Is There Anything Small & Drow-Like?

[Palanan]

Is there any race along the lines of a Small-sized drow? I’m looking for something with a racial reputation for evil, that’s non-goblin, but with drow-like traits such as darkvision, minor spellcasting, severe social issues, etc.

I’m aware of the cannibal halflings from Athas, but that’s not the direction I’d like to go. I’m also aware there are a number of goblin-ish variants (dekanter goblins, tasloi, etc.) but I want to avoid goblins entirely.

I’m open to all official 3.5 and Paizo content, including Dragon material. Is there some other Small race with these characteristics, almost a halfling version of the drow?

[Venger]

I think you're referring to jerren?

if you don't like them for whatever reason you might consider derro

[Gildedragon]

Deep template on a halfling

[Venger]

never heard of that one. where's it from?

[Inevitability]

Wisplings, perhaps?

[Jormengand]

Svirfneblin? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin)

[Gildedragon]

never heard of that one. where's it from?

The deep template is from dragon magazine 3... Something. The one with all the templates

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gildedragon
Deep template on a halfling

Sounds interesting—but where is this from?


Originally Posted by Inevitability
Wisplings, perhaps?

I don’t think I’d ever heard of these. Do they show up anywhere other than FF?


Originally Posted by Jormengand
Svirfneblin?

Not quite what I’m looking for, but I’m certainly open to other Pathfinder options—the stranger and more obscure, the better.

[manyslayer]

Dark creepers? From Fiend Folio (with an Ecology article in Dragon 322).

[Inevitability]

I don’t think I’d ever heard of these. Do they show up anywhere other than FF?

Not as far as I know.

[Crake]

Svirfneblin? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin)

This is about the closest you're gonna get. Darkvision 120ft, and SR11+ class levels, that's about as close to drow as you can get. Not to mention they have dark skin and grey hair (for the women anyway, the men are bald).

[VoxRationis]

What about drow children?

[ShurikVch]

How about the Greenspawn Sneak (from Monster Manual IV)?

[Nupo]

How about a Duergar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-duergar/)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by manyslayer
Dark creepers? From Fiend Folio (with an Ecology article in Dragon 322).

Sadly, I don’t have that issue of Dragon magazine, although I’d love to read that article.

Are the dark creepers in FF essentially the same as the ones from Pathfinder?


Originally Posted by ShurikVch
How about the Greenspawn Sneak (from Monster Manual IV)?

Hmm…a little too reptilian for what I had in mind, but this is still worth a look for its own sake.

[ATHATH]

Kobolds get access to a feat chain (or was it a ritual chain?) that lets them use 1st level Sorcerer spells. You might want to slap the Dark template on one of them if they're not "Underdark-y" enough for you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ATHATH
Kobolds get access to a feat chain (or was it a ritual chain?) that lets them use 1st level Sorcerer spells. You might want to slap the Dark template on one of them if they're not "Underdark-y" enough for you.

Thanks, but kobolds are definitely too reptilian for what I'm thinking of.

Is this dark template the one from Tome of Magic?

[Endarire]

Be a drow with a permanent or at-will reduce person cast on you.

What about kobolds?

[unseenmage]

What about drow children?

Use the Young template (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterAdvancement.html#young-creature) from PF and viola. Small Drow like creature.

[thoroughlyS]

The Deep racial variant (not a template) is in Dragon Magazine 306, page 62. I clarify racial variant because technically it is only supposed to be applied to races from the Player's Handbook (which everyone always overlooks). That being said, there's nothing stopping you from popping this on a Halfling. Highlights include -2 STR, +2 INT, and expeditious retreat, ghost sound, and spider climb each 1/day. LA +1.

[Venger]

The Deep racial variant (not a template) is in Dragon Magazine 306, page 62. I clarify racial variant because technically it is only supposed to be applied to races from the Player's Handbook (which everyone always overlooks). That being said, there's nothing stopping you from popping this on a Halfling. Highlights include -2 STR, +2 INT, and expeditious retreat, ghost sound, and spider climb each 1/day. LA +1.

huh? halflings are from the phb, though.

[thoroughlyS]

...there's nothing stopping you from popping this on a Halfling...huh? halflings are from the phb, though.
I know. I was saying that it can be applied to Halflings. Perhaps it would be clearer if worded as:


"...there is nothing stopping you from applying it to a Halfling."

[Mechalich]

Possibly Wayangs (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/uncommonRaces/wayangs.html)?

Small size, darkvision, three spell-like abilities if you've got charisma 11 or higher. Socially, well: "They readily express their beliefs through ritual scarification and skin bleaching, marking their bodies with raised white dots in ornate spirals and geometric patterns. Shy and elusive, they live in small, interdependent tribes. Wayangs rarely associate with outsiders."

[the_david]

Are you a player or a game master? If you're a player than Wayang comes awfully close, though they seem to be CN. For a GM, I'd say build your own race using the race builder in the Advanced Race Guide.

[noce]

Uldras are usually chaotic and more commonly evil than good.

[Troacctid]

Not quite what I’m looking for, but I’m certainly open to other Pathfinder options—the stranger and more obscure, the better.
Svirfneblin are 3.5.

[Crake]

Svirfneblin are 3.5.

they are also in pathfinder in the advanced race guide as a 24RP race

[ShurikVch]

As Venger said, Derro (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Derro) are probably the best bet there: mad subterranean race with delusion of grandeur who are prone to taking slaves, fanatically loyal to their mages, and worship their own racial deity - isn't it sound suspiciously like a Drow?

The problem with OP request is: most of Small-sized Evil-aligned races are just too primitive to be "Drow-like": Boggles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boggle_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)), Gibberlings (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gibberling), Xvarts (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Xvart)... (Shadovigs are smart, but they're just 9" tall)

Maybe, Meenlocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenlock)?

[Venger]

As Venger said, Derro (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Derro) are probably the best bet there: mad subterranean race with delusion of grandeur who are prone to taking slaves, fanatically loyal to their mages, and worship their own racial deity - isn't it sound suspiciously like a Drow?

The problem with OP request is: most of Small-sized Evil-aligned races are just too primitive to be "Drow-like": Boggles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boggle_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)), Gibberlings (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gibberling), Xvarts (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Xvart)... (Shadovigs are smart, but they're just 9" tall)

Maybe, Meenlocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meenlock)?

Thanks.

Meenlocks aren't a playable race, though.

Every time I play/retire a character with access to miracle, I saw he spends his free time rehabilitating meenlock.

[Thurbane]

Jerren are evil/vile Halflings (BoVD p.13) - mechanically, almost identical to regular Halflings, but with their racial skill bonuses changed to different skills.

Deep Halflings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm#deepHalfling) are regular halflings adapted to life below ground, and pick up some Dwarf-like traits.

[Psyren]

All the best options have been mentioned - Wayangs, Jerren, Svirfneblin, Young Drow - but some weren't responded to.

[Palanan]

I appreciate the variety of suggestions from everyone. Out of everything mentioned so far, the wayangs seem most intriguing, although I may need to adapt them a little.

Trouble is, all I can find on the wayangs is a brief entry in Bestiary 4 and another couple pages in the Advanced Race Guide. There’s hardly any background on the race, nothing to give me a sense of their culture or place in the world. Are they given a more detailed treatment anywhere else?

[gorfnab]

How about Whisper Gnomes (RoS)? You could add the Pathfinder Drowblood Template to it for the additional Drow traits.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
How about Whisper Gnomes (RoS)?

I appreciate the suggestion, but at this point I’ve settled on the wayangs. They’re the closest to what I had in mind.

The only issue is the lack of detail on their culture and general attitudes. Does anyone know if the wayangs are fleshed out in some obscure supplement or other?

[daremetoidareyo]

I know this thread wrapped up, but I just found a stat block in cormyr the tearing of the weave for Dark Creepers on page 44. Small, hooved humanoids with concealment bonuses and light sensitivity...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
I know this thread wrapped up….

Well, not entirely. I’m still hoping there’s more background on the wayangs out there somewhere.


Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo
…I just found a stat block in cormyr the tearing of the weave for Dark Creepers on page 44.

That’s an awesome catch, I never noticed it was there.

That might be the only time dark creepers are mentioned in a 3.5 sourcebook. It’s not even listed in their Wikipedia entry.

[Psyren]

Well, not entirely. I’m still hoping there’s more background on the wayangs out there somewhere.

I suggest asking on the Paizo boards - if there's an obscure Tian Xia book, gazetteer or adventure path out there that talks about them, someone there would likely have read it.

[Thurbane]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Pathfinder Wayang is (loosely) based on the Hyang/Punokawan of Indonesian/Javanese mythology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punokawan

..hope that helps.

When I'm at home with my books, I have a fairly extensive encyclopedia of mythical creatures that might have more info.

I checked The Element Encyclopedia of Magical Creatures, and didn't have much success.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thurbane
When I'm at home with my books, I have a fairly extensive encyclopedia of mythical creatures that might have more info.

Thanks for checking, I appreciate it.

From what I’m seeing, I think the wayangs take their name from wayang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayang), the Indonesian art of shadow-puppet theater. Wayang apparently means “shadow,” and the artwork in the Advanced Race Guide seems very closely based on some of the stylized shadow-puppet designs.

The Pathfinder wayangs, incidentally, are a rare case where the artwork put me off the race rather than drawing me in, because the creature design seemed so peculiar, halfway between comical and creepy. Now that I've seen the original puppet designs, I can understand why the artwork went in that direction, although it still doesn’t really work for me. Fortunately the mechanics are close enough to what I wanted, and I have another shape in mind.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I suggest asking on the Paizo boards - if there's an obscure Tian Xia book, gazetteer or adventure path out there that talks about them, someone there would likely have read it.

In my experience the Playground is usually more helpful than the Paizo boards, but it’s worth a shot.

You mention Tian Xia, and since the wayangs are Indonesian in inspiration, now I’m wondering if there’s a sidebar or something in Distant Shores.

[Psyren]

The Pathfinder wayangs, incidentally, are a rare case where the artwork put me off the race rather than drawing me in, because the creature design seemed so peculiar, halfway between comical and creepy. Now that I've seen the original puppet designs, I can understand why the artwork went in that direction, although it still doesn’t really work for me. Fortunately the mechanics are close enough to what I wanted, and I have another shape in mind.

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the ARG design for them either. I did however manage to find their art from Dragon Empires, which is a lot less "outlandish folk creature" and a lot more "dark goblin." See if you like this better:

http://i.imgur.com/ITocIzU.png

Dragon Empires also has a bit of fluff on them; they slipped into Golarion during the Age of Darkness, the same event that created the Drow and Duergar; apparently the barrier between Golarion and the Plane of Shadow was pretty thin then (for obvious reasons.) They weren't trying to invade or anything, they were just attracted to a world that was swallowed in night. Obviously once the sun came back they weren't too thrilled with the place, but by then it was too late - they're stuck here. They tend more towards Neutral than Evil and are basically perpetual outcasts seeking to be left alone. Lao Shu Po (http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lao%20Shu%20Po) is their patron deity, though it's hinted that she favors the Nezumi (ratfolk) more, and she probably only adopted them because she had to (or for some kind of divine personal gain) more than because she really wanted to look out for them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the ARG design for them either. I did however manage to find their art from Dragon Empires, which is a lot less "outlandish folk creature" and a lot more "dark goblin."

Interesting, thanks. Still not quite what I’m going for, but I do like the tattoos, which were briefly mentioned in the ARG.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Dragon Empires also has a bit of fluff on them….

This is excellent, exactly what I’m looking for. Stranded outcasts, resentful of the daylight world, unwilling stepchildren of an alien goddess…that I can work with.

As it happens, Dragon Empires was one of the very first Pathfinder products I flipped through. I may have to chase down a copy and give it a longer read.



EDIT: Were you looking in the Dragon Empires Gazetteer or the Dragon Empires Primer? The latter apparently presents the wayang as a character race, not sure if you were looking in this one or the other.

.

[Psyren]

I meant the gazetteer but DEP might have more. Not sure what you mean by "present them as a character race" - they're intended to be a PC race so I'd expect that.

There might be more info on them in a module, but as I stated the Paizo boards would be the best place for that kind of info. Try asking in the Golarion section of the forum to get the experts.

[ShurikVch]

Meenlocks aren't a playable race, though.

Every time I play/retire a character with access to miracle, I saw he spends his free time rehabilitating meenlock.Technically, they are playable: LA +4 (3.5 update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/DnD35_Monster_Manual_2.zip))