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AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-07, 02:29 PM
Made to be a unique blend of monks, fighters, rogues, and sorcerers, I finally made a Ninja class for 5e. The main class functions as a baseline martial class. Shinobi is a caster, taking a casting system similar to an Elemental Monk, but utilizes a sorcerer's spell list. For reference, the Shinobi subclass is heavily modeled off of Naruto. The Shadow functions as a martial combat class, getting features like a weaker Sneak Attack and Bloodlust, which you spend to bolster your combat abilities. For reference, the Shadow subclass is modeled off of Fire Emblem. Link to the document down below. Suggestions are always appreciated.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13MpK7tDOLGaC1g1OqbuwZdCKhDBV3MyftcxiaSRwCLo

Specter
2017-04-09, 10:34 AM
- You definitely need to add Acrobatics and Athletics to the skill list, otherwise it's not a ninja.
- The capstone ability is too lame. Any ninja with a fighter dip would already be doing five strikes with two weapons once per short rest, without any exhaustion. At least remove that.
- Cantrips should never have a cost to be used.

JNAProductions
2017-04-09, 12:57 PM
You have two strong saves. Without very good reasons, you shouldn't.

Pentagram Strike just plain sucks. Make it better.

You also have dead levels. Is this class complete?

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-13, 09:55 AM
- You definitely need to add Acrobatics and Athletics to the skill list, otherwise it's not a ninja.
- The capstone ability is too lame. Any ninja with a fighter dip would already be doing five strikes with two weapons once per short rest, without any exhaustion. At least remove that.
- Cantrips should never have a cost to be used.

-No idea how those two slipped my mind. Definitely adding them in now.

-Fair enough. I'll make it function a bit more like haste with a set damage boost per strike. Maybe improve the critical range for those attacks too?

-I only have the associated cost because the main class gives pretty okay martial abilities. I'm hesitant to get rid of it, but I'll definitely consider it.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-13, 09:58 AM
You have two strong saves. Without very good reasons, you shouldn't.

Pentagram Strike just plain sucks. Make it better.

You also have dead levels. Is this class complete?

Dexterity because Ninjas require incredible amounts of finesse and precision, Wisdom because Ninjas have incredible mental and emotional fortitude.

Just made plans to amend it. Probably more of a one-turn haste with a damage increase and bleed effect. Maybe better crit range.

Yep. It only has 3 levels where it's not getting a feature or ASI.

JNAProductions
2017-04-13, 10:01 AM
Right, and Fighters are nimble (Dexterity) and tough (Constitution). Clerics are hardy (Constitution) and wise (Wisdom).

You need a good MECHANICAL reason to have two strong saves.

And you should not have ANY dead levels. The only classes that have "dead" levels are casters, and they get new spells on those levels.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-17, 08:50 AM
Right, and Fighters are nimble (Dexterity) and tough (Constitution). Clerics are hardy (Constitution) and wise (Wisdom).

You need a good MECHANICAL reason to have two strong saves.

And you should not have ANY dead levels. The only classes that have "dead" levels are casters, and they get new spells on those levels.

In that case, Ninjas are nimble (Dexterity) and well-conditioned (Wisdom). Functionally, it makes sense, since Shinobi are Wisdom casters, and Shadows are Dexterity based.

I left the dead levels since each subclass has features that will scale with level progression (Chakra and Sneak Attack). Take those in with Techs and Marks of Shadow, the dead levels would be pretty insignificant. Plus, as a half caster, having some dead levels wouldn't be the worst thing, I don't think.

GalacticAxekick
2017-04-17, 09:12 AM
Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom are the three most ubiquitous saves in 5e. Strength, Intelligence and Charisma are their circumstantial counterparts. Every class gets one save from each list, otherwise they are have too much or too little coverage.

It doesn't matter if the Ninja has nimbleness befitting of a Dex save and mental fortitude befitting of a Wisdom save, because that's a thematic excuse and not a mechanical one. By that reasoning, many classes would have three or four saves.

It doesn't matter if some Ninja use Wisdom as their casting stat or if some Ninja are Dexterity based, because that's unrelated to the balance of saving throws. Some Fighters and Rogues use Intelligence as their casting stat. Some Fighters are Dexterity based. Some Rogues are Strength based.

Unless you have a very strong mechanical reason for your class to have superior saving throws, it needs one from each list. Dexterity and Intelligence is my inclination, since Ninja are deft and cunning.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-17, 10:16 AM
Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom are the three most ubiquitous saves in 5e. Strength, Intelligence and Charisma are their circumstantial counterparts. Every class gets one save from each list, otherwise they are have too much or too little coverage.

It doesn't matter if the Ninja has nimbleness befitting of a Dex save and mental fortitude befitting of a Wisdom save, because that's a thematic excuse and not a mechanical one. By that reasoning, many classes would have three or four saves.

It doesn't matter if some Ninja use Wisdom as their casting stat or if some Ninja are Dexterity based, because that's unrelated to the balance of saving throws. Some Fighters and Rogues use Intelligence as their casting stat. Some Fighters are Dexterity based. Some Rogues are Strength based.

Unless you have a very strong mechanical reason for your class to have superior saving throws, it needs one from each list. Dexterity and Intelligence is my inclination, since Ninja are deft and cunning.

Ooooooh. Now I see what you're saying. I'll probably make it Intelligence then. It still ties in thematically, and it doesn't up their saves too hard.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-04-20, 07:50 PM
ok so a couple things. i'm looking at martial side of things here, its easier to balance imo so you can get it out the way pretty quickly.

Dead levels should never be so early as level 3, and you shouldn't have so many for a non caster. Fill those voids.

Another thing is bloodlust. I wouldn't recommend doing percentages of any kind. I'm pretty sure there's none in the phb at all. If you're going to do percentages, do the easy ones: 1/2 or 1/4. Percentages tend to take more time than intended. Yes i know you may be able to do it quickly, but for majority of people, simple numbers are better, quicker, and better received. Also bloodlust doesn't apply your sneak attack....why? seems like i would never want to use my BA for the hit or dmg bonus for bloodlust if I'm losing out on the one of the main perks of shadow.

So the last thing i'm noticing is your marks and techs. judging from how little and spread then they are I'm guessing you want the ninja to have at least one of each for each tier of play. (1-5; 6-10; 11-15; 16-20). Not sure how I feel about it, one hand its good that you aren't having someone stack those passives like crazy, on the other hand it feels like you don' have much of a choice with certain things to choose from. Its not an issue per say with the techs. You'll eventually grab them all bu 2 so its about what you want/need first. For the Marks of shadow, looking at things for the martial subclass, you're gonna want two in unarmored defense ASAP but also persistent or intense bloodlust. Unless you just don't want to use it (why would you want to lose out on SA damage, even at d4s its EXTRA DAMAGE FOR FREE). I'd rather dip levels into monk or even barbarian so i can wall run and spend my marks on something worthwhile. Not sure what, maybe unarmed strikes or movement, but probably not alot into bloodlust because again, not very good.

The techs are not bad...well not really bad. Its hard to say because its free stuff, and only the katana cost gold (kusarigama needs gold value imo if the katana is going to have one too), but the wording on some of these things should change. Shurikens should function as darts not daggers, unless we are talking about kunai from Naruto, and the bleed damage is cool, however you make such small amounts you might as well use daggers and start chucking them or better yet some darts, at least the daggers will be recoverable. The Kusarigama should read as follows:

...a simple melee weapon with the reach and finesse properties, dealing 1d6 slashing damage. You can forgo one of your attacks made with the Attack action to make a special restraining attack with this weapon. You choose a target (within your melee attack range with this weapon), who has to make a Acrobatics check (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier or Strength modifier your choice) or be restrained.

The katana is fine as is, being a finesse long sword. The other options are good though i feel like the bomb thing should be just one type of bomb, creates a 10 ft radius fog and a blinding light that prevents reactions. Give 2 per day and its about the same only a bit better, felt it was lacking, considering i can grab dual wielder and have kusarigama and katana, ninja shoes and gloves and never feel the need to waste my time with another disposable resource.

Looking back over the class (skipping the shinobi sorry i'll take the time later) i feel like there isn't much hiding going on here, even in the shadow department. Ninja's are stealth masters too so maybe add in a cunning action at level 3 or at least expertise stealth.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-25, 08:13 AM
ok so a couple things. i'm looking at martial side of things here, its easier to balance imo so you can get it out the way pretty quickly.

Dead levels should never be so early as level 3, and you shouldn't have so many for a non caster. Fill those voids.

Another thing is bloodlust. I wouldn't recommend doing percentages of any kind. I'm pretty sure there's none in the phb at all. If you're going to do percentages, do the easy ones: 1/2 or 1/4. Percentages tend to take more time than intended. Yes i know you may be able to do it quickly, but for majority of people, simple numbers are better, quicker, and better received. Also bloodlust doesn't apply your sneak attack....why? seems like i would never want to use my BA for the hit or dmg bonus for bloodlust if I'm losing out on the one of the main perks of shadow.

So the last thing i'm noticing is your marks and techs. judging from how little and spread then they are I'm guessing you want the ninja to have at least one of each for each tier of play. (1-5; 6-10; 11-15; 16-20). Not sure how I feel about it, one hand its good that you aren't having someone stack those passives like crazy, on the other hand it feels like you don' have much of a choice with certain things to choose from. Its not an issue per say with the techs. You'll eventually grab them all bu 2 so its about what you want/need first. For the Marks of shadow, looking at things for the martial subclass, you're gonna want two in unarmored defense ASAP but also persistent or intense bloodlust. Unless you just don't want to use it (why would you want to lose out on SA damage, even at d4s its EXTRA DAMAGE FOR FREE). I'd rather dip levels into monk or even barbarian so i can wall run and spend my marks on something worthwhile. Not sure what, maybe unarmed strikes or movement, but probably not alot into bloodlust because again, not very good.

The techs are not bad...well not really bad. Its hard to say because its free stuff, and only the katana cost gold (kusarigama needs gold value imo if the katana is going to have one too), but the wording on some of these things should change. Shurikens should function as darts not daggers, unless we are talking about kunai from Naruto, and the bleed damage is cool, however you make such small amounts you might as well use daggers and start chucking them or better yet some darts, at least the daggers will be recoverable. The Kusarigama should read as follows:

...a simple melee weapon with the reach and finesse properties, dealing 1d6 slashing damage. You can forgo one of your attacks made with the Attack action to make a special restraining attack with this weapon. You choose a target (within your melee attack range with this weapon), who has to make a Acrobatics check (DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + Dexterity modifier or Strength modifier your choice) or be restrained.

The katana is fine as is, being a finesse long sword. The other options are good though i feel like the bomb thing should be just one type of bomb, creates a 10 ft radius fog and a blinding light that prevents reactions. Give 2 per day and its about the same only a bit better, felt it was lacking, considering i can grab dual wielder and have kusarigama and katana, ninja shoes and gloves and never feel the need to waste my time with another disposable resource.

Looking back over the class (skipping the shinobi sorry i'll take the time later) i feel like there isn't much hiding going on here, even in the shadow department. Ninja's are stealth masters too so maybe add in a cunning action at level 3 or at least expertise stealth.

I'll try to find something for those voids. Maybe some stealth related boosts? Idk

I'll switch around the percentages for Bloodlust. I made it so it didn't apply to Sneak Attack damage because by level 20 with Astra, you deal 10D4 + Weapon (let's say a 2-handed Katana for the sake of argument), so 1D10 + Modifier (which should be around +5). On average, that attack is already 36.5 damage per round. Multiply that by 2.5, and you're dealing an average of 91.5 damage with Astra.

I do recognize that the Marks of Shadow can be kinda circumnavigated by multiclassing, but I think that's okay for 1 reason. By multiclassing for more than 1 level, you lose out on the capstone, and ASI, and your last Mark of Shadow. For instance, Monks get their fancy wallrun and such at Level 9. So a multiclass that far, you lose out on Astra, your 3rd attack, your last Tech, and 2 MoS. So a multiclass can get around some of it, but it doesn't necessarily hurt the class as a whole too much.

I'll slap the Kusarigama with a cost here pretty soon. Not really sure. Maybe a solid 50 Gp? And I messed up the wording for Shuriken. You can recover half of the ones you use after an encounter. That's my bad. I intend for them to be mildly better than a dagger for ranged combat (bleed damage), but have a slight penalty for use (loss of half).

Also, I messed up. I need to make the Kusarigama 2 handed. My bad there. I also gave 2 types of bombs, so you have both a stealth option, and a combat option. Getting one of each at the start of the day means you aren't over-prepared by virtue of having the feature.

I understand not wanting to go over the Shinobi right now (that thing was a nightmare to even make), and I'll add in the stealth features and slight amendments.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-04-25, 10:41 PM
I'll try to find something for those voids. Maybe some stealth related boosts? Idk

I'll switch around the percentages for Bloodlust. I made it so it didn't apply to Sneak Attack damage because by level 20 with Astra, you deal 10D4 + Weapon (let's say a 2-handed Katana for the sake of argument), so 1D10 + Modifier (which should be around +5). On average, that attack is already 36.5 damage per round. Multiply that by 2.5, and you're dealing an average of 91.5 damage with Astra.

I do recognize that the Marks of Shadow can be kinda circumnavigated by multiclassing, but I think that's okay for 1 reason. By multiclassing for more than 1 level, you lose out on the capstone, and ASI, and your last Mark of Shadow. For instance, Monks get their fancy wallrun and such at Level 9. So a multiclass that far, you lose out on Astra, your 3rd attack, your last Tech, and 2 MoS. So a multiclass can get around some of it, but it doesn't necessarily hurt the class as a whole too much.

I'll slap the Kusarigama with a cost here pretty soon. Not really sure. Maybe a solid 50 Gp? And I messed up the wording for Shuriken. You can recover half of the ones you use after an encounter. That's my bad. I intend for them to be mildly better than a dagger for ranged combat (bleed damage), but have a slight penalty for use (loss of half).

Also, I messed up. I need to make the Kusarigama 2 handed. My bad there. I also gave 2 types of bombs, so you have both a stealth option, and a combat option. Getting one of each at the start of the day means you aren't over-prepared by virtue of having the feature.

I understand not wanting to go over the Shinobi right now (that thing was a nightmare to even make), and I'll add in the stealth features and slight amendments.

Good. now The capstone damage can be that high, hell there are plenty of ways to get that damage befoe level 20. Let this ninja have something nice. I didn't even mention that i thought it was weird that a ninja class gets bloodlust, but thats neither here nor there since its just a name and you could change it to fit your ninja theme. I understand its more of a naruto style so bloodlust would be more with that anyway. the other fixes you mention sound like they should be good. For level level 16 id suggest branching out of the stealth. Shade is good and cunning action is probably exactly what you needed here. Maybe shadow jumping as part of movement. Oh and this should be a chose 3 skills class probably. I see you've changed the shinobi (or at least added the spells and such) give me a minute to look at these.


Edit: now that im looking at bloodlust again, i noticed hat astra and ngiht sky can stack. thats a big no-no. Make sure those multiplier are only for the next attack made this turn instead of just next attack. otherwise you can just hold the charges forever and one shot anything.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-26, 07:05 AM
Good. now The capstone damage can be that high, hell there are plenty of ways to get that damage befoe level 20. Let this ninja have something nice. I didn't even mention that i thought it was weird that a ninja class gets bloodlust, but thats neither here nor there since its just a name and you could change it to fit your ninja theme. I understand its more of a naruto style so bloodlust would be more with that anyway. the other fixes you mention sound like they should be good. For level level 16 id suggest branching out of the stealth. Shade is good and cunning action is probably exactly what you needed here. Maybe shadow jumping as part of movement. Oh and this should be a chose 3 skills class probably. I see you've changed the shinobi (or at least added the spells and such) give me a minute to look at these.


Edit: now that im looking at bloodlust again, i noticed hat astra and ngiht sky can stack. thats a big no-no. Make sure those multiplier are only for the next attack made this turn instead of just next attack. otherwise you can just hold the charges forever and one shot anything.

I actually modeled Bloodlust off of Fire Emblem Heroes' special trigger system. I didn't have a better name for it, and bloodlust seemed to fit since it's charged by hitting and getting hit. I suppose it isn't the worst to have it doing that high of damage.

When you say Shadow jumping, do you mean the Shadow Monk feature? Because I had the thought, your movement speed doubled during night/while in shadow.

Nothing too much for now for the Shinobi. Changed the wording for a few things, got rid of cantrips (no other half-caster gets them), and rescaled some of the Combined Nature Releases.

Actually, I already solved for the Astra/Night Sky stacking problem. You'll never have enough Bloodlust to pull off both for one turn. I will include that you can't stack Astra and Night Sky just to be safe.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-04-28, 09:58 PM
I actually modeled Bloodlust off of Fire Emblem Heroes' special trigger system. I didn't have a better name for it, and bloodlust seemed to fit since it's charged by hitting and getting hit. I suppose it isn't the worst to have it doing that high of damage.

When you say Shadow jumping, do you mean the Shadow Monk feature? Because I had the thought, your movement speed doubled during night/while in shadow.

Nothing too much for now for the Shinobi. Changed the wording for a few things, got rid of cantrips (no other half-caster gets them), and rescaled some of the Combined Nature Releases.

Actually, I already solved for the Astra/Night Sky stacking problem. You'll never have enough Bloodlust to pull off both for one turn. I will include that you can't stack Astra and Night Sky just to be safe.

Well what I meant was that there's no wording currently that says that the bonus lasts only for next attack that turn. Put that in and is fine, otherwise i can just not attack until i grab more charges of bloodlust (from being hit by say my cleric buddy who happens to heal me then hit me again) until i can stack more multipliers then the next guy that looks at me funny gets stabbed for all the hit points.

Shadow jump like the monk yes. Seems very natural to a ninja. increased movement speed is ok but not nearly as good, also you already get alot of movement speed from being unarmored.

Rename bloodlust to.....killing spree. or something. ninja's should want to be clean not messy with the blood and the gore and the viscera.

AgentMaineSIGMA
2017-04-28, 11:55 PM
Well what I meant was that there's no wording currently that says that the bonus lasts only for next attack that turn. Put that in and is fine, otherwise i can just not attack until i grab more charges of bloodlust (from being hit by say my cleric buddy who happens to heal me then hit me again) until i can stack more multipliers then the next guy that looks at me funny gets stabbed for all the hit points.

Shadow jump like the monk yes. Seems very natural to a ninja. increased movement speed is ok but not nearly as good, also you already get alot of movement speed from being unarmored.

Rename bloodlust to.....killing spree. or something. ninja's should want to be clean not messy with the blood and the gore and the viscera.

Fair enough. I'll add that it can't be stacked. Never hurts to have a safety.

I'm not sure, since Shadow Monks get their Shadow Jump so much earlier. I'm thinking doing something like the feat Skulker, but improved. Maybe Skulker and a shadow jump type thing?

I'll probably just rename it to Precision. It's more Ninja like that way.

Charlie025
2019-03-07, 12:17 AM
Oi, could you reup the PDF?