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GryffonDurime
2007-07-28, 12:46 PM
I am about to make a claim. It may be agreed with, it may be disagreed with, but on the whole I think it to be fairly accurate:

The Warlock is the Dungeons and Dragons equivalent of a superhero. Think about it: what other character class flys around, tossing energy blasts and things of that ilk all through the day and night? The Wizard conserves his energies for only tasks that require or benefit from the application thereof. Even the Sorcerer has a limit that makes him think twice about injudicious application of magic. Only the Warlock eats, sleeps, and breathes arcane energy.

In addition, I'd like to claim that the Warlock is by far one of the most delightfully splashy classes for characters who want to be able to do some absolutely amazing things simply out of sheer awsomeness, in the style of Wuxia or Welsh heroes. Additionally, with nothing more than a change of flavor, almost any kind of empowered character can be created within a reasonable level of stretching. Par example:

Spiderman - The Webslinger himself could be reasonably modeled on a high-Strength Warlock. Between eternal Spiderclimb (for obvious reasons), Dark One's Own Luck to Reflex Saves and Entropic Warding (to simulate spider-senses), you've got most of the basics already.

Gandalf - Quoi? Gandalf Grayhame, a Maia, cast as a lowly Warlock? Between a simple change from Eldritch Blast to "Ray of Light", a few choice invocations from Complete Mage (Hammer Blast and Call of the Beast among them), and Hideous Blow (to make the old man a slightly more fearsome swordsman), you can create a fairly effective Gandalf. Fellow Fellowship member Legolas might also have a level, if only to pick up the CMage invocation Witchwood Steps.

Random Jedi #32 - If you want to manipulate the Force, you might be a Warlock. While a bit higher level than some others to effectively demonstrate, Repulsive Blast is Force Push incarnate, especially combined with an appropriate shape essence. Beguiling Influence and Charm make an effective Jedi Mind Trick. And did someone say Leaps and Bounds for springing into battle? Throw in an Eldritch Glaive for good measure, and you have a passable Jedi.

Now, I know that Dungeons and Dragons isn't really meant to play host to the first or third example, but even still, the shear scope of the potential inherent to the Warlock's modular, customizable design displays how you can create a mechanically established character with a deep number of possible choices even when dealing with only a single class.

So, for those of you out there who love the warlock, let's see what you can come up with. Superman is obviously waiting there, looking for someone to give him DR45/Kryptonite. Sabriel the Abhorsen is entirely possible, save perhaps for Astarael--unless you count an Utterdark Doom. Warlocks can even pretend to be a little Japanese school girl who fights for love and justice, if only you change the words Eldritch Blast to a season-appropriate attack.

I think that is by far what makes the Warlock fun--barring a small change in flavor that only the most inflexible DM would refuse, a Warlock can be almost anything.

Maltrich
2007-07-28, 01:38 PM
Random Jedi #32 - If you want to manipulate the Force, you might be a Warlock. While a bit higher level than some others to effectively demonstrate, Repulsive Blast is Force Push incarnate, especially combined with an appropriate shape essence. Beguiling Influence and Charm make an effective Jedi Mind Trick. And did someone say Leaps and Bounds for springing into battle? Throw in an Eldritch Glaive for good measure, and you have a passable Jedi.


Three words: brilliant energy longsword.

de-trick
2007-07-28, 01:43 PM
Three words: brilliant energy longsword.

No bastard sword because can use 2 handed or 1 handed

Morty
2007-07-28, 01:43 PM
Gandalf - Quoi? Gandalf Grayhame, a Maia, cast as a lowly Warlock? Between a simple change from Eldritch Blast to "Ray of Light", a few choice invocations from Complete Mage (Hammer Blast and Call of the Beast among them), and Hideous Blow (to make the old man a slightly more fearsome swordsman), you can create a fairly effective Gandalf. Fellow Fellowship member Legolas might also have a level, if only to pick up the CMage invocation Witchwood Steps.


That doesn't fit Gandalf any more than Wizard. In D&D, power of arcane spellcaster or semi-spellcaster is measured by the amount of people he can kill during the day. In LoTR, it's far more subtle.


No bastard sword because can use 2 handed or 1 handed

You can use longsword two handed.

de-trick
2007-07-28, 02:00 PM
learn something new everyday

Matthew
2007-07-28, 03:55 PM
All One Handed Weapons (as opposed to Light Weapons) can be used Two Handed. It is part of what makes such things as Dwarven War Axes and Bastard Swords utterly pointless outside of very specific scenarios (Such as: Racial Familiarity, Exotic Weapon Master and so on)

GryffonDurime
2007-07-28, 04:02 PM
Fascinating as this conversation is, and with no intended rudeness or intention to insult...

...so incredibly not the point of the thread.

...So how 'bout 'them Warlocks? Ain't they a kick?

InaVegt
2007-07-28, 04:19 PM
I like the warlock as a tool of war, that first level warlock is a more effective archer than that first level ranger, let me compare:

Touch attack vs 1 point of bab
Free shots vs max range (no army has unlimited arrows, as such even rangers can't shoot whenever they think they see an enemy)

So, let's say we have as an opponent a 1st level warrior orc, the ranger has a longbow and fav'd enemy (orc), the orc has dex 12 and is wearing chainmail, he stands 220 feet away.

Let's assume both our characters have dex 14.

The warlock uses eldritch spear and as such has enough range, he has to hit an AC of 11, meaning he needs a 9 or better to hit (60% change) meanwhile he deals an average of 3.5 damage per non critical hit. (0.6×3.5=2.1 damage average)

The ranger shoots with his longbow, suffering a -3 penalty for range, meanwhile he has to hit an AC of 15. This makes the total needed to hit 15 or better (30% chance) meanwhile he deals an average damage of 5.5 per non critical hit (0.3×5.5=1.65 damage average)

lord_khaine
2007-07-28, 05:52 PM
the problem with statistics are that people can just about use them to prove anything they want.

in this case you have just proven that at that range and with those chars the warlock is more effective, but really, that ranger isnt focused on archery with a lowly dex of 14, and could benefit from both rapid shot and a mightby bow.

Starsinger
2007-07-28, 06:05 PM
Three words: brilliant energy longsword.

B.E. Weapons can't affect constructs, Jedi are notorious for whoopin droid face with their lightsabers, other than that...

As for the OP, Bravo! I like it when people use D&D creatively... also the Warlock as Magical Girl inspires me.. my next character is so a magical girl, just gotta reflavor.. Eldritch Blast is gonna be something sickeningly sweet like, "Pink Sugar Heart Ache"... why does that sound so familiar?

InaVegt
2007-07-28, 06:19 PM
the problem with statistics are that people can just about use them to prove anything they want.

in this case you have just proven that at that range and with those chars the warlock is more effective, but really, that ranger isnt focused on archery with a lowly dex of 14, and could benefit from both rapid shot and a mightby bow.

If we wanted to focus that ranger on archery, the warlock must the same.

So, with 18 dex we have the following: a +0.1×damage average (that is, 2.45 for the warlock, 2.2 for the range), now the ranger is closer but still less effective. It becomes mighty expensive for en army to issue composite longbows to every archer in the army (while the warlock doesn't even need a bow), not to mention stats above 15 are rare (10 out of 36 people have one, that's 27.8%, and that's in a random stat, so 10 out of 216 would have a dex of 16 or above, that's 4.6%, all assuming 3d6 down the line, as people are made (you just select the better ones for your PCs))

Taking rapid shot is quite a waste if you're planning on progressing above first level (and can only be done by humans at that level)

AslanCross
2007-07-28, 06:20 PM
I do think the comparison to a superhero is quite accurate--you have a narrow selection of powers that you can use ad nauseum. Of course you wouldn't be insanely tough like most superheroes are, but it's still a good comparison.

Also, magical girl ftw.

Tengu
2007-07-28, 06:36 PM
It becomes mighty expensive for en army to issue composite longbows to every archer in the army (while the warlock doesn't even need a bow), not to mention stats above 15 are rare

1. Archers in an army would probably be warriors or fighters, not rangers.
2. Somehow, the idea of how is it possible to create an army of warlocks eludes me. Unless in a very unusual setting.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-28, 06:38 PM
1. Archers in an army would probably be warriors or fighters, not rangers.
2. Somehow, the idea of how is it possible to create an army of warlocks eludes me. Unless in a very unusual setting.

Why shouldn't there be? Nations train rangers, scouts, and fighters in their armies; why not warlocks?

Citizen Joe
2007-07-28, 06:42 PM
2. Somehow, the idea of how is it possible to create an army of warlocks eludes me. Unless in a very unusual setting.
Bronze Citadel run by an Efreeti Lord. All his troops sign a pact with him and thus become warlocks. Wish 3/day kinda assures loyalty.

Tengu
2007-07-28, 06:43 PM
Why shouldn't there be? Nations train rangers, scouts, and fighters in their armies; why not warlocks?

Because martial training takes usually much less time and resources than a magical one? I could see members of spellcasting classes as valuable assets on the battlefield, but they'd be rather rare - certainly not regular troopers.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a warlock need to have some sort of a pact with an evil or chaotic outsider in order to use his/her power? That does not speak exactly "soldier" to me.


Bronze Citadel run by an Efreeti Lord. All his troops sign a pact with him and thus become warlocks. Wish 3/day kinda assures loyalty.

That's what I call "unusual". Makes sense though.

PaladinFreak
2007-07-28, 06:44 PM
You're right. Warlocks just plain rock. I'm not saying they are overpowered, as their abilities are weak enough on their own that you generally wouldn't want them if you had limited spells per day, but, with the infinite spells per day, I think they are worth it.

Plus they are really cool.

Khantalas
2007-07-28, 06:46 PM
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a warlock need to have some sort of a pact with an evil or chaotic outsider in order to use his/her power? That does not speak exactly "soldier" to me.

Or a fey. Or a celestial. Or a slaad. Wait, slaadi are already chaotic outsiders. But you get the idea.

Then again, I am having a hard time picturing a benevolent fey screaming "alright, you maggots!" like R. Lee Ermey, but it would be fun watching a training regiment overseen by a sylph.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-28, 06:54 PM
The chaotic end of warlocks don't really lend themselves to an organized force. So you're looking at a mostly lawful evil/neutral evil group. Its really just a matter of putting an outsider in the upper echelon of the particular country. I don't think Eldritch Blast has range bands though... just goes out so far and stops. That means archers have better range.

Starsinger
2007-07-28, 06:57 PM
Elves are by their nature Chaotic unless otherwise noted, yet Elves have armies... why can't fey/fiends?

Citizen Joe
2007-07-28, 07:12 PM
I said organized force. Chaos can have armies, they just aren't organized.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-28, 07:17 PM
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a warlock need to have some sort of a pact with an evil or chaotic outsider in order to use his/her power? That does not speak exactly "soldier" to me.

A Warlock is no more beholden to the fiends/outsiders that gave his ancestors power than a sorcerer is beholden to their dragon blood. A long time ago fiends would make Warlocks, but by far more Warlocks are simply born with their power, rather than being given it.

I think the issue with creating an army of Warlocks is the same as creating an army of sorcerers: Most people just don't have the potential to become either class. It's assumed that most adventurers have the potential if they say they do, it's as easy as picking up another class level, but for normal people it might be imposssible.

Certainly, you could do as the Jedi apparently do: Look for and train the fraction of people with the Warlock potential as elite warriors, but you're still going to need footsoldiers/Storm/Clonetroopers as well.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-28, 07:21 PM
A Warlock is no more beholden to the fiends/outsiders that gave his ancestors power than a sorcerer is beholden to their dragon blood. A long time ago fiends would make Warlocks, but by far more Warlocks are simply born with their power, rather than being given it.


I could be wrong, since I don't have (or want) that specific book, but I thought the specific warlock had to sign a pact with said outsider/fey/whatever.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-28, 07:24 PM
No, they do not.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-28, 07:48 PM
I don't think Eldritch Blast has range bands though... just goes out so far and stops. That means archers have better range.

Initially, Eldritch Blast is limited to a range of 60'. This is respectable for most ranged weapons but not fantastic.

1st level Warlocks can pick up the Eldritch Spear Invocation, however, which increases their range to a very respectable 250'. To hit at that range an archer would have to be hitting their second or worse range band, and applying a -4 or greater penalty to attack. In addition, the target of an archers attack has to penetrate the full AC with armor and dodge bonuses. Whereas a Warlock's Eldritch Blast is generally a ranged touch attack, and completely bypasses armor, shields, and natural armor.

So yes, while ranged attacks have a chance of striking it's not nearly as good of a chance, and it's difficult to maintain Line of Sight at those higher ranges anyway. It's a trade off.

The real penalty Warlock experience is not gaining iterative attacks. Since Eldritch Blast is a standard action they don't get the benefit that others do when their BAB reaches 6 or higher. On the other hand, it keeps them highly mobile, as you can expect a warlock to have a free move action in any given round.

slexlollar89
2007-07-28, 08:50 PM
check this out... i made a warforged warlock that had his left arm turned into a wand receptacle (the wands could be used up and a new one could be put in) and called him Mega Man... the only downside was he only had one hand!

Morty
2007-07-29, 03:44 AM
The problem with creating an army, or part of the army, from warlocks is that you aren't trained as warlock like you'd be trained as fighter, ranger or wizard, you simply are warlock and then you decide if you embrace your heritage -by taking levels in the class- or screw this and do something else -by not taking any levels. The fact that Warlocks need to be chaotic don't help much either. Not to mention that enlisting people with fiendish or otherwise alien heritage into army wouldn't be good for sovereign's PR.

The Demented One
2007-07-29, 03:51 AM
As for the OP, Bravo! I like it when people use D&D creatively... also the Warlock as Magical Girl inspires me.. my next character is so a magical girl, just gotta reflavor.. Eldritch Blast is gonna be something sickeningly sweet like, "Pink Sugar Heart Ache"... why does that sound so familiar?
I think that was one of Sailor Minimoon's attacks.

Wait! Manliness...fading away...NOOO!

ForzaFiori
2007-07-29, 03:54 AM
The problem with creating an army, or part of the army, from warlocks is that you aren't trained as warlock like you'd be trained as fighter, ranger or wizard, you simply are warlock and then you decide if you embrace your heritage -by taking levels in the class- or screw this and do something else -by not taking any levels. The fact that Warlocks need to be chaotic don't help much either. Not to mention that enlisting people with fiendish or otherwise alien heritage into army wouldn't be good for sovereign's PR.

Chaotic OR EVIL.

u could have an army of Lawful Evil warlocks.

Morty
2007-07-29, 03:56 AM
Chaotic OR EVIL.

u could have an army of Lawful Evil warlocks.

The point remains. People who have to be either chaotic -and therefore likely to have troubles with obeying orders- or evil -therefore likely to cause other troubles- aren't good material for army.

Starsinger
2007-07-29, 04:03 AM
I think that was one of Sailor Minimoon's attacks.

Wait! Manliness...fading away...NOOO!

Yeah! That's it! Chibi-Usa! Thanks The Demented One!

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-07-29, 04:06 AM
I said organized force. Chaos can have armies, they just aren't organized.

Of course chaotic armies are organised, just looser then lawful armies.
Elves are a fine example of this, they don't walk in phalanxes, but they use more hit and run tactics. giving induvidual squads a target and giving them freedom on how to take them out.
Orcs are another, their structure is basicly the biggest and strongest orc is the boss, it is organised, but not very tight.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-29, 04:08 AM
The chaotic end of warlocks don't really lend themselves to an organized force. So you're looking at a mostly lawful evil/neutral evil group.


I said organized force. Chaos can have armies, they just aren't organized.

Do you have any idea of how armies actually work? They consistently take people that are very "chaotic", and turn them into a disciplined unit of an organized army. Read about how military conditioning works before saying that free-spirited individuals can't form an organized army, because that simply isn't rue. Heck, many of the most celebrated soldiers and officers in history were very "chaotic" people. Since it's late, I'll only give the example of the American WW2 commander General Patton, and give further examples after I get some sleep.

Captain van der Decken
2007-07-29, 04:14 AM
There's no reason why evil people aren't good army material. Look at hobgoblins.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-29, 04:25 AM
Since it's late, I'll only give the example of the American WW2 commander General Patton, and give further examples after I get some sleep.

Yeah, I think he was Chaotic Awesome.

IMO, Chaotic people follow their own rules and believe in the right of the individual before the group. To use a modern example, Libertarians are very Chaotic aligned in that they always stress individual freedom before most any other principle. This does not mean they are a disorganized or 'chaotic' force in any way. They are a political party more or less as organized as any other.

Chaotics follow laws and codes at times but tend to dislike them nonetheless. They take little comfort in hierarchy, bueracracy, or conformity in general. But to insist that they never follow rules or organize themselves for efficient defense is as silly as insisting that lawful people never break laws and always obey authority. Lawful/Chaotic is more indicative of a personal perspective, I think, than an unbreakable part of who you are like Good/Evil is sometimes.

lord_khaine
2007-07-29, 05:50 AM
So, with 18 dex we have the following: a +0.1×damage average (that is, 2.45 for the warlock, 2.2 for the range), now the ranger is closer but still less effective. It becomes mighty expensive for en army to issue composite longbows to every archer in the army (while the warlock doesn't even need a bow), not to mention stats above 15 are rare (10 out of 36 people have one, that's 27.8%, and that's in a random stat, so 10 out of 216 would have a dex of 16 or above, that's 4.6%, all assuming 3d6 down the line, as people are made (you just select the better ones for your PCs))

Taking rapid shot is quite a waste if you're planning on progressing above first level (and can only be done by humans at that level)


this still doesnt really say anything about the effectivity of archers and warlocks.
for a start, just in your model, you dont really count in those situations where the range is fx 270 feet, the ranger will still do the same damage, where on the other hand the warlocks will drop to 0.

or more important, a situation where the archer actualy has archery feats, fx either by giving him rapid shot, wich is not quite a waste, since he isnt forced to take the archery path with his ranger abilities.
or the other option where we pick a humen fighter and feat him for archery.
assuming 16 dex, point blank shot, rapid shot and far shot, as well as a +1 mighty longbow.
then at at target within 160 feet he will have 2 attacks at +2 to hit, doing
5.5 per average hit, 40% of the time, resulting in 4.4 average damage.

but the conclusion here isnt who is the better archer, but that you cant deside who actualy are that, with such a simple model, since its very easy to pick a situation that favors your favorite.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-07-29, 06:59 AM
But the idea of a pitched battle, which, in most D&D settings, is the most likely one (I admit that warlocks would have a fairly bad time occupying a city, though - dragonfire adepts, who are pretty much the same, would fare better there) does favour warlocks - they can start lobbing long range eldritch blasts from ranges that the human archers can't really hit at, and keep pulling back to maintain that range.

lord_khaine
2007-07-29, 09:23 AM
and in that case the archers could start lobbing arrows at the warlocks at a range where they could not reach, and keep pulling back to mantain that range.

LordVader
2007-07-29, 09:27 AM
For the archer vs warlock, though, in any real battle, you'd have far more archers then warlocks, as warlocks would be much rarer. Also, the warlocks should run out of spells before the archers run out of arrows. Lastly, don't Warlocks use a d4 hit die, where rangers use a d8? The archers are going to be tougher.

SITB
2007-07-29, 10:01 AM
Warlocks never run out of energy juice magic... thingy. And they have a d6 for a hit die.

You are confusing them with wizards.

MrNexx
2007-07-29, 11:48 AM
For the archer vs warlock, though, in any real battle, you'd have far more archers then warlocks, as warlocks would be much rarer. Also, the warlocks should run out of spells before the archers run out of arrows. Lastly, don't Warlocks use a d4 hit die, where rangers use a d8? The archers are going to be tougher.

You may be thinking of wizards. However, a Warlock who wanted to go against Archers would do well to have the Invocations of Eldritch Spear (long range), Devil's Sight (see in magical darkness), and Darkness (make magical darkness, for 100% concealment). Entropic Warding is also very useful, since even if they hit through the darkness, they have to make a second % to void having entropy flick it away. Since they'll have enough by 6th level to take all of them (though they likely shouldn't; at 6th level they also get Lesser Invocations, and might want Fell Flight or Walk Unseen... or even the Animate dead one, allowing them to make decoys).

Aquillion
2007-07-29, 12:02 PM
You may be thinking of wizards. However, a Warlock who wanted to go against Archers would do well to have the Invocations of Eldritch Spear (long range), Devil's Sight (see in magical darkness), and Darkness (make magical darkness, for 100% concealment).Warlock Darkness isn't true darkness, is it? It's like the wizard spell... it creates an "area of shadowy illumination", I thought.

MrNexx
2007-07-29, 12:46 PM
Warlock Darkness isn't true darkness, is it? It's like the wizard spell... it creates an "area of shadowy illumination", I thought.

So it is. They really nerfed that spell in 3e.

EDIT: In that case, I would suggest you go with Eldritch Spear, Entropic Warding, and Summon Swarm (bats would be best). Nothing says "Leave me alone" like tons of bats in the air.

Captain van der Decken
2007-07-29, 12:54 PM
and in that case the archers could start lobbing arrows at the warlocks at a range where they could not reach, and keep pulling back to mantain that range.

But they wouldn't be able to, becuase the Warlocks (using Eldritch Spear, at any rate) have a far greater range.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-29, 01:03 PM
250 ft != 3300 ft. Hell, without enhancement, 250 ft != 1100 ft.

At maximum range, a warlock with eldritch spear has the same range as a sling, or 2 range increments on a heavy crossbow. And nothing compared to a +1 composite longbow of distance with far shot.

Hunter Noventa
2007-07-29, 01:04 PM
For all of you talking about alignments, There is no "Ex-Warlocks" section in the book, so in theory one only has to be Chaotic or Evil to take the first level of warlock, no reason the alignment couldn't shift later on.

Tengu
2007-07-29, 02:33 PM
It might not be RAW, but I think it's logical that you cannot take any more levels in warlock if you're not chaotic or evil. You do not lose any class abilities though, and when you switch back to a correct alignment you can take those levels again.

Captain van der Decken
2007-07-29, 03:12 PM
250 ft != 3300 ft. Hell, without enhancement, 250 ft != 1100 ft.

At maximum range, a warlock with eldritch spear has the same range as a sling, or 2 range increments on a heavy crossbow. And nothing compared to a +1 composite longbow of distance with far shot.

Supplying all your army's archers with +1 composite longbows of distance would be rather expensive. Supplying all your army's archers with composite long bows would be rather expensive, for that matter. If I remember correctly, a level 1 fighter has an average of 120 gold peices. A composite longbow is 100 of that.

Edit: Oh, my bad - they won't be able to do it while remaining effective. They can try, but at level 1 the penalty is crippling.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-29, 03:27 PM
That alignment thing was part of the reason I figured the warlock had to make a pact with the outsider/fey/whatever. So, breach the pact and all your stuff poofs.

But that doesn't seem to be the way it works... so once again I cram Warlock back into the do not play file.

lord_khaine
2007-07-29, 04:17 PM
i dont have the book with me atm, but doesnt eldrich spear just say a range of 250 feet?

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-29, 04:20 PM
250 ft != 3300 ft. Hell, without enhancement, 250 ft != 1100 ft.

At maximum range, a warlock with eldritch spear has the same range as a sling, or 2 range increments on a heavy crossbow. And nothing compared to a +1 composite longbow of distance with far shot.

Wow. Is that how far the rules let you shoot an arrow?? That's a little excessive, don't you think? I'd like to see anyone accurately hit anything with a bow at 5/8th of a mile away.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-29, 04:29 PM
You do take a -20 to hit, which means you can't hit anything, literally, without incredible luck or skill.

I mean, this is where a 20'th level fighter with average dex has a 55-45 chance of hitting a naked commoner.

And that's with a fighter who specializes in distance fighting (far shot) and gets a weapon of distance, which is a magical effect.


Distant Shot [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Spot 20 ranks.

Benefit
You may throw or fire a ranged weapon at any target within line of sight, with no penalty for range.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-29, 04:58 PM
You do take a -20 to hit, which means you can't hit anything, literally, without incredible luck or skill.

I mean, this is where a 20'th level fighter with average dex has a 55-45 chance of hitting a naked commoner.

And that's with a fighter who specializes in distance fighting (far shot) and gets a weapon of distance, which is a magical effect.

I thought of that too, but with a single cast of true strike, that ranged penalty is negated and makes the shot as easy as if the target was 30 feet away. It just seems kinda nuts to me, seeing as how the rules are letting you shoot much, much, much farther than they generally let you see. Try telling four people apart when they are standing 11 football fields away and wearing the same colors, for example.

A bow at that distance is more like an artillery piece anyway, and you'd be using them enmasse to blanket an area, rather than target a specific person. I just it's just a concession to heroic fantasy, but still ! :smallwink:

Aquillion
2007-07-30, 01:58 AM
For all of you talking about alignments, There is no "Ex-Warlocks" section in the book, so in theory one only has to be Chaotic or Evil to take the first level of warlock, no reason the alignment couldn't shift later on.While this might work for a PC, it is a bit of a harder sell with an entire army.


That alignment thing was part of the reason I figured the warlock had to make a pact with the outsider/fey/whatever. So, breach the pact and all your stuff poofs.Nah, the pact is just one of several possibilities suggested as an origin for a warlock, isn't it? It's popular fluff, not part of the usual class mechanics.


I thought of that too, but with a single cast of true strike, that ranged penalty is negated and makes the shot as easy as if the target was 30 feet away. It just seems kinda nuts to me, seeing as how the rules are letting you shoot much, much, much farther than they generally let you see. Try telling four people apart when they are standing 11 football fields away and wearing the same colors, for example.

A bow at that distance is more like an artillery piece anyway, and you'd be using them enmasse to blanket an area, rather than target a specific person. I just it's just a concession to heroic fantasy, but still !Yes, but when you're using magic, all bets are off. You can't say whether it makes sense or not when you don't even really know how True Strike works... maybe it basically turns your arrow into a laser-guided missile, where all you have to do is have some way of unambiguously selecting your desired target, fire/swing in their general direction, and the spell does most of the rest.

Draz74
2007-07-30, 02:23 AM
Back on topic:

X-Men can be good to stat with Warlock. Cyclops has an Eldritch Blast from his eyes ... actually, I guess it mostly breaks down after you go through a few X-Men with "blasting" abilities like that. Never mind.

I also saw Warlock dips being popular when people once were trying to stat our Super Smash Brothers characters. Mario's Fireballs were even an Eldritch Blast. (Though something tells me, nowadays, that a Ki Blast feat or a Desert Wind maneuver would be a better description.) Ganandorf especially is modeled great by a Warlock ... who rolled a ridiculously high Strength score and took Hideous Blow. Mewtwo could be a warlock too, even if flavor indicates Psionics.

Aquillion
2007-07-30, 10:12 PM
Hmm... maybe that's what the warlock needs. Absurd DBZ-style charged attacks!

To model it realistically, it would take the entire session (in real time) to charge an attack. Sometimes two sessions.

Starsinger
2007-07-30, 10:17 PM
Hmm... maybe that's what the warlock needs. Absurd DBZ-style charged attacks!

To model it realistically, it would take the entire session (in real time) to charge an attack. Sometimes two sessions.

And you have to grunt the whole time as if constipated beyond mortal comprehension.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-30, 11:50 PM
While this might work for a PC, it is a bit of a harder sell with an entire army.

Not necessarily. Given the right drill sergeants, they could all enter the army as chaotic punks, and get turned into disciplined professionals through boot camp (and in the case of warlocks, probably special forces training).


And you have to grunt the whole time as if constipated beyond mortal comprehension.

:smallamused: I'm imagining a DM of mine doing this... and the result is a truly brilliant mental image. Thank you.

Xefas
2007-07-31, 09:51 AM
Mmmm...I'm vaguely aware there was some sort of "see what you can make out of the warlock class" thingie going on in the original post, though one can't be certain.

In responding to that, I'd like to say if you switch around some class skills, a warlock makes a damn good ninja. Like...that PS2 Shinobi-esque ninja type ninja. I could see using the following invocations for such an endeavour:

1st lvl- Entropic Warding for cutting those arrows out of the air with a swing of your katana, and being untraceable.
2nd lvl- Spiderwalk for wall-running.
4th lvl- Devil's Sight for skulking about in the night as a race who doesn't have darkvision and not having to carry one of those damnable torches.
6th lvl- Walk Unsee for your wootsauce Shinobi hiding techniques.
8th lvl- Flee the Scene for your after-image goodness.

And all by 8th level! Note that if you don't want to explain away eldritch blast as some crazy ninja magic, you could always take Extra Invocation at 6th level for Hideous Blow. Oh, and if you already have darkvision and don't feel like Devil's Sight, Breath of the Night makes for excellent infinite smoke-bombs.

Attilargh
2007-07-31, 09:58 AM
Note that if you don't want to explain away eldritch blast as some crazy ninja magic,
What's so magic about shuriken? It's not like you would ever actually run out of weapons, that's just a myth.

Xefas
2007-07-31, 10:08 AM
What's so magic about shuriken? It's not like you would ever actually run out of weapons, that's just a myth.

Thats what I thought too, which works at lower levels. However, once you start fighting stuff with spell resistance, it takes a lil more suspension of disbelief (is that the right term?) to explain.

Ah, and if you own Dragon Magic, you could always take Eldritch Glaive to give yourself a really nice naginata instead of Hideous Blow.