[3.5] SRD Monk Build Critique

[AnimeTheCat]

Hello all! I've been working with a new DM to try and get their DM legs under them so they're wanting to run a bit of a lower power game as their first try without my help. Some things I know about the DM before I present the build to keep in context when critiquing the build:

1. The DM is only allowing what is available on the SRD so under no circumstances will any other support be allowed than what is listed on the d20SRD website.
2. The DM will be using monster stat blocks as written and NPC classed characters will use the non-elite starting stats, and NPCs with character class levels will be using the elite stat block.
3. PCs are using the 32 point buy
4. No PC is allowed to play a cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard. He wants to make sure he can handle the combat and gameplay basics before magical monkey wrenches get thrown his way.
5. I don't know what level we're starting at but I would think, most likely, level 1 and I don't know the availability of magic items either.

I know the above to be true because those were my recommendations to him for his first full on campaign to keep things simple and manageable.

Now! On to the build. I recently was re-reading the TWF Off-Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) and I thought it would be fun to try and play the ultimate flurry of misses Monk, i.e. using the rules interpretation that you may stack TWF and Flurry of Misses to get MOAR attacks. Since the enemies are going to be lower power I didn't think it would be too terrible of an idea. Here's what I've got.

Race: Human
Stats below will have the score/modifier



Stat
1st
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th


Str
11/+0
12/+1
12/+1
12/+1
13/+1
14/+2


Dex
16/+3
16/+3
17/+3
18/+4
18/+4
18/+4


Con
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0


Int
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1


Wis
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3


Cha
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0





Level 1: Improved Unarmed Attack (Monk 1), Combat Expertise (Human), Improved Initiative (Lvl 1), Improved Grapple (Monk 1)
Level 2: Combat Reflexes (Monk 2)
Level 3: Weapon Finesse (Lvl 3)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes)(lvl 6), Improved Trip (Monk 6)
Level 9: Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 9)
Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 12)
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 15)
Level 18: Two Weapon Defense (Lvl 18... because what else is there?)


What the above *Should* enable is versatility at early levels against mundane creatures and starting at level 9 the ability to move, trip, then trip again if they try to get up, getting free attacks each time and then pummeling them with a flurry/twf blast against their FF AC. ideally at level 9 my attack rolls should be (without magic items) +8/+8/+8/+3.



Level 9 BAB
+6/+1


Level 9 Flurry
+6/+6/+1


Level 9 Flurry w/ Weapon Focus
+7/+7/+2


flurry, Weap Foc, Dex Mod
+10/+10/+5


TWF, Flurry, Weap Foc, Dex Mod
+8/+8/+8/+3



I think the maths are correct. That could mean potentially 1d10+1 damage 4 times on a successful full flurry. I know those bonuses aren't good but I'm not really trying to brutalize everything, just have fun.

Overall, what do you guys think. Where can I shuffle stats/feats? What feats can I take instead? Viability isn't really an issue because his enemies are likely to have ACs of 15-18 regularly for NPC type enemies and there's a barbarian who's focusing on rage, crush, kill so I'm just taking a theory out for a stroll.

[Karl Aegis]

So you're doing about the same amount of damage if all your attacks hit as an ogre mage does in a single hit with around the same armor class. I really don't see you contributing much to an assault on an ogre encampment. Maybe you'll survive an encounter with goblin raiders, but you'll probably die horribly.

[Darrin]

Are the Unearthed Arcana and Divine sections of the SRD available? If so, Knock-Down is in there. Cobra Strike or Overwhelming Attack Monk might be worth a look. Monks can also pick up Cloak Dance. Maybe Improved Critical at 18th? Or take it at 12th and load up on Power Critical.

[Troacctid]

lOverall, what do you guys think. Where can I shuffle stats/feats? What feats can I take instead? Viability isn't really an issue because his enemies are likely to have ACs of 15-18 regularly for NPC type enemies and there's a barbarian who's focusing on rage, crush, kill so I'm just taking a theory out for a stroll.
Improved Grapple is probably not going to be very good with a Strength score like that. You should be taking Stunning Fist instead. Either that or grab one of the variant fighting styles, like Sleeping Tiger for the 1st level Weapon Finesse. (Stunning Fist is pretty legit though.)

My recommendation is to prestige into Psionic Fist, since it's a huge improvement over the base Monk. If psionics are not an option, then go Assassin, Dragon Disciple, or Horizon Walker.

[AnimeTheCat]

Improved Grapple is probably not going to be very good with a Strength score like that. You should be taking Stunning Fist instead. Either that or grab one of the variant fighting styles, like Sleeping Tiger for the 1st level Weapon Finesse. (Stunning Fist is pretty legit though.)

My recommendation is to prestige into Psionic Fist, since it's a huge improvement over the base Monk. If psionics are not an option, then go Assassin, Dragon Disciple, or Horizon Walker.

I feel as though I'm a dunce... Why didn't I think about Psionic Fist or any of the other psionic feats etc... they jive well with Monk. Must re-evaluate and build something better.


Are the Unearthed Arcana and Divine sections of the SRD available? If so, Knock-Down is in there. Cobra Strike or Overwhelming Attack Monk might be worth a look. Monks can also pick up Cloak Dance. Maybe Improved Critical at 18th? Or take it at 12th and load up on Power Critical.

To be quite honest (as is evidence above) I completely forgot that there were things other than the PHB included in the SRD so while I was merrily going by creating my character, I was flipping though my PHB in hardback and didn't even think to look online at what all was on the website. I think that I will be skipping over Knock-Down, Cobra Strike, and Overwhelming Attack Monk though. the theme of my idea is to really just throw lots of punches with decreased chance to hit. Sleeping Tiger may be what I go with if any of them, but there's definitely a lot more content that I had forgotten about on there.


So you're doing about the same amount of damage if all your attacks hit as an ogre mage does in a single hit with around the same armor class. I really don't see you contributing much to an assault on an ogre encampment. Maybe you'll survive an encounter with goblin raiders, but you'll probably die horribly.

You're right, I won't be able to dish out a whole lot of damage, but that's ok. I can do a few other things that are helpful such as be a flanking buddy for the party rogue against the ogres or against the goblins I could be tripping them because y'know... goblins be small... goblins get -4 to resist the trip. To that end, I could park my happy monk bum in front of the archer/bard (in this case because no full caster classes) and trip things that come his way. I don't HAVE to be the damage dealer, I just want to punch things a lot when they're on the ground. It isn't always about damage. I fully admit, however, that grappling is not going to be particularly viable with my strength score. probably will take stunning fist. got some rebuilding to do and re-working.

[J-H]

Get Improved Natural Attack to hit as a Large monk. Your 1d6 only goes to 1d8, but your 1d8 fist goes to 2d6 and your 1d10 fist goes to 2d8. 2d6 goes to 3d6, 2d8 goes to 3d8. No idea what your 2d10 goes to; probably 3d10 or 4d8. It's worth an extra 2-4 damage on every hit for most of your levels.

I would skip Finesse & the dex-based build to go with Strength instead. You gain a feat, keep the same to-hit, get better damage, and only drop 2 or 3 points of AC. 1d8+1 is far worse than 1d8+4.

[emeraldstreak]

Get Improved Natural Attack to hit as a Large monk. Your 1d6 only goes to 1d8, but your 1d8 fist goes to 2d6 and your 1d10 fist goes to 2d8. 2d6 goes to 3d6, 2d8 goes to 3d8. No idea what your 2d10 goes to; probably 3d10 or 4d8. It's worth an extra 2-4 damage on every hit for most of your levels.

I would skip Finesse & the dex-based build to go with Strength instead. You gain a feat, keep the same to-hit, get better damage, and only drop 2 or 3 points of AC. 1d8+1 is far worse than 1d8+4.

2d10->4d8


Absolutely go Strength with Orc if possible, if not Half-Orc. Permanencied Enlarge (till you hit the capstone). Pemanencied Magic Fang. Improved Natural Attack.

[Karl Aegis]

Oh jeez... Please don't be fighting humanoid or giant type creatures. You might be able to survive a few rounds of missile fire from the goblins, but when they equip their lances and charge in on their worgs somebody is going to die because providing cover doesn't work very well versus multiple mounted enemies. You're really going to rely on fighting extremely small numbers of less than mobile enemies (preferably without ranged attacks) to get anywhere.

[Pleh]

I know the monk is notoriously underpowered, but the player and campaign seem to be okay with that.

Do you all think his build is under powered for an underpowered campaign?

I think if there aren't threats worthy of a full caster, it can be hard to mess up, even with a monk. Just roleplay well, strategize, and don't rely on RAW too heavily to make yourself effective. Your DM is learning, so teach them to reward good roleplaying more than build optimization.

[Troacctid]

Psionic Fist and Assassin are reasonably powered.

[AnimeTheCat]

I would consider assassin, but it does kind of require a certain level of being evil which I don't want to be and I want to refrain from rules bending for this guy's first campaign. Psionic fist looks pretty nice except that it doesn't advance flurry which is what I want to use to couple with TWF to get as many attack as possible with the interpretation of rules from the TWF Off-handbook. I think that it should be allowed but that doesn't mean everybody else has to allow it. beside the point though.

Karl Aegis, buddy, I get it. This is in no way a power build and I don't intend for it to be one. This is simply me, a moderately experienced player/DM, trying a concept in a friendly game with a new DM to shake things up and try something new that I haven't done so that I can take the knowledge gained and put it in to future characters/games. Current Party Composition looks to be a Paladin, Bard, Ranger, Barbarian, and myself. Barbarian is a first time player that asked to be able to do as much damage in a single hit as possible for his first try of the game. Paladin is a very experienced player who is going to be there as support and minor emergency healing when necessary. Bard is also very experienced and is trying to be as skillful as possible. Ranger is another first time player who wanted to play a ranged weapon specialist. I want to try hitting things as many times as possible within the confines of SRD and monk enables me to do that. I'm not *particularly interested in damage as many things we will face will likely not have DR, and if they do my fists will be magic so they will bypass a decent chunk of DR. This is an exercise of theory in play for someone who has a bit of experience and wants more.

Unfortunately, full blood Orc is not an option in this case. I would have liked to give it a try. In most of my build theories I used an Orc. I don't want Half-orc because of various flavor reasons and also, i'm not really in to taking two stat penalties for one stat bonus. Thus why I'm vying for weapon finesse. Any investment in to dex improves my AC as well as my to hit with my fists so that seems fairly synergistic for attacking and defending.

Can someone point me at the rules references for unarmed attacks counting as natural weapons please? I trust the collective knowledge and guidance of the posters on this site, but I like to read it for myself and learn in the process so just a book/ability reference would be nice.

I guess I got wrapped up in my original post and forgot to mention that the sheer number of hits was my ultimate goal, not damage per hit. Thanks so far though for the great input though. I'm appreciating people catching my blind spots.

[Venger]

I would consider assassin, but it does kind of require a certain level of being evil which I don't want to be and I want to refrain from rules bending for this guy's first campaign. Psionic fist looks pretty nice except that it doesn't advance flurry which is what I want to use to couple with TWF to get as many attack as possible with the interpretation of rules from the TWF Off-handbook. I think that it should be allowed but that doesn't mean everybody else has to allow it. beside the point though.

Karl Aegis, buddy, I get it. This is in no way a power build and I don't intend for it to be one. This is simply me, a moderately experienced player/DM, trying a concept in a friendly game with a new DM to shake things up and try something new that I haven't done so that I can take the knowledge gained and put it in to future characters/games. Current Party Composition looks to be a Paladin, Bard, Ranger, Barbarian, and myself. Barbarian is a first time player that asked to be able to do as much damage in a single hit as possible for his first try of the game. Paladin is a very experienced player who is going to be there as support and minor emergency healing when necessary. Bard is also very experienced and is trying to be as skillful as possible. Ranger is another first time player who wanted to play a ranged weapon specialist. I want to try hitting things as many times as possible within the confines of SRD and monk enables me to do that. I'm not *particularly interested in damage as many things we will face will likely not have DR, and if they do my fists will be magic so they will bypass a decent chunk of DR. This is an exercise of theory in play for someone who has a bit of experience and wants more.

Unfortunately, full blood Orc is not an option in this case. I would have liked to give it a try. In most of my build theories I used an Orc. I don't want Half-orc because of various flavor reasons and also, i'm not really in to taking two stat penalties for one stat bonus. Thus why I'm vying for weapon finesse. Any investment in to dex improves my AC as well as my to hit with my fists so that seems fairly synergistic for attacking and defending.

Can someone point me at the rules references for unarmed attacks counting as natural weapons please? I trust the collective knowledge and guidance of the posters on this site, but I like to read it for myself and learn in the process so just a book/ability reference would be nice.

I guess I got wrapped up in my original post and forgot to mention that the sheer number of hits was my ultimate goal, not damage per hit. Thanks so far though for the great input though. I'm appreciating people catching my blind spots.

if you want to be Good, just play the avenger instead, it's literally just assassin but without the alignment req.

unarmed strikes are natural and manufactured weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike)

[Eldariel]

You really should make it Strength-based. Both, Trip- and Grapple-checks are Strength-based and you save a feat in the Weapon Finesse, and you even get lots of damage as a bonus. Also, I recommend Con: your AC will always suck because you're a Monk so you need the HP to take some hits. Core Monk chassis I have lying in the corners:

Human/Dwarf Monk 20

Str max
Dex = Wis
Con 14+
Int/Cha dump

1. Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Weapon Focus: UA Strike
6. Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack: UA Strike
9. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
12. Improved Grapple
15. Deflect Arrows


With SRD sources you could get Improved Trip earlier (note, Monk Bonus feats bypass stat requirements so you can dump Int). You could do Human with:

16 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha

With Human, you'd have enough feats to pick up TWF - it forces you to prioritise Dex but so be it. Improved Initiative in the chassis is unnecessary: just pick Improved Grapple instead and put all level-up points into Strength. Get Dex-boosting items to qualify for ITWF and GTWF. You could go 12 Con, 10 Int or something like that too. You could go something like:

1. Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple, Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Improved Trip (Passive Way)
3. E.g. Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike or such
6. Whatever, Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (you need a +2 Dex item)
12. Whatever
15. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (you need a +4 Dex item)
20. Whatever

All your level-ups in Strength would ultimately land you at 32 Strength (34 Enlarged - Enlarge Person is great on someone stacking weapon size categories, and you can get Potions). This keeps you decent at tripping and even somewhat okay at grappling in spite of your BAB sucking. If you can get +5 Mighty Fists, your to hit on level 20 would thus be 15+11+5+1-2 = +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20 for 4d8+16 each. Your Trips are quite good (not Barbarian Good, but sufficient for most Medium/Large opponents)

[animewatcha]

Unless I'm reading the variant styles wrong, while you can leave a style, you can't 'spontaneously' enter it to get improved trip while doing stunning fist as M1. M1 has to be combat expertise or something that counts as it.

[Eldariel]

Unless I'm reading the variant styles wrong, while you can leave a style, you can't 'spontaneously' enter it to get improved trip while doing stunning fist as M1. M1 has to be combat expertise or something that counts as it.

Well, it comes down to this line (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les)):
"A monk can abandon her fighting style by selecting a different bonus feat at 2nd or 6th level; however, if she does so, she loses the bonus on skill checks gained at 1st level and never gains the bonus ability of the fighting style (even if she meets the prerequisites)."

I always read that as the Monk being able to abandon a fighting style and pick a different bonus feat, that is, any other feat a Monk is allowed on those levels (so, the feat from any other fighting style or from the PHB). I'm aware that some people go by the stricter reading where you can only pick one fighting style from level 1 and are stuck with PHB feats as alternatives. Either way, this forfeits the fighting style bonuses but those are rather inconsequential anyways so I don't really care that much. Ultimately, it's not that big a deal to pick Combat Expertise > Improved Trip even though you'll never use Expertise, since SRD-only doesn't really have a sufficient number of feats to fill all your slots with high impact options anyways (though Knock-Down is obviously worth your while - sadly Hidden Talent isn't on the SRD, I believe).

[Troacctid]

You can't pick a different fighting style. You only get one.

What I like to do with Combat Expertise is replace it with the Soulwarp Strike variant from Complete Mage. Since it's not a bonus feat, it doesn't count as abandoning the style to take it at level 1. Of course that's not an allowed source in this game, so, shrug.

[Eldariel]

You can't pick a different fighting style. You only get one.

But what does the "different bonus feat" mean then? What part in the lingo restricts it only to the PHB bonus feats? To me the only sensible reading seems like "other bonus feat available to a Monk on this level" and different fighting styles offer various bonus feats on that level, so...

[Darrin]

You can't pick a different fighting style. You only get one.

There is a variant rule in Oriental Adventures that allows you to pick feats from Table 6-1 on page 79. Expertise (aka Combat Expertise) and Improved Trip are on there, as well as some others like Power Attack. You have to qualify for prereqs, though. Also, it's outside the OP's sources.

[Particle_Man]

What is everyone else playing? If everyone is around your Tier, then the DM can adjust to fit.

And I assume if the "Fab Four" casters are not allowed, then neither is Psion or Wilder?

[Pleh]

What is everyone else playing? If everyone is around your Tier, then the DM can adjust to fit.

And I assume if the "Fab Four" casters are not allowed, then neither is Psion or Wilder?

+1. In fact, allowing the DM to learn how to adjust the difficulty seems to be half the point.

The OP explicitly wants to build a flurry of misses character. It's ok to play a flurry of misses monk. Let it be a test of the new DM's skill.

[Kayblis]

OP, you do understand stuff around level 9 (BAB 6 for you) doesn't have AC 15-18 right? You'll be fighting stuff with AC 25+ around that level, if not earlier. The only things with that AC at that level are faceless mooks that you'll fight in droves. Even then, those minions will have 30+ HP before level 9. Your prospects of damage are 5.5 damage on average per punch, which'll almost always miss on a relevant creature and hits fairly often on irrelevant stuff. For the record, a level 1 raging barbarian with a greatsword and 16 STR deals 2d6+7 with each hit, averaging 14. You're closer to a third of that.

I'm not saying your build sucks or anything, I'm saying you're trying to focus on multiple hits with a class that doesn't have the potential to give meaning to those hits. You're not really wrong here, you're misguided. Before thinking "4 hits is amazing", think "what can each of my hits do?". As you're considering PrCs, I assume you're not focused on just the monk. I suggest getting some precision damage like Sneak Attack, and focusing on STR instead of DEX. A dip in Rogue gives you that and some skillpoints for UMD and Tumble. After that, focus your feats on stuff only YOU can do. If you're not dealing damage, give some meaning to that flurry - disarm, trip, stun and the like. Some monk weapons have Reach, so use that too. Look for something like Sneak Attack feats, when you get at least 2d6 SA you can get feats to reduce movement and give ability penalties.

[AnimeTheCat]

so, lots of things to touch on and I'll try to do it as briefly as possible:

Other Players are Halfling Bard, Half-Orc Barbarian focusing on Power Attack, Paladin focusing on support, and a ranger focusing on archery. The DM is new and he is going to be running a game in a world that I created which focuses HEAVILY on those faceless mooks and much less focused on the magical creatures. Dragons, giants, colossus, magical creatures in general were all but lost in the various wars raged between men and gods in the world. The vast majority of what we're going to fight will be small, medium, or large humanoids with the occasional dire animal. You're not wrong about the creatures in the MM having AC20+ at level 9, but not applicable in this case due to world circumstances. The prospect is to move, trip, trip again if they try to get up, then punch a large number of times while they lay on the ground, giving me attacks against the FF AC which gives me a better chance to hit. I also like the idea of making it a flurry of trip/stun/disarm. That seems neat and would give the new DM something to consider and learn that is within the confines of his prescribed boundaries. On that note, a quarterstaff sounds like it would be a great weapons so that I get the 2 handed bonus to disarms.

Psions and Wilders are out, as is (sadly) psionic fist. This is literally his first time DMing so He's setting the boundaries where he's comfortable until he can understand how the flow of things works from the DM seat. He'll need to get used to everyone wanting to do all sorts of crazy stuff, making split second decisions etc. so I would rather him be comfortable with what he's making those decisions on until he gets in to his own groove.

On the final note, I think I'll go with making it as strength based as I can. I don't think that this DM is going to allow improved natural attack. i know that the description says "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." however, he won't see a feat as a spell or effect. He will rule that this means the wizard spell magic weapon and the Druid spell Magic Fang will both work on a monk's unarmed attacks since Human's don't have natural weapons listed in their racial description whereas a monster will. I can try arguing with him, but he is the DM.

[Eldariel]

On the final note, I think I'll go with making it as strength based as I can. I don't think that this DM is going to allow improved natural attack. i know that the description says "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." however, he won't see a feat as a spell or effect. He will rule that this means the wizard spell magic weapon and the Druid spell Magic Fang will both work on a monk's unarmed attacks since Human's don't have natural weapons listed in their racial description whereas a monster will. I can try arguing with him, but he is the DM.

Couple of things:
- Tripped opponents are not actually flat-footed. Instead, they receive a flat -4 to AC (and you presumably generally get +1 from higher ground as well), which is better in many cases.
- Stunned opponents are kinda like flat-footed on the other hand: they lose their Dex-bonus to AC and take flat -2 to AC. Sadly it's a Fort-save which tends to be a good save on most enemies.
- Regarding Unarmed Strikes, it should be hard to argue that a feat is not an "effect". Wizards of the Coast even officially endorsed Monk using Improved Natural Attack (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a), for what it's worth. Regarding this clause, it states "This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."
- You can actually pick Improved Disarm too, as one of the Monk bonus feats. This omits the need for Int entirely. Hell, you could take Passive Way Combat Expertise on 1st, Improved Trip on 2nd and then switch to default Monk's Improved Disarm on 6 granting you all the feats requiring Int. And you qualify for Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) in the Strength-based build, which seems real nice for your build too. Gives you the option of just punching someone in the face, knocking them flat on their ass.
- You need every thing improving your to hit you can get. Even Weapon Focus is worth considering. Any magic items likewise. Monk really lives off magic, much more so than Barbarians or Fighters (their best way to enhance their natural attacks is a spell, their best way to enhance their AC is a spell, their best way to increase their damage is a spell, etc.), so this is doubly challenging for you as you have none.

[Rhyltran]

so, lots of things to touch on and I'll try to do it as briefly as possible:

Other Players are Halfling Bard, Half-Orc Barbarian focusing on Power Attack, Paladin focusing on support, and a ranger focusing on archery. The DM is new and he is going to be running a game in a world that I created which focuses HEAVILY on those faceless mooks and much less focused on the magical creatures. Dragons, giants, colossus, magical creatures in general were all but lost in the various wars raged between men and gods in the world. The vast majority of what we're going to fight will be small, medium, or large humanoids with the occasional dire animal. You're not wrong about the creatures in the MM having AC20+ at level 9, but not applicable in this case due to world circumstances. The prospect is to move, trip, trip again if they try to get up, then punch a large number of times while they lay on the ground, giving me attacks against the FF AC which gives me a better chance to hit. I also like the idea of making it a flurry of trip/stun/disarm. That seems neat and would give the new DM something to consider and learn that is within the confines of his prescribed boundaries. On that note, a quarterstaff sounds like it would be a great weapons so that I get the 2 handed bonus to disarms.

Psions and Wilders are out, as is (sadly) psionic fist. This is literally his first time DMing so He's setting the boundaries where he's comfortable until he can understand how the flow of things works from the DM seat. He'll need to get used to everyone wanting to do all sorts of crazy stuff, making split second decisions etc. so I would rather him be comfortable with what he's making those decisions on until he gets in to his own groove.

On the final note, I think I'll go with making it as strength based as I can. I don't think that this DM is going to allow improved natural attack. i know that the description says "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." however, he won't see a feat as a spell or effect. He will rule that this means the wizard spell magic weapon and the Druid spell Magic Fang will both work on a monk's unarmed attacks since Human's don't have natural weapons listed in their racial description whereas a monster will. I can try arguing with him, but he is the DM.

When an enemy triggers an AOO by standing up you can't trip them as they're actually still on the ground. The attack of opportunity of them standing up occurs before they've actually succeeded in doing so.

[Particle_Man]

If you can get both improved trip and improve disarm, one trick is to trip the opponent, disarm them with the Aoo when they get up, trip them with the Aoo when they retrieve their weapon, rinse and repeat. ;)

[AnimeTheCat]

When an enemy triggers an AOO by standing up you can't trip them as they're actually still on the ground. The attack of opportunity of them standing up occurs before they've actually succeeded in doing so.

I'm not going to argue rules or anything, but Trip only says that standing up is a move equivalent action and the prone condition says nothing about not being able to be tripped again. It would stand to reason that the attack of opportunity happens mid rise which it quite feasible to swipe the leg again and foil the attempt to stand. Again, not trying to argue rules but I would allow a monk to try to trip again as someone tried to stand up to make sure they remain on the ground.


If you can get both improved trip and improve disarm, one trick is to trip the opponent, disarm them with the Aoo when they get up, trip them with the Aoo when they retrieve their weapon, rinse and repeat. ;)

I would think that the trick would be to Trip them, disarm them with the free attack you get following a trip attempt, then (if you've got the strength for it) grapple them with your AoO as they attempt to get up. Or stunning fist them if you don't have the strength for it.

I am at this point seriously considering half-giant for powerful build since I can get it with SRD content. Possibly throwing in a level of Psychic warrior for a bonus feat and the expansion power for disarm, grapple, trip, and damage. I'll still be getting lots of attacks with flurry and TWF so I can afford the level out of monk for a great increase in ability. I'll be eating a dex penalty... that's a downside... hmm... new problems... I really want to mix flurry with twf but the dex is going to be tough.

[Rhyltran]

I'm not going to argue rules or anything, but Trip only says that standing up is a move equivalent action and the prone condition says nothing about not being able to be tripped again. It would stand to reason that the attack of opportunity happens mid rise which it quite feasible to swipe the leg again and foil the attempt to stand. Again, not trying to argue rules but I would allow a monk to try to trip again as someone tried to stand up to make sure they remain on the ground.



I would think that the trick would be to Trip them, disarm them with the free attack you get following a trip attempt, then (if you've got the strength for it) grapple them with your AoO as they attempt to get up. Or stunning fist them if you don't have the strength for it.

I am at this point seriously considering half-giant for powerful build since I can get it with SRD content. Possibly throwing in a level of Psychic warrior for a bonus feat and the expansion power for disarm, grapple, trip, and damage. I'll still be getting lots of attacks with flurry and TWF so I can afford the level out of monk for a great increase in ability. I'll be eating a dex penalty... that's a downside... hmm... new problems... I really want to mix flurry with twf but the dex is going to be tough.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

Relevant text:

"Any creature that is subject to gravity and somehow holds itself off the ground is subject to trip attacks. Incorporeal creatures can't be tripped -- even by other incorporeal creatures -- because they can't fall down. A prone creature has already fallen down and can't be tripped."

Followed by:

"Standing up from being prone is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. You can crawl 5 feet as a move action without getting up, but doing so provokes attacks of opportunity. SeeRules of the Game: All About Movement for details.

It's possible to attempt a trip attack as an attack of opportunity. Fortunately, you can't be tripped while getting up from prone, at least not through the attack of opportunity you provoke. That because attacks of opportunity are resolved before the actions that provoke them."

This is irrelevant if you'll allow it anyway but I felt the need to post this so the rules are there for anyone who is curious.

[AnimeTheCat]

This is irrelevant if you'll allow it anyway but I felt the need to post this so the rules are there for anyone who is curious.

No problem, that's great info! Thank you for sharing it.

[Rhyltran]

No problem, that's great info! Thank you for sharing it.

No problem. :) And yeah in the end the DM has full power over any rules/suggestions that come up.

[emeraldstreak]

Mind you, prone isn't always a penalty; it can even be beneficial against ranged attacks.

[Mr Adventurer]

Hello all! I've been working with a new DM to try and get their DM legs under them so they're wanting to run a bit of a lower power game as their first try without my help. Some things I know about the DM before I present the build to keep in context when critiquing the build:

1. The DM is only allowing what is available on the SRD so under no circumstances will any other support be allowed than what is listed on the d20SRD website.
2. The DM will be using monster stat blocks as written and NPC classed characters will use the non-elite starting stats, and NPCs with character class levels will be using the elite stat block.
3. PCs are using the 32 point buy
4. No PC is allowed to play a cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard. He wants to make sure he can handle the combat and gameplay basics before magical monkey wrenches get thrown his way.
5. I don't know what level we're starting at but I would think, most likely, level 1 and I don't know the availability of magic items either.

I know the above to be true because those were my recommendations to him for his first full on campaign to keep things simple and manageable.

Now! On to the build. I recently was re-reading the TWF Off-Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) and I thought it would be fun to try and play the ultimate flurry of misses Monk, i.e. using the rules interpretation that you may stack TWF and Flurry of Misses to get MOAR attacks. Since the enemies are going to be lower power I didn't think it would be too terrible of an idea. Here's what I've got.

Race: Human
Stats below will have the score/modifier



Stat
1st
4th
8th
12th
16th
20th


Str
11/+0
12/+1
12/+1
12/+1
13/+1
14/+2


Dex
16/+3
16/+3
17/+3
18/+4
18/+4
18/+4


Con
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0


Int
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1
13/+1


Wis
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3
16/+3


Cha
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0
10/+0





Level 1: Improved Unarmed Attack (Monk 1), Combat Expertise (Human), Improved Initiative (Lvl 1), Improved Grapple (Monk 1)
Level 2: Combat Reflexes (Monk 2)
Level 3: Weapon Finesse (Lvl 3)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes)(lvl 6), Improved Trip (Monk 6)
Level 9: Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 9)
Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 12)
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Lvl 15)
Level 18: Two Weapon Defense (Lvl 18... because what else is there?)


What the above *Should* enable is versatility at early levels against mundane creatures and starting at level 9 the ability to move, trip, then trip again if they try to get up, getting free attacks each time and then pummeling them with a flurry/twf blast against their FF AC. ideally at level 9 my attack rolls should be (without magic items) +8/+8/+8/+3.



Level 9 BAB
+6/+1


Level 9 Flurry
+6/+6/+1


Level 9 Flurry w/ Weapon Focus
+7/+7/+2


flurry, Weap Foc, Dex Mod
+10/+10/+5


TWF, Flurry, Weap Foc, Dex Mod
+8/+8/+8/+3



I think the maths are correct. That could mean potentially 1d10+1 damage 4 times on a successful full flurry. I know those bonuses aren't good but I'm not really trying to brutalize everything, just have fun.

Overall, what do you guys think. Where can I shuffle stats/feats? What feats can I take instead? Viability isn't really an issue because his enemies are likely to have ACs of 15-18 regularly for NPC type enemies and there's a barbarian who's focusing on rage, crush, kill so I'm just taking a theory out for a stroll.

Any amount of damage reduction will ruin your damage.

You can't trip a prone creature.

The extra attack from Improved Trip is hardly 'free' when the original attack could have been a normal attack anyway.

Prone creatures are not flat-footed.

[AnimeTheCat]

Any amount of damage reduction will ruin your damage.

You can't trip a prone creature.

The extra attack from Improved Trip is hardly 'free' when the original attack could have been a normal attack anyway.

Prone creatures are not flat-footed.

thanks for the input. A few other people noted the same things and I adjusted my plans accordingly as well. The extra attack from improved trip is a "free" attack especially because if you're getting it that means that you're opponent is prone and that is a great bonus for everyone on the field. I'm aware that damage reduction is a pitfall of any twf or multi-attack low damage per hit build. That is just a burden I will have to bear now isn't it? :) thanks again for the input though!


Mind you, prone isn't always a penalty; it can even be beneficial against ranged attacks.

While that is true, a prone and disarmed opponent is a much lesser threat on the field. If I can trip with my fist then use the free attack from improved trip to disarm them with a quarterstaff, I'll get a +4 for using a two handed weapon, +1 for higher ground, and then my BAB and strength bonuses on the attack roll. They would take a -4 penalty on the opposed attack roll. If I went with a half-giant and eat the +1 LA for it, I would get an additional +4 bonus thanks to powerful build. that would also help tripping too. Maybe a one level dip in to psychic warrior will be my direction. So much to think about! I think this is going to be a fun build!