... it said it allows you to cast the spell with your spell slots "(as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)".

While it does mention that some spells will require higher level spell slots for some classes as opposed to others (the example given is Crushing Dispair, a 3rd level spell for Bards & a 4th level spell for Sorcerers).

Theoretically, a Sorcerer could UMD the Crushing Dispair Knowstone to trick it into believing he was able to cast 3rd level Bard spells... thus gaining the ability to cast the spell using 3rd level spell slots rather than 4th level ones.

I have a copy of the Dragon Magazine in question right in front of me... that's where I'm getting the text information.

[Segev]

If it specifically calls out that the spell slot level used depends on the caster type they're casting as, then that just solidifies it. You have to choose as what class you're adding the spell to your known list when you use the Knowstone.

Let's say you're a Sorcerer 6.

If you use a Knowstone of fireball, that's fine. No UMD needed, you choose to add it to your spells known as a sorcerer, and it takes a 3rd level sorcerer slot.

If you use a Knowstone of animate dead, that's also fine. No UMD needed; you choose to add it to your spells known as a sorcerer, and it takes a 4th level slot to cast. Unfortunately, you don't HAVE any 4th level sorcerer slots, so you can't actually CAST it, but...well, it's part of your spells known!

If you use a Knowstone of animate dead with UMD to learn it as a Favored Soul, great! Now you know it as a third level Favored Soul spell known! Except...you have no 3rd level Favored Soul spell slots out of which to cast it.

Now, let's say you take 5 levels of Bard, making you a Sorcerer 6/Bard 5. That's plenty to get you to 2nd level Bard spells.

You get a Knowstone of glibness. Using it as a Bard, you need no UMD; it just becomes a Bard spell you know, and you can cast it with 2nd level Bard spell slots. Even though you know it as a Bard, you can't actually cast it using Sorcerer spell slots of any level; you don't know it as a Sorcerer spell.

If you tried this before taking any levels of Bard, you could still use UMD to emulate "has Bard spell list" and thus learn glibness from this Knowstone...as a Bard spell. But you still don't have any 2nd level bard spell slots, so you can't actually cast it.

If you're a Sorcerer 10/Bard 10, and you pick up a Knowstone of suggestion, it actually matters which of the two you choose to cast it as. Either can use the Knowstone without UMD, but if you use it as a Bard it uses a 2nd level slot, where a Sorcerer uses a 3rd level slot.

This last one's important as an example, because it highlights that you use a spell level slot appropriate to the class as which you've learned it. If you've learned it as a class for which you do not have the spell slot of a level you need, then you can't cast it at all.

[Cosi]

What exactly IS the check DC? I don't see the level the spellcaster gains the spellcasting ability. Sorcerer just says, "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list." I don't think "is a sorcerer" is a class feature gained at a certain level, so it must be native to the class at every level, even negative levels.

The class feature in question is part of the "Spells" class feature, gained at 1st level. The DC is 21.


The spells per day table is part of the main class entry. Presumably you would have to UMD the minimum level to cast a spell of the level in the knowstone.

That's if you want to no-slot it. You get the Sorcerer spell list at 1st level.


Doesn't the Wyrm Wizard specifically say it's added to your class spell list?

Yes, and that's the problem. As I have explained several times.

Psyren's position is based on this quote:


A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

Under his interpretation, this sentence is a proscriptive claim that requires any spell a Bard casts to be drawn from the Bard Spell List. Since fireball is not on the Bard Spell List, using UMD on a Knowstone will not allow a Bard to cast fireball.

In effect, this restriction means that there is a global authority on what spells Bards can cast -- the Bard Spell List.

Now, turn to Lyric Thaumaturge or Wyrm Wizard. They have text that adds spells to "your class list". This can mean one of two things:

1. The personal class list of you.
2. The general class list of your class.

The typical understanding of these cases is 1. You add a spell to your spell list, and then you can cast it. But under Psyren's interpretation of the rules, this cannot be. Any spell any Bard casts must be on the Bard Spell List. It does not matter if it is on the list of any individual Bard. If it did, the Knowstone's adding of a spell to your list of spells known would be sufficient for a Bard to use it to cast fireball.

However, if we choose 2, there is no restriction that a spell added to the Bard Spell List by a Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge be learned or cast only by that particular Bard. If the spell is now on the Bard Spell List, any Bard who wishes to may learn it (assuming he is learning a spell of the level in question).

Fundamentally, a global check (spells cast by Bards must be on the Bard Spell List) cannot support local variation (this Bard may learn fireball because he is a Wyrm Wizard, other Bards may not). Psyren's position is a defensible one, but it is absolutely incompatible with any form of spell list expansion that does not apply wholesale to particular classes.


Besides, if we're emulating "has Greater Teleport on their class list" we could bypass the DC 35 check to use a caster level 15 scroll. That's an exceptionally large part of the skill made redundant.

First, so? I don't think "if this was RAW, this other thing wouldn't be very useful" has any meaning at all in a RAW debate. If we follow this logic, we must reject divine power for making Fighters redundant.

Second, it's not as bad as you imply, because you would still need to emulate the appropriate caster level to use the scroll.

[AnachroNinja]

I didn't see anything that said a Knowstone adds the spell to the list of spells for the class... it said it allows you to cast the spell with your spell slots "(as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)".

While it does mention that some spells will require higher level spell slots for some classes as opposed to others (the example given is Crushing Dispair, a 3rd level spell for Bards & a 4th level spell for Sorcerers).

Theoretically, a Sorcerer could UMD the Crushing Dispair Knowstone to trick it into believing he was able to cast 3rd level Bard spells... thus gaining the ability to cast the spell using 3rd level spell slots rather than 4th level ones.

I have a copy of the Dragon Magazine in question right in front of me... that's where I'm getting the text information.

More specifically, even if we take the description as an implication that you are adding it to your spell list, it does NOT say that you have to add it to any particular spell list. You emulate the bard spell list which lets you activate the stone, you activate the stone and add it to your sorcerer spells known. Absolutely nothing in the description says you can't do so. In theory a Sorcerer 10/Bard 1 could just use knowstones for this freely, unless I'm missing something anyway.

[ijon]

A knowstone is a semi-precious stone containing the formula for casting a spell within. A typical knowstone is a small, smooth semi-precious stone inscribed with an ancient arcane symbol. The stone itself typically has a value no greater than 25 gp before the etching of the arcane symbol.

A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The knowstone’s bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level. For example, a bard may cast crushing despair from a knowstone of crushing despair if he can cast 3rd-level spells, whereas a sorcerer must be able to cast 4th-level spells to employ a knowstone of that spell.

A knowstone always appears in a piece of jewelry but does not occupy a magic item slot. It takes 24 hours for a knowstone to attune to a new bearer, after which time the knowstone grants its inscribed spell.

so what I'm reading is that the knowstone doesn't add spells to spell lists; it only cares that its spell is on your spell list, and if it is, it bestows knowledge of the spell upon you. UMD shenanigans allow you to fake-qualify for that.



Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

primarily does not mean exclusively; it means for the most part, giving us wiggle room. and then it says the sorcerer can cast any spell he knows. thanks to UMD shenanigans, we now know the spell.

it seems a pretty clear cut case to me. the sorcerer fools the knowstone into bestowing spell knowledge onto him, and then since he knows it, he can cast it, spell lists be damned.

it's a stupid and broken ruling, but I'd be blatantly lying if I said RAW wasn't already stupid and broken. I'd ban it.

------

as for the DM problem... yeah, making the other potential players aware of this, and making the DM aware of how unfun this makes the game, seems like the best course of action. no amount of rules lawyering will make the game more fun for you, and the DM already put his foot down on the matter, saying "no".

[Psyren]

There is no RAW definition for "primarily", so it falls to GM adjudication, and they get veto power over any non-sorcerer spells you try to learn this way.

Bards are right out though (barring fiat.)

[Cosi]

it's a stupid and broken ruling, but I'd be blatantly lying if I said RAW wasn't already stupid and broken. I'd ban it.

It doesn't seem at all broken to me to spend (Spell Level * Spell Level * 1000 GP) to learn arbitrary spells.

Now, howling into the void:


There is no RAW definition for "primarily", so it falls to GM adjudication, and they get veto power over any non-sorcerer spells you try to learn this way.

But there is a RAW definition of "normally"?


Bards are right out though (barring fiat.)

Only if you believe that all Beguilers can cast any spell ever added to the Beguiler list by any Beguiler/Wyrm Wizard.

[ijon]

are bard spells not arcane spells? there's nothing in the sorcerer's spellcasting feature ruling it out, once he knows the spell.
and the knowstone doesn't grant you the spell for a specific class; the text itself even gives an example of that.

though that does also mean it doesn't grant the spell at a particular level, either, due to spells existing at multiple spell levels on different spell lists.

now I'm tempted to say it just ticks the spell as "known" on all of your spell lists, if it's present. it sounds sane to me.

edit:

It doesn't seem at all broken to me to spend (Spell Level * Spell Level * 1000 GP) to learn arbitrary spells.

it's cheaper than a corresponding 3/day use-activated magic item, and since you're casting it, it benefits from your casting stats. that's pretty good.

[Segev]

Under his interpretation, this sentence is a proscriptive claim that requires any spell a Bard casts to be drawn from the Bard Spell List. Since fireball is not on the Bard Spell List, using UMD on a Knowstone will not allow a Bard to cast fireball.

In effect, this restriction means that there is a global authority on what spells Bards can cast -- the Bard Spell List.

Now, turn to Lyric Thaumaturge or Wyrm Wizard. They have text that adds spells to "your class list". This can mean one of two things:

1. The personal class list of you.
2. The general class list of your class.

The typical understanding of these cases is 1. You add a spell to your spell list, and then you can cast it. But under Psyren's interpretation of the rules, this cannot be. Any spell any Bard casts must be on the Bard Spell List. It does not matter if it is on the list of any individual Bard. If it did, the Knowstone's adding of a spell to your list of spells known would be sufficient for a Bard to use it to cast fireball.The issue is that the Knowstone doesn't say it adds it to your class list.

Quite the contrary, it implies that you cast the spell at the level it appears on your class list. If it doesn't appear on your class list, you can't cast it, because there is no spell level to tell you what slot to expend!


Fundamentally, a global check (spells cast by Bards must be on the Bard Spell List) cannot support local variation (this Bard may learn fireball because he is a Wyrm Wizard, other Bards may not). Psyren's position is a defensible one, but it is absolutely incompatible with any form of spell list expansion that does not apply wholesale to particular classes.I'm not sure where you're seeing a "global check" overriding a "local one."

Wyrm Wizards - as your primary counterexample - do expressly state that they add the spell to your class list. Your class list, yes. You have an exception, now, that adds (say) glibness to your Sorcerer class list.

Knowstones don't say that. They say you now know the spell. They require you to have a class which can know the spell - a class with the spell on its class list. You can UMD your way into qualifying...but in so doing, you've chosen what class as which you know it. The Sorcerer who UMDs a Knowstone to know glibness as a Bard spell still doesn't have Bard spell slots from which to cast it.

The Knowstone would have to say that it adds it to his class list. It doesn't; it instead requires that it already be on your class list.




Let's try this other example:

You're a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10. You pick up a Knowstone of glibness. Obviously, you don't need UMD to use Bard spell slots to cast it. Are you claiming that you can use UMD to use Sorcerer spell slots to cast it?

What if you're a Sorcerer 10 only, and you pick up a Knowstone of suggestion? Can you use UMD to cast it out of a 2nd level slot, because Bards could?

If your interpretation is right, you could. But I don't see how you can, since the UMD check doesn't put the spell on your class list. It lets you have it on your "known list" for the class you emulated. It isn't on your "known list" for the class you actually have. Unlike Wyrm Wizard, who actually puts it on your class list for the class you have.

[Thurbane]

Just for reference, this is the same series of arguments for (and against) letting a Beguiling UMD a Runestaff to cast non-Beguiler spells using his Beguiler spell slots?

[Psyren]

are bard spells not arcane spells? there's nothing in the sorcerer's spellcasting feature ruling it out, once he knows the spell.

Was this directed at me? I said Bards are out because their "Spells" class feature does not include the clause "primarily." It merely says "drawn from the Bard list." Thus, what little wiggle room the Sorcerer gets, Bards do not share.


Just for reference, this is the same series of arguments for (and against) letting a Beguiling UMD a Runestaff to cast non-Beguiler spells using his Beguiler spell slots?

I'm not sure, remind me where the runestaff is from? Maybe it has language the Knowstone seems to lack.

[Dagroth]

If it specifically calls out that the spell slot level used depends on the caster type they're casting as, then that just solidifies it. You have to choose as what class you're adding the spell to your known list when you use the Knowstone.

The description of the item says nothing of the sort. It says "As if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". The reason you'd be UMD'ing it would be so you could use a lower level spell slot, if the spell were already on your list.

Just as you'd have to Decipher Script (or UMD) a Devine Scroll of Animate Dead, despite it being on your Sorcerer Spell List.

However, if a Bard makes a Scroll of Animate Dead and a Wizard finds that Scroll... he can add that spell to his spellbook as a 4th level spell, because that's what level the spell is for a Wizard.


If you're a Sorcerer 10/Bard 10, and you pick up a Knowstone of suggestion, it actually matters which of the two you choose to cast it as. Either can use the Knowstone without UMD, but if you use it as a Bard it uses a 2nd level slot, where a Sorcerer uses a 3rd level slot.

This last one's important as an example, because it highlights that you use a spell level slot appropriate to the class as which you've learned it. If you've learned it as a class for which you do not have the spell slot of a level you need, then you can't cast it at all.

However, I'm saying the Sor 10/Bard 10 could UMD the Knowstone in order to use a 2nd level Sorcerer spell slot, even though he has 2nd level Bard spell slots.


More specifically, even if we take the description as an implication that you are adding it to your spell list, it does NOT say that you have to add it to any particular spell list. You emulate the bard spell list which lets you activate the stone, you activate the stone and add it to your sorcerer spells known. Absolutely nothing in the description says you can't do so. In theory a Sorcerer 10/Bard 1 could just use knowstones for this freely, unless I'm missing something anyway.

You're missing something. If your Sor 10/Bard 1 had a Knowstone of Glibness, he could only use it by UMDing it as a Sorcerer spell or Versatile Spellcaster Feat'ing it as a Bard.


I'm not sure, remind me where the runestaff is from? Maybe it has language the Knowstone seems to lack.

Magic Item Compendium.

[Segev]

Runestaves are in the Magic Item Compendium. I'm away from my books right now, so I can't check their exact wording.

[ijon]

Was this directed at me?

it was, but then someone else replied in the middle

I assumed you said that the logic didn't allow sorcerers to use bard spells

it's moot anyway, since knowstones don't add to or assume a spell list when granting knowledge

[Cosi]

it's cheaper than a corresponding 3/day use-activated magic item, and since you're casting it, it benefits from your casting stats. that's pretty good.

But it also requires you to have a spell slot available (I assume you mean the Eternal Wand, right?).


Quite the contrary, it implies that you cast the spell at the level it appears on your class list. If it doesn't appear on your class list, you can't cast it, because there is no spell level to tell you what slot to expend!

Yes, but if you emulate having a different spell list, you can cast it at the level it appears on that list. The whole point of this is that you are emulating a spell list. Whenever there's a pointer to "your class" or "your spell list", it points at the class you're emulating.


I'm not sure where you're seeing a "global check" overriding a "local one."

This whole enterprise is dependent on the notion that the Bard cannot use a fireball Knowstone because fireball does not appear on the Bard Spell List. Not because it doesn't appear on his spell list, because he can use a glibness Knowstone even if he neglected to learn it.


Wyrm Wizards - as your primary counterexample - do expressly state that they add the spell to your class list. Your class list, yes. You have an exception, now, that adds (say) glibness to your Sorcerer class list.

But per Psyren's citation, your spell list doesn't matter. It doesn't say;


A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from his bard spell list.

It says:


A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list.

If that sentence operates in the way Psyren requires it to for Knowstones not to work, it does not allow a Bard to use a spell other Bards cannot use. Any spell he casts must be on the general Bard Spell List, from where other Bards may take it if desired.


If your interpretation is right, you could. But I don't see how you can, since the UMD check doesn't put the spell on your class list. It lets you have it on your "known list" for the class you emulated. It isn't on your "known list" for the class you actually have.

It doesn't have to be. It has to be on the "known list" for the class you are using to active the Knowstone. Once you do that, you cast the spell with an appropriate spell slot (or an even bigger UMD check).

To use the Knowstone, its spell must be on your list (this is activation, and the list can be emulated).
The effect of using the Knowstone is that you use a spell slot of the level the spell in the Knowstone is on the list of the class you activate the Knowstone as the cast the spell (this may be part of the activation, and if it is it can be emulated -- but that's not important to the current debate).

[Psyren]

Magic Item Compendium.


Runestaves are in the Magic Item Compendium. I'm away from my books right now, so I can't check their exact wording.

Thanks!

Looking it up, it appears that Runestaffs don't care what's on your list - you just need an arcane slot of a level equal to or higher than the spell in the staff that you're trying to use. The staff itself comes prepackaged with its own "slots" (1-3 each) to cast its spells from, and you can only be attuned to one at a time (chosen when you ready spells for the day.)

So yes, a Bard could use a runestaff containing entirely or in part spells that are not on the Bard list with no problems, so long as he had high enough spell slots available to do so and the right components for each of those spells.

The key difference between runestaves and knowstones is that runestaves come prepackaged with the casting mechanism (the uses per day, or "virtual slots") to use the spells within them. Thus it doesn't matter that the spells are not on your list. Knowstones do not have this advantage. Runestaves are also more balanced, since no matter how many slots you have to burn, you can only use a given runestave spell 3/day, and can only be attuned to one stave at a time.

[Segev]

The description of the item says nothing of the sort. It says "As if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". The reason you'd be UMD'ing it would be so you could use a lower level spell slot, if the spell were already on your list.The inscribed spell doesn't have a spell level. It's just the spell. What level spell is glibness for a sorcerer?

Sorcerers can't "normally" cast glibness. It's not any level spell for them.


Just as you'd have to Decipher Script (or UMD) a Devine Scroll of Animate Dead, despite it being on your Sorcerer Spell List.Invalid comparison. You're doing nothing differently than a Rogue would at this point.

You're not trying to argue that a Rogue can UMD a Knowstone of glibness and somehow cast it despite not having any bard spell slots from which to cast it, are you?


However, if a Bard makes a Scroll of Animate Dead and a Wizard finds that Scroll... he can add that spell to his spellbook as a 4th level spell, because that's what level the spell is for a Wizard.Exactly.

And if a Bard makes a Knowstone of suggestion, and a sorcerer picks it up, that sorcerer can use suggestion from a third level spell slot, because that's what level the spell is for a sorcerer.

If a Bard makes a Knowstone of glibness, however, and a sorcerer picks it up and UMD's "bard spell list" to add it to his spells known, he still runs into a problem: glibness isn't any level spell for a sorcerer, so he has no spell slots from which to cast it.

For your Bard making scrolls of animate dead example to work, you'd have to be claiming that the Wizard adds it to his spellbook at the level the Bard made it, not as a 4th level spell due to that being the level the spell is for Wizards.



However, I'm saying the Sor 10/Bard 10 could UMD the Knowstone in order to use a 2nd level Sorcerer spell slot, even though he has 2nd level Bard spell slots.Okay. Consistent with your other readings, but still unsupported, so far as I can tell, by the Knowstone's text.


You're missing something. If your Sor 10/Bard 1 had a Knowstone of Glibness, he could only use it by UMDing it as a Sorcerer spell or Versatile Spellcaster Feat'ing it as a Bard.I deliberately avoided Sor 10/Bard 1 because Bard 1 can't use glibness. If I wrote that somewhere, it was a typo meant to be Sor 10/Bard 10.

Apologies if so.

A Sor 10/Bard 1 couldn't cast glibness; he doesn't need to UMD it, because he IS a Bard, but he still lacks the 2nd level bard spell slot from which to cast it.

[Cosi]

The inscribed spell doesn't have a spell level. It's just the spell. What level spell is glibness for a sorcerer?

That depends on how they get glibness (well, actually it doesn't, because glibness is 3rd level on all spell lists where it appears). If you imagine that we were hypothetically talking about Dread Necromancers and haste, the answer would be 1st if they got it from using Wyrm Wizard to take it from the Trapsmith list, 2nd if they got it from the Telflammar Shadowlord list, 3rd if they got it from the Time domain, and 4th if they got it from the Celeirty Domain.

But the real answer is "that's irrelevant", because the Knowstone determines what level of slot it asks for from the list you pass it when activating, meaning that the level of glibness for a Sorcerer is dependent on how he chooses to use UMD.

You can think of the Knowstone as two linked functions:

1. You pass the Knowstone a spell list and it returns a spell slot you need to cast its spell.
2. You pass the Knowstone a spell slot of the appropriate level and cast its spell.

At no point does your class list matter at all.


You're not trying to argue that a Rogue can UMD a Knowstone of glibness and somehow cast it despite not having any bard spell slots from which to cast it, are you?

It seems to me that there are certainly wordings of the effect where that is legal (per the PHB chalice precedent). Whether Knowstone has such a wording is dependent on what you believe the activation action is. It seems to me that action is "expending the appropriate spell slot", and may therefore be emulated by a sufficiently large UMD check.

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure, remind me where the runestaff is from? Maybe it has language the Knowstone seems to lack.

Runestaffs: MIC p.223.


A runestaff allows its wielder to use her own arcane energy to generate magical effects. Typically, a runestaff has anywhere from two to five spells. By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list. The spell is treated exactly as if the wielder cast the spell herself, including caster level, save DC, and any other effects related to the spell. Unless stated otherwise in the runestaff’s description, each spell can be cast from a runestaff three times per day.

...like Knowstones, I've seen UMDing it argued both ways.

[Psyren]

Sorcerers can't "normally" cast glibness. It's not any level spell for them.

Invalid comparison. You're doing nothing differently than a Rogue would at this point.

You're not trying to argue that a Rogue can UMD a Knowstone of glibness and somehow cast it despite not having any bard spell slots from which to cast it, are you?


That's exactly what he's trying to argue. It's ridiculous, though if he can get a GM to swallow that definition of "normally," more power to him I guess.



...like Knowstones, I've seen UMDing it argued both ways.

I don't see why a Beguiler would need to UMD it at all. They have arcane slots, do they not? It should just work.

[Cosi]

Could the people arguing about the definition of the word "normally" please tell me where the game defines it?

[Thurbane]

I don't see why a Beguiler would need to UMD it at all. They have arcane slots, do they not? It should just work.

It would except for this:


...as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list.

[Zanos]

Could the people arguing about the definition of the word "normally" please tell me where the game defines it?
Conveniently in this context there's a parenthetical explanation for what normally means in this regard.

[Cosi]

Conveniently in this context there's a parenthetical explanation for what normally means in this regard.

Okay, but that doesn't support any of their assertions at all.

So is Psyren just making things up?

[Dagroth]

Again, the wording of Knowstone does not say it adds the spell to your Class's known spell list, nor does it say it adds it to the list of spells known for your class.

It says, clearly and concisely:


A Knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The Knowstone's bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the Knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered to be part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a Knowstone, provided the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level.

Note that the Knowstone does not give you a spell slot (like a Runestaff technically does), so no a Rogue should not be able to UMD one to cast the spell. But UMDing one to cast a spell from a different list seems exactly what the "emulate a class feature" ability of UMD would do.

You are emulating a class feature "Having access to the Bard spell list" (after all, there are other classes that get this feature). Once you have successfully emulated this class feature, the Knowstone adds the inscribed spell to the list of spells you know. You then cast the spell, just as if it were any other spell you knew.

[Rhyltran]

Again, the wording of Knowstone does not say it adds the spell to your Class's known spell list, nor does it say it adds it to the list of spells known for your class.

It says, clearly and concisely:



Note that the Knowstone does not give you a spell slot (like a Runestaff technically does), so no a Rogue should not be able to UMD one to cast the spell. But UMDing one to cast a spell from a different list seems exactly what the "emulate a class feature" ability of UMD would do.

You are emulating a class feature "Having access to the Bard spell list" (after all, there are other classes that get this feature). Once you have successfully emulated this class feature, the Knowstone adds the inscribed spell to the list of spells you know. You then cast the spell, just as if it were any other spell you knew.

This has always been my understanding of it. I am actually shocked that there's a huge debate over how this works.

[Psyren]

Conveniently in this context there's a parenthetical explanation for what normally means in this regard.

Yep, and it says:

"(as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)"

Nothing about it being on your list. Nothing about giving you [class] slots to cast it with. You know the spell, it's a very nice spell, and you get to admire it for as long as your UMD lasts.


You then cast the spell, just as if it were any other spell you knew.

With what slots?

[Segev]

Yes, but if you emulate having a different spell list, you can cast it at the level it appears on that list. The whole point of this is that you are emulating a spell list. Whenever there's a pointer to "your class" or "your spell list", it points at the class you're emulating.

You're emulating having that different spell list so that the Knowstone can add it to your list of spells known from that list. But you don't actually have that spell list. You don't have spell slots that can cast spells from that spell list, nor from your spells known from that spell list. UMD can't give you the spell slots; it can only let you emulate having the spell list from which to draw the spell to add it to your spells known for that spell list.

As you say, you're emulating a spell list. This puts the spell on your spells known from that spell list. Just as, if you really had that spell list, you couldn't use a DIFFERENT class's spell slots to cast from that spell list, you still have to use the emulated class's spell slots to cast that spell you now know from that spell list. But...you don't have any.

[Segev]

You know the spell, it's a very nice spell, and you get to admire it for as long as your UMD lasts.
I suppose, at least, it allows you to use spell trigger items that require you to have the spell list? Though you could UMD those directly.

[Dagroth]

We're talking in circles and repeating the same arguments over and over. It's clear that both sides believe their reading is the correct one and the given arguments aren't changing that.

If anyone has a different angle to approach this from, I welcome it.

[Segev]

...holy...

Actually, the wording for Runestaves says you expend a spell slot to get the staff to cast the spell.

You can UMD a Runestaff without actually having to have a spell slot to expend!

[Psyren]

...holy...

Actually, the wording for Runestaves says you expend a spell slot to get the staff to cast the spell.

You can UMD a Runestaff without actually having to have a spell slot to expend!

Yeah, I'm leaning towards "Beguiler UMD runestaves work" because they come prepackaged with virtual slots that are class-agnostic, which are then powered by yours. (I'd say a rogue can't use them though.)

[Thurbane]

OK, not sure if this has been debated or not, but how about this: what if a spell appears on a different classes list at a lower level. Can you chose which class to emulate with UMD so you could cast the spell using a lower spell slot? Say you find a KNowstone of animate dead? Can you chose to emulate Favored Soul/Cleric to cast it as a 3rd level spell rather than Sor/Wiz using a 4th level slot? This isn't a great example, but I have to leave for work in 5 minutes!

Just curious.

[Dagroth]

OK, not sure if this has been debated or not, but how about this: what if a spell appears on a different classes list at a lower level. Can you chose which class to emulate with UMD so you could cast the spell using a lower spell slot? Say you find a KNowstone of animate dead? Can you chose to emulate Favored Soul/Cleric to cast it as a 3rd level spell rather than Sor/Wiz using a 4th level slot? This isn't a great example, but I have to leave for work in 5 minutes!

Just curious.

I covered this. If you don't UMD it, you cast it as the appropriate level spell. If you do UMD it (remember, have to roll again every hour!) then you can cast it as the lower level spell.

At least, in my opinion.

[Cosi]

As you say, you're emulating a spell list. This puts the spell on your spells known from that spell list. Just as, if you really had that spell list, you couldn't use a DIFFERENT class's spell slots to cast from that spell list, you still have to use the emulated class's spell slots to cast that spell you now know from that spell list. But...you don't have any.

Not quite. It allows you to use a spell slot appropriate for the spell's level on that list to cast it. At no point does it care what list that spell slot comes from.


OK, not sure if this has been debated or not, but how about this: what if a spell appears on a different classes list at a lower level. Can you chose which class to emulate with UMD so you could cast the spell using a lower spell slot? Say you find a KNowstone of animate dead? Can you chose to emulate Favored Soul/Cleric to cast it as a 3rd level spell rather than Sor/Wiz using a 4th level slot? This isn't a great example, but I have to leave for work in 5 minutes!

Yes, at least for Knowstones. The example listed says that the Knowstone requires different spell slots for different lists, meaning that if you happen to have an animate dead Knowstone, you can emulate the Cleric or Death Master rather than Wizard list. I'm not sure what happens if you already have it on your list, then try to UMD the Knowstone.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

You're emulating having that different spell list so that the Knowstone can add it to your list of spells known from that list. But you don't actually have that spell list. You don't have spell slots that can cast spells from that spell list, nor from your spells known from that spell list. UMD can't give you the spell slots; it can only let you emulate having the spell list from which to draw the spell to add it to your spells known for that spell list.


PERFECT.

Use Magic Device + Knowstones dont work.

[Dagroth]

PERFECT.

Use Magic Device + Knowstones dont work.

Again, there's nothing in the text of the Knowstone item that says "from that list" or "from the Bard spell list" or anything beyond it needing to be from your class's spell list (which is why you need to UMD it) just like you'd have to UMD a Wand of Glibness if you are a Sorcerer.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Again, there's nothing in the text of the Knowstone item that says "from that list" or "from the Bard spell list" or anything beyond it needing to be from your class's spell list (which is why you need to UMD it) just like you'd have to UMD a Wand of Glibness if you are a Sorcerer.

Wrong,
Wand of Glibness expend spells slots. UMD work well with it.
Knowstones, not. The Sorcerer still cant cast "Glibness", because he still dont qualify to cast it or bard spell slots avaiable.

[Segev]

The issue remains that, when you emulate class spell list access, the Knowstone only gives you that spell known for the class you emulated. Because, again, you need to cast it from a spell slot of the appropriate class. Just like a Bard casting glibness has to use a Bard spell slot to cast it; he can't use a Sorcerer spell slot even if he is also a Sorcerer 6.

[Rhyltran]

Wrong,
Wand of Glibness expend spells slots. UMD work well with it.
Knowstones, not. The Sorcerer still cant cast "Glibness", because he still dont qualify to cast it or bard spell slots avaiable.

It just has to be on your list. It doesn't state anywhere in it's text that it has to come from the bard slot. If you UMD the knowstone you can emulate the bard list. Since the spell is now on "your" list "you" can cast it. You don't need a bard slot. By the RAW terminology you meet the criteria needed to cast the spell. It outright states "As long as the spell is on your list and you can cast spells of it's level." Can your sorcerer cast spells that are at Glibness level? Did you emulate the bard list? You're done at this step.


The issue remains that, when you emulate class spell list access, the Knowstone only gives you that spell known for the class you emulated. Because, again, you need to cast it from a spell slot of the appropriate class. Just like a Bard casting glibness has to use a Bard spell slot to cast it; he can't use a Sorcerer spell slot even if he is also a Sorcerer 6.

Except nowhere does it state that you need a bard spell slot.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

The issue remains that, when you emulate class spell list access, the Knowstone only gives you that spell known for the class you emulated. Because, again, you need to cast it from a spell slot of the appropriate class. Just like a Bard casting glibness has to use a Bard spell slot to cast it; he can't use a Sorcerer spell slot even if he is also a Sorcerer 6.

It's obvius.

A gestalt Bard 20/ Favored Soul 20. We cant use Bard "Gibliness" spell using favored soul daily spell slots.
If have no more bard daily spell, you cant use Gibliness! favored soul daily slots cant be used here.

[Segev]

Except nowhere does it state that you need a bard spell slot.

It states that you cast it out of a different level spell slot depending on what class you are.

If you're not of a class that has the spell on its list, you don't have a spell slot for it.

What level spell slot is glibness on the Sorcerer list?

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

It just has to be on your list. It doesn't state anywhere in it's text that it has to come from the bard slot. If you UMD the knowstone you can emulate the bard list. Since the spell is now on "your" list "you" can cast it. You don't need a bard slot. By the RAW terminology you meet the criteria needed to cast the spell. It outright states "As long as the spell is on your list and you can cast spells of it's level." Can your sorcerer cast spells that are at Glibness level? Did you emulate the bard list? You're done at this step.
.

Knowstone sentence, Cast that spell normally. Using Bard spell with Sorcerer Slot is not casting that spell normally.

[Dagroth]

Wrong,
Wand of Glibness expend spells slots. UMD work well with it.
Knowstones, not. The Sorcerer still cant cast "Glibness", because he still dont qualify to cast it or bard spell slots avaiable.

A Wand doesn't expend spell slots, it expends charges. The UMD effect one uses to make a Wand work is "emulate a class feature" (not by coincidence, the same DC as "use a wand"). You are emulating the wand's requirement of "having the spell on your class's spell list". Just like you'd use UMD to emulate the Knowstone's requirement of "having the spell on your class's spell list".

Again, note that the requirement is not "being able to cast Bard Spells" or whatever... it's "having the spell on your class's spell list".

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

A Wand doesn't expend spell slots, it expends charges. The UMD effect one uses to make a Wand work is "emulate a class feature" (not by coincidence, the same DC as "use a wand"). You are emulating the wand's requirement of "having the spell on your class's spell list". Just like you'd use UMD to emulate the Knowstone's requirement of "having the spell on your class's spell list".

Again, note that the requirement is not "being able to cast Bard Spells" or whatever... it's "having the spell on your class's spell list".
Expending Charges or Spell slots, It allow the spell be casted. Knowstone use your daily spells, but you dont have any.

[Rhyltran]

It states that you cast it out of a different level spell slot depending on what class you are.

If you're not of a class that has the spell on its list, you don't have a spell slot for it.

What level spell slot is glibness on the Sorcerer list?

The example provided is without the use of UMD. I'd argue if the sorcerer has a spell on his list that another class has at their list a lower level, if he chooses to use UMD on the Knowstone, he can then cast the spell theoretically from a lower level spell slot. In the example here, let's use crushing despair, the bard can cast it at level 3. The sorcerer would have to cast 4th level spells. However, if he used UMD to emulate the Bard's list, he should be able to cast it from a level 3 slot as a bard would. This part is a bit complicated if it's on your own list, however, and would be open to interpretation.

[Psyren]

Except nowhere does it state that you need a bard spell slot.

You do because you cannot use the bard spells feature that you emulated, per UMD. So you only have your own sorcerer slots to use, none of which can cast Glibness.

The reverse is true - if a Bard UMDs a knowstone of Arcane Fusion, he gains the Sorcerer's "spells" feature, but cannot use it to cast anything.

[Pux]

My friend linked me this thread and I had to create an account to comment. I am an avid lover of shenanigans. But it seems to me that there is a part of the sorcerer casting section that is being ignored.
"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must"
So once the knowstone is attuned no further checks would be needed. I am not certain what level spell slot he would need for it.

Arcane fusion seems like a much worse situation. Using it from a runestaff would be possible with a umd check. The problem is the spell description requires that you know 2 sorceror spells. These could come from that same runestaff with two more UMD checks or even some knowstone. But it seems without two sorceror spells known to combine the spell would do anything meaningful.

[Segev]

The example provided is without the use of UMD. I'd argue if the sorcerer has a spell on his list that another class has at their list a lower level, if he chooses to use UMD on the Knowstone, he can then cast the spell theoretically from a lower level spell slot. In the example here, let's use crushing despair, the bard can cast it at level 3. The sorcerer would have to cast 4th level spells. However, if he used UMD to emulate the Bard's list, he should be able to cast it from a level 3 slot as a bard would. This part is a bit complicated if it's on your own list, however, and would be open to interpretation.

You can argue it, but it's not supported. It would be a perfectly fine house rule for a DM who wanted to allow it. But it's not what the rules actually say.

The rules for UMD let you emulate the class feature of "having access to the [class] spell list."

The Knowstones let you treat the inscribed spell as a spell known if you have access to it on a class spell list.

The Knowstone rules call out that the level of slot required depends on what class you're casting it as.

Having emulated the access to [class] spell list, the Knowstone now lets you use the spell as if it were part of your [class] known spells. Unfortunately, you do not have any actual spell slots for that class.

Again, this is no different than you gaining a spell known as a Bard and being unable to expend Sorcerer spell slots to cast it, even if your multiclass Sorcerer/Bard has Sorcerer spell slots of the appropriate level.

In order for the Knowstone to let you cast a [class] spell from spell slots granted by another class, it would have to have text saying it adds the spell to your class spell list, which would then enable the spell slots for that class to be expended to cast it.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

You do because you cannot use the bard spells feature that you emulated, per UMD. So you only have your own sorcerer slots to use, none of which can cast Glibness.

The reverse is true - if a Bard UMDs a knowstone of Arcane Fusion, he gains the Sorcerer's "spells" feature, but cannot use it to cast anything.

Yes, you we can't USE bard spells feature, only simulate.
Without Bard spells slots, "Glibness" knowstones is useless

[Psyren]

In order for the Knowstone to let you cast a [class] spell from spell slots granted by another class, it would have to have text saying it adds the spell to your class spell list, which would then enable the spell slots for that class to be expended to cast it.

Exactly. I don't know why this is so difficult (for some folks) to grasp.

[Dagroth]

And I say that the Class Feature is "having said spell on your class list" After all, Glibness isn't only a Bard spell. It's also a Beguiler spell. (And I think a Jester spell... but that's April Fool's content.)

[SangoProduction]

Be a warmage. Use Magic Device DC #ERROR to emulate a class feature "Has this spell casting list". Do it for every class. Congratulations, you can now cast every spell from every list spontaneously for an hour and failing the check every hour doesn't have consequences because you can just do it again!

Of course, nobody would ever allow this to happen, but it does use the same exact logic as adding inaccessible spells to your spells known with knowstones.

Of course, for the price of not getting X item.

[Deophaun]

What's all this talk about a list?

A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
"any spell he knows," not "any spell on his list that he knows."

The list argument is a red herring.

[ijon]

My friend linked me this thread and I had to create an account to comment. I am an avid lover of shenanigans. But it seems to me that there is a part of the sorcerer casting section that is being ignored.
"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must"
So once the knowstone is attuned no further checks would be needed. I am not certain what level spell slot he would need for it.

yeah I went down that line of thinking

that's the problem, all the knowstone says is that you know the spell now. it doesn't say it know the spell from a given spell list, or at a given spell level - it lacks that information entirely. the example it gives with crushing despair makes it clear enough.

you can emulate having a spell list all you want with UMD, but when the knowstone says you now know the spell, you still can't use that spell list since you don't really have it.

in other words, it's doing this:
for spellList in player.spellLists():
classSpell = spellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setSpellKnown(classSpell, True)


rather than this:
classSpell = arbitrarySpellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setKnownSpell(classSpell, known=True)


------

and to address the "but the sorcerer just says he can cast any spell he knows" argument: okay, but at what spell level? spells don't have a default spell level; they have a spell level for each list they're in. the spell level and the spell list are inextricable, and therefore, you need the spell on a spell list you can access in order to cast it.

but the RAW does say he draws primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. it's technically open so that the sorcerer can use any list. so can the sorcerer learn and cast haste using the trapsmith's list? or cast divine power as an arcane spell, using the cleric's list?
if you say yes, then the sorcerer can cast any spell from a knowstone. if you say no, then he can't.

either way, the other way around - bard casting sorcerer spells - can't happen, because the bard only has access to the bard spell list.

[Segev]

What's all this talk about a list?


"any spell he knows," not "any spell on his list that he knows."

The list argument is a red herring.

So, then, a Bard/Sorc can use his Sorc spell slots to cast Bard spells, and vice-versa? And a Sorc/Wizard can use Sorc slots to cast any spell in his Wizard spellbook? (Those explicitly count as "spells known" for the wizard.)

[Psyren]

Even if he reads it that way, that just means the first and second sentence contradict each other and therefore it's down to GM adjudication.

[Dagroth]

yeah I went down that line of thinking

that's the problem, all the knowstone says is that you know the spell now. it doesn't say it know the spell from a given spell list, or at a given spell level - it lacks that information entirely. the example it gives with crushing despair makes it clear enough.

you can emulate having a spell list all you want with UMD, but when the knowstone says you now know the spell, you still can't use that spell list since you don't really have it.

in other words, it's doing this:
for spellList in player.spellLists():
classSpell = spellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setSpellKnown(classSpell, True)


rather than this:
classSpell = arbitrarySpellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setKnownSpell(classSpell, known=True)


------

and to address the "but the sorcerer just says he can cast any spell he knows" argument: okay, but at what spell level? spells don't have a default spell level; they have a spell level for each list they're in. the spell level and the spell list are inextricable, and therefore, you need the spell on a spell list you can access in order to cast it.

but the RAW does say he draws primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. it's technically open so that the sorcerer can use any list. so can the sorcerer learn and cast haste using the trapsmith's list? or cast divine power as an arcane spell, using the cleric's list?
if you say yes, then the sorcerer can cast any spell from a knowstone. if you say no, then he can't.

either way, the other way around - bard casting sorcerer spells - can't happen, because the bard only has access to the bard spell list.

This is why you UMD it. You trick the Knowstone into believing you can cast Bard Spells and that your Spell Slots are Bard Spell Slots.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

yeah I went down that line of thinking

that's the problem, all the knowstone says is that you know the spell now. it doesn't say it know the spell from a given spell list, or at a given spell level - it lacks that information entirely. the example it gives with crushing despair makes it clear enough.

you can emulate having a spell list all you want with UMD, but when the knowstone says you now know the spell, you still can't use that spell list since you don't really have it.

in other words, it's doing this:
for spellList in player.spellLists():
classSpell = spellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setSpellKnown(classSpell, True)


rather than this:
classSpell = arbitrarySpellList.find(knowstone.baseSpell)

if classSpell is not None:
player.setKnownSpell(classSpell, known=True)


------

and to address the "but the sorcerer just says he can cast any spell he knows" argument: okay, but at what spell level? spells don't have a default spell level; they have a spell level for each list they're in. the spell level and the spell list are inextricable, and therefore, you need the spell on a spell list you can access in order to cast it.

but the RAW does say he draws primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. it's technically open so that the sorcerer can use any list. so can the sorcerer learn and cast haste using the trapsmith's list? or cast divine power as an arcane spell, using the cleric's list?
if you say yes, then the sorcerer can cast any spell from a knowstone. if you say no, then he can't.

either way, the other way around - bard casting sorcerer spells - can't happen, because the bard only has access to the bard spell list.

That's true.... The Sorcerer are not limited to Sorcerer/Wizards list... By RAW he can use Knowstones to learn bard spells...


WTF, Bards is so bad, someone help me creat a optimized bard build?

[ATHATH]

Bards aren't bad, Sorcerers and other primary casters just happen to be really good if optimized to a high degree.

Have a handbook:
http://www.joshuad.net/new-bard-handbook/

I think that looking at the Tier System might do you some good:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0

Note that the Tier List is NOT supposed to (and advises against) convince you to only play tier 1s. Instead, it is meant to prevent things like what's happening in/happened to your game from happening- PCs having radically different power-levels. Generally, a good guideline is to have everyone be within one or two tiers of each other. Tier 3 (and below, if you have some good optimizers in your group) tends to be the tier at which most people find the game most enjoyable.

Someone should probably explain this better than I did, because I don't want to steer down the wrong path/confuse Sr Gaspar Livin.

[Thurbane]

That who line about Sorcerers drawing "primarily" from the Wizard spell list is one of the most poorly defined things in 3.X.

The arguments I've sen it cause drive me to despair.

There's no RAW behind it,and everyone has their own take on RAI.

[ijon]

This is why you UMD it. You trick the Knowstone into believing you can cast Bard Spells and that your Spell Slots are Bard Spell Slots.

trick it into thinking you have any and every spell list, it doesn't matter. the knowstone merely grants you knowledge of the spell, not from any particular list; it's up to your spell lists to give you the required spell level info to cast it.

so if you're multiclassing and you have the same spell in multiple lists, the knowstone would let you access it in all of those lists. but if it's not in any of your spell lists... well, you can't really do much with it, can you?

[Keral]

I still haven't decided which side to agree with should the problem ever arise at my table. But then Sango started his thread and TheBrassDuke linked to another where I found that

this

With the DM’s permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).

contraddicts this


A bard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the bard spell (page 181) list.


It seems to me that the more this issue gets dissected, the more inconsistencies arise. To the point where it seems there can't be an univocal RAW answer.


From what I could understand, one of the main reasons against Bards using knowstones for other classes' spells is Psyren's (I think it was him) argument that Bards can only cast from their class spell list. And that the wording on knowstones is that they are added to spells known but not to the list.
But then the PHB esplicitly says that Bards, as well as sorcerers, can learn spells from other lists. Provided they're still arcane in origin.


It's still a strong argument, but then the first quote gives some strenght to the "it's on his spells known list so he can cast it" argument as well.

[Psyren]

I still haven't decided which side to agree with should the problem ever arise at my table. But then Sango started his thread and TheBrassDuke linked to another where I found that

this


contraddicts this




It seems to me that the more this issue gets dissected, the more inconsistencies arise. To the point where it seems there can't be an univocal RAW answer.

I don't see a contradiction between "You can do X," and "With the DM 's permission, you can also do Y."

[Segev]

From what I could understand, one of the main reasons against Bards using knowstones for other classes' spells is Psyren's (I think it was him) argument that Bards can only cast from their class spell list. And that the wording on knowstones is that they are added to spells known but not to the list.
But then the PHB esplicitly says that Bards, as well as sorcerers, can learn spells from other lists. Provided they're still arcane in origin.


It's still a strong argument, but then the first quote gives some strenght to the "it's on his spells known list so he can cast it" argument as well.

The issue, for me, isn't that Bards can "only" cast from their class list. It's that you need something in the specific rules of whatever is expanding your casting that says it allows you to cast it - either by adding it to your unique version of the class list, or in spite of it not being on your class list.

Runestaves work by saying the item casts it, not you; you just have to provide an appropriate spell slot.

Various classes and class features expand spell access by explicitly adding spells to your personal version of a class list.

The issue is the same rule that prevents a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 from casting glibness, which he knows from his Bard spells known, using a Sorcerer 3rd level spell slot. It has little to do with "Bards can only cast from their list." Not nothing, but little.

Instead, it's that Knowstones only work if you already have the spell on your class list. When you UMD to fake having access to a spell list with the spell on it, the Knowstone happily gives you access to it as a spell known. So, for a Knowstone of glibness, your Sorcerer 10 has essentially tricked the Knowstone into thinking you're a Bard X/Sorcerer 10 (where X is your UMD result minus 20), and the Knowstone has allowed you to treat glibness as a known Bard spell.

But just like a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who legitimately knows glibness but is out of 3rd level Bard spell slots for the day, you can't cast glibness, even though you know it and have 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots available.

Nothing in UMD nor the Knowstone says that you can add the Bard spell to your Sorcerer spells known. You had to emulate being a Bard and having Bard spells known as a class feature to get the Knowstone to grant you the spell in it, so it's treated as a Bard spell known.

[Keral]

Well I do, you said that a bard wouldn't get to use umd and knowstones because bards only cast from the bard spell list. While here it calls out to bards having the same exception sorcerers have.

It clearly points back to sorcerer's spellcasting lifting the limit of the "only from bard's spell list".


Perhaps I'm missing something, but how can you claim that x doesn't work because of y when y doesn't seem to be true/consistent even in the same book? I would think that y is not valid, or at least not so ironclad to argue the RAWness of the argument.

As I said it's still a strong argument, but it has holes. Holes that give strenght to the opposite argument to the point where I'm uncertain which is stronger.

Edit:


Nothing in UMD nor the Knowstone says that you can add the Bard spell to your Sorcerer spells known. You had to emulate being a Bard and having Bard spells known as a class feature to get the Knowstone to grant you the spell in it, so it's treated as a Bard spell known.


Wait. I don't have Dragon magazine so I'm working from what has been posted here about knowstones.


A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells)

Now, the PHB clearly says that Bards, as well as sorcerers, have the ability to learn spells from other sources. And, in fact, from what I can tell the knowstones do exactly this, the spell is treated as if it where on your known list. So a bard can cast the spells on his spells known list, even if they are not in the bard's class spell list.

This couldn't work if we apply the rule "bards cast spells from the bard class spell list", but this rule is inconsistent with page 179 of PHB, which says bards are like sorcerers in that they can learn spells not on their class list.
Unless we go with the nonsensical interpretation that yes, they do learn spells from outside their list but can't cast them. Which might even be RAW but it's deeply flawed.

[Psyren]

While here it calls out to bards having the same exception sorcerers have.

Yes - "with the DM's permission." Do you not see how/why that matters?

[Segev]

Well I do, you said that a bard wouldn't get to use umd and knowstones because bards only cast from the bard spell list. While here it calls out to bards having the same exception sorcerers have.

It clearly points back to sorcerer's spellcasting lifting the limit of the "only from bard's spell list".


Perhaps I'm missing something, but how can you claim that x doesn't work because of y when y doesn't seem to be true/consistent even in the same book? I would think that y is not valid, or at least not so ironclad to argue the RAWness of the argument.

As I said it's still a strong argument, but it has holes. Holes that give strenght to the opposite argument to the point where I'm uncertain which is stronger.

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing what you think I am.

Ask yourself this: Can a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows charm person as a Bard, but not as a Sorcerer, cast charm person by expending a 1st level Sorcerer spell slot? Conversely, if he knew charm person as a Sorcerer but not as a Bard, could he cast it by expending a 1st level Bard spell slot?

If that same Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 knows glibness as a third level Bard spell, but he's used up all his Bard spell slots of third level and higher for the day, can he expend a 3rd level Sorcerer spell slot to cast glibness? What if he knows fireball as a Sorcerer spell; can he expend a 3rd level Bard spell slot to cast that evocation?

[lbuttitta]

Be a warmage. Use Magic Device DC #ERROR to emulate a class feature "Has this spell casting list". Do it for every class. Congratulations, you can now cast every spell from every list spontaneously for an hour and failing the check every hour doesn't have consequences because you can just do it again!

Of course, nobody would ever allow this to happen, but it does use the same exact logic as adding inaccessible spells to your spells known with knowstones.

Use Magic Device only allows you to activate magic devices as though you had the class feature/alignment/etc. It doesn't grant you the ability to use that class feature. However, for the purposes of activating that item, there is no difference between a successful Use Magic Device check and actually having the class feature.
So, this trick should work. However, there's nothing stopping you from using the trick in kind and using a knowstone to get sorcerer/wizard-only spells on your spell list.

Note: Apologies if I missed something, I didn't go through the entire thread. This is just how I understood Use Magic Device to work.

[Cosi]

Someone should probably explain this better than I did, because I don't want to steer down the wrong path/confuse Sr Gaspar Livin.

The Tier System ranks classes by a combination of things you don't care about -- how many broken tricks they can pull, and how much crap JaronK lets them get away with in his games. As it turns out, the rankings are still okay, because classes with more broken tricks are generally also more powerful, and no amount of shenanigans you can pull will make a Fighter beat a real character, but there are some stupid things. For example, the Archivist, Artificer, and Erudite all basically have "as much power as the DM lets you convince him to give you", the Factotum is trash that can't do anything effectively, and the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler are as good or better than the Sorcerer in a real game. But mostly it's a pretty good ranking of class power.


trick it into thinking you have any and every spell list, it doesn't matter. the knowstone merely grants you knowledge of the spell, not from any particular list; it's up to your spell lists to give you the required spell level info to cast it.

The relevant section is here:


Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level. For example, a bard may cast crushing despair from a knowstone of crushing despair if he can cast 3rd-level spells, whereas a sorcerer must be able to cast 4th-level spells to employ a knowstone of that spell.

That says that you have to be a spontaneous caster to use the Knowstone (a class feature that can be emulated), and that once you activate it, you have to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level. Not "Sorcerer Spells of the appropriate level" or "Bard Spells of the appropriate level". Just "spells". It works like this:

1. You activate the Knowstone as some kind of spontaneous caster.
2. It looks up what level its spell is on that list.
3. You can cast the spell with the appropriate slot.

The check it does against your spell list is at activation time, when it determines what level the spell is for you. It doesn't check when used.


The issue, for me, isn't that Bards can "only" cast from their class list. It's that you need something in the specific rules of whatever is expanding your casting that says it allows you to cast it - either by adding it to your unique version of the class list, or in spite of it not being on your class list.

The only quote that supports this interpretation is very clear that Bards only cast spells from the one, canonical Bard Spell List. It does not make any provision for list expansion of any kind. You can add all the spells you want to "your class list", but that does not put them on the Bard Spell List -- where they are required to be for you to cast them. You have to choose. Either Knowstones work, or people can't expand their lists. There is no third option based on the cited text.

Again, here's some text:


A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells).

There's no linguistic difference between what a Knowstone is doing and what any other list expansion feature is doing in terms of where the spell ends up. If you can cast a known non-Bard spell because you are a Wyrm Wizard, you can cast a known non-Bard spell because you activated a Knowstone. If you can't cast the Knowstone spell, you can't cast the Bard spell.

I don't think the interpretation being advanced here is necessarily unsupportable. It's a valid reading of the text, but it has implications that its proponents refuse to accept because those implications are obviously stupid and cripplingly bad for the rest of the game. If Knowstones don't work, Prestige Domains, Sand Shaper, Runestaves, Advanced Learning, and anything else that gives you non-class spells ceases to function.

[Keral]

Yes - "with the DM's permission." Do you not see how/why that matters?



Yes, but everything you do is with the DM's permission. In my opinion it doesn't change anything. And in fact that paragraph then refers you back to page 54, where no such caveat exists.




Ask yourself this: Can a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows charm person as a Bard, but not as a Sorcerer, cast charm person by expending a 1st level Sorcerer spell slot? Conversely, if he knew charm person as a Sorcerer but not as a Bard, could he cast it by expending a 1st level Bard spell slot?

If that same Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 knows glibness as a third level Bard spell, but he's used up all his Bard spell slots of third level and higher for the day, can he expend a 3rd level Sorcerer spell slot to cast glibness? What if he knows fireball as a Sorcerer spell; can he expend a 3rd level Bard spell slot to cast that evocation?



I'm sorry, but I don't think it's the same thing at all.

In one case, you're using UMD to convince the knowstone you have a certain spell list, say the sorcerer's. But then, from the way it's worded, once you've succeded the UMD check, the knowstone adds it to your spells know for the class you get spellcasting from, so the bard.

The way I see it, in the Bard 10/sorcerer 10 example, you essentially have two distinct spells known list for the two different sources granting you spellcasting. So no, you can't use sorcerer's spells slots to cast glibness because it's on your bard spells known not on your sorcerer spells know.



I'm not trying to argue that my interpretation is more right (righter?) than yours or the other posters', I just wanted to point out that in light of what I found on page 179, in my opinion one of Psyren's arguments wasn't so strong as I thought yesterday while I was reading the thread.

[lord_khaine]

Instead, it's that Knowstones only work if you already have the spell on your class list. When you UMD to fake having access to a spell list with the spell on it, the Knowstone happily gives you access to it as a spell known. So, for a Knowstone of glibness, your Sorcerer 10 has essentially tricked the Knowstone into thinking you're a Bard X/Sorcerer 10 (where X is your UMD result minus 20), and the Knowstone has allowed you to treat glibness as a known Bard spell.

Well.. im sold on that argument. Sounds logical enough.


Yes, but everything you do is with the DM's permission. In my opinion it doesn't change anything. And in fact that paragraph then refers you back to page 54, where no such caveat exists.


No? if you do that your not playing d&d but something systemless, that has no bearing on this discussion.
If your playing d&d then there is a basic set of rules. Your GM than then decide to bend or adjust those as he sees fit, but if he does that then your moving into homebrew, and that again has no relevance for an online discussion about the rules, where one need to assume minimum GM inteference.

[Psyren]

Yes, but everything you do is with the DM's permission. In my opinion it doesn't change anything.

Exactly - by adding that clause to the line you quote, they're effectively saying that's not the default situation. "Here are the spells you can cast" says your first quote, followed by "rule zero lets you learn others." There's no contradiction, any more than custom items contradict printed ones.


No? if you do that your not playing d&d but something systemless, that has no bearing on this discussion. If your playing d&d then there is a basic set of rules. Your GM than then decide to bend or adjust those as he sees fit, but if he does that then your moving into homebrew, and that again has no relevance for an online discussion about the rules, where one need to assume minimum GM inteference.

Correct.

[Dagroth]

You are not using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking you have access to the Bard Spell List... you are using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking the spell is on your list.

Now, I will give you that casting a spell that is on multiple lists in a lower spell slot is... iffy at best. But the other use, I can't see any issue with.

[Psyren]

You are not using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking you have access to the Bard Spell List... you are using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking the spell is on your list.

Thing is, no one is disputing that. You have successfully tricked the knowstone into imparting the spell, everybody agrees on this. The problem is the clause in UMD that you cannot actually use the class feature that you're emulating. You cannot use your virtual list or virtual slots (whatever you want to call it) to actually cast the spell the knowstone taught you, any more than you could use your sorcerer slots to cast a bard-only spell if you were a multiclass character. That's all Segev and I are saying.

[Keral]

No? if you do that your not playing d&d but something systemless, that has no bearing on this discussion.
If your playing d&d then there is a basic set of rules. Your GM than then decide to bend or adjust those as he sees fit, but if he does that then your moving into homebrew, and that again has no relevance for an online discussion about the rules, where one need to assume minimum GM inteference.

Uh, that came out wrong. It was supposed to be a bit of a hyperbolic statement but well.

What I meant to say is, I guess, that rule 0 already exists and I don't think it's necessary to have continuous reminders here and there. So in my opinion, in this case it's actually telling you that sorcerers/bards CAN learn other spells but the player should be advised that the DM can veto it. As opposed to it telling you that by using rule 0 the DM can allow you to learn other spells.

Which may sound like the same thing but it's really not. At least the way I see it.

[Dagroth]

Thing is, no one is disputing that. You have successfully tricked the knowstone into imparting the spell, everybody agrees on this. The problem is the clause in UMD that you cannot actually use the class feature that you're emulating. You cannot use your virtual list or virtual slots (whatever you want to call it) to actually cast the spell the knowstone taught you, any more than you could use your sorcerer slots to cast a bard-only spell if you were a multiclass character. That's all Segev and I are saying.

Can you use UMD to convince a Wand that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.
Can you then use said Wand just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Yes.

Can you use UMD to convince a Knowstone that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.
Can you then use said Knowstone to cast that spell just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Why not?

When you use UMD on a passive item, you only need to make the check 1/hour. You're not trying to trick the Knowstone every time you cast the spell... you're only trying to trick the Knowstone when you attune it and to keep it tricked. You're not "telling" the Knowstone "I'm a Bard". You're "telling" the Knowstone "That spell is one I could cast".

[Psyren]

Uh, that came out wrong. It was supposed to be a bit of a hyperbolic statement but well.

What I meant to say is, I guess, that rule 0 already exists and I don't think it's necessary to have continuous reminders here and there. So in my opinion, in this case it's actually telling you that sorcerers/bards CAN learn other spells but the player should be advised that the DM can veto it. As opposed to it telling you that by using rule 0 the DM can allow you to learn other spells.

Which may sound like the same thing but it's really not. At least the way I see it.

Except it doesn't say "You can do this but the DM can veto it." It says "With the DM's permission." Meaning, you must get permission before you can do it. It's pretty clear.


Can you use UMD to convince a Wand that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.
Can you then use said Wand just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Yes.

Can you use UMD to convince a Knowstone that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.
Can you then use said Knowstone to cast that spell just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Why not?

Your analogy isn't relevant - UMD has a specific, separate function for activating wands. When you UMD a wand, you're not using this line:

"Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)."

Rather, you're using this one:

"Use a Wand
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs."

Note the second bold in fact - this too does not actually add the spell to your list, it just lets you use the wand as though you did. Nor are you using any of your own spell slots to activate the wand - the wand itself is providing that function, via its charges.



When you use UMD on a passive item, you only need to make the check 1/hour. You're not trying to trick the Knowstone every time you cast the spell... you're only trying to trick the Knowstone when you attune it and to keep it tricked. You're not "telling" the Knowstone "I'm a Bard". You're "telling" the Knowstone "That spell is one I could cast".

I agree completely that that's what you're doing. You tell the Knowstone that, it believes you, and now you know the spell. You still can't cast it normally.

[Segev]

That says that you have to be a spontaneous caster to use the Knowstone (a class feature that can be emulated), and that once you activate it, you have to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level. Not "Sorcerer Spells of the appropriate level" or "Bard Spells of the appropriate level". Just "spells". It works like this:

1. You activate the Knowstone as some kind of spontaneous caster.
2. It looks up what level its spell is on that list.
3. You can cast the spell with the appropriate slot.

The check it does against your spell list is at activation time, when it determines what level the spell is for you. It doesn't check when used.The issue is this: the Knowstone gives crushing despair as an example, and points out that a Bard using it uses a 3rd level Bard spell slot, but a Sorcerer using it uses a 4th level Sorcerer spell slot.

I'm not relying on "only Bard spells for Bards."

Let's look at the Sorcerer 10/Bard 10 again. He uses a Knowstone of crushing despair to cast that spell. Does he use a 3rd level Bard slot or a 4th level Sorcerer slot? CAN he use a 3rd level Sorcerer slot? (He is not using UMD in this example.)


The only quote that supports this interpretation is very clear that Bards only cast spells from the one, canonical Bard Spell List. It does not make any provision for list expansion of any kind. You can add all the spells you want to "your class list", but that does not put them on the Bard Spell List -- where they are required to be for you to cast them. You have to choose. Either Knowstones work, or people can't expand their lists. There is no third option based on the cited text.Again, I'm not relying on that text. It has no bearing on what I'm saying.

Here's that example again to highlight what I mean:

Ask yourself this: Can a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows charm person as a Bard, but not as a Sorcerer, cast charm person by expending a 1st level Sorcerer spell slot? Conversely, if he knew charm person as a Sorcerer but not as a Bard, could he cast it by expending a 1st level Bard spell slot?

If that same Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 knows glibness as a third level Bard spell, but he's used up all his Bard spell slots of third level and higher for the day, can he expend a 3rd level Sorcerer spell slot to cast glibness? What if he knows fireball as a Sorcerer spell; can he expend a 3rd level Bard spell slot to cast that evocation?



There's no linguistic difference between what a Knowstone is doing and what any other list expansion feature is doing in terms of where the spell ends up.Yes, there is.

The Wyrm Wizard says it adds it to your spell list. For you, that spell becomes a Wizard spell. You treat it like a Wizard spell. You get to paste it in at the level it was on the list from which you stole it.

The Knowstone doesn't say it makes it part of your spell list. It says it makes it a spell you know iff it's a spell on your class list. You can use UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking you've got access to a spell list that spell is on, and it will give you access to that spell...on that list.


If you can cast a known non-Bard spell because you are a Wyrm Wizard, you can cast a known non-Bard spell because you activated a Knowstone. If you can't cast the Knowstone spell, you can't cast the Bard spell.You're missing that the Wyrm Wizard says it adds it to your class list. The Knowstone does not. The Knowstone requires you to have the spell on a class list already. It makes it a spell you know from that class list. Not from any other class list to which you might happen to have access.

Please, Cosi, examine my questions about the Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who wants to use glibness, which he knows as a Bard, via a Sorcerer spell slot. Discuss or answer them. If you can resolve that, perhaps you can prove your point.


I don't think the interpretation being advanced here is necessarily unsupportable. It's a valid reading of the text, but it has implications that its proponents refuse to accept because those implications are obviously stupid and cripplingly bad for the rest of the game. If Knowstones don't work, Prestige Domains, Sand Shaper, Runestaves, Advanced Learning, and anything else that gives you non-class spells ceases to function.The trouble is that you're wrong. The Knowstone has different language than all of those. There is a "linguistic difference."



You are not using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking you have access to the Bard Spell List... you are using UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking the spell is on your list.That's false. UMD allows you to emulate a class feature: having access to a class's spell list is a class feature. It does not allow you to cause a spell to change lists.


Can you use UMD to convince a Wand that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.
Can you then use said Wand just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Yes.Because the wand, when used, casts the spell.

A Knowstone, when used, lets you act as if you knew the spell. You can cast that spell normally, from the spell slots of the class for which you know the spell.

Again: Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who uses a Knowstone of glibness without UMD. He can cast glibness just fine from 3rd level Bard spell slots. But he can't cast it from Sorcerer spell slots.


Can you use UMD to convince a Knowstone that a spell is on your spell list? Yes.No. You can use UMD to convince a Knowstone that you have access to a spell list with that spell on it. When you use UMD on a Knowstone of glibness, you're convincing it you have access to the Bard spell list, not that glibness is a Sorcerer spell.

Can you then use said Knowstone to cast that spell just like anyone who has that spell on their spell list? Why not?You can! Pity you don't have any 3rd level Bard spell slots to cast it from. Just like a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 with glibness cannot cast it from his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots. If he's out of Bard spells of 3rd level or higher for the day, he can't cast any more glibnesses.


You're not "telling" the Knowstone "I'm a Bard". You're "telling" the Knowstone "That spell is one I could cast".This is 100% wrong. You are telling the Knowstone, "I'm a Bard." You're explicitly emulating a Bard class feature: access to the Bard spell list.

[ijon]

@cosi:

the knowstone never says it expands your spell list. the wyrm wizard's spell research feature does, in very explicit terms.
the knowstone also has no "one class only" limitation. so you just know the spell in general.

but you still need a spell level to cast a spell through a given class, which is retrieved through the class' spell list. if the spell's not in that spell list, how are you going to cast it? there aren't undefined-level spell slots.

if you added the spell to the class' spell list through wyrm wizard or what-have-you, that's fine. you now have a spell level the class can use it at.
then the knowstone fulfills the "knowing the spell" condition, and you can cast the spell with that class - provided, of course, that you meet the rest of the casting requirements.

but you can't just go "oh I know the spell thanks to my handy dandy knowstone, I'm gonna cast it from the XYZZY spell list" unless the class you're casting with can use the XYZZY spell list normally.

[Cosi]

The issue is this: the Knowstone gives crushing despair as an example, and points out that a Bard using it uses a 3rd level Bard spell slot, but a Sorcerer using it uses a 4th level Sorcerer spell slot.

It points out that if you activate it as a Bard it requires a 3rd level slot. The only time your class matters is when you activate, which determines which slot you need. That activation is subject to the rules for emulating a class feature.


Let's look at the Sorcerer 10/Bard 10 again. He uses a Knowstone of crushing despair to cast that spell. Does he use a 3rd level Bard slot or a 4th level Sorcerer slot? CAN he use a 3rd level Sorcerer slot? (He is not using UMD in this example.)

Can a multiclass Rogue/Fighter still make Sneak Attacks with Greatswords even though Rogues aren't proficient with them? Of course he can! If you can supply the appropriate pieces, you can combine them in any legal way. If you have a spell list (either emulated or natively) that contains the spell in a Knowstone at a given level, you can activate that Knowstone with a slot of that level.


The Wyrm Wizard says it adds it to your spell list. For you, that spell becomes a Wizard spell. You treat it like a Wizard spell. You get to paste it in at the level it was on the list from which you stole it.

That is not sufficient to create a difference. The only basis in text that has been presented for your argument is the exclusivity of the Bard Spell List as a source of spells Bards can cast. The cited line will not allow you to have a Bard spell that other Bards do not have. Period.


The Knowstone doesn't say it makes it part of your spell list. It says it makes it a spell you know iff it's a spell on your class list. You can use UMD to trick the Knowstone into thinking you've got access to a spell list that spell is on, and it will give you access to that spell...on that list.

It says that if the spell is on your list (activation requirement, can be emulated), you can use an appropriate slot to cast it. If you emulate having a list that is not your list, you can cast the spell from a slot appropriate to its level on that list.


Please, Cosi, examine my questions about the Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who wants to use glibness, which he knows as a Bard, via a Sorcerer spell slot. Discuss or answer them. If you can resolve that, perhaps you can prove your point.

Those questions aren't relevant unless you believe the quote Psyren has supplied is exclusive.

If you believe that, then all the stuff that adds spells to list breaks in one direction or another. Given that this is super obviously worse than what Knowstones are doing, we should prefer the interpretation of RAW where it doesn't happen.

If you don't believe that, then you activate a Knowstone by emulating a list, the Knowstone checks the level of its spell on that list, and adds it to your spells known at that level. You can sub-sequentially cast it.

I'm pretty sure the only way your interpretation can work is if the activation is both the adding and the casting, and in that case no-slot Knowstones are explicitly legal. There is no way to prevent Bards from using fireball Knowstones that is not worse overall. Since this case is ambiguous, we should prefer the ruling that is best for the game, and that ruling is very clearly that UMD works with Knowstones.


The trouble is that you're wrong. The Knowstone has different language than all of those. There is a "linguistic difference."

There is no linguistic difference in where the spell is. In all cases, it is a spell known that is not on the Bard Spell List (or whatever spell list your class uses). If it is legal to cast a known spell that is not on the Bard Spell List as a Wyrm Wizard, it is legal to do so after activating a Knowstone.

[Karl Aegis]

Wyrm Wizard adds a spell to your class list, but not your spells known.

Knowstone adds a spell to your spells known, but not your class list.

Lyric Thaumaturge adds a spell to your class list and your spells known.

Sand Shaper neither adds spells to your class list nor your spells known.

Runestaff neither adds spells to your class list nor your spells known.

Extra domains from prestige classes neither add spells to your class list nor your spells known. If noncleric divine caster, you may memorize one spell per day per spell level from that domain. If spellbook-using class like a wizard you may not prepare the spell from your spellbook, but you may memorize one spell per day per spell level from that domain only if you have scribed the spell into your spellbook. A spontaneous caster may choose to add a domain spell to their spells known, but not their class list whenever they may choose to add a new spell to their spells known. If you do not choose spells known as a spontaneous spellcaster you do not get to choose to add domain spells to your spells known as you have skipped the "choose spells to add to your spells known" step of extra domains. Extra domains are an exception to a general rule.

If you activate a knowstone at the time of casting the spell you do not get to activate the knowstone to attune to it. If you don't activate a knowstone to attune to it you cannot use the skill Use Magic Device to attune to the knowstone because the Action section of Use Magic Device specifically says:

Action
None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

So, if you make activate the item when you cast the spell you cannot ever attune to it if you do not have the spell on your class list. Maybe you want to rethink your argument, Cosi.

[Cosi]

Wyrm Wizard adds a spell to your class list, but not your spells known.

Knowstone adds a spell to your spells known, but not your class list.

Lyric Thaumaturge adds a spell to your class list and your spells known.

If a Bard can only cast spells on the Bard Spell List, and all Bards can learn spells from the Bard Spell List, one of the following must be true:

1. A Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge cannot cast the spells added to his list by Lyric Thaumaturge, because they are not on the Bard Spell List.
2. Any Bard may learn spells that a Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge has chosen for his Bonus Spell ability.

If neither of the above is true, "on the Bard Spell List" is not a necessary condition for a spell to be cast by a Bard who knows it. If that is the case, a Bard may freely use Knowstones of any class, provided he makes the appropriate UMD checks.

All this of course assumes that we are operating on the text Psyren cited originally. If there is other text that might limit which of your known spells you can cast, I encourage someone to cite it instead.


If you activate a knowstone at the time of casting the spell you do not get to activate the knowstone to attune to it. If you don't activate a knowstone to attune to it you cannot use the skill Use Magic Device to attune to the knowstone because the Action section of Use Magic Device specifically says:

At no point does the description of the Knowstone indicate that you cannot attune a Knowstone you can't use. Also, items can have more than one activation condition (trivially, a Staff containing multiple spells can be activated to use any of those spells).

[Karl Aegis]

Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the same language as Knowstone. Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the "normally" language in it. Lyric Thaumaturge is not casting the spell normally. The general situation does not trump the specific rule of Lyric Thaumaturge. Your argument does not apply to Lyric Thaumaturge.

[Cosi]

Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the same language as Knowstone. Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the "normally" language in it. Lyric Thaumaturge is not casting the spell normally. The general situation does not trump the specific rule of Lyric Thaumaturge. Your argument does not apply to Lyric Thaumaturge.

The parenthetical defines "normally" as "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". It would seem to me that if you can cast a spell Lyric Thaumaturge has added to your list of spells known, you can cast the same spell from a Knowstone.

Is there a more general definition of "normally" provided somewhere in the rules that I should be aware of?

[Segev]

It points out that if you activate it as a Bard it requires a 3rd level slot. The only time your class matters is when you activate, which determines which slot you need. That activation is subject to the rules for emulating a class feature.So, a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 activating a Knowstone of glibness can, without using UMD, cast glibness from a 3rd level Sorcerer spell slot. Is that an accurate conclusion from what you're arguing?



Can a multiclass Rogue/Fighter still make Sneak Attacks with Greatswords even though Rogues aren't proficient with them? Of course he can! If you can supply the appropriate pieces, you can combine them in any legal way. If you have a spell list (either emulated or natively) that contains the spell in a Knowstone at a given level, you can activate that Knowstone with a slot of that level.So, then, a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows crushing despair as a Bard spell can use his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots to cast it? If he knows glibness as a Bard, he can use his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots to cast that, too? If he knows fireball as a Sorcerer, can he use 3rd level Bard spell slots to cast that? Are his Sorcerer and Bard spell slots interchangeable?


That is not sufficient to create a difference. The only basis in text that has been presented for your argument is the exclusivity of the Bard Spell List as a source of spells Bards can cast. The cited line will not allow you to have a Bard spell that other Bards do not have. Period.I haven't touched the "bard spell list as a source" argument.

I am solely basing this on what class you know the spell as. I honestly don't care if it's "on the Sorcerer list."

Here, let me give a weird situation to illustrate: If a Sorcerer 10 (who doesn't know charm person natively) uses UMD to tell a Knowstone that he has access to the Bard spell list in order to get the Knowstone to give him charm person, he still isn't able to cast charm person with his 1st level Sorcerer spell slots for the same reason that, if he were a Bard 1/Sorcerer 10 who knew charm person as a Bard spell (but not a Sorcerer spell) couldn't use charm person except with his 1st level Bard spell slots.

Even though charm person is both a Sorcerer and Bard spell, if the character knows it as a Bard, he can't use his Sorcerer spell slots to cast it. Are you claiming otherwise? That a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows charm person as a Bard spell (but not as a Sorcerer spell) can use his 1st level spell slots granted by his Sorcerer class to cast charm person?


Those questions aren't relevant unless you believe the quote Psyren has supplied is exclusive.They absolutely are, because the quote you keep going back to from Psyren isn't relevant to my argument. Please actually read my argument and rephrase it, so I know you're really reading and parsing it as I intend, because these repeated "only relevant if you believe Psyren's quote" references indicate to me that you're not understanding what I'm saying. This would explain why you've yet to actually address what I'm saying, rather than something I am not.


If you believe that, then all the stuff that adds spells to list breaks in one direction or another. Given that this is super obviously worse than what Knowstones are doing, we should prefer the interpretation of RAW where it doesn't happen.It really doesn't. It only breaks if you interpret Knowstones the way you do, rather than as the text says.

Please examine again what I'm ACTUALLY ARGUING about how a Knowstone works.

I'm going to stop here rather than tear my hair out repeating this request. I will try once more to present my argument.

A Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows charm person as a Bard spell and who expends all his 1st level Bard spell slots for the day cannot cast charm person until he regains his spells, even if he has expended no 1st level Sorcerer spell slots yet.

When you use a Knowstone, you assert to it a class you have which has the spell it contains in its class list. It cheerfully allows you to act as if it is one of your spells known for that class. Just like the Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who is out of 1st level Bard spell slots cannot start expending Sorcerer spell slots for his Bard spells, the class you do actually have spell slots for isn't the class you've told the Knowstone you want to cast the spell as. THe spell is now on your list of spells known for a class you do not have spell slots to cast from.

It has little to nothing to do with "Bards can only cast spells from the Bard list." Unless, for you, the spell in the Knowstone qualifies as a Sorcerer spell, you can't tell the Knowstone, "Put this spell on my list of sorcerer spells known," because the Knowstone says, "But it's not a sorcerer spell for you." If you UMD to tell the Knowstone, "Okay, I have access to the Bard spell list," the Knowstone agrees, and puts the Bard spell on your list of spells known...as a Bard. Feel free to expend spell slots from the Bard class to cast it. If you don't have any...well, you can't cast it. But congratulations! You do get to act as if it were a spell you know as a Bard!

[Karl Aegis]

If you honestly have no idea how spells are normally cast you have no business arguing.

[Psyren]

Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the same language as Knowstone. Lyric Thaumaturge does not have the "normally" language in it. Lyric Thaumaturge is not casting the spell normally. The general situation does not trump the specific rule of Lyric Thaumaturge. Your argument does not apply to Lyric Thaumaturge.

Correct.

Good luck man, that's all I have to say

[Karl Aegis]

The parenthetical defines "normally" as "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". It would seem to me that if you can cast a spell Lyric Thaumaturge has added to your list of spells known, you can cast the same spell from a Knowstone.

Is there a more general definition of "normally" provided somewhere in the rules that I should be aware of?

You can cast the spell from your spell slots because it is both on your class list and in your spells known. Knowstone does absolutely nothing here. I refuse to believe that double knowing a single spell has any benefit whatsoever.

[Segev]

You can cast the spell from your spell slots because it is both on your class list and in your spells known. Knowstone does absolutely nothing here. I refuse to believe that double knowing a single spell has any benefit whatsoever.

I think the more pressing point is that every spell you know, you know as a spell belonging to a particular class. You can't cast a spell you know as a Bard using your Sorcerer spell slots. You can't prepare a spell you know as a Wizard using your Cleric spell slots (unless, you know, it also is a cleric spell and thus you know it as a cleric). You can't cast a spell you know as a Favored Soul using your Bard spell slots.

[Cosi]

Segev:

1. If animate dead is added to a Bard's list of spells known by an arbitrary effect that does only and exactly that, can he cast it?
2. If yes, why does an animate dead Knowstone's provision that it allows you to cast animate dead "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells" not apply to the Bard?
3. If no, what restriction prevents him from doing so, what specific text describes that restriction, and what effects bypass it?


So, a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 activating a Knowstone of glibness can, without using UMD, cast glibness from a 3rd level Sorcerer spell slot. Is that an accurate conclusion from what you're arguing?

Sure. And a Rogue 10/Sorcerer 10 can inflict Sneak Attack damage with scorching ray.


So, then, a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows crushing despair as a Bard spell can use his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots to cast it? If he knows glibness as a Bard, he can use his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots to cast that, too? If he knows fireball as a Sorcerer, can he use 3rd level Bard spell slots to cast that? Are his Sorcerer and Bard spell slots interchangeable?

No. The Knowstone has a very specific functionality. You put in a spell list, you get out a required slot. You expend that slot, and you get a spell.


Here, let me give a weird situation to illustrate: If a Sorcerer 10 (who doesn't know charm person natively) uses UMD to tell a Knowstone that he has access to the Bard spell list in order to get the Knowstone to give him charm person, he still isn't able to cast charm person with his 1st level Sorcerer spell slots for the same reason that, if he were a Bard 1/Sorcerer 10 who knew charm person as a Bard spell (but not a Sorcerer spell) couldn't use charm person except with his 1st level Bard spell slots.

No. Going back to the Rogue, he could apply Sneak Attack to his scorching ray (despite the fact that they come from separate classes), but his ability to use scorching ray on targets who are not flat footed would not allow him to apply Sneak Attack damage to those targets.


They absolutely are, because the quote you keep going back to from Psyren isn't relevant to my argument. Please actually read my argument and rephrase it, so I know you're really reading and parsing it as I intend, because these repeated "only relevant if you believe Psyren's quote" references indicate to me that you're not understanding what I'm saying. This would explain why you've yet to actually address what I'm saying, rather than something I am not.

Then your argument doesn't mean anything. You have lists of spells known, which are tied to spell slots. Knowstones add spells to lists. None of that implies any of your hypotheticals about Bard/Sorcerers. The Knowstone adds a spell to your non-class-specific spells known (effect), if you have the spell on your class list (activation). It does not at any time bind the list of spells known the spell is being added to to the class list used to trigger the Knowstone.


When you use a Knowstone, you assert to it a class you have which has the spell it contains in its class list. It cheerfully allows you to act as if it is one of your spells known for that class.

No. You assert a list. You get a spell level. You add the spell to a list at that level. Technically, I think this all happens during the action of casting, so I'm not sure what the net effect is in terms of your spell knowledge (for any use of a Knowstone, not just UMD).

If the Knowstone works as you describe, its activation action must be the casting of the spell, and its effect must be the spell effect. This directly dictates that (per the PHB chalice example), one can activate a Knowstone with only a UMD check. You may still be able to do this anyway, but if you can't use off-class Knowstones you absolutely can. Or Wyrm Wizards break. Dealer's choice.


If you honestly have no idea how spells are normally cast you have no business arguing.

So to be clear, your answer to "why does normally mean the thing you made up and not the thing the text says" is "you're stupid"?

What a compelling argument! I renounce my position before your wisdom! Truly, you have bested me with your depth of knowledge!

Normally is defined in the passage. It is defined as "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells" not "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells, provided it is also on his class list". You can tell, because the first thing is a direct quote from the passage and the second thing is not.

[Thurbane]

This whole debate reminds me of why a friend of mine from my 1E days calls 3E "Matrices & Modifiers" instead of D&D.

I was recently was called on to serve on a jury. Some of the arguments I've seen put forth here wouldn't seem out of place with a plucky young lawyer defending his client in a test case challenging the 1984 copyright act! :P

[Karl Aegis]

So now you are arguing an item that specifically requires you to have a spell on your spell list does not, in fact, require you to normally have a spell on your spell list. Bravo. I may have to enjoy an afternoon of reading how diving suits work in my Duff and Weed "Elements of Physics" 2nd Edition now.

[Cosi]

So now you are arguing an item that specifically requires you to have a spell on your spell list does not, in fact, require you to normally have a spell on your spell list. Bravo. I may have to enjoy an afternoon of reading how diving suits work in my Duff and Weed "Elements of Physics" 2nd Edition now.

Yes, to activate it, it requires you to have the class feature "have this spell on your class list". Fortunately, you can emulate that class feature with UMD for the purposes of activating the Knowstone.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Yes, to activate it, it requires you to have the class feature "have this spell on your class list". Fortunately, you can emulate that class feature with UMD for the purposes of activating the Knowstone.

It's not able to cast that "Class" spell normally, without "class" spell slots. Also, knowstones dont expend spells slots. You cant cast it.

[Segev]

1. If animate dead is added to a Bard's list of spells known by an arbitrary effect that does only and exactly that, can he cast it?If it adds it to his list of bard spells known, absolutely.

2. If yes, why does an animate dead Knowstone's provision that it allows you to cast animate dead "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells" not apply to the Bard?Because it didn't add it to your list of Bard spells known. You used UMD to tell it you have access to the Sorcerer spell list. The Knowstone added it to your list of Sorcerer spells known.

3. If no, what restriction prevents him from doing so, what specific text describes that restriction, and what effects bypass it?The Knowstone doesn't add the spell to an arbitrary list of known spells. It adds it to the list of spells known for the class you used to access the spell inscribed. That's what it does.


Sure. And a Rogue 10/Sorcerer 10 can inflict Sneak Attack damage with scorching ray.No, that doesn't equate. Of course a Rogue 10/Sorcerer 10 can use Sneak Attack with scorching ray; nothing says otherwise. But even you balked at the notion that a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 could cast glibness from his Bard spells known using Sorcerer spell slots.


The Knowstone has a very specific functionality. You put in a spell list, you get out a required slot. You expend that slot, and you get a spell.That's not what it does.

You assert access to a spell list that contains the inscribed spell. It adds the inscribed spell to your list of spells known for that class. You treat it in all ways like a spell you know for the class you asserted.


No. Going back to the Rogue, he could apply Sneak Attack to his scorching ray (despite the fact that they come from separate classes), but his ability to use scorching ray on targets who are not flat footed would not allow him to apply Sneak Attack damage to those targets.This...isn't a useful analogy. It doesn't track. Sneak attack applies to anything you can use that follows its rules.

You may as well be arguing that, because Psion/Wilders can use the pp granted by their Psion levels to fuel Wilder powers, and can use Wild Surge on psion powers, Bard/Sorcerers can spend Sorcerer spell slots on Bard spells. The analogies just don't work.

I'm not making an analogy; perhaps that's what you're missing. I'm saying the situations are the same.

When you use a Knowstone, you're adding a spell to your list of spells known for a specific class. That class is one which has the spell in the Knowstone on its list.

If, somehow, you had uniquely modified the Sorcerer spell list such that you counted glibness as being on said list as a level 3 spell, but you didn't have it on your list of Sorcerer spells known, you could use a Knowstone by asserting your access to your Sorcerer list to get the Knowstone to add glibness to your Sorcerer spells known.

The Knowstone doesn't add the spell to any list you happen to want. It only lets you treat the inscribed spell as one of your spells known for the class that you asserted when you activated it.


Then your argument doesn't mean anything.I'm clearly failing to explain it to you, because you're still arguing at something I'm not saying. Next time you say my argument doesn't mean anything, could you please try phrasing what you think I'm arguing in your own words, so I know what it is you think I'm saying?


You have lists of spells known, which are tied to spell slots.Absolutely. A Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 knows some spells as a Bard, and some as a Sorcerer. He can cast spells he knows as a Bard with spell slots granted by Bard, and spells he knows as a Sorcerer with spell slots granted by Sorcerer.


Knowstones add spells to lists.Incompletely specified. Depending on what you mean, this statement could be true or false.

Knowstones add the spells within them to your list of spells known for a class you have which has that spell on its class list. Nothing in their text says they add to a list of spells known for any class you have - in fact, they specifically require you to have a class which has it on their class list. By adding it to your spells known for that class, it sets the spell slot level you must expend when you cast it, because that sets the spell level.


None of that implies any of your hypotheticals about Bard/Sorcerers."Implies" is probably not the word you meant. If it was, you're misusing it. And yes, all of that applies to my discussion of Bard/Sorcerers. It's 100% relevant.


The Knowstone adds a spell to your non-class-specific spells known (effect),You have to actually prove this; nowhere in the text does it state "non-class-specific." In fact, it indicates the contrary with its emphasis on you requiring the spell be in your class list and that the class for which it lets you know it setting the spell level.


if you have the spell on your class list (activation).Again, note how you had to add text about "non-class-specific" to separate this clause from the prior. Without your added text, the class to which it adds it as a spell known is the class which has it on its spell list.


It does not at any time bind the list of spells known the spell is being added to to the class list used to trigger the Knowstone.To the contrary, it does not at any time unbind the list of spells known from the classes which grant the spell slots to cast them. It doesn't have the text you added about non-class-specific spells known. Since that is a category which doesn't generally exist, inferring its existence from nothing is a huge stretch.


If the Knowstone works as you describe, its activation action must be the casting of the spell, and its effect must be the spell effect.Not at all. Its activation adds the spell to your list of spells known for the class whose list you used to activate it. It's that simple. As long as you know it for that class, you can use that class's spell slots of the appropriate level to cast the spell.

Once you know glibness as a Bard from a Knowstone, it is no different than if you'd picked up glibness as a spell you knew as a Bard when you leveled up. I repeat: it's no different. That's why you still can't use your Sorcerer spell slots to cast it.




I think the most important detail in this exchange is that you've added "non-class-specific spells known" to the Knowstone. Nowhere does it say it does that. If that category even exists in D&D in a fashion that would allow you to cast such known spells with spell slots from any class, I'm unaware of it. Certainly, such a category's introduction via Knowstones would need to be called out in the item. Absent that, we are forced to conclude that the Knowstone grants it as a spell known for the class you used to activate it. So, no, a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who used a Knowstone to gain glibness (without using UMD) could only cast the spell from his Bard slots. Just as if he knew glibness through his standard allotment of Bard spells known.

[Cosi]

If it adds it to his list of bard spells known, absolutely.

That criterion is either meaningless, or impossible. If it just means "on the list of a Bard", it's meaningless, because any effect that adds a spell to a Bards list of spells known fits that criteria by definition. On the other hand, if it means "on the Bard Spell List", no effect can do so, as animate dead is not on the Bard Spell List.


The Knowstone doesn't add the spell to an arbitrary list of known spells. It adds it to the list of spells known for the class you used to access the spell inscribed. That's what it does.

Please cite the portion of the text that you believe best supports this claim. As far as I can see, it simply says "known spells", without restriction or clarification as to which class's known spells are referred to. Once you have accessed the spell, you may add it to any list of known spells you possess (subject, of course, to other restrictions placed on the Knowstone).


No, that doesn't equate. Of course a Rogue 10/Sorcerer 10 can use Sneak Attack with scorching ray; nothing says otherwise. But even you balked at the notion that a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 could cast glibness from his Bard spells known using Sorcerer spell slots.

Yes, because those things are not direct analogues. If I accept that an ant is an insect, must I also accept than an aunt is an insect?


You assert access to a spell list that contains the inscribed spell. It adds the inscribed spell to your list of spells known for that class. You treat it in all ways like a spell you know for the class you asserted.

It says "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". It does not say "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells for the class list it is on". Again, the text says one of those things and not the other. Please point to the specific language you believe indicates this to be the case.


This...isn't a useful analogy. It doesn't track. Sneak attack applies to anything you can use that follows its rules.

Exactly. Just as Sneak Attack can be used for any purpose which the rules allow it to be, and no other purposes, spell slots may be used for any purpose the rules allow them (such as casting prepared spells, casting spells from Knowstones, or being sacrificed for Archmage High Arcana), and no other purposes (such as casting a spell you know as a different class).


You have to actually prove this; nowhere in the text does it state "non-class-specific." In fact, it indicates the contrary with its emphasis on you requiring the spell be in your class list and that the class for which it lets you know it setting the spell level.

Absence of a restriction (in this case, no text specifying that the class added to must be the class used when activating the stone) necessarily implies that restriction does not exist. Otherwise, the functioning of all game elements is unknowable, because it is contingent on restrictions that exist without textual basis.


Again, note how you had to add text about "non-class-specific" to separate this clause from the prior. Without your added text, the class to which it adds it as a spell known is the class which has it on its spell list.

No, I said that to clarify the difference between "the class you used to activate the Knowstone" and "other spellcasting classes you might have which can use Knowstones". Without text specifically indicating that one must use a given spell list, one can use any list. If someone suggested that you may have "a book" it would be wholly absurd to assume that because they didn't specify "a book including Snow Crash" that you could not have Snow Crash.

[Cosi]

I occurs to me that I may have made things too complicated.

As I understand it, the principle objection to the Bard's use of UMD on a fireball Knowstone to cast fireball is that while the Knowstone can be UMD to add its spell to a spell list, it would add that spell not to the user's list, but to the hypothetical list of the user for whatever class he impersonated via UMD.

So emulating the "spell list" class feature of various classes won't get you anywhere (at least, given these particular assumptions). But if there was a class feature that added spells to our list, we could emulate that, and then add the spells to our list of spells known the via Knowstones. Is there such a class feature lying around? Of course there is, we've been discussing it for several pages now! It's the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research:


Starting at 2nd level, select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast. You can add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list as a spell of the same level; all other aspects of the spell remain unchanged. At every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain the knowledge and use of one additional spell in this manner.

So if we emulate Spell Research to add the appropriate spell to our list, we can activate the Knowstone to add it to our list of spells known. Given the exact wording of the Wyrm Wizard's class feature, you may need to take Arcane Preparation to get things to work, but this method would seem to avoid the principle objections that have been raised. Presumably, similar workarounds can be employed using e.g. the Contemplative's Bonus Domain, which might avoid the preparation issue.

[Segev]

That criterion is either meaningless, or impossible. If it just means "on the list of a Bard", it's meaningless, because any effect that adds a spell to a Bards list of spells known fits that criteria by definition. On the other hand, if it means "on the Bard Spell List", no effect can do so, as animate dead is not on the Bard Spell List.That criterion cannot be meaningless.

The Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows charm person as a Bard spell cannot cast it using Sorcerer spell slots. It's on his list of Bard spells known. Not his list of Sorcerer spells known.

Dismissing the criterion as meaningless or impossible means you must dismiss the notion that a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 cannot use Sorcerer spells to cast spells he used his Bard spells known slots to learn.


Please cite the portion of the text that you believe best supports this claim. As far as I can see, it simply says "known spells", without restriction or clarification as to which class's known spells are referred to. Once you have accessed the spell, you may add it to any list of known spells you possess (subject, of course, to other restrictions placed on the Knowstone).You're the one who needs to cite text to support the notion that there is such a thing as "class-independent known spells." There isn't anywhere in D&D, to my knowledge. If Knowstones are the sole example, they'd have to spell it out much more clearly.

Instead, the Knowstone calls out that you need to have a class with the spell on the class's list, and that it adds the spell to your spells known. In context, especially with it noting that the level of the spell depends on the class being used, it can only mean it's adding it to the known spells for the class used to qualify.



Yes, because those things are not direct analogues. If I accept that an ant is an insect, must I also accept than an aunt is an insect?Non sequitor. You must show that this analogy actually applies. Though we're getting into meta-analogy.

If you accept that a Bard/Sorcerer cannot use his Bard spell slots to cast fireball even if it's on his list of sorcerer spells known, then you must accept that a Bard/Sorcerer who used his Sorcerer class access to the fireball spell to get fireball as a known spell from a Knowstone cannot use his Bard spell slots to cast fireball, because the Knowstone added it to his list of spells known for Sorcerer. You dispute that last clause, claiming that it added it to some "class-independent" list of spells known, but you have no text to support the existence of such a list, let alone that the Knowstone adds to it, rather than to the list of known spells for the class that was used to activate the Knowstone.



It says "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". It does not say "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells for the class list it is on". Again, the text says one of those things and not the other. Please point to the specific language you believe indicates this to be the case.It doesn't need to say the second. It would need to say "among his known spells for any spontaneous spellcasting class" to do what you want it to. Instead, it says "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells." Well, if it were among his known spells, it would be for the class he asserted had it on its spell list. Just as the Bard/Sorcerer who adds fireball to his list of sorcerer spells known when he levels up to Sorcerer 6 doesn't get to cast fireball "as if it were one of his spells known" from his Bard list.

The language detailing how a Sorcerer or Bard casts his spells, if interpreted consistently with what you're saying this should be, would suggest that the Sorcerer just casts any spell he knows with Sorcerer spell slots...including Bard spells. But nobody reads it that way. Have we been doing it wrong all these years?


Exactly. Just as Sneak Attack can be used for any purpose which the rules allow it to be, and no other purposes, spell slots may be used for any purpose the rules allow them (such as casting prepared spells, casting spells from Knowstones, or being sacrificed for Archmage High Arcana), and no other purposes (such as casting a spell you know as a different class).The problem is that "casting spells from knowstones" isn't a category. Knowstones instead invoke "casting spells you know." Since "casting spells you know as a different class" remains forbidden, the Knowstone's assignment of the spell to a different class than the one you want to use still leaves it forbidden.

Again: you're the one who has to show me where we get this "class-independent known spells list" from. I haven't seen it defined in D&D. Until you have a convincing case for these, claiming Knowstones obviously add to it is making things up that aren't in evidence.


Absence of a restriction (in this case, no text specifying that the class added to must be the class used when activating the stone) necessarily implies that restriction does not exist. Otherwise, the functioning of all game elements is unknowable, because it is contingent on restrictions that exist without textual basis.Actually, the restriction is there. It adds it to your spells known. If it doesn't add it to a particular class's spells known, then you don't have any slots to cast the spell from, and Knowstones simply do not work. Because you can't use Sorcerer spell slots to cast spells from any list except that list of spells you know as a sorcerer.


No, I said that to clarify the difference between "the class you used to activate the Knowstone" and "other spellcasting classes you might have which can use Knowstones". Without text specifically indicating that one must use a given spell list, one can use any list.No, you added it because without it, the rules wouldn't say what you want them to. You need text specifically saying "you can use any spell slots from any class" to enable you to use spell slots granted by one class on a spell you don't know as that class.


If someone suggested that you may have "a book" it would be wholly absurd to assume that because they didn't specify "a book including Snow Crash" that you could not have Snow Crash.
Again, not analogous.

Closer would be, "You can have any DVD for which you have an appropriate region DVD player." If you use UMD to assert that you have one for a region you do not, they'll give you that DVD for that region...but you still don't have the DVD player to play it on. Even if you do have a DVD player for a different region. You'd need some further means to hack your wrong-region DVD player (analogous to your sorcerer spell slots) to play your claimed-region DVD (analogous to your glibness spell obtained from a Knowstone by telling it you had access to the Bard list).

Now, if you have mechanics which let you cast Bard spells with sorcerer spell slots, aside from not needing UMD at all, you could use UMD to assert the Bard list and get the spell from the Knowstone and use that second set of mechanics to hack your DVD's region-lock---er, to cast a Bard spell with a Sorcerer spell slot.

But you need that second set of mechanics. Simply having the Bard spell known when you don't actually have bard spell slots doesn't let you cast the Bard spell with sorcerer spell slots, any more than having the China-region DVD doesn't let you play it on your America-region DVD player. Even if you UMD'd the DVD-giver to get the China-region DVD despite its refusal to give the DVD to somebody who lacks the China-region DVD player.

[death390]

That's true.... The Sorcerer are not limited to Sorcerer/Wizards list... By RAW he can use Knowstones to learn bard spells...


WTF, Bards is so bad, someone help me creat a optimized bard build?

the trick i have found is you dont play the bard, you play a familiar/ animal companion/ cohort ect. and your bard is actualy your minion using bardic music on you . . . thats it.

[Dagroth]

Extra domains from prestige classes neither add spells to your class list nor your spells known. If noncleric divine caster, you may memorize one spell per day per spell level from that domain. If spellbook-using class like a wizard you may not prepare the spell from your spellbook, but you may memorize one spell per day per spell level from that domain only if you have scribed the spell into your spellbook. A spontaneous caster may choose to add a domain spell to their spells known, but not their class list whenever they may choose to add a new spell to their spells known. If you do not choose spells known as a spontaneous spellcaster you do not get to choose to add domain spells to your spells known as you have skipped the "choose spells to add to your spells known" step of extra domains. Extra domains are an exception to a general rule.

This is not the way the rule is written. Gaining access to Extra Domains is covered by rules in Complete Divine.

If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain’s spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level. If she is a spellcaster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must fi nd or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day. If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifi es otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

Note that the Sorcerer or Favored Soul can select the Domain Spell and add it to their spells known... and then cast it freely.

Not that the Domain Spell is added to their class list. Not that the Domain Spell is treated as a Cleric Spell. Not that the Domain Spell can only be cast once per day (like a Wizard is limited to).

The Spell from the Domain Spell list is added to the spells known and cast freely. Again, it gives them access to a "Domain Spell List" but does not give them "Domain Spell Slots" to cast with. The spell is just a spell known and cast freely.


If you activate a knowstone at the time of casting the spell you do not get to activate the knowstone to attune to it. If you don't activate a knowstone to attune to it you cannot use the skill Use Magic Device to attune to the knowstone because the Action section of Use Magic Device specifically says:

Action
None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

So, if you make activate the item when you cast the spell you cannot ever attune to it if you do not have the spell on your class list. Maybe you want to rethink your argument, Cosi.

You do not activate a Knowstone when you cast the spell on it, any more than you activate the +1 enchantment on your weapon when you swing it. The simple act of possessing the Knowstone (and attuning it for 24 hours), gives you the benefit.


If it adds it to his list of bard spells known, absolutely.
Because it didn't add it to your list of Bard spells known. You used UMD to tell it you have access to the Sorcerer spell list. The Knowstone added it to your list of Sorcerer spells known.
The Knowstone doesn't add the spell to an arbitrary list of known spells. It adds it to the list of spells known for the class you used to access the spell inscribed. That's what it does.

Again, the Knowstone doesn't add the spell to your class list... it does not say it adds it to your class list. It does say it adds it to your spells known.


When you use a Knowstone, you're adding a spell to your list of spells known for a specific class. That class is one which has the spell in the Knowstone on its list.

No, you're not. You're adding the spell to the list of spells you know. Period. Full Stop.

See the example of Extra Domains, above. A PrC that gives access to a domain is no different then using a Knowstone to gain access to a list of spells. The difference lies in the fact that the Knowstone adds the spell to the list of spells known, where with gaining a Domain means you have to use one of your "spells known" to gain the spell.

This clearly shows that if you were a Sorcerer with access to the Healing Domain, you could use a Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds without needing to UMD it and cast the spell freely. Thus, you could use UMD to emulate access to the Healing Domain (from whatever PrC) and use a Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds freely.

If this is true (which it patently is), then you should be able to use UMD to emulate access to the Bard Spell List on a Knowstone of Glibness to cast the spell freely with your Sorcerer spell slots.

[Cosi]

The Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows charm person as a Bard spell cannot cast it using Sorcerer spell slots. It's on his list of Bard spells known. Not his list of Sorcerer spells known.

If your "Bard spells known" are just the spells you know as a Bard, then any effect that adds something to your spell list allows you to cast it.


You're the one who needs to cite text to support the notion that there is such a thing as "class-independent known spells." There isn't anywhere in D&D, to my knowledge. If Knowstones are the sole example, they'd have to spell it out much more clearly.

As I'd hoped you understood, I didn't mean "spells you know external to any class", I mean "spells you know for any one of your classes". The independence here is from the list you used to activate the Knowstone, not from lists in general.


Instead, the Knowstone calls out that you need to have a class with the spell on the class's list, and that it adds the spell to your spells known. In context, especially with it noting that the level of the spell depends on the class being used, it can only mean it's adding it to the known spells for the class used to qualify.

I don't see how that follows at all. You add it to your list of spells known. If it meant "for that class", it would say "for that class". You can't assume a restriction like that. It's like saying the Wyrm Wizard's spell research only applies to your Wizard list because the class is Wyrm Wizard, not Wyrm Wu Jen. Things do the things they say, not the things you think they imply.


If you accept that a Bard/Sorcerer cannot use his Bard spell slots to cast fireball even if it's on his list of sorcerer spells known, then you must accept that a Bard/Sorcerer who used his Sorcerer class access to the fireball spell to get fireball as a known spell from a Knowstone cannot use his Bard spell slots to cast fireball, because the Knowstone added it to his list of spells known for Sorcerer. You dispute that last clause, claiming that it added it to some "class-independent" list of spells known, but you have no text to support the existence of such a list, let alone that the Knowstone adds to it, rather than to the list of known spells for the class that was used to activate the Knowstone.

No. It adds to a list that is independent of the list you used to activate the Knowstone. I admit the wording I used at first was awkward, but you're not arguing against anything here.


It doesn't need to say the second. It would need to say "among his known spells for any spontaneous spellcasting class" to do what you want it to. Instead, it says "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells." Well, if it were among his known spells, it would be for the class he asserted had it on its spell list. Just as the Bard/Sorcerer who adds fireball to his list of sorcerer spells known when he levels up to Sorcerer 6 doesn't get to cast fireball "as if it were one of his spells known" from his Bard list.

Are a Bard/Sorcerer's known Bard spells not known? Are they not his? Are they not spells? What part of their characteristics are not described by "his known spells"?


The language detailing how a Sorcerer or Bard casts his spells, if interpreted consistently with what you're saying this should be, would suggest that the Sorcerer just casts any spell he knows with Sorcerer spell slots...including Bard spells. But nobody reads it that way. Have we been doing it wrong all these years?

Quote the passages that support your assertion.


Closer would be, "You can have any DVD for which you have an appropriate region DVD player."

That is closer to what you want it to say. That is not closer to what it actually say. It says "his spells known". Your Bard spells known are spells you know, and a Knowstone may freely add its spells to them.

[Karl Aegis]

Dagroth, the text you quoted does not support your argument.


If your "Bard spells known" are just the spells you know as a Bard, then any effect that adds something to your spell list allows you to cast it.


Now I've seen everything. Bards don't get to cast every spell on their list. That's the entire point of having spells known. They cast from their spells known, chosen from their class list, unless otherwise stated.

[Cosi]

Now I've seen everything. Bards don't get to cast every spell on their list. That's the entire point of having spells known. They cast from their spells known, chosen from their class list, unless otherwise stated.

Learn some context clues man. The phrases "your classes spell list, from which you select new spells at level up" and "your personal spell list, from which you can cast spells" are both reasonably abbreviated to "spell list". If you had examined literally any of the context of that statement, it would be clear that I'm talking about the second thing.

Your gotchas would be much more effective if you read the things you talk about.

[death390]

Here is where i seem to sit on the know stone.


A Knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The Knowstone's bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the Knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered to be part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a Knowstone, provided the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level.

1. upon activating the knowstone it add the spell to your known spell list.
2. there is no singular clause in this. thus it add to ALL your known spell list.
3. it is cast normally as if among spells known.


PHB 170. Choosing a spell. First you must choose which spell to cast. If you’re a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177, and Preparing Divine Spells, page 179). If you’re a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.

PHB 28. A bard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the bard spell (page 181) list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time

PHB 54. A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time

MEANING that as long as it is in his Spells KNOWN LIST he CAN CAST IT! that is BOTH sorcerer AND bard. you literally CANNOT get andy more specific than the DIRECT QUOTE from the ABILITY itself ON its OWN class page.

[death390]

Following my own post because these are two separate arguments.

A Knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The Knowstone's bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the Knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered to be part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a Knowstone, provided the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level.

1. upon activating the knowstone it add the spell to your known spell list.
2. there is no singular clause in this. thus it add to ALL your known spell list.
3. it is cast normally as if among spells known.

ok with these 3 things out of the way using magic device to trick the knowstone is its own can of worms. emulating the bard spellcasting class feature DC 21 we seem to all agree on.

the question remains does that mean the spell known granted is at the bard spell level. i would say yes, why because that is the spellcasting class feature you fed the stone. now this means that the knowstone would spit back the slot needed for that particular version of the spell. then because that version of the spell is the one that goes on ALL SPELL KNOW lists the sorcerer could cast glibness, the bard arcane fusion or fireball. AT the spell slot cost of the emulated spellcasting class feature.



a note for the bard would be that by RAW he could cast arcane fustion BUT only the spells that could be cast are one from the sorcerer spell list that the bard knows, or the other ruling would be that sorcerer spell would be from his sorcerer known spell list.

Arcane fusion
When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know. Neither spell chosen can have a casting time longer than 1 standard action. Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level

[Dagroth]

Dagroth, the text you quoted does not support your argument.

How so?

If a Sorcerer gains the first level of Rainbow Servant, they gain the Good Domain. They do not automatically gain any of the spells listed in the Good Domain.

Assuming the Sorcerer was level 6 before he became a Rainbow Servant, when he gains the next level, he is character level 8, casting as a Level 7 Sorcerer. Going from 6th to 7th level Sorcerer adds 1 1st, 1 2nd & 1 3rd level spell to your spells known.

The Sorcerer then can choose the Good Domain spells "Protection from Evil", "Aid" & "Magic Circle Against Evil" to be his new spells known.

They are not added to the Sorcerer list, but they are now part of the character's "Spells Known" and they can cast them freely.

Which means the Sorcerer could cast "Aid" 6 (or more, given bonus spell slots due to high Cha) times a day.

Now. If the same Sorcerer did not pick any of those three spells, they would not be "spells known". However, because they are spells that are available to the Sorcerer, he could pick up a Knowstone of "Aid" and, after attuning it for 24 hours, cast the spell freely.

Or, he could not be a Rainbow Servant and simply "emulate a class feature" which in this case would be "Rainbow Servant gives the Good Domain". The Good Domain has the Aid spell in it, so now the Sorcerer can use the Knowstone of Aid to cast the Aid spell freely (using his existing spell slots), thanks to UMD.

Or he could "emulate a class feature" of "can cast Bard spells". "Bard Spells" has the spell Glibness in it. Now the Sorcerer can use the Knowstone of Glibness to cast the Glibness spell freely (using his existing spell slots).

[Segev]

You do not activate a Knowstone when you cast the spell on it, any more than you activate the +1 enchantment on your weapon when you swing it. The simple act of possessing the Knowstone (and attuning it for 24 hours), gives you the benefit.Sure, fine. Not really relevant to the point I'm making.


Again, the Knowstone doesn't add the spell to your class list... it does not say it adds it to your class list. It does say it adds it to your spells known.Agreed. This is, in fact, a key point.

It adds it to your spells known. It does not add it to any class list. This is part of the reason why you can't cast it with a spell slot granted by a class for which you do not have it on your class list.


No, you're not. You're adding the spell to the list of spells you know. Period. Full Stop.Then you have no spell slots with which to cast it. Because if you're not adding it to the spells known for a particular class, unless you have spell slots which can be used on literally any spell you know (regardless of which class grants that spell known to you), you have no spell slots which can be used to cast a spell that is known, but not for any particular class.


See the example of Extra Domains, above. A PrC that gives access to a domain is no different then using a Knowstone to gain access to a list of spells.False. A PrC that gives access to a domain gives access to the domain and spells out which spell slots you're allowed to use for it. In most cases, you get specific domain spell slots. In some, it says you cast them using an existing spellcasting class's slots. In no case does the PrC which is giving access to spells not normally on a given class's list fail to tell you that you are now able to cast that spell using slots granted by a class that wouldn't normally allow it.

The Knowstone, on the other hand, inherently assumes you're gaining the knowledge of a spell for which you already have class access and spell slots to use. It therefore has no language allowing you to use spell slots other than those belonging to the class you assert grants you access to the spell. It lets you treat it as a known spell, and even calls out that the class you know it as determines the level of spell slot it takes. Because that's the spell slot suite from which you need to draw to cast it, as you would normally do for any spell known by that class.


The difference lies in the fact that the Knowstone adds the spell to the list of spells known, where with gaining a Domain means you have to use one of your "spells known" to gain the spell.It doesn't, however, let you add it to the list of spells known for a class that you couldn't otherwise. Nor does it, despite Cosi's creative addition to the text, create a new category of "spells known, but not associated with any particular class."


This clearly shows that if you were a Sorcerer with access to the Healing Domain, you could use a Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds without needing to UMD it and cast the spell freely.The Sorcerer using the class feature that gives him access to the Healing Domain treats the Healing Domain spells as being on the sorcerer class list. He thus doesn't need to UMD the Knowstone of cure light wounds; he legitimately can use it, and the Domain tells him what level spell it is for him and thus what level slot he can use.


Thus, you could use UMD to emulate access to the Healing Domain (from whatever PrC) and use a Knowstone of Cure Light Wounds freely.Actually, this trick WOULD work. By emulating a PrC that says "treat Healing Domain spells as Sorcerer spells," he's told the Knowstone that he's a Sorcerer with cure light wounds as a Sorcerer spell. The Knowstone thus adds cure light wounds to his list of Sorcerer spells known. Because it's on his list of Sorcerer spells known, he can, in fact, cast it using Sorcerer spell slots!


If this is true (which it patently is), then you should be able to use UMD to emulate access to the Bard Spell List on a Knowstone of Glibness to cast the spell freely with your Sorcerer spell slots.Unfortunately, this is NOT true.

Note that what makes that trick above work is that you're emulating a class feature that puts the spell you want on the list of a class you have. Here, you've only emulated class access to Bard spells. You haven't emulated having the Bard spell glibness as a spell you can cast as a Sorcerer. To cast glibness from a Sorcerer spell slot, you would need to emulate a class feature that says either, "Bard spells are now sorcerer spells for you," or, "Glibness is now a Sorcerer spell for you." That's what you did with the PrC class feature: you said, "I have a class feature that makes cure light wounds a level 1 Sorcerer spell for me."


If your "Bard spells known" are just the spells you know as a Bard, then any effect that adds something to your spell list allows you to cast it.I don't know what you're trying to say, here. Given the quote to which you were replying, are you claiming that a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows, as a Bard spell, charm person, can cast charm person with a level 1 spell slot granted by the Sorcerer class, despite not having spent a spell known granted by the Sorcerer class on charm person?


As I'd hoped you understood, I didn't mean "spells you know external to any class", I mean "spells you know for any one of your classes". The independence here is from the list you used to activate the Knowstone, not from lists in general.You still need to provide precedent for there being "spells you know for any one of your classes," if you mean to say that spells you know of this sort can be cast by ANY class you have.

i.e., if charm person were on this hypothetical list of spells known that is independent of any class, a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Warmage 1/Dread Necromancer 1 could cast charm person using any 1st level spell slot from any of those classes.

If you're asserting the existence of such a list, you'll need to provide precedent for it before I'll buy that Knowstones add to it without specifically stating they create such a new, heretofore-unheard-of list of spells known that is independent of any class and can be used with spell slots granted by any class.


I don't see how that follows at all. You add it to your list of spells known. If it meant "for that class", it would say "for that class".In context, it doesn't need to say that, because there's no other class that could cast it that you have. This problem mainly arises if you're using UMD. If you're a Sorcerer using a Sorcerer spell Knowstone then the question never arises, and since that's the assumed context of its use, that's what it does. That it goes on to specify that the spell level is the level of the class it lets you know the spell as only solidifies this; it would say "you can use the lowest level spell of any class list you have it on to set its level" if it were meant to be universal to any class spell slot. Or something like that.


You can't assume a restriction like that.I'm not assuming a restriction. You're assuming an entire category of spells known that doesn't exist, inventing it out of whole cloth, to even come up with the notion that this is a "restriction." It's like saying that obviously paladins can fly if they have a Pegasus mount, because otherwise pegasi would spell out that their owners only get the benefit of flying if they're actually riding them.


It's like saying the Wyrm Wizard's spell research only applies to your Wizard list because the class is Wyrm Wizard, not Wyrm Wu Jen. Things do the things they say, not the things you think they imply.It has nothing to do with implication. It has to do with what it says. It doesn't say it lets you use it as a spell known for any spellcasting class you have. It says that it lets you use it as a spell known, cast normally, once you've identified a class you have that can cast it.

Having identified a class you have that can cast it, you can cast it normally as if you knew it. But since you only know it for a class that can cast it, you have to cast it with that class's spell slots. Because that's now they're normally cast. A Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who knows glibness as a Bard spell cannot normally cast glibness with a 3rd level Sorcerer spell. Neither can a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 who uses a Knowstone predicated on being a Bard with 3rd level spell slots use glibness from that Knowstone with 3rd level Sorcerer slots: that's not casting it normally, because knowing it as a Bard doesn't let you use Sorcerer spell slots. Neither, therefore, can a Sorcerer 10 who UMDs a Knowstone of glibness, emulating "Bard with 3rd level spell slots," use Sorcerer spell slots to cast glibness. He knows it the way a Bard does, as if it were on his Bard spells known list. Casting it normally requires Bard spell slots of 3rd level or higher.


No. It adds to a list that is independent of the list you used to activate the Knowstone. I admit the wording I used at first was awkward, but you're not arguing against anything here.So, then, your argument is that you can choose any spell list you have a class for to add it to? It's still just a Sorcerer spell known, even though you used Bard to access it?

That would work if the item said you could do that. But that's not what it says. It says you can treat it as a spell you know once you've identified a class that could know it as one you have.

If the argument you're making were valid, then being a Bard 10 and taking your 6th level of Sorcerer, you're high enough level as a Bard to learn glibness, so you could choose to learn glibness as a third level Sorcerer spell. Because you have access to it via the Bard class, and the Sorcerer class is giving you a spell known slot to fill.


Are a Bard/Sorcerer's known Bard spells not known? Are they not his? Are they not spells? What part of their characteristics are not described by "his known spells"?If I treat this argument you're implying consistently, then apparently a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 can cast any spell he knows as either a Sorcerer or a Bard using slots granted by either class. Is this the argument you really want to be making?


Quote the passages that support your assertion.

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)

That's the passage to which I'm referring, specifically the bolded part. If that isn't restricted to spells known "as a sorcerer," then the Sorcerer can actually cast any spell he knows by any class. Including Cleric! That's a massive addition to his spells known, right there, for a simple 1 level dip!


That is closer to what you want it to say. That is not closer to what it actually say. It says "his spells known". Your Bard spells known are spells you know, and a Knowstone may freely add its spells to them.It's exactly what it says. It says it gives him the spell in the knowstone as a spell known, yes. But that's predicated on him telling him what class he wants to know it as based on a class which gives him access to it. If "his spells known" is as broad as you say, then the quoted passage from the Sorcerer class above means that a Sorcerer can cast literally any spell he knows from any class using his Sorcerer spell slots. If he's a Sorcerer/Wizard, then he knows every spell in his Wizard spellbook, so obviously he can spontcast from his Sorcerer slots any spell in that spellbook. If he has Bard levels giving him Bard spells known, he can cast those from his Sorcerer spell slots, too.

This is the inescapable result of reading "spells known" as being something that is generic, and not inherently restricted to "known as a given class, defined by the context in which 'spells known' is mentioned."



PHB 28. A bard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the bard spell (page 181) list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time

PHB 54. A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time

MEANING that as long as it is in his Spells KNOWN LIST he CAN CAST IT! that is BOTH sorcerer AND bard. you literally CANNOT get andy more specific than the DIRECT QUOTE from the ABILITY itself ON its OWN class page.


So you ARE supporting the notion that a Sorcerer/Wizard can spontaneously cast any spell in his wizard spellbook? That a Bard/Sorcerer treats his spell slots as interchangeable between the two classes?

[Dagroth]

The Sorcerer using the class feature that gives him access to the Healing Domain treats the Healing Domain spells as being on the sorcerer class list. He thus doesn't need to UMD the Knowstone of cure light wounds; he legitimately can use it, and the Domain tells him what level spell it is for him and thus what level slot he can use.

Actually, this trick WOULD work. By emulating a PrC that says "treat Healing Domain spells as Sorcerer spells," he's told the Knowstone that he's a Sorcerer with cure light wounds as a Sorcerer spell. The Knowstone thus adds cure light wounds to his list of Sorcerer spells known. Because it's on his list of Sorcerer spells known, he can, in fact, cast it using Sorcerer spell slots!

Unfortunately, this is NOT true.

You are wrong and I even included the exact text from Complete Divine to show you.

The spells are not treated as Sorcerer spells. They are not added to the Sorcerer spells list. They are simply spells which a Sorcerer can choose to add to his list of known spells.


Note that what makes that trick above work is that you're emulating a class feature that puts the spell you want on the list of a class you have. Here, you've only emulated class access to Bard spells. You haven't emulated having the Bard spell glibness as a spell you can cast as a Sorcerer. To cast glibness from a Sorcerer spell slot, you would need to emulate a class feature that says either, "Bard spells are now sorcerer spells for you," or, "Glibness is now a Sorcerer spell for you." That's what you did with the PrC class feature: you said, "I have a class feature that makes cure light wounds a level 1 Sorcerer spell for me."

Again, you are not reading the text from the book.

[death390]

rules compendium 139 under other spontaneous casting.

A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class


meaning that a sorcerer can cast ANY spell he knows. period full stop. However that is talking about any spell he knows on his known spell list. it has already been stated that each casting class has its own spells known list, druid has his (all druid), sorcerer has his (ones he added), wizard has his (ones he researched, added, stole, ect), and the bard has his own.

this means that a druid 1/ wizard 10/ sorcerer 7/ bard 1 who uses a knowstone of glibness would be able to put the spell know on each of his 4 separate spells known lists. why because there is not a singular limit on knowstones! it just adds to your spells known, guess what you have 4 lists of spells known add it to them all it doesn't say you can't.

[Segev]

You are wrong and I even included the exact text from Complete Divine to show you.

The spells are not treated as Sorcerer spells. They are not added to the Sorcerer spells list. They are simply spells which a Sorcerer can choose to add to his list of known spells.My bad. You're right.

However, two things:

1) It says he's adding to his list of spells known as a sorcerer. The Domain provides the level of the spell.
2) This explicitly says, "Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely." Note that the text for that is "freely" and not "normally." Now, I could be deliberately obtuse and claim that means he does so without expending spell slots, but I won't; instead, I'll point out that "normally" the sorcerer couldn't do this unless the spell were on his spells known list as a Sorcerer.


I suppose another way to drive this home: If a Bard 7/Sorcerer 7 takes a PrC that gives access to a Domain, and chooses to learn a Domain spell when he levels up as a Sorcerer, can he cast it using his Bard spell slots?


Again, you are not reading the text from the book.
You keep making this claim, and I can make it right back at you. Heck, the book quotes I've given could be used to claim the Sorcerer can cast spells from his wizard spellbook with his sorcerer spell slots, and to read Cosi and your interpretation of Knowstones consistently, would have to.

[death390]

Segev please let me make this abundantly clear since you obviously missed the post immediatly above your new one.


rules compendium 139 under other spontaneous casting.

A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class

[Keral]

I'll jump back in for a moment.

Segev, you keep trying to make your point by using a multiclass PC example, however I do not think it's valid.

When you gain the first level into a spell casting class, you gain the "spells " class feature. When you multi class and take a level in another spellcasting class, you gain a new " spells" class feature for that class.

If we were to make a comparison that would be like two different named bonus stacking with each other. Like armor and shield bonus to AC. You have spells(sorcerer) and spells(bard).

So NO, you can't cast bard spells from sorcerer slots because those are in the spells known(bard) list and not on the spells known( sorcerer) list.


knowstone, dragon #333
A knowstone is a semi-precious stone containing the formula for casting a spell within. A typical knowstone is a small, smooth semi-precious stone inscribed with an ancient arcane symbol. The stone itself typically has a value no greater than 25 gp before the etching of the arcane symbol.

A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The knowstone’s bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level. For example, a bard may cast crushing despair from a knowstone of crushing despair if he can cast 3rd-level spells, whereas a sorcerer must be able to cast 4th-level spells to employ a knowstone of that spell.

Know stones however, don't specify which spells known list gets the added spell. So it can either be on the spells known ( emulated class) list. In which case the know stone does nothing, or in the spells known ( all your spell casting classes). Thus allowing one to cast the spell. Both seem valid interpretations to me.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Segev please let me make this abundantly clear since you obviously missed the post immediatly above your new one.


rules compendium 139 under other spontaneous casting.

A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class
Perfect.

I simulate be fake Bard, "Gilbness" Knowstones is useless if i still dont have any bard spell slot.

[death390]

sir gaspar look at my last few posts, the knowstone would apply to all of your lists of known spells or you would get to choose which list the spell goes on. the knowstone would in fact be able to allow you to learn arcane fusion as a bard or glibness as sorcerer and would be at the spell slot cost of the emulated class. meaning that if you wanted haste as the trapsmith spell you could KNOW it as a level 1 spell.

the difference is that arcane fusion uses sorcerer spells in its castings. which either means from you known sorcerer list spells or spells that come from the sorcerer spell list. meaning that on one had you can cast arcane fusion as a bard but you either can cast your bard spells that are on both the bard spell list and sorcerer spell list or you cast arcane fusion as a bard but it only lets you cast spells from the sorcerer spells known list (IE you can't get the effect without sorcerer spellcasting).

[ijon]

has anyone addressed the part where you can't cast fireball as a bard even if you somehow know it as a bard, because fireball has no defined spell level on the bard's spell list? or that you can't cast crushing despair with a sorcerer as a third-level spell because it's defined as a fourth-level spell in the sorcerer's spell list?

I can't tell because everyone replies in mile-long posts broken up with quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes

[zergling.exe]

has anyone addressed the part where you can't cast fireball as a bard even if you somehow know it as a bard, because fireball has no defined spell level on the bard's spell list? or that you can't cast crushing despair with a sorcerer as a third-level spell because it's defined as a fourth-level spell in the sorcerer's spell list?

I can't tell because everyone replies in mile-long posts broken up with quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes

That is Segev, Karl Aegis and Psyren's position. Cosi, death390, Keral and Dagroth are arguing for global knowstones or allowing them to be on any list.

If I am misrepresenting someone's argument I apologize. This is how I see each argument.

[Keral]

has anyone addressed the part where you can't cast fireball as a bard even if you somehow know it as a bard, because fireball has no defined spell level on the bard's spell list? or that you can't cast crushing despair with a sorcerer as a third-level spell because it's defined as a fourth-level spell in the sorcerer's spell list?

I can't tell because everyone replies in mile-long posts broken up with quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes replying to quotes

I don't think so. Or I missed it if it has. Either way, it seems pretty straightforward to me. The second bit is easiest: just use the correct spell level for the class you're casting it with. The same way you would if you were multiclassing and you were casting a spell that appears on both lists.


As for the first, well, it might be up to the DM to decide. But I'd say you use the spell level of the class that casts it.
The same way you would, I assume, if you were to make use of the "sorcerers and bards can cast spells not from the sor/wiz and bard list" .



That is Segev, Karl Aegis and Psyren's position. Cosi, death390, Keral and Dagroth are arguing for global knowstones or allowing them to be on any list.

I actually am of the opinion that both are valid readings, since know stones don't really specify which spell known list gets the spell. It's true however that I have mostly been arguing in favor of the second interpretation. Or rather, the interpretation that allows sorcerers and bards to use them freely as they are called out to being able to learn spells from outside their respective lists.
I agree that a cleric may not be able to use it to learn wu jen's spells since clerics are tied to class list and domains. [ Although I might allow them by house ruling, if I were to allow know stones at all, I don't really like dragon magazine, but that's neither here nor there. ]

[ijon]

well yeah it does seem straightforward; you can't reach beyond a class' spell lists to determine spell level when casting with that class. and the knowstone grants knowledge of the spell; that knowledge just happens to be useless for casting unless you're casting with a spell list containing it.

I really don't understand how this debate has gone on for so long.

[Thurbane]

At the end of the day, there are strong arguments on both sides: I'd firmly call this on a DM call.

[Rhyltran]

At the end of the day, there are strong arguments on both sides: I'd firmly call this on a DM call.

I'm of the opinion on this too. I'm on the "Knowstones work with UMD." crowd but I don't see a point in continuing this lengthy debate. The argument against it isn't going to change the ruling at my table so it doesn't matter.

[death390]

I defiantly agree with DM call. even the rules contradict each other half the time. and yes you got my position on the issue right.

on page 139 of the rules compendium there is a flat specific ALL STOP. emphasis mine.

"Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way"

by that ruling everything we do is moot, and spontaneous casters cant even use the extra spell feat to gain new spells from their own class list without Rule 0.

[ijon]

well there you have it, knowstones don't work because nothing works

thank you wotc

[Dagroth]

I actually am of the opinion that both are valid readings, since know stones don't really specify which spell known list gets the spell. It's true however that I have mostly been arguing in favor of the second interpretation. Or rather, the interpretation that allows sorcerers and bards to use them freely as they are called out to being able to learn spells from outside their respective lists.
I agree that a cleric may not be able to use it to learn wu jen's spells since clerics are tied to class list and domains. [ Although I might allow them by house ruling, if I were to allow know stones at all, I don't really like dragon magazine, but that's neither here nor there. ]

Clerics, Wizards & Wu Jen can't use Knowstones because you have to be a Spontaneous Caster.

Clerics can't use them at all, since they don't "know" their spells... they are granted their spells.

Wizards & Wu Jen could theoretically use them with UMD to "know" the spell and then memorize it for one of their spells per day using the same reasoning I gave for Sorcerers. But they could not use one to spontaneously cast the spell since their spellcasting does not work that way.


I defiantly agree with DM call. even the rules contradict each other half the time. and yes you got my position on the issue right.

on page 139 of the rules compendium there is a flat specific ALL STOP. emphasis mine.

"Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way"

by that ruling everything we do is moot, and spontaneous casters cant even use the extra spell feat to gain new spells from their own class list without Rule 0.

This is categorically wrong. Going all the way back to the DMG and the Dragon Disciple PrC, which gives new spells known to Spontaneous Arcane Casters and the Sand Shaper PrC in Sandstorm which flat-out states that Spontaneous Casters simply add the listed spells to their spells known.

[ijon]

This is categorically wrong. Going all the way back to the DMG and the Dragon Disciple PrC, which gives new spells known to Spontaneous Arcane Casters and the Sand Shaper PrC in Sandstorm which flat-out states that Spontaneous Casters simply add the listed spells to their spells known.

rules compendium takes precedence though, and "never" means "never"

(unless you argue that it doesn't have the authority to declare itself an authority, but no one wants to argue that one ever again)

[ryu]

rules compendium takes precedence though, and "never" means "never"

(unless you argue that it doesn't have the authority to declare itself an authority, but no one wants to argue that one ever again)

I dunno. For a supposed final word it seems pretty bad at handling the responsibility.

[Cosi]

I don't know what you're trying to say, here. Given the quote to which you were replying, are you claiming that a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1 who knows, as a Bard spell, charm person, can cast charm person with a level 1 spell slot granted by the Sorcerer class, despite not having spent a spell known granted by the Sorcerer class on charm person?

The original question was about whether simply adding a spell to a Bard's list of spells known allowed them to cast it. The options there are either "it always does, because 'Bard Spells Known' means the spells known of a Bard" and "it never does, because 'Bard Spells Known' means the spells you know off the Bard list". Your whole rant about Bard/Sorcerers has always been a non-sequitur.


You still need to provide precedent for there being "spells you know for any one of your classes," if you mean to say that spells you know of this sort can be cast by ANY class you have.

i.e., if charm person were on this hypothetical list of spells known that is independent of any class, a Bard 1/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Warmage 1/Dread Necromancer 1 could cast charm person using any 1st level spell slot from any of those classes.

Again, you are not reading the things I'm writing, you're reading some hypothetical thing where I agree with you. Knowstones, when activated, allow you to add their spell to any list. This is different from your known spells for a different class, because they are different things -- just like applying Sneak Attack to scorching ray and applying Sneak Attack to an illegal target.


In context, it doesn't need to say that, because there's no other class that could cast it that you have.

Yes there is. You yourself have agreed that Bards may cast animate dead if it is added ex nihilo to their spell list by some arbitrary effect which definitively does so. If that is the case, the only thing that need be shown is that Knowstones do so. Given that this is exactly what they say they do, one would assume they do so.


I'm not assuming a restriction. You're assuming an entire category of spells known that doesn't exist, inventing it out of whole cloth, to even come up with the notion that this is a "restriction." It's like saying that obviously paladins can fly if they have a Pegasus mount, because otherwise pegasi would spell out that their owners only get the benefit of flying if they're actually riding them.

No, I'm not. Simple question: if you are a (male) Bard, when speaking about you in the third person, is it valid to refer to your Bard spells known as "his spells known"? Is it still valid to do so if you are also a Sorcerer?


Having identified a class you have that can cast it, you can cast it normally as if you knew it. But since you only know it for a class that can cast it, you have to cast it with that class's spell slots.

The description does not say that. It says:


Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level. For example, a bard may cast crushing despair from a knowstone of crushing despair if he can cast 3rd-level spells, whereas a sorcerer must be able to cast 4th-level spells to employ a knowstone of that spell.

There's no reference there to "Bard Spells" or "Sorcerer Spells". There are two requirements to cast crushing despair from a Knowstone using a 3rd level slot:

1. You must be a Bard.
2. You must be able to cast 3rd level spells.

You do not have to be able to cast 3rd level Bard spells. Stop making up restrictions.


Because that's now they're normally cast.

That is not how the entry for Knowstones defines "normally". Normally means, in this context, "as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells". If you can cast spells that are among your known spells which are not on your class list for any reason, you can do so from Knowstones.


If I treat this argument you're implying consistently, then apparently a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 can cast any spell he knows as either a Sorcerer or a Bard using slots granted by either class. Is this the argument you really want to be making?

No, because the rules for spellcasting and the rules for Knowstones are different things. Again, ants and aunts.


has anyone addressed the part where you can't cast fireball as a bard even if you somehow know it as a bard, because fireball has no defined spell level on the bard's spell list? or that you can't cast crushing despair with a sorcerer as a third-level spell because it's defined as a fourth-level spell in the sorcerer's spell list?

The Knowstone says that to cast the spell from a given slot you must be a class that has that spell on its list at that level. If you emulate being such a class, you can cast it at that level.

By way of analogy, take scrolls. To activate a scroll you need to:

1. Decipher a Written Spell.
2. Use a Scroll.
3. Emulate an Ability Score.

Those are all requirements to activate a scroll with a UMD check, but if you happen to meet them "organically", you can skip those checks. For example, if your ability score is appropriate to activate the scroll, you do not need to make the check to Emulate an Ability Score.

Now, Knowstones:

1. Have the spell on your list (at level X).
2. Be able to cast spells of level X.

If you meet 2 naturally, you only need to make the check for 1. For example, if you are a Beguiler 6 and wish to activate a fireball Knowstone, you only need make the check to emulate having a class list with fireball on it at a spell level no greater than 3rd, as you can already cast 3rd level spells. Then you can use one of your slots of that level to cast it. Incidentally, for no-slot Knowstones to work, the requirements must be as follows:

1. Have the spell on your list (at level X).
2. Be able to cast spells of level X.
3. Expend a slot of level X.

Per the PHB chalice example, you can emulate 3 just fine. Doing so would allow you to activate a Knowstone without a slot, provided you made the checks or met the requirements for each of those items.


well there you have it, knowstones don't work because nothing works

As I have repeatedly pointed out, the only possible situation where Knowstones don't work is one where nothing works. Spells known are spells known are spells known.

It's disappointing that WotC choose this as the solution though. Even then, I'm pretty sure specific (any given list expansion effect) trumps general (only on level up), so maybe all the tricks still work and the passage is meaningless.

EDIT: Just to be clear, this doesn't break the exact same stuff I've talked about. For example, Advanced Learning would still seem to work, as would any effect that adds something to your list which you later learn. However, it does break other stuff. For example, under this ruling, spontaneous casters will not gain new spells known for gaining levels in PrCs, and cannot use Knowstones to cast spells on their own list. Under this ruling, Knowstones are, I believe, entirely worthless.

For this reason, and many like it, I suggest that you do not buy the Rules Compendium, and do not use it in your games. It does not resolve the most pressing issues facing the game, and those issues it does resolve are resolved in ways by far stupider and more painful than any could imagine being necessary.

[death390]

Oh i almost forgot about that runestaff comment earlier.

A runestaff allows its wielder to use her own arcane energy to generate magical effects. Typically, a runestaff has anywhere from two to fi ve spells. By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list. The spell is treated exactly as if the wielder cast the spell herself, including caster level, save DC, and any other effects related to the spell. Unless stated otherwise in the runestaff’s description, each spell can be cast from a runestaff three times per day.

as per the bolded text that beguiler psyren and co. were talking about cant cast that fireball or whatnot from the runestaff because it is not on his class spell list, unless things like knowstone or extra spell feat are used to let him already cast fireball since it is on his spell list (and beguilers Know ALL their spells on thier spell list)

[Karl Aegis]

Resolving the issue step one: What type of magic device is it? I believe the item is a continuously functioning item as described:



Continuously Functioning
Continuously functioning items are usually items that a
creature wears. A few must simply be carried, while others
are tools or weapons that provide an enhancement bonus on
certain checks or rolls. Such items don’t need to be activated.
It takes at least a standard action that provokes attacks of
opportunity to don an item of this sort, but it might take
longer, such as with magic armor.

Is there anyone that disagrees that a knowstone is a continuously functioning magic item?

[Segev]

If you "somehow have" fireball on your spells known list as a bard, the ability that told you how to add it to your bard spells known list would tell you at what level to do it. For example, Archivists can add any divine spell at all to their spells known (as defined by their prayerbook), and they do it at the level from which they got the source. So usually a scroll.

Knowstones don't have language telling you how to assign a level to the spell based on the class's list of spells you know because Knowstones require you to add the spell to a list that already has that defined. They even note that the level the spell is depends on the class you're casting it as.

At this point, I'm satisfied that people understand what I'm saying, and simply don't agree. I can't persuade people who have set opinions. If somebody reads the same sentence I am reading, and they're bound determined that the sentence clearly says to park in the white zone, and that there is no parking in the yellow zone, while I read the exact same sentence and clearly read that it's telling me to park in the yellow zone because there's no parking in the white zone, no amount of discussion will persuade each other. One of us is clearly wrong, but when we can't agree on the denotation of the words, we can't persuade each other who is using the right denotation.

So, since I'm 95% sure that people actually do know WHAT my argument is, and simply don't agree that English language means what I know it to mean, I'll be satisfied and cease arguing.

[Cosi]

The presence of an "activation" entry for a Knowstone would seem to strongly indicate it requires activation to use.


Knowstones don't have language telling you how to assign a level to the spell based on the class's list of spells you know because Knowstones require you to add the spell to a list that already has that defined.

Citation needed. Are your Bard Spells Known not spells known if you also know Sorcerer spells?


They even note that the level the spell is depends on the class you're casting it as.

No, it doesn't. That's what you want it to say. What it says is that it depends on what class you are. If you are a Sorcerer activating a crushing despair Knowstone, it requires a 4th level slot. If you are a Bard activating a crushing despair Knowstone, it requires a 3rd level slot. If you are both, you can pick. It does not say what class those slots must be from.


So, since I'm 95% sure that people actually do know WHAT my argument is, and simply don't agree that English language means what I know it to mean, I'll be satisfied and cease arguing.

In summary:

My position is that you can cast the spells on your list of spells known, whatever they happen to be. Since a Knowstone says that its spell is treated "as if the inscribed spell were among his spells known", you may cast the spell contained in a Knowstone, provided you can activate it.

Psyren's position is that the statement "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list." is a proscriptive statement that restricts Bards to only casting those spells that appear on the Bard Spell List. This position is wrong because it contracts later sentences that allow the Bard to cast spells he knows, and problematic because it does not allow list expansion effects such as Advanced Learning or Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research to function.

Your position is that while you can cast spells that happen to be on your spell list, a Bar that activates an animate dead Knowstone with a UMD check to emulate the Sorcerer spell list cannot cast it, because he has added animate dead to his (conjectural) list of Sorcerer spells known, not to his list of Bard spells known. This is wrong because the description of the Knowstone never specifies what list spell is added to, and irrelevant because you can (perhaps provided you have taken Arcane Preparation) simply emulate the Wyrm Wizard's Spell Research class feature to emulate having added the spell in question to "your spell list" for whatever class you happen to be.

At least one person has quoted text from the Rules Compendium that, if accurate, means Knowstones cannot work for anyone, because spontaneous casters can only add spells to their spells known on level up.

I understand exactly what you're saying. But you're wrong, because you insist there is language in the text that is not actually there. There is not a single word in the text of the Knowstone that specifies what list the spell is added to. The language discussing required spell levels is not class specific either -- it requires 3rd level spells and Bard spells, not 3rd level Bard spells, to function.

This is not a case of "disagreeing about the language" this is a case of you inventing language whole cloth to support a position the text does not. If you can't quote something to support your position, you have effectively admitted that you are wrong, no matter how many questions you can ask about Sorcerer/Bards trying to cast charm person. At least Psyren had some text to back him up.

[Segev]

Really, if "among your spells known" is all it takes, then the RC entry saying you can't use spell slots granted by one class to cast spells known granted by another is meaningless, because it means that spells known are spells known and those categories don't exist.

Now, I contend that they clearly do, and that the Knowstones let you act as if the inscribed spell were a spell you knew based on the class you asserted to the Knowstone that can cast the spell.

I also find the arguments to the contrary to be inventing new categories without facts in evidence, and often to be changing their definitions of the rules or applying rules inconsistently to get the results they want. But, again, I don't expect to persuade anybody at this point. Especially since the last "citation needed" I saw didn't seem to follow from the quote I made when the elaboration as to why was given. Sorry, I literally do not follow what you're asking for, there.

[Cosi]

Really, if "among your spells known" is all it takes, then the RC entry saying you can't use spell slots granted by one class to cast spells known granted by another is meaningless, because it means that spells known are spells known and those categories don't exist.

No.

Bard Known Spells are Bard Known Spells and may be cast with Bard Spell Slots.
Sorcerer Known Spells are Sorcerer Known Spells and may be cast with Sorcerer Spell Slots.
Both Bard Known Spells and Sorcerer Known Spells are Known Spells.

If an effect refers to someone's "known spells", it refers to in equal measure the spells the know as a Bard, a Beguiler, a Warmage, a Spontaneous Druid, a Favored Soul, or a Dread Necromancer. This does not imply that your Bard Known Spells are also your Beguiler Known Spells, just as the fact that both War and Peace and Snow Crash are books does not imply that War and Peace is Snow Crash. If someone were to say "you may have a book", you could freely select War and Peace or Snow Crash (or, indeed, any other book). But once you had selected War and Peace, it would at any time become Snow Crash. In very much the same way, a Knowstone adds its spell to your spells known. You must select some list for this process, but once that list is selected, it does not bleed onto any other list.

This is just a very basic application of sets. The fact that B is in A and C is in A does not imply that B = C.

[Segev]

Except that nowhere in the Bard class nor the Sorcerer class does it call them anything but "known spells." The RC entry calls out the difference despite that difference not being articulated. Either the entry is meaningless, referring to something that doesn't exist, or "known spells" are inherently known as part of a class granting them to you.

[Cosi]

Except that nowhere in the Bard class nor the Sorcerer class does it call them anything but "known spells." The RC entry calls out the difference despite that difference not being articulated. Either the entry is meaningless, referring to something that doesn't exist, or "known spells" are inherently known as part of a class granting them to you.

What part of the Rules Compendium are you referring to? As far as I can tell, the part quoted in this thread doesn't make the distinction you want it to -- it just says that Knowstones never work for anyone ever.

I also don't understand how saying that class specific known spells exist contradicts that both Beguiler Known Spells and Sorcerer Known Spells are known spells.

Unless you're taking up Psyren's position that the Bard may only ever cast spells from the Bard Spell List?

[Segev]

Cosi, I have explained my position and how it differs from the one you're ascribing to Psyren (which may be what he is saying, but I'm not going to speak for him).

If "spells known" are universal, and not "known as a particular class," then either the RC's rule says that nobody can use spontaneous spells, or it changes that universality.

If "spells known" are universal as above, and we ignore the RC entry, then Sorcerer/Bards can use third level Sorcerer spell slots to cast glibness. Without UMD or Knowstones. (So long as they picked up glibness with a Bard level choice.)

[Cosi]

Cosi, I have explained my position and how it differs from the one you're ascribing to Psyren (which may be what he is saying, but I'm not going to speak for him).

Psyren's position is necessary if you want to stop a Bard from casting animate dead if it is one of his spells known. You seem very insistent on doing that, so you must believe that his position is accurate (or present some other similar evidence).


If "spells known" are universal, and not "known as a particular class," then either the RC's rule says that nobody can use spontaneous spells, or it changes that universality.

All spells known are known as a particular class. But all spells known are also spells known. In the exact same way that all books are some particular book which other books are not, but are also still books. B is in A and C is in A, that does not imply that B = C.

This is relevant because the Knowstone adds to your "spells known", not "your Bard spells known" or "your Beguiler spells known". Therefore, you may put it on any or all particular lists of spells known you happen to have. This is particularly clear, because classes have not been mentioned at the time the spells known issue is raised.

[death390]

The way that spell known is handled has always been each class has its own spells know. if you were to list out the features it would be similar to this.

Bard: spells. (this includes the bards spells know list as it is in this pasage)
Bard: Spells per day
Sorcerer: spells (this includes the sorcerers spells known list as it is in this passage)
Sorcerer: spells per day

rules compendium states that you cannot use Bard: spells per day to cast sorcerer: spells, and vice versa. that is the literal interpretation, broken down as class features.

i have never argued that there was one spells known list, for the knowstones i argued that it adds the spell known (at the spell level it spits out for the class feature "Class: Spells" used or emulated with UMD) to either ALL "Class: Spells: spells known list" or a single one of your choice. i am in favor of ALL due to the lack of a singular in the knowstone list.

[Dagroth]

The way that spell known is handled has always been each class has its own spells know. if you were to list out the features it would be similar to this.

Bard: spells. (this includes the bards spells know list as it is in this pasage)
Bard: Spells per day
Sorcerer: spells (this includes the sorcerers spells known list as it is in this passage)
Sorcerer: spells per day

rules compendium states that you cannot use Bard: spells per day to cast sorcerer: spells, and vice versa. that is the literal interpretation, broken down as class features.

i have never argued that there was one spells known list, for the knowstones i argued that it adds the spell known (at the spell level it spits out for the class feature "Class: Spells" used or emulated with UMD) to either ALL "Class: Spells: spells known list" or a single one of your choice. i am in favor of ALL due to the lack of a singular in the knowstone list.

I agree, I think...

For me, if a Bard 10/Sorcerer 10 had a Knowstone of Glibness, he would be able to cast Glibness with his 3rd level Bard spell slots. If he successfully used UMD on said Knowstone of Glibness (and only if he did so), he would also be able to cast Glibness with his 3rd level Sorcerer spell slots. He would do this by emulating the class feature of a PrC that gives his Sorcerer casting access to the Bard Spell List. Just like he would be able to use a Knowstone of Aid by emulating the Rainbow Servant PrC class's ability to access the Good Domain.

He is not emulating the Bard class's ability to access the Bard Spell List, nor is he emulating the Cleric class's ability to access the Good Domain or the Cleric Spell List. He is emulating a PrC's class feature that gives the member of said PrC access to that spell list which, by the way PrCs are written, makes said spell castable using his Sorcerer Spell Slots.

[Karl Aegis]

Resolving the issue step one: What type of magic device is it?

It is accepted via silence as a continuously functioning magic item.

Resolving the issue step two: Can Use Magic Device be used on a continuously functioning magic item?



USE MAGIC DEVICE (CHA, TRAINED ONLY)
If you’re trained in this skill, you can use it to read spells and
activate magic items as if you had the spell ability or class
features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as
if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic
Device check each time you activate a magic item as part of
the action required to activate that item. If you’re using the
check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an
ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic
Device check once per hour.

Continuously functioning magic items don't need to be activated.

"As if you had the spell ability of another class" is listed separately from "as if you had the class features of another class", so you cannot use "emulate a class feature" to activate an item that does not need to be activated and requires the spell ability of another class.

There you go OP. Two steps needed to determine you cannot activate a knowstone via the emulate class feature component of Use Magic Device.

[Rhyltran]

Resolving the issue step one: What type of magic device is it?

It is accepted via silence as a continuously functioning magic item.

Resolving the issue step two: Can Use Magic Device be used on a continuously functioning magic item?



Continuously functioning magic items don't need to be activated.

"As if you had the spell ability of another class" is listed separately from "as if you had the class features of another class", so you cannot use "emulate a class feature" to activate an item that does not need to be activated and requires the spell ability of another class.

There you go OP. Two steps needed to determine you cannot activate a knowstone via the emulate class feature component of Use Magic Device.

In the article it outright states it's an activation. It has "Activation:" listed. I'm not the only one to say this. Cosi has as well.

Cosi: The presence of an "activation" entry for a Knowstone would seem to strongly indicate it requires activation to use.

[Cosi]

In the article it outright states it's an activation. At his "Activation:" Listed. I'm not the only one to say this. Cosi has as well.

Cosi: The presence of an "activation" entry for a Knowstone would seem to strongly indicate it requires activation to use.

It's alright, Karl doesn't seem to believe its necessary to read the things he's arguing about, or the posts of people he's arguing with. You would think that the presence of the word "activation" and the absence of the word "continuous" would be sufficient to convince him that his position is wrong, but then he thinks that "casting spells at all" is a magic item which can be effected with UMD. It's best to take his posts as more a form of surrealist art than attempts to present arguments for positions.