How are 5th incorporeal undead?

[Albions_Angel]

More or less what the title says. From reading them over, they seem a little... underwhelming. But I dont yet have a situation in which to test them against my players to know for sure.

In particular, they seem very easy to damage now, and pose nowhere near as much of a threat, with only a +5 to attack (and now no touch AC stuff to contend with). But am I just reading them wrong?

How did you find them?

[MrStabby]

They are OK, if underwhelming if you play them in a white room style encounter. On the other hand hit and run spectre attacks within a labyrinth can be scary. Ghosts emerging through walls to attack those at the back of the party or the wounded and weak can be very effective.

The presence/threat of ghosts also adds tension to encounters as the party can't believe they are always safe.

I also think that they can be scaled up a bit without harm - higher CR, tougher, more damage some nice effects on a hit. Shadow Str drain is always scary for players.

Ghost sorcerers or similar can be fun - caster adds a lot of extra flexibility (anything with dispel magic and counterspell remains that bit more of a threat at higher levels when spells could otherwise shut down an encounter).

[solidork]

In one campaign we nearly got TPKd by a lone banshee. Three person party, two of us failed against the wail, including the only person with healing spells.

In a recent campaign we very nearly died against some wraiths because we were in a 5ft wide hallway and couldn't easily retreat because of an extra long pit trap behind us. A couple of solid hits reduced the Wizard's max HP to five, so he had to run and featherfall himself to the bottom of the pit trap. The GM was kind and had them focus their attacks on the paladin that had Protection from Good and Evil active.

[MrStabby]

Banshees are ok for an encounter at low levels, but are very potent at high levels. One banshee might force a few failed saves and take a few party members to 0hp at low levels, but those with decent wisdom saves are likely to be the people who bring them back most easily. The banshee herself is weak enough that even if someone is running around stabilising the rest of the party then you are still probably able to win.

If you scale number of banshees to appropriate encounter XP then when you get up to level 10 you are looking at multiple banshees, multiple saves vs going down. Some party members will have improved wisdom saves but some won't. The healers have to keep getting lucky on every save to stay in the fight.

[Maxilian]

Banshees are a pain in group (and i don't think is really fun -so one or 2 per encounter, if need to make it harder, just add more HP, increase the DC or just add minions.)

Shadows are simple creatures, they are quite weak, but they can be a pain in the ass for most groups even if they are high lvls, depending how you play the Shadow.

Note: Talking about incorporeal undeads, can you mount them? (or can they carry you?)

[Dr. Cliché]

It certainly seems weird that an incorporeal creature can be hurt by nonmagical weapons. I'd have thought it would make more sense for them to be immune to nonmagical weapons and take half damage from magical ones.

In terms of my experiences, the only one that stands out was against a banshee. However, I think it had been modified - as, among other things, its wail aged people instead of dropping them to 0 (incidentally, ageing is terrifying for AArakorca).

Otherwise, I can't recall any incorporeal undead posing a serious challenge to any of the parties I've been in.

[UberMagus]

I think the reason they removed the "requires magic weapon to hit" is because magic weapons just aren't supposed to be common...

It's supposed to not be unusual for a party to have little to no magic items for quite a while...

[Mellack]

Shadows are only CR 1/2, Specters Cr 1 and even Ghosts are only CR 4. Many (perhaps most) adventerers at those low levels will not have magic weapons. If they were to make them immune to non-magical attacks, half or more of a party would be helpless. If they were to get a surprise and take out the wizard and/or cleric, it very well could be the party has nothing at all they would be able to do. Even with the casters up it is fairly boring sitting on you thumbs, perhaps doing a help action. I woul be pretty depressed if I could contribute no more than a wizard's familiar.

[Asmotherion]

I think the reason they removed the "requires magic weapon to hit" is because magic weapons just aren't supposed to be common...

It's supposed to not be unusual for a party to have little to no magic items for quite a while...

Which I think is for the best, as you get to experience your PC's abilityes first hand, instead of relying mostly on a set of matching magic items to do everything.

I love the Incorporeal Undead.

I've used them both as Boss encounters for low levels, and as hoards at higher levels. Yes, they are not quite as imune to things as they used to, but they make up for it. As a Boss (or boss lair fodder) they can be a pain. They all have either some permanent or virtually permanent effect, and an encounter with one, if not well prepared, will be remembered. A hoard of ghosts has a high persentage of possesing a party member. As a DM you may make the possesion dormant for a wile, and activate it on the right(worst) moment, or even roll secretly to add a sence of paranoia among the party about who might or might not be possesed. Horrific Vissage, if used by enough ghosts, can end a PCs life permanently, even beyon the grasp of True Resurection (theoretically... depends from DM to DM, and setting to setting as it can quallify both as a curse or old age), and is one of the most dangerous effects in the game. The Wraith can spawn new wraiths, either by killed PCs, or, as a grievous cinematic, by killing nearby NPCs... Will-o-wisps can use their seemingly harmless appearance to lure adventurers to what appears to be a town, only to discover it's a ghost-town inhabited by all sorts of hungry undead.

[Kane0]

Like most monsters, they are lacklustre in a straight up fight. Play them to their strengths and they get much more interesting (read: lethal).

If in doubt, use some walls/ceilings/floors for cover. Hit and run attacks also work very well.

[Potato_Priest]

Shadows are perhaps one of the most under-rated monsters. In significant numbers, they are a very credible threat to even the highest level characters, being able to sap strength for a kill regardless of HP. They are also practically invisible, and so are very easy to add into another fight as a surprise trap/ambush.

[Dr. Cliché]

Shadows are only CR 1/2, Specters Cr 1 and even Ghosts are only CR 4. Many (perhaps most) adventerers at those low levels will not have magic weapons. If they were to make them immune to non-magical attacks, half or more of a party would be helpless.

A wererat is CR2. A werewolf is CR3. Wereboars and weretigers are CR4. All of these also have immunity to nonmagical weapons.

Why is it fine for some low-level monsters to have this immunity, but not the ones where it actually makes sense? :smallconfused:

Also, without wishing to blow anyone's mind, wouldn't immunity to nonmagical weapons on those undead you mentioned also increase their CR? Hell, you could buff them in other areas too if you wanted to beef up their CR even more. It's not like there's any necessity for them to have such low CRs in the first place.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

A wererat is CR2. A werewolf is CR3. Wereboars and weretigers are CR4. All of these also have immunity to nonmagical weapons.
Also, without wishing to blow anyone's mind, wouldn't immunity to nonmagical weapons on those undead you mentioned also increase their CR? Hell, you could buff them in other areas too if you wanted to beef up their CR even more. It's not like there's any necessity for them to have such low CRs in the first place.


I was going to say there's a big difference between CR 1/4 and CR 2 or 3, but your second point blew my mind. Given how nasty Shadow Strength drain can be, there's no reason not to give the immunity to nonmagical weapons, a couple other minor improvements, and bump up the CR a bit.