Quick and dirty Wildshape/Polymorph restricitons

[Morphic tide]

So, everyone knows how broken Wildshape and Polymorph spells get. This is my quick attempt at giving guidelines to curb the worst abuses:

1: Abilities that copy the effect of a spell, regardless of type, can only be used if your hit dice are equal to three times the spell level, according to the Sorcerer spell list. If the spell is not on the Sorcerer spell list, the decreasing order of priority is Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Paladin, and then the highest spell level among other classes. Abilities that copy a Psionic power use the highest power level among the Psion, Wilder and Psychic Warrior power lists.

2: Abilities that grant spellcasting as a specified class use your spell slots in your highest level casting class. If you do not have spell slots, then you count your level in the specified class as one third your hit dice, unless the ability specifies spellcasting of a lower level.

3: The total added Dexterity, Constitution and Strength modifiers from assuming a form cannot exceed your number of hit dice plus your Constitution modifier.

4: The Damage Resistance, Fast Healing, Regeneration and Energy Resistance of an assumed form cannot exceed your hit dice, counting each ability separately. For example, if a form has Fire Resistance 5 and Acid Resistance 5, then you must have 10 hit dice to use these qualities. If the form has DR 5/Magic, then you must have five hit dice to have the full Damage Resistance, but this does not increase the hit dice needed for the Energy Resistance.

5: If you do not have a high enough number of hit dice to qualify for an ability granted by a form, then you may reduce the strength of the ability until your hit dice are high enough. For example, if you have 7 hit dice and a form you assume has DR 8/Magic, a total Energy Resistance of 10 and a total additional modifier to Dexterity, Constitution and Strength of 16, you can reduce the DR to 7, the total energy resistance to 7 and the total additional ability score modifier to 14, choosing how the lost abilities are distributed.

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For a more in depth example, let's say a level 6 Druid wants to turn into an Aranea, ignoring whatever hoops have to be jumped through to be able to turn into a Magical Beast for the sake of the example. Araneas have a +0 to Strength, +2 to Dexterity and +2 to Constitution, so the Druid would have to have a total of -9 to Constitution and Dexterity for them to not be able to use the physical ability scores of the Aranea form, which is technically possible. If they did, they'd have to reduce the Dexterity or Constitution modifier of the form by one to use it. As they are a 6th level Druid, the Aranea's spells cast from their Druid spell slots, but they still are restricted to the 3rd level Sorcerer Spells Known list an Aranea would have. This also requires them to be able to have the spellcasting ability provided by the form somehow in the first place before the restriction kicks in.

So, comments on how much it slows down the Polymorph and Wildshape abuses? It's very much adding to existing restrictions, so you have to be in a situation to access abilities effected by this stuff are available in the first place before the restrictions come into play.

And for those wondering what an Aranea is, it's apparently a type of Sorcerer-Spider-Lychanthrope thing. Like, it has a spider-hybrid form, casts as a 3rd level Sorcerer, has 3d10+6 hit points and is generally a magical spider person thing. I stumbled into it while looking at Magical Beasts for an example on the SRD. It has +4 LA, so if you want to play a sorcerer that is also a shapeshifting spider, go ahead. Seems like a good choice for an Underdark campaign, given the racial skills. Link to the SRD page I found it on. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm)

[eggynack]

Eh, I don't think it solves most of the real present craziness that wild shape is capable of. Dunno about polymorph. Wild shape never really grants casting unless you go really far out of your way with MoMF or something. What rare casting emulation that exists is, I would think, typically within the bounds you describe anyway. Might be some rare exceptions. On stat modification, I tend to find that most creatures have an inclination towards either strength or dexterity, rarely both, and that's kinda the way you want it. You can mostly just eat the hit to constitution. As for the fast healing, regeneration, and the resistances, the first two you probably don't care as much about what the number is as you do that there's a number in the first place, and the last two are generally nice bonuses to already good forms. DR in particular rarely comes in great forms.

Meanwhile, there's an absolute ton of stuff that this does nothing to curb. I'ma start with the two best low level animals, desmodu hunting bat and fleshraker. The former has nothing basically besides stats, flight, and if you pick up enhance wild shape, blindsense. The latter two aren't hit at all, so what you're dealing with is a +7 dexterity mod, a +2 strength, and a +1 constitution. You're not hitting crap anyway, and your constitution is higher than +1 in all likelihood, so this is only a penalty of any kind if you have a -3 to dexterity, and even then only at fifth level exactly. The fleshraker, meanwhile, gets +3 strength, +4 dexterity, and +2 constitution. Again, your con is likely higher than that, so it's all down to that +7. Here too, you'd have to be doing some pretty crazy things with your stats in order to get them low enough for this to make a difference. It's possible, certainly, but at this point you're nerfing a druid build, not druids in general.

So, more esoteric stuff. Blink dog cares. You get dimension door three levels late. Nilshai doesn't care. Dire tortoise doesn't really care. Meteor dragon, shadow dragon, really anything except for I guess song dragon and maybe lu lung, none of them particularly care (their energy defense is in the form of immunities). Will-o'-wisp still does its thing just fine, as does dharculus, and what I think is straight up most aberration forms in existence. Which of those grant anything like spells? Myconid sovereign kinda gets animate dead, but that lines up with when you get plant forms so it's irrelevant.

So, in summary, not really sure what this is stopping, exactly. It kinda reads like a nerf to exactly exalted wild shape, which is the third best wild shape feat. It's not like aranea is actually a thing that can be done. There's no explicit ability type, so it's pretty much definitely natural, and at the very best ambiguous. In that sense, it's kinda a fix for a problem that doesn't exist. Wild shape mostly does its thing in terms of abilities that are not explicitly modeled after spells.

[Morphic tide]

Eh, I don't think it solves most of the real present craziness that wild shape is capable of. Dunno about polymorph. Wild shape never really grants casting unless you go really far out of your way with MoMF or something. What rare casting emulation that exists is, I would think, typically within the bounds you describe anyway. Might be some rare exceptions. On stat modification, I tend to find that most creatures have an inclination towards either strength or dexterity, rarely both, and that's kinda the way you want it. You can mostly just eat the hit to constitution. As for the fast healing, regeneration, and the resistances, the first two you probably don't care as much about what the number is as you do that there's a number in the first place, and the last two are generally nice bonuses to already good forms. DR in particular rarely comes in great forms.

Meanwhile, there's an absolute ton of stuff that this does nothing to curb. I'ma start with the two best low level animals, desmodu hunting bat and fleshraker. The former has nothing basically besides stats, flight, and if you pick up enhance wild shape, blindsense. The latter two aren't hit at all, so what you're dealing with is a +7 dexterity mod, a +2 strength, and a +1 constitution. You're not hitting crap anyway, and your constitution is higher than +1 in all likelihood, so this is only a penalty of any kind if you have a -3 to dexterity, and even then only at fifth level exactly. The fleshraker, meanwhile, gets +3 strength, +4 dexterity, and +2 constitution. Again, your con is likely higher than that, so it's all down to that +7. Here too, you'd have to be doing some pretty crazy things with your stats in order to get them low enough for this to make a difference. It's possible, certainly, but at this point you're nerfing a druid build, not druids in general.

So, more esoteric stuff. Blink dog cares. You get dimension door three levels late. Nilshai doesn't care. Dire tortoise doesn't really care. Meteor dragon, shadow dragon, really anything except for I guess song dragon and maybe lu lung, none of them particularly care (their energy defense is in the form of immunities). Will-o'-wisp still does its thing just fine, as does dharculus, and what I think is straight up most aberration forms in existence. Which of those grant anything like spells? Myconid sovereign kinda gets animate dead, but that lines up with when you get plant forms so it's irrelevant.

So, in summary, not really sure what this is stopping, exactly. It kinda reads like a nerf to exactly exalted wild shape, which is the third best wild shape feat. It's not like aranea is actually a thing that can be done. There's no explicit ability type, so it's pretty much definitely natural, and at the very best ambiguous. In that sense, it's kinda a fix for a problem that doesn't exist. Wild shape mostly does its thing in terms of abilities that are not explicitly modeled after spells.

Well, I'd have included stuff like that, but I'd need a fairly large list of common, problematic qualities and then I'd have to put together a list of what qualities are available at given levels. The wording is also problematic...

And the point of the physical ability score restriction is to stop a Druid/Wizard from completely ignoring their physical stats if they want to use Wildshape/Polymorph to be a bruiser. To turn into a Large(I.E., Brown) Bear, you need to be level 6 to be eligible for it due to hit dice. But Brown Bears have 27 Strength, 13 Dexterity and 19 Constitution. So your modifiers have to be within 12 of the modifiers on the Brown Bear to properly use it. Which is far from certain, because of just how big the Strength and Constitution is. It's intentionally easy to be able to get it if you have decent physical scores, but you can't afford to dump them if you want to use the scores on the form really early.

If you have suggestions for what levels particular abilities should be available at, go ahead. I don't have nearly enough knowledge of the stuff the game has to be able to put together a serious list. A maximum number of Natural Attacks is probably in order as well. Maybe a simple limit of half your hit dice, which would neatly hold down Hydra forms. Immunities being downgraded to resistances until some level would be another thing, but again I can't think of good wording.

[eggynack]

Well, I'd have included stuff like that, but I'd need a fairly large list of common, problematic qualities and then I'd have to put together a list of what qualities are available at given levels. The wording is also problematic...
Sure. My big problem is that what you do have limits a surprisingly small percentage of what you're getting. It's odd.


And the point of the physical ability score restriction is to stop a Druid/Wizard from completely ignoring their physical stats if they want to use Wildshape/Polymorph to be a bruiser. To turn into a Large(I.E., Brown) Bear, you need to be level 6 to be eligible for it due to hit dice. But Brown Bears have 27 Strength, 13 Dexterity and 19 Constitution. So your modifiers have to be within 12 of the modifiers on the Brown Bear to properly use it. Which is far from certain, because of just how big the Strength and Constitution is. It's intentionally easy to be able to get it if you have decent physical scores, but you can't afford to dump them if you want to use the scores on the form really early.
You have to be level eight to be a brown bear, cause they're large. The total modifier we're working with here is a +13, and the modifier granted is a +16. You're down on constitution by maybe a modifier point, so it's really more like a +10, meaning you have to be like a -6 on combined strength and dexterity to feel the effect at all. Something like, "The modifiers apply directly to your existing modifiers, instead of replacing them," would do the job better, though it probably wouldn't be perfect.


If you have suggestions for what levels particular abilities should be available at, go ahead. I don't have nearly enough knowledge of the stuff the game has to be able to put together a serious list. A maximum number of Natural Attacks is probably in order as well. Maybe a simple limit of half your hit dice, which would neatly hold down Hydra forms. Immunities being downgraded to resistances until some level would be another thing, but again I can't think of good wording.
Well, first of all, a quick fix would probably mean getting rid of enhance wild shape entirely, and assume supernatural ability too for that matter. That turns off most aberration stuff. Might should get rid of dragons entirely, or maybe ditch anything that isn't base true dragon abilities, movement modes, stat stuff, breath weapons, and maybe immunities. Makes it a really good feat, but cuts off a lot of the really interesting stuff. Exalted, you could probably get away with just ditching the blink dog's dimension door. That leaves you with what is essentially enhance wild shape for plant forms, a couple of unicorn things, and some miss chance if you want it. Frozen is, I suppose, a problem based strictly off of hydra form. You can apply whatever specific fixes to that you want.

So, that mostly just leaves animals and the combat oriented plants. You might want to just specifically ban dire tortoise, especially if you're getting rid of hydra effectiveness (cause I'd contend this base form is already plausibly more problematic than hydra). Plants and animals are still obviously quite good, though some modification on the stat thing would go a long way. You are, at least, working with stuff that's way less powerful and way more straightforward. It's mostly just movement modes, statistical upgrades, and combat abilities. Shorter list of stuff to contend with at least.

[bekeleven]

This is a whole lot of math on top of an already rather mathy ability for a reduction in some abusive forms, but not all of them.

This is why I gave my shifter a known forms list: So that I, as a GM, could explicitly tell the player ahead of time, "No, that's not acceptable for you to turn into." Banning problem forms is the only real way to prevent abuse. You could also choose to whitelist instead of blacklisting, but both would take a ton of effort to do beforehand.

[eggynack]

This is a whole lot of math on top of an already rather mathy ability for a reduction in some abusive forms, but not all of them.
Honestly not even sure if it is some of them. I'm somewhat hard pressed to come up with useful forms that this applies to, aside from blink dog and the rare dragon.

[bekeleven]

Honestly not even sure if it is some of them. I'm somewhat hard pressed to come up with useful forms that this applies to, aside from blink dog and the rare dragon.

It covers a lot if you consider "Straight 6s in physical stats as the party beatstick" as abusive.

[eggynack]

It covers a lot if you consider "Straight 6s in physical stats as the party beatstick" as abusive.
Not really though. First, you likely won't have straight 6s in physical stats. Constitution is going to be at least 14. So, to the extent constitution for non-HP purposes matters, even perfectly keeping up with animal con mods won't take a big bite out of your physical stats. So, we're talking about just strength and dexterity. Assume those are both 6 (which is pretty atypical, even at higher optimization levels, unless maybe if you're an anthro bat specifically), and assume level six. Level five isn't as important, cause that's before natural spell. So, you have a total +12 to work with. We subtract out the druid's mods, so call it +8. What medium creature gets +8 in strength and dexterity combined? Black bear doesn't. It gets +6 total. Deinonychus gets +6 too, and that only brushes against the limit if you assume we want to grab the 19 constitution too. I already noted that desmodu hunting bat doesn't, and that fleshraker doesn't either. Leopard, shark, wolf, none of them even get all that close. It'd be honestly challenging to name a form that's impacting.

By the time you get to large forms, we're talking a +16, which means the strength and dexterity have to tally up to +12 to make a dent of any kind. I'm not really interested in doing that again for large forms, but it honestly seems doubtful they're going to get there. Animal stats are good, but they're not this good. Not usually. And by the time you get to plant forms, the limit has gone to +20, which seems so far out of reach. Because, let's get serious here, a legendary bear, the 20 HD bear god, only gets a +13 to strength and a +2 to dexterity. You could be getting nearly all of that at level nine.

So, in summary, I'm not even entirely convinced that there exists a creature you can become which would get hit by this rule. At least in terms besides constitution. Or, like, I'm sure it exists, in my heart, because monsters are plentiful, but I haven't found it (I haven't looked that hard). Maybe if you're an anthropomorphic bat? Even then, I'd expect the hit to be minimal. Even if you can find such a creature, it's not necessarily going to be better than the competition.

[Cosi]

This fix is too complicated to be "quick and dirty". Any fix that wants to claim that needs to replace the abilities in question, otherwise you're just adding even more steps to the already horrifying process of evaluating exactly what any particular polymorph line spell does.

The "quick and dirty" fix is to write a new set of polymorph effects that directly apply buffs to your character, not to try and write a set of restrictions that produce something balanced when layered on top of "grab some abilities out of a monster book".

A quick fix looks something like this:

disguise self
1st level Transmutation
As existing disguise self, but physical transformation. New form must be of your size and type. You may not assume the form of specific (Frank the Troll), unique (the Tarrasque), or templated (Half Dragon Ogre) creatures.

alter self
3rd level Transmutation
Select an effect from a list of buffs roughly equivalent to 2nd level spells, and a set of physical stat buffs.
As disguise self, but you can assume a form of at most one size category larger or smaller than yourself.

polymorph
5th level Transmutation
Select an effect from a list of buffs roughly equivalent to 4th level spells, and a set of physical stat buffs.
As alter self, but you can assume the form of any living creature (not constructs or undead, possibly not elementals or oozes).

polymorph any object
7th level Transmutation
Select an effect from a list of buffs roughly equivalent to 6th level spells, and a set of physical stat buffs.
As polymorph, but you can assume the form of any creature of any size. You may assume the form of templated creatures.

shapechange
9th level Transmutation
Select an effect from a list of buffs roughly equivalent to 8th level spells, and a set of physical stat buffs.
Each round, you may select a new form. A new forms statistics are based on your form prior to casting shapechange. Nothing carries over between shapechange forms.
As polymorph any object, but you may assume the form of unique or specific creatures.

There are some kinks to work out. I'm not super satisfied with polymorph any object as a name for a spell with this function, disguise self and alter self imply different targeting restrictions than the others, the lists of buffs need to be worked out, the amount of stat buffs you get need to be worked out, and language needs to be formalized properly. You might also want more complex menus of buffs. But once you do all that, you have something that can be smoothly adjudicated by looking at just the spell and the character sheet, which is roughly ten steps simpler than the suggested fix (that's barely an exaggeration if it is at all).

For stuff that isn't polymorph spells, you can do something similar. Alternate forms should just be like one of the spells, but with a pre-selected list of forms. Ditto for Wild Shape and any similar abilities.

[Morphic tide]

Alternatively, I could try to spell out the mechanics for what counts as being "familiar" with a creature, with some form of spelled-out limit to how many creatures you can cover with that. As for being almost-irrelevant, I can fix that fairly quickly by shifting up the numbers. The point is to lay down a general set of restrictions for limiting all abilities that give you different forms, rather than fixing the existing methods of doing that.

How does changing the Ability Score change limitation to only your Hit Dice + Con modifier sound for tying down the bruiser-form? I could also put together a table for the special qualities and what they are downgraded to if you don't meet the requirements, which might include an ability score minimum for some of them, and maybe a sort of virtual spell slot/power point system for covering the uses limits of abilities at particular spell level equivalents. But I'd need a list of special qualities for that to properly work out.

I'm open to suggestions, really. Like, Flight's issue is that nobody involved in first party development ever considered how much of a pain fighting something that can stay at the edge of it's range directly above you is. Wizards and Travel Domain Clerics get flight for minutes per level at level 5 as a 3rd level spell, as an example. So having Flight be caped by speed based on the score, like 2.5-10 times whatever number gets used, is a decent way to go about it.

[eggynack]

[QUOTE]How does changing the Ability Score change limitation to only your Hit Dice + Con modifier sound for tying down the bruiser-form?
It's closer, certainly, though I'd have to check with that new value in mind. A lot of really good stat-ish forms are going to be fine though, I'd suspect.


I could also put together a table for the special qualities and what they are downgraded to if you don't meet the requirements, which might include an ability score minimum for some of them, and maybe a sort of virtual spell slot/power point system for covering the uses limits of abilities at particular spell level equivalents. But I'd need a list of special qualities for that to properly work out.
A table of special qualities would be possible as regards animals. They mostly just have movement modes and vision modes, and you have the occasional weird thing like the dung snake with its fast healing. Plants are somewhat more challenging. They actually have some degree of aberration vibe to them, what with their weird vine/tentacle attacks, and their occasional wonky special quality like regeneration and animate dead. Not saying this is important for straight up druids, but just look at the udoroot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/udoroot.htm). It gets psionic double actions as an extraordinary special quality for some reason. That's such an aberration thing, y'know?

Aberrations are basically impossible. The majority of interesting aberrations have completely different abilities. Different from each other, and different from most monsters in the game. Even the simpler stuff like vision modes is weird. You get ordinary abilities like blindsight out to absurd distances, and oddly unique variations on those abilities like an ethergaunt's total vision. And on top of that you get wonky stuff like double actions in multiple varieties, or immunity to magic, or the ability to hang out on the ethereal plane and send tentacles into the material, presumably allowing casting from that position. The only advice I could really offer there is to just read through what I have in the handbook, because I think it's a relatively complete list. Might not be fully complete though, because I could have left something out that wouldn't be good enough with everything else on the level that it's on.

Exalted is straightforward. Nerf blink dog, unicorns seem mostly fine, and everything else is an extension of animal nerfs. Dragons are harder, but not aberration hard. Checking my list on that is, again, a good way to go. I suspect it's more straightforwardly complete, and the abilities gained tend to be more on the simple side. You might face a weird immunity, or shadow blend, or gaseous form with casting, but nothing on the level of aberrations.

Point is, the list of special abilities is long. Damn long. My info is solid, but I'd think that my suggested nerfs of just ditching special qualities near entirely is the better way to go than trying to take down every quality individually. Enhance wild shape was likely a mistake.