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Giegue
2017-04-07, 06:58 AM
Not sure how balanced this is, but I'd like some thoughts/opinions. It's a rough "conversion" of the Ur-Priest from 3.5e, but with a slight change in fluff. The main one being I never understood why Ur-Priests had to be "evil" and, likewise, why they use wisdom to steal magic from the gods. To me, stealing magic from the gods would be more charisma-based, not wisdom-based (as your either tricking the gods into giving you magic like a cleric (cha/bluff) or your outright wresting control of that magic via force of personality when all goes south.), so I decided to use the fact you get your domain at 1st level to swap the cleric's main stat from wisdom to cha. Anyway, beyond that, not sure if this one is balanced or not....so any and all opinions on it would be appreciated! Without further hesitation...I give you the domain!


Divine Domain: Blasphemy

http://i.imgur.com/RL1IP.jpg

In a world where the Gods are very real and ever-present, it is rare that people openly defy them. However, in rare cases some individuals become so bold and brazen that they spit in the face of the divine, committing the ultimate transgression against the natural order of the multiverse. Such individuals are those "clerics" who possess the blasphemy domain, and their transgression is the theft of divine magic from the Gods. These "clerics" gain their divine magics not through a connection to a deity but instead by by tricking the Gods into offering it to them as they do their trusted clerics. When they do this however, they must quickly wrest control of those magics through sheer force of personality, as their ruse can easily be discovered.

The reasons one may turn to such an art are as varied as the deities from which they steal. Some clerics of blasphemy are simply playfully defiant; they do not hate the divine but instead seek to test their limits and see how much they can get away with. Others may be born out of desperation, turning to the theft of divine magic when their prayers to the gods went unanswered in a moment of need. However, perhaps the most well-known clerics of blasphemy are those who outright hate the gods. Such "Ur-Priests" are often ex-clerics or ex-paladins who where wronged by their faith, and as a result they violently oppose religion in any form. Unlike less dogmatic blasphemy clerics, these individuals actively use their powers to weaken the gods and destroy their followers, counting themselves among the enemies of the divine order of the multiverse.

Domain Spells

1st: Disguise Self, Inflict Wounds
3rd: Invisibility, Pass Without Trace
5th: Counterspell, Nondetection
7th: Banishment, Blight
9th: Circle of Power, Greater Invisibility

Armor of Lies

You lies hold such divine power that by convincing yourself of the falsehood that you are impervious is true, you can magically protect yourself from harm. Starting at 1st level, you use your Charisma modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier when calculating Armor Class. If your armor has a max Dex bonus, this also applies to your Charisma.

Consumate Trickster

When you select this domain at 1st level, you gain proficiency with the Deception skill. If you already have proficiency with Deception, you gain proficiency with one Charisma-based skill of your choice instead. You use double your proficiency bonus on all Deception checks you Additionallt, you also add your proficiency bonus to all saving throws you make against magical lie detection effects (such as Zone of Truth). If you would already add your proficiency bonus to such a saving throw, you add double your proficiency bonus instead.

Channel Divinity: Reverse Healing

At 2nd level, you gain the following Channel Divinity option:

Reverse Healing. You present your holy symbol in a mockery of a true cleric's channeling as a bonus action on your turn, spending a use of your Channel Divinity to invert healing energies around you. For 1 minute, hostile creature within 60 feet of you can regain hit points due to magic. Instead, when a creature would regain hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw or take necrotic damage equal to half the amount it would have regained

Siphon Spell Power

At 6th level, you learn how to siphon greater spell power from the Gods by expending your own magical energies. As a bonus action, you can expend two spell slots of one level to gain one spell slot of of the next highest level. (So, for example, you can expend two 3rd level slots to gain one 4th level spell slot.). While this does allow you to create slots of a higher level than you can normally access, this does not allow you to prepare spells of those levels. Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Swift Siphon

At 8th level, you gain the power to quickly siphon magic from the Gods. As a bonus action, you can spend one use of your Channel Divinity to steal a spell from the gods. When you do this, you switch out one of your Cleric spells prepared for the day for another of equal level from the Cleric spell list. You can use this feature once, and regain all spent uses when you finish a long rest.

Steal Spell

At 17th level, you time spent stealing magic from the gods gives you the knowledge needed to also steal magics from other spellcasters. Immediately after a creature casts a spell that targets you or includes you in it's area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. This DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell's effects against you, and you steal knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast. (It does not need to be a cleric spell) Until you complete a long rest, that spell is prepared for you and you can cast it as a cleric spell. The creature you stole that spell from also is unable to cast it until you complete a long rest. You can only have one stolen spell prepared at a time, though you can use this ability while you already have a stolen spell prepared. When you do this, you lose your current prepared stolen spell and prepare the new one in its place if you successfully steal it.

Note: Blasphemy Clerics and Divine Intervention

Blasphemy Clerics still gain the Divine Intervention feature, but the fluff behind how they use it differs from that of regular clerics. Instead of calling down the aid of their deity, Blasphemy Clerics siphon divine energy to attempt to produce a false miracle when they use Divine Intervention. The feature is mechanically unchanged; this is merely a flavor difference.

zeek0
2017-04-19, 07:06 AM
Ooooooo, this one is fun. I'll be sure to add it to the homebrew pile.

I have three critiques:

The first is thematic. While I concede that a caster that steals magic from the gods through force of will and guile is possible, I don't think that it describes an ur priest.
An ur priest simply learns the keys and fashions to draw upon divine power, without the normally requisite belief. Imagine the Gods created a complex vending machine, and decreed: "Only those we love and who worship us may be granted the knowledge to work this Vending Machine." Then the ur priest figures out how to do it anyway.
This, to me, better describes the ur priest, especially those fallen clerics that hate the gods. They still draw power from the same source and in the same fashion, but without the will or love of the gods.

My second critique is on the subject of reverse healing. This feature is thematically sound, but rarely useful. On top of this, it isn't a reaction to healing, just a preventative measure. To fix this, I would make it a reaction, and make it work on all healing, not just magical healing. This would make it work on trolls, which are not divine but still heal themselves through other means.

My third is about spell stealing. This is a cool ability, but is unfortunately relegated to 17th level where no one will reach it. The ability would scale with level in any case. Could it go instead to 8th level? Swift siphon isn't terribly exciting. (I also wonder if we could get this to work on monster abilities, as it did in 3.5? T'would be fun).

I'm fine with turning this into a conversation; let me know what you think!

Morphic tide
2017-04-19, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=zeek0;21930705]My second critique is on the subject of reverse healing. This feature is thematically sound, but rarely useful. On top of this, it isn't a reaction to healing, just a preventative measure. To fix this, I would make it a reaction, and make it work on all healing, not just magical healing. This would make it work on trolls, which are not divine but still heal themselves through other means.[QUOTE]

My counter to this is that Clerics have magical healing of their own. Meaning that they can turn their own Cure Wounds into a variant of Inflict Wounds whenever they feel the need.

zeek0
2017-04-19, 02:09 PM
My counter to this is that Clerics have magical healing of their own. Meaning that they can turn their own Cure Wounds into a variant of Inflict Wounds whenever they feel the need.

Well sure. But healing spells do dramatically less damage than damage spells at the same level. Cure wounds gives 1d8+casting stat; inflict wounds deals 3d10 damage. No sane Ur priest would use their channel divinity so they can deal 1/2 the damage they usually would.

Morphic tide
2017-04-19, 02:32 PM
Well sure. But healing spells do dramatically less damage than damage spells at the same level. Cure wounds gives 1d8+casting stat; inflict wounds deals 3d10 damage. No sane Ur priest would use their channel divinity so they can deal 1/2 the damage they usually would.

Prepared casting panic buttons. It rarely matters how bad the option is, when you have no damage spells readied and you need damage right now, anything helps.

zeek0
2017-04-19, 03:10 PM
Prepared casting panic buttons. It rarely matters how bad the option is, when you have no damage spells readied and you need damage right now, anything helps.

Oh come off it, any cleric worth their salt will have one damage spell in their repetoire. No one would trade versatility for 1/2 damage.

However, I found greater problems.

I have done more research, and here's what I found.
Better options include healing word/mass healing word, which gives you some bonus action damage (not much damage, but good for getting as much damage into a round as possible).

Heal is a strong choice, dealing a bit less than the average damage of disintegrate and 50% more than Harm at the same level. It has the odd effect of removing status conditions from your victim...

Mass Heal... would do 700 damage. Well that's that's problem. Meteor Swarm would do that much to 5 creatures that hit didn't succeed on their save. But 700 to a single creature would one-shot any monster in the game if it hit.

This subclass is suuuuper OP.

(In seriousness: a solution would be to deal damage to the target scaling with spell level, say 1d12.)

Morphic tide
2017-04-19, 03:27 PM
Oh come off it, any cleric worth their salt will have one damage spell in their repetoire. No one would trade versatility for 1/2 damage.

However, I found greater problems.

I have done more research, and here's what I found.
Better options include healing word/mass healing word, which gives you some bonus action damage (not much damage, but good for getting as much damage into a round as possible).

Heal is a strong choice, dealing a bit less than the average damage of disintegrate and 50% more than Harm at the same level. It has the odd effect of removing status conditions from your victim...

Mass Heal... would do 700 damage. Well that's that's problem. Meteor Swarm would do that much to 5 creatures that hit didn't succeed on their save. But 700 to a single creature would one-shot any monster in the game if it hit.

This subclass is suuuuper OP.

(In seriousness: a solution would be to deal damage to the target scaling with spell level, say 1d12.)

Actually, Mass spells are probably a great way to use it: If you don't have a full load of targets for your Mass healing, then you can divert some of them to enemies subject to the debuff for damage on the same action as healing.

Flashy
2017-04-19, 05:11 PM
Actually, Mass spells are probably a great way to use it: If you don't have a full load of targets for your Mass healing, then you can divert some of them to enemies subject to the debuff for damage on the same action as healing.

Except the channel divinity doesn't discriminate between friend and foe, it's all creatures within 60 of you. 60 feet is the range of both the mass healing spells (and even if it wasn't this still wouldn't be very good).

I completely agree with Zeek0, reverse healing only ever borderline useless or borderline game breaking.

Morphic tide
2017-04-19, 05:39 PM
Except the channel divinity doesn't discriminate between friend and foe, it's all creatures within 60 of you. 60 feet is the range of both the mass healing spells (and even if it wasn't this still wouldn't be very good).

I completely agree with Zeek0, reverse healing only ever borderline useless or borderline game breaking.

Round 1: Have Cleric in front, allow enemies within 60 ft, possibly by having the Cleric charge and party members out of it.
Round 2: Cleric has likely taken damage, uses Channel Divinity to inflict debuff, party charges in after.
Round 3: Cleric uses mass, large-ish, heal to heal significant chunk of health from self and party while dealing damage to enemies. Have in round 2 if Bonus Action applies to either heal or channel divinity.

Sure, it's probably woefully inefficient, but it'll make the effect useful.

Flashy
2017-04-19, 08:44 PM
Round 1: Have Cleric in front, allow enemies within 60 ft, possibly by having the Cleric charge and party members out of it.
Round 2: Cleric has likely taken damage, uses Channel Divinity to inflict debuff, party charges in after.
Round 3: Cleric uses mass, large-ish, heal to heal significant chunk of health from self and party while dealing damage to enemies. Have in round 2 if Bonus Action applies to either heal or channel divinity.

Sure, it's probably woefully inefficient, but it'll make the effect useful.

As written, the wording is currently " For 1 minute, no creature within 60 feet of you can regain hit points due to magic."

It doesn't matter where the creatures are the turn channel divinity is used, for the next minute nothing within 60 feet of the cleric regains hitpoints.

zeek0
2017-04-19, 11:49 PM
As written, the wording is currently " For 1 minute, no creature within 60 feet of you can regain hit points due to magic."

It doesn't matter where the creatures are the turn channel divinity is used, for the next minute nothing within 60 feet of the cleric regains hitpoints.

Agreed.

But in the interest of making this ability relevant, we could allow the cleric to choose for healing to occur. This soul make mass healing spells a kind of incisive choice of dealing damage/healing whoever you like within range. Sure, it's less damage than the aoe spells, but it will only damage enemies and heal allies.

EDIT: *Sigh*. But a problem still remains with mass heal. You could allocate 1 point of 'healing' to all your nearby enemies, and still have 680+ health to allocate to your allies. Wouldn't be balanced at all - it's like casting two 9th level spells at the same time.