My fellow players cheat. Should I say something?

[Dalebert]

I play almost exclusively AL and AL has certain rules everyone is expected to follow. My Wednesday night group tends to be more AL-light. Folks there do some things like start characters at higher than 1st level to play in a game or ignore certain AL rules they don't like such as the PHB+1. If you say something about it, the typical response is "I don't play at conventions." followed by a shrug. Many people don't bother to keep logs at all.

But it bothers me because I DO play at conventions and I play at other stores on other nights where they DO enforce the rules and so I DO follow all the rules for AL. I feel like those rules are there for a reason to make organized play balanced and fair to everyone. I have to make painful choices like if I play a ghostwise halfling land druid, I won't have access to the Elemental Evil spells. I chose to rebuild to a water genasi so I would. Meanwhile, I'm at tables where other people are getting to play Volo's monster races while also having access to SCAG and EE. They can have a tabaxi swashbuckler. I can't. They can have a bugbear assassin with Boooming Blade. I can't.

The one thing I have reluctantly accepted is letting someone make up a higher level character to play in a tier they don't otherwise have a character for. It felt like a necessity at times because they're new and it's too hard to accommodate them otherwise. But even then, my attitude is that character doesn't count. So for instance, I've insisted they can't take magic items that drop from other characters who played legally. I don't even think they should continue to exist after that game and treated as a persistent character. What's the point of even accruing x.p if you're just going to make the character whatever level you want when you need it?

It's bothering me but I feel like I'm going to be seen as the supreme party pooper if I start insisting people follow the rules. So far, I seem to be the only one who cares.

[doc225]

Stories like this have been my #1 reason for being reluctant to try AL.

I've heard them over and over.

I'd say tell the DM and organizer and ask that they enforce the rules, or suggest that they play a non AL game and allow you to roll with whatever you want. If they won't conform, and you want to stick to AL, then don't play with them anymore. If you're ok playing an AL character for the stores that follow the rules and then use another character with these guys, then don't say anything and just start a new character for their games. that'd be a good compromise, I think.

[Addaran]

It seems those people aren't going to actually play in real AL games? Best thing would be to not count those AL-light game as AL game at all. They seems to act like if it's just any home-game.

Are you playing that game for fun or to progress your character? You'd probably be better to make some new what-ever you want character for those game and keep your real AL characters for real AL games.

[Sigreid]

Agree with the others. It sounds like playing in that game is accepting that it's not an AL game.

[rooneg]

I'm of mixed feelings about this sort of thing. On one hand, I'd feel super annoyed if other people at the table were playing characters I wasn't allowed to build (Tabaxi Swashbuckler I'm looking at you). On the other hand, if it's the difference between having a game and not...

I know for a fact that there are people we both see at local cons who play in a regular Wednesday night game that is super not AL legal. I presume the characters they whip out at TotalCon are from that game. I don't make a big deal about it because what does it gain anyone.

As for the creating a random character to play in a higher level game, I'm not in love with the AL rules regarding pregens at high level, but I do understand the reason behind them (and we both know that rule has a significant impact on what games I'm personally allowed to play in). I think the "no, you can't take the damn item, that character vanishes as soon as they leave the table" compromise is a reasonable line in the sand, but I wish it wasn't necessary in the first place.

Mostly, I'm sad to hear this, because I had hoped that the NH crowd didn't have these sort of issues.

[RumoCrytuf]

I play almost exclusively AL and AL has certain rules everyone is expected to follow. My Wednesday night group tends to be more AL-light. Folks there do some things like start characters at higher than 1st level to play in a game or ignore certain AL rules they don't like such as the PHB+1. If you say something about it, the typical response is "I don't play at conventions." followed by a shrug. Many people don't bother to keep logs at all.

But it bothers me because I DO play at conventions and I play at other stores on other nights where they DO enforce the rules and so I DO follow all the rules for AL. I feel like those rules are there for a reason to make organized play balanced and fair to everyone. I have to make painful choices like if I play a ghostwise halfling land druid, I won't have access to the Elemental Evil spells. I chose to rebuild to a water genasi so I would. Meanwhile, I'm at tables where other people are getting to play Volo's monster races while also having access to SCAG and EE. They can have a tabaxi swashbuckler. I can't. They can have a bugbear assassin with Boooming Blade. I can't.

The one thing I have reluctantly accepted is letting someone make up a higher level character to play in a tier they don't otherwise have a character for. It felt like a necessity at times because they're new and it's too hard to accommodate them otherwise. But even then, my attitude is that character doesn't count. So for instance, I've insisted they can't take magic items that drop from other characters who played legally. I don't even think they should continue to exist after that game and treated as a persistent character. What's the point of even accruing x.p if you're just going to make the character whatever level you want when you need it?

It's bothering me but I feel like I'm going to be seen as the supreme party pooper if I start insisting people follow the rules. So far, I seem to be the only one who cares.

Erm... what's AL?

[Tetrasodium]

a non-d&d group I used to play in was chatting with one of the guys that works at/possibly even management at the flgs we play at about AL a while back. He pointed out how a new season was just starting so joining in wouldn't run into the problem of "hey, welcome to the group, but oh... we're all level 4 & your only level 1 so going to die if you try to do anything" a couple of us scratched out heads in bewilderment over why the gm didn't just start them with a few levels to be closer to the group & avoid that without being familiar with the al rules at the time.

Needless to say, the guy explained how AL has a bunch of rules beyond just the d&d core rules & they prevent that kind of thing. We all thought that sounded pretty stupid & he agreed saying that he wrote the company when they were redoing some of the rules trying to urge them into loosening things up because none of the folks here are that into it where they go around to different places/cons/etc to play their character. they run AL games on Wednesdays & Thursdays with around 4-5 tables of 4-6+ players each both nights & most of those are different people.

Most people just want to have fun & by extension are willing to put up with the often nonsensical AL restrictions you so desire in order to have it. You in turn should be able to put up with their disdain for some of it without being too disruptive. If joe wants to play a bugbear w/ booming blade, so what, It's not hurting you.

[Ursus the Grim]

Dalebert, I know your pain. I handle different things in different ways.

1. Illegal characters.

Play dumb. Loudly and obliviously ask, 'oh cool! Where did you get the documentation to bypass the +1 rule?'. Sometimes there's a legitimate answer (My hobgoblin wizard copied EE spells from someone else). But if the DM's on the up-and-up, it will be enough to grab their attention. Pretend you're legitimately interested in learning new tricks.

2. AL-Lite stores.

This is more insidious and infuriating because its drawing in legitimate players and giving them a compromised experience and expectation. Depending on the situation I might handle it in different ways. Last time I arched an eyebrow and explained that what they were doing 'wasn't technically by the book.' and tried to be casual about it. The second time that location broke with AL rules, I wished them the best of luck, explained that I wasn't willing to break the rules and told them to have fun. Then I never went back and reported them to Wizards (which likely did nothing).

3. Easiest option?

Plausible deniability. Its not your job to police everybody. You can keep your head down and play as fairly as you can. You have no way of truly knowing how the player got to be XYZ. You have to take the honor system at what its worth. I'm only comfortable doing this once per venue, or not at all if they're really blatant or nasty about it.



Most people just want to have fun & by extension are willing to put up with the often nonsensical AL restrictions you so desire in order to have it. You in turn should be able to put up with their disdain for some of it without being too disruptive. If joe wants to play a bugbear w/ booming blade, so what, It's not hurting you.

It is, though.

If you don't like AL rules, don't play AL. Play a home game. Don't advertise it as AL and then provide an experience that isn't AL.

A character with access to only two books is going to be less optimized than a character with access to all books. Power creep in 3.5 was directly related to the number of books players had access to. Sure, core was broken too, but book bloat made it worse.

Never mind that starting a character above 1st basically guarantees they're not going to know all their class features.

[rooneg]

a non-d&d group I used to play in was chatting with one of the guys that works at/possibly even management at the flgs we play at about AL a while back. He pointed out how a new season was just starting so joining in wouldn't run into the problem of "hey, welcome to the group, but oh... we're all level 4 & your only level 1 so going to die if you try to do anything" a couple of us scratched out heads in bewilderment over why the gm didn't just start them with a few levels to be closer to the group & avoid that without being familiar with the al rules at the time.

Needless to say, the guy explained how AL has a bunch of rules beyond just the d&d core rules & they prevent that kind of thing. We all thought that sounded pretty stupid & he agreed saying that he wrote the company when they were redoing some of the rules trying to urge them into loosening things up because none of the folks here are that into it where they go around to different places/cons/etc to play their character. they run AL games on Wednesdays & Thursdays with around 4-5 tables of 4-6+ players each both nights & most of those are different people.

Most people just want to have fun & by extension are willing to put up with the often nonsensical AL restrictions you so desire in order to have it. You in turn should be able to put up with their disdain for some of it without being too disruptive. If joe wants to play a bugbear w/ booming blade, so what, It's not hurting you.

In my experience, most well run AL game nights go out of their way to have someone willing to run last minute tables for low level characters for precisely this reason. And honestly, a couple of level 1s at a table full of level 4s will level out of it after a single game. They'll dodge bullets and get reanimated and be fine next week at level 3. The real issue is the people who want to play with level 10s and 15s. You can't practically bring a low level PC to those tables (sometimes because of the rules, sometimes because it just won't work), and honestly you shouldn't. Higher level characters have a huge number of options and a newbie player who doesn't know what they're doing will slow things down and make it less fun than it otherwise could be. Providing a low level table is 100% the right thing to do in that situation if you have the DMs and space.

[Ursus the Grim]

In my experience, most well run AL game nights go out of their way to have someone willing to run last minute tables for low level characters for precisely this reason. And honestly, a couple of level 1s at a table full of level 4s will level out of it after a single game. They'll dodge bullets and get reanimated and be fine next week at level 3. The real issue is the people who want to play with level 10s and 15s. You can't practically bring a low level PC to those tables (sometimes because of the rules, sometimes because it just won't work), and honestly you shouldn't. Higher level characters have a huge number of options and a newbie player who doesn't know what they're doing will slow things down and make it less fun than it otherwise could be. Providing a low level table is 100% the right thing to do in that situation if you have the DMs and space.

I play at a really crowded event (so crowded we have to use Warhorn every week) and we try to make sure we always have a Tier 1 at the same night we run a Tier 2 if there is the chance of having room for walk-ins.

Otherwise its up to the organizer to let new players know 'hey, sorry, we're running Tier 2 for a few weeks.' If they want the new players, they can run a Tier 1 table.

[Mellack]

Is the Wed night game listed as an AL game? Or are they just some folks who are getting together to game? If they are not running an officially recognized AL game then they can choose to run whatever rules they want.

[Warlawk]

Never mind that starting a character above 1st basically guarantees they're not going to know all their class features.

I'm not an AL player so much of this thread is things I just don't have an opinion on, but this is pretty presumptuous. The class features are not exactly rocket science. If you are playing with people who have practically no past RPG experience or young children, that statement might hold water. From my perspective as a grognard that's been gaming D&D for over 30 years it seems almost insulting.

As for the main topic here, the Wednesday night session in question, is it being passed off as an AL game? If so, then yeah something should be done. The OP didn't seem clear to me on that point. If this is just a home game that uses some of the AL stuff, then there's no need to even worry about it. If it is being touted as an AL game though, that's a whole different story. You want to be a league game with league characters, you play by league rules.

[rooneg]

I'm not an AL player so much of this thread is things I just don't have an opinion on, but this is pretty presumptuous. The class features are not exactly rocket science. If you are playing with people who have practically no past RPG experience or young children, that statement might hold water. From my perspective as a grognard that's been gaming D&D for over 30 years it seems almost insulting.

By far the majority of people who walk into an AL game night looking to play their first AL game are the "I've never played D&D" types, not the "I've been playing D&D for 30 years" types. Moreover, the second type are more likely to have done their homework and found out that AL has different tiers of play and what precisely the local store is running. Not saying that there isn't the occasional grognard walking in asking to sit at a table, but the random people showing up unannounced looking to play typically aren't them.

[Ursus the Grim]

I'm not an AL player so much of this thread is things I just don't have an opinion on, but this is pretty presumptuous. The class features are not exactly rocket science. If you are playing with people who have practically no past RPG experience or young children, that statement might hold water. From my perspective as a grognard that's been gaming D&D for over 30 years it seems almost insulting.


By far the majority of people who walk into an AL game night looking to play their first AL game are the "I've never played D&D" types, not the "I've been playing D&D for 30 years" types. Moreover, the second type are more likely to have done their homework and found out that AL has different tiers of play and what precisely the local store is running. Not saying that there isn't the occasional grognard walking in asking to sit at a table, but the random people showing up unannounced looking to play typically aren't them.

I play with a lot of grognards - in my home AL table, I was actually the only one under 30. Most were over 40. The older, more veteran players have usually done their research, know how AL works, and have found a Tier 1 table to play at. Its the new players that are usually the ones that need to be bumped up in level, and have the least exposure to their table.

There's a pretty big gap in class mastery between the level 11 wizard who just walked in and the guy who's been playing it every week for the better part of a year. Expert players with 30+ years of experience are an exception, but not the norm.

[Foxhound438]

it honestly sounds to me like you're in a home game using the published modules. Nothing wrong with that unless they are trying to register them as AL sessions...

[Sigreid]

So I just thought I would point out that it doesn't sound like they are cheating, they just aren't playing an AL game. If they bill it as AL, that's still not right, but it doesn't sound like they brake rules, re-roll dice or any of the other stuff that would typically be considered cheating.

[Prince Zahn]

I was expecting an entirely different kind of thread, but that's okay. Even though I'm not in the AL a quick glance at the rules told me enough.

Dalebert, it is true that those rules have a purpose. More than anything else, they appear to be there to set a standard of D&D where you can legitimately play your D&D character in any group you want. Those rules exist solely to level the playing field for everyone.

If you're group is supposed to be playing AL, but doesn't in practice, you can either call them to them out on it and seek a solution /compromise with this group, or "cheat" as you call it with them and just not call it an AL game. PHB+1 is not for every group, and it's not a crime to ignore it if your group doesn't really want to play an AL registered game. If it's a store, talk to the owner about game night, and aim for a compromise where you either enforce AL, or don't, but meet up and play anyway.

And if it gets to the paint point where this group doesn't and won't play AL, get a piece of the action too, and don't feel guilty about making and playing a NON-AL character. When in Rome, do as the modrons do, and all that.

[Dalebert]

I completely agree that it's fine for people to get together at a game store and play homebrew games using AL modules. The problem I have is the ambiguity. I would say most people are logging everything AL-style and getting xp, gold, downtime, renown, magic items assigned according to # of items so far, etc. There's just a kind of laziness that amounts to "i'm cheating because I can get away with it. I'm not going anywhere they will actually check my character or logs."

I think what I'm going to do is ask that they draw a line between AL games and homebrew. If folks want to play homebrew, fine, but don't just half-ass the supposedly AL games and keep pretending it's AL.

[Submortimer]

I think what I'm going to do is ask that they draw a line between AL games and homebrew. If folks want to play homebrew, fine, but don't just half-ass the supposedly AL games and keep pretending it's AL.

This is the right answer. I, personally, NEVER play AL, because I find all the restrictions silly, but if that's what you want to play and that's what the group is playing, then they should certainly abide by those rules. If not, it's not AL.

[Arkhios]

I've said it before and I still keep saying it:

Ever since RPGA chose to end Living Greyhawk Organized Campaign, Wizards' organized play rules have only gotten worse. Pathfinder Society followed on those exact footsteps and look at them now: Pathfinder is a gold mine and Pathfinder Society is faring far better at conventions than AL.
Adventurer's League (and to some extent WotC) should swallow their pride and take example from Paizo instead of trying to be a special snowflake which clearly has its huge flaws which in turn drive people to ignore several rules.

I played PFS for 7 years (since it started in '08) until I faced scheduling problems, and during that time I never heard of stories like this. Tells you something about the quality, don't you think?

[busterswd]

In spite of what it claims to be, AL is ultimately a gentleman's agreement among all players involved. There are very little resources or motivations to enforce the rules outside of blatant violations (and even then, audits are kind of a last resort), and when I was playing actively, Wizards seemed hellbent on pulling even more resources away from it. Now it's gotten to the point where you can literally have "a friend" DM a game for you "at home" and as long as you write down some fascimile of a DM DCI number, it's hard to question.

If there's a game you want to play that you make a Tier 3 character from scratch for, or there's a build that you want to try that's not AL legal: just don't treat these games as AL games, because they're not.

On the other hand, players "cheating" the AL rules should not affect your own legitimate character progress. If a character writes 30000 XP from a tier 1 session, that doesn't mean that your character suddenly needs to be destroyed for having participated in the same adventure.

In short, just follow your own honor system and your own judgment for which games you want to record, because 1) trying to keep other players honest is ultimately going to be fruitless and 2) AL games pretty much work that way regardless.


I think what I'm going to do is ask that they draw a line between AL games and homebrew. If folks want to play homebrew, fine, but don't just half-ass the supposedly AL games and keep pretending it's AL.

I don't know that I would do that; if people are having fun, regardless of your motivation, insiting on rules the majority of the players (or worse, the DM) don't want to follow is going to make you the bad guy, and it sounds like you're not exactly drowning in options for AL games. At the very least, broach the subject carefully, and see how receptive people are to the idea.

[Dappershire]

Murder Them....


Seriously though,
Erm... what's AL?
Google just throws out 8999 pdf files at me.



Super seriously...murder them.

[Orion3T]

Murder Them....


Seriously though,
Google just throws out 8999 pdf files at me.



Super seriously...murder them.

http://dnd.wizards.com/playevents/organized-play

[Tetrasodium]

Murder Them....


Seriously though,
Google just throws out 8999 pdf files at me.



Super seriously...murder them.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/adventurers-league-resources a quick skim of the first two (dm guide & players guide) should cover it. both are very short.




I completely agree that it's fine for people to get together at a game store and play homebrew games using AL modules. The problem I have is the ambiguity. I would say most people are logging everything AL-style and getting xp, gold, downtime, renown, magic items assigned according to # of items so far, etc. There's just a kind of laziness that amounts to "i'm cheating because I can get away with it. I'm not going anywhere they will actually check my character or logs."

I think what I'm going to do is ask that they draw a line between AL games and homebrew. If folks want to play homebrew, fine, but don't just half-ass the supposedly AL games and keep pretending it's AL.

Like it or not logging all of that "AL style" is convenient thanks to wotc forgetting to include boxes for those thingson the character sheet despite experience having been on it since at least ad&d with the new #magic items/downtime logically belonging there. Frankly it's kind of a pain to have a second sheet just for what could be s couple boxes taking up a postage stamp or two of space on the sheet; but then newbies would just use those boxes instead of getting pushed into grudgingly following the excessive AL sheet convention.


In general, the strict AL players annoy me badly & often fall into two camps
[list=1]
"[Mr./Mrs. gm], joe can't heal that npc one round after it went down because AL says that an npc who falls to 0 hp is dead rather than just dying" & ""[Mr./Mrs. gm], Steve can't cast that spell as a bigbear because AL limits characters to PHB+1"
"what are you guys playing tonight?">"ohh [lots of good items there] I want to join in & go away as soon as me & all these random people take half or more of them now that someone else is in wave echo cave or whatever"/"oh, [ask some questions] to confirm it's not a loot laden part & wander off to check the different tables"
[/url]
The first is annoying for obvious reasons, the second is just obnoxious. Players who are into AL & don't mind sticking with a group without playing rules lawyer are fine.

[Ursus the Grim]

I've said it before and I still keep saying it:

Ever since RPGA chose to end Living Greyhawk Organized Campaign, Wizards' organized play rules have only gotten worse. Pathfinder Society followed on those exact footsteps and look at them now: Pathfinder is a gold mine and Pathfinder Society is faring far better at conventions than AL.

Adventurer's League (and to some extent WotC) should swallow their pride and take example from Paizo instead of trying to be a special snowflake which clearly has its huge flaws which in turn drive people to ignore several rules.

I played PFS for 7 years (since it started in '08) until I faced scheduling problems, and during that time I never heard of stories like this. Tells you something about the quality, don't you think?

I'm curious where you're seeing major rules differences between PFS and AL. I haven't played in a few years, but from what I recall both:

Have restrictions on Evil alignments.
Use point buy stats.
Allow for limited character rebuilding.
Don't allow you to start above level 1.
Some restriction on additional resources.

In some areas, PFS rules are even more strict than AL. No Evil characters at all (AL allows for LE characters in some circumstances.) Rebuilds above 1st level cost you (AL denies rebuilds past level 5, but gives them for free until then).

Finally, although PFS theoretically allows you to use any and all additional resources, the rules require you to have a hard copy of that book, notify the DM in advance that you are using it, and the DM is expected to own a hard copy of every additional resource. How many official PF supplements were published?

So looking at the PFS rules and a lot of parallels between its apparent unmitigated wild success and AL's huge flaws, what leads players to ignore the rules of the latter and not the former?

(I also haven't seen AL revoke playable races/classes that it has previously okay'ed, but that's coming from a bitter tiefling.)


In spite of what it claims to be, AL is ultimately a gentleman's agreement among all players involved. There are very little resources or motivations to enforce the rules outside of blatant violations (and even then, audits are kind of a last resort), and when I was playing actively, Wizards seemed hellbent on pulling even more resources away from it. Now it's gotten to the point where you can literally have "a friend" DM a game for you "at home" and as long as you write down some fascimile of a DM DCI number, it's hard to question.

If there's a game you want to play that you make a Tier 3 character from scratch for, or there's a build that you want to try that's not AL legal: just don't treat these games as AL games, because they're not.

On the other hand, players "cheating" the AL rules should not affect your own legitimate character progress. If a character writes 30000 XP from a tier 1 session, that doesn't mean that your character suddenly needs to be destroyed for having participated in the same adventure.

In short, just follow your own honor system and your own judgment for which games you want to record, because 1) trying to keep other players honest is ultimately going to be fruitless and 2) AL games pretty much work that way regardless.


QFT. Unfortunately you're not your party's keeper.



Like it or not logging all of that "AL style" is convenient thanks to wotc forgetting to include boxes for those thingson the character sheet despite experience having been on it since at least ad&d with the new #magic items/downtime logically belonging there. Frankly it's kind of a pain to have a second sheet just for what could be s couple boxes taking up a postage stamp or two of space on the sheet; but then newbies would just use those boxes instead of getting pushed into grudgingly following the excessive AL sheet convention.

In general, the strict AL players annoy me badly & often fall into two camps
[list=1]
"[Mr./Mrs. gm], joe can't heal that npc one round after it went down because AL says that an npc who falls to 0 hp is dead rather than just dying" & ""[Mr./Mrs. gm], Steve can't cast that spell as a bigbear because AL limits characters to PHB+1"
"what are you guys playing tonight?">"ohh [lots of good items there] I want to join in & go away as soon as me & all these random people take half or more of them now that someone else is in wave echo cave or whatever"/"oh, [ask some questions] to confirm it's not a loot laden part & wander off to check the different tables"
[/url]
The first is annoying for obvious reasons, the second is just obnoxious. Players who are into AL & don't mind sticking with a group without playing rules lawyer are fine.

Okay, I'm trying to translate this. Below is a copyedited version of what I think you wrote.


Like it or not logging many things "AL style" is inconvenient because WotC forgot to include boxes for those things on the character sheet. The new # magic items/downtime days fields should have been included on the character sheet. Frankly it's kind of a pain to have a second sheet just for what could be a couple boxes, which would take up a postage stamp or two worth of space on the sheet. If that were the case, newbies could use those boxes instead of being forced to deal with excessive numbers of sheets.

In general, the strict AL players annoy me terribly and often belong in one of two camps:
[list=1]
"GM, Joe can't heal that NPC one round after it went down because AL says that an NPC who falls to 0 hp is dead rather than just dying" or "GM, Steve can't cast that spell as a bugbear because AL limits characters to PHB+1"

Players who briefly join a session for the loot and then leave before the end.

The first is annoying for obvious reasons, the second is just obnoxious. Players who are into AL & don't mind sticking with a group without playing rules lawyer are fine.

Might I suggest you don't play AL and don't tell people you do? The whole point of AL is to provide structured drop-in/drop-out play within a consistent framework and a shared experience. If you don't like the AL rules, don't play AL. Its that easy. If you don't like players hopping from LGS to LGS to Convention, don't play AL.

AL isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get it. There's nothing wrong with playing a home game.

Listen, I actually like Raisins. You know, the dead, desiccated grape that kind of reminds you of grandma? I like them. Sometimes I pop Sun-Maid boxes like Tic-Tacs. But when I go into your store and buy a Chocolate Chip Cookie, expecting Cookies that are playing by Chocolate Chip rules, and I get Raisin Cookies? I'm gonna be a little upset and disappointed.

I'd much rather you tell me 'hey, we think Chocolate Chips are stupid. We only sell Raisin Cookies', I'd have a better expectation of what I'm actually buying.

Though, now that I think about it, a tale about tofuburgers might have been more suitable. 'It's not strictly beef.'

Edit: Regarding Sheets, at level 9 my character has no fewer than 13 sheets. There's no way I'd be able to document all of his stuff on his character sheet alone, but it all fits easily into a thin folder. Considering all the stuff most players bring (books, dice, writing instruments, miniatures, doritos, mountain dew) I really don't think keeping a logsheet is that much work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You... are allowed to play not following AL rules, you know. It's not cheating. There's literally no wrong way to play the game, as long as everyone involved is having fun. Just make a character specifically for that table, and keep your AL guy for actual AL games.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm curious where you're seeing major rules differences between PFS and AL. I haven't played in a few years, but from what I recall both:

Have restrictions on Evil alignments.
Use point buy stats.
Allow for limited character rebuilding.
Don't allow you to start above level 1.
Some restriction on additional resources.

In some areas, PFS rules are even more strict than AL. No Evil characters at all (AL allows for LE characters in some circumstances.) Rebuilds above 1st level cost you (AL denies rebuilds past level 5, but gives them for free until then).

Finally, although PFS theoretically allows you to use any and all additional resources, the rules require you to have a hard copy of that book, notify the DM in advance that you are using it, and the DM is expected to own a hard copy of every additional resource. How many official PF supplements were published?

So looking at the PFS rules and a lot of parallels between its apparent unmitigated wild success and AL's huge flaws, what leads players to ignore the rules of the latter and not the former?

(I also haven't seen AL revoke playable races/classes that it has previously okay'ed, but that's coming from a bitter tiefling.)



QFT. Unfortunately you're not your party's keeper.



Okay, I'm trying to translate this. Below is a copyedited version of what I think you wrote.


Like it or not logging many things "AL style" is inconvenient because WotC forgot to include boxes for those things on the character sheet. The new # magic items/downtime days fields should have been included on the character sheet. Frankly it's kind of a pain to have a second sheet just for what could be a couple boxes, which would take up a postage stamp or two worth of space on the sheet. If that were the case, newbies could use those boxes instead of being forced to deal with excessive numbers of sheets.

In general, the strict AL players annoy me terribly and often belong in one of two camps:
[list=1]
"GM, Joe can't heal that NPC one round after it went down because AL says that an NPC who falls to 0 hp is dead rather than just dying" or "GM, Steve can't cast that spell as a bugbear because AL limits characters to PHB+1"

Players who briefly join a session for the loot and then leave before the end.

The first is annoying for obvious reasons, the second is just obnoxious. Players who are into AL & don't mind sticking with a group without playing rules lawyer are fine.

Might I suggest you don't play AL and don't tell people you do? The whole point of AL is to provide structured drop-in/drop-out play within a consistent framework and a shared experience. If you don't like the AL rules, don't play AL. Its that easy. If you don't like players hopping from LGS to LGS to Convention, don't play AL.

AL isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get it. There's nothing wrong with playing a home game.

Listen, I actually like Raisins. You know, the dead, desiccated grape that kind of reminds you of grandma? I like them. Sometimes I pop Sun-Maid boxes like Tic-Tacs. But when I go into your store and buy a Chocolate Chip Cookie, expecting Cookies that are playing by Chocolate Chip rules, and I get Raisin Cookies? I'm gonna be a little upset and disappointed.

I'd much rather you tell me 'hey, we think Chocolate Chips are stupid. We only sell Raisin Cookies', I'd have a better expectation of what I'm actually buying.

Though, now that I think about it, a tale about tofuburgers might have been more suitable. 'It's not strictly beef.'

Edit: Regarding Sheets, at level 9 my character has no fewer than 13 sheets. There's no way I'd be able to document all of his stuff on his character sheet alone, but it all fits easily into a thin folder. Considering all the stuff most players bring (books, dice, writing instruments, miniatures, doritos, mountain dew) I really don't think keeping a logsheet is that much work.

Pretty much, but I only commented on people "logging everything AL-style " because dalebert appeared to be complaining that people were using the log sheet in non-AL games as if there was something wrong with that. It seems like a pretty bizarre & ridiculous rant when looked at without the context of the Dalebert post quoted immediately before it. I don't personally find it particularly onerous.

As to the two strict AL player types I mentioned, the bugbear casting a spell he shouldn't is an example from this thread. As to the second, It's not a coincidence that a tier table explodes as it progresses through something an adventure, crumbles as many of those players jump ship to a different table mid/late through an adventure & explodes again as they return with a different/maybe the same character using AL's open nature to jump in when the returns will be better. Maybe in areas with less game stores than here (I can think of 4 within 20-30ish min drive of my house & know there are others if you move the starting point). Given Dalebert's complains about people "cheating", "not following the rules", & the like since he started this thread... it seemed reasonable to point out that problems exist in both camps.

As I pretty much said earlier... everyone just wants to have fun, if it's not hurting you, bite your tongue & do the same without rules law yering towards everyone else Passive aggressive "how did you get around PHB+1" or not). If nobody cares that AL guidelines say XYZ is the GM's required course of action instead of just X or PZQ, having to listen to someone bring up AL guidelines yet again frustrates everyone else. If there is a reasonable argument for why the gm made a bad call, make that & people will join in if they agree... but if "AL Guidelines/rules" is the only reason to dispute it you are being a disruption.

Just the other day, I watched the GM from three different tables stop running their tables for quite a few minutes so they could debate over what AL would dictate the first should do if a PC with spiderclimb is knocked unconscious while on the ceiling. After watching them discuss the source of spiderclimb (turns out, it was magic slippers) & debating what should happen if it was a spell/natural ability/etc instead of an item, a frustrated player said "Who cares, whatever is more interesting should happen"... The second two agreed & the first said "Thanks, that was pretty much what I was planning, but so & so wanted to bring up AL rules. Sorry man, your stuck to the ceiling till they run out".

[Ursus the Grim]

Just the other day, I watched the GM from three different tables stop running their tables for quite a few minutes so they could debate over what AL would dictate the first should do if a PC with spiderclimb is knocked unconscious while on the ceiling. After watching them discuss the source of spiderclimb (turns out, it was magic slippers) & debating what should happen if it was a spell/natural ability/etc instead of an item, a frustrated player said "Who cares, whatever is more interesting should happen"... The second two agreed & the first said "Thanks, that was pretty much what I was planning, but so & so wanted to bring up AL rules. Sorry man, your stuck to the ceiling till they run out".

I think you're conflating 'AL Rules' with RAW a lot here.

[Dr.Samurai]

My fellow players cheat. Should I say something?
Need more info OP. What's your alignment? Then we can tell you exactly what to do about this :smallamused:.

[Tetrasodium]

I think you're conflating 'AL Rules' with RAW a lot here.
The particular example is irrelevant & just the first one to spring to mind.

not really, "AL says" is just an easy way to override a gm call on an edge case that used to be "RAW says" because it strips the gm of the ability to say things like "maybe, but now is not the time to get into that & the call is made".

It's pretty common advice to bring up rules quibbles/disagreements before/after/outside of game rather than in the middle, AL encourages bring it up in the middle of not only the rules lawyer's game but others as well. Between the faq (http://dndadventurersleague.org/faq-update/), the older faq (http://sage.dndadventurersleague.org/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ)), and a skew of twitter hsandles
@JeremyECrawford, @ChrisPerkinsDnD, @wizards_dnd, @DnD_AdvLeague, sageadvice, official podcasts, & god knows what else there is ammunition hidden away to make the conflicting splatbook hell of 3.5 look downright organized & "actually AL guidelines" is the encouraged way to bring it up in the middle of the game so you can overrule a gm call instead of waiting till after so we get the multigm huddles from a single rules lawyer who just couldn't wait.

[Dappershire]

Need more info OP. What's your alignment? Then we can tell you exactly what to do about this :smallamused:.



Murder Them....





Super seriously...murder them.


Already got that covered. But I like your moxy.

[Dalebert]

Regarding the "as long as everyone's having fun", well clearly I'm having some issues. I won't say I'm having no fun or I would just stop. It's just there are always playstyles that can be incompatible and cause some people to have their fun in the game interfered with and this is just one of those things. One of the things on my list of gaming pet peeves is when people try stuff just to see if they can get away with it even when they know that's not the rules. And if they DO get away with it, maybe because one table's fine with it, they keep doing it at other tables just assuming it's still fine. Other people see that those rules aren't being enforced so they start breaking the same rules. People who are trying to follow the rules are effectively gimped.

To some extent or another, we all like and need rules. The game falls apart without them. Sure, we all draw our particular "line" differently in terms of our tolerance for bending the rules. Even in a homebrew, if I decide to make a house rule, I generally like to ask "Is every single person at this table okay with us doing it this way?" I feel like a lot of design and play-testing went into certain rules and they're the way they are for a good reason. I don't like to change them too flippantly.

I have a LOT of characters because I like to have someone for any type of game on a moment's notice. What games are available on any particular night at any particular game store changes and I don't even want to not be able to play on game night. I have different levels for different tiers and different classes for different party make-ups. With AL, all my characters are interchangeable at all the different places I play--stores, conventions, at people's houses. Keeping a completely separate cast of characters that fall under different rules isn't practical and largely defeats the point of playing in AL.


Need more info OP. What's your alignment? Then we can tell you exactly what to do about this :smallamused:.

I would probably say CN if asked but apparently I'm lawful neutral cause I'm all "Play by dah rulezzzeezz, dang it!" ;)