3.5 - What Book Is Missing?

[Scorponok]

The other thread on monster manuals got me thinking, what book or sort of book is missing from the 3.5 collection? As an example, it could be an extension of a Tome of Battle, or maybe yet another mage-centric book, or even yet another monster manual, except this one based on all the various varieties of flumphs. If you could get WotC to write ONE more 3.5 book, what would it be?

For myself, I'd want a cross between a supplement to the monster manuals and a new low-cost equipment book. Something where X monster drops items A, B, C, and/or D, and Y monster drops items D, E,F, and/or G, and in the back of the book, list equipment you can make with a craft or profession check if you have items, say, A, B and F in your possession. In short, it would be nice that instead of the typical loot you get with killing a monster, you got materials that you could use to craft new items.

Barring that, I think 3.5 is missing a really good tropical jungle environment book. All sorts of deadly creatures and traps would be found in a jungle. Most people view the standard D&D adventure as taking place in a Sherwood Forest type environment, but there isn't a dedicated forest book either.

Gimme those three in 3.5 and I'd be a happy camper.

[Venger]

if you want a good jungle book, check out "secrets of xen'drik" and to a lesser extent "eberron explorers' handbook"

for me, a book of support for the alternative casting systems. psionics, tob, soulmelds, truenamer fix, etc. let all the non-caster casters have some new stuff and fix all the unissued eratta witht hem.

[ATHATH]

For myself, I'd want a cross between a supplement to the monster manuals and a new low-cost equipment book. Something where X monster drops items A, B, C, and/or D, and Y monster drops items D, E,F, and/or G, and in the back of the book, list equipment you can make with a craft or profession check if you have items, say, A, B and F in your possession. In short, it would be nice that instead of the typical loot you get with killing a monster, you got materials that you could use to craft new items.
Check out the power component rules (and the extra power components presented in a few Dragon Magazine articles); I think they're basically exactly that.

[ksbsnowowl]

^ Agree on those two Eberron books for Jungle Love.

I wish there had been a book like Fiendish Codexes 1 & 2 for the Upper Planes. Go into the struggles between Law and Chaos on the Good side, etc.

Alternatively, a book like the above, but for the Elemental Planes and the Genies. Give us stats for the Elemental Princes, and their actions/motivations on their respective planes, etc.

[Zaq]

This is far from the only book I feel is missing, but I'd like a "Races of" book for the "savage" races. Orcs, goblins/goblinoids, etc. Give them the same treatment that Races of the Dragon gave to kobolds (making them actually fleshed out and usable).

[Dagroth]

I want more PrCs & support for classes like the Dragon Shaman, Duskblade & Dragonfire Adept. I want more fixed-list spontaneous casters similar to WarMage, Beguiler & Dread Necromancer. I want an actual Archer class like the Warblade... maybe a thrown weapon class like the Shadowblade, too.

[flappeercraft]

I would like a ToB version of Spell Compendium as I like the concept of initiators but since there are not too much maneuvers compared to spells I tend to pick spellcasters instead.

[Big Fau]

This is far from the only book I feel is missing, but I'd like a "Races of" book for the "savage" races. Orcs, goblins/goblinoids, etc. Give them the same treatment that Races of the Dragon gave to kobolds (making them actually fleshed out and usable).

Pretty much the reason I love Eberron is because it gave goblinoids decent fluff.

A third Fiendish Codex, detailing Yugoloths and other non-Demon/Devil Evil Outsiders would have been fantastic.

[unseenmage]

Top of my list would be a hardcover of all the WotC online archives material. Just port it snd update it.

To really get me to buy it though a Constructs book akin to Libris Mortis would have been awesome. Collect and codify th ed Constructs rules and add some Unearthed Arcana style options for them.

A 3.5 Epic Level Handbook akin to the DMG2. Fix epic casting and some of the other more nonsensical stuff as well as add epic progressions for the rest of the classes.

Same treatment for the Deities and Demigods book with more focus on making gods playable. Perhaps combine this with the above. Making the unplayable playable all in one book.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'd like one of two books. "Complete Mundane", a book on every skill, expanded uses for them all in one place, some more in-depth mechanics for using them, additional Skill Tricks, and some other more hefty variant rules like Teamwork, Rituals, Weapon Bonds, etc. Basically more options for non-combat characters, and an increase in utility for all non-casters/ non-initiators. It might also collect all of the weapons that are scattered about the books in a more comprehensive way than AaEG. Getting revamps of mundane systems a la PF Unchained would be nice, too. I'd really like to be able to craft mundane objects faster than magical ones, or at least faster than a glacier moves.

Second, "Rules Compendium 2", a book that's purely an index of all the other books. Yes, we have projects like this that the community has made, but I'd really appreciate an official, thoroughly-researched book that presents all those tiny little hidden mechanics in their most up-to date form, that has errata already factored in, that has some new errata for things that need it, such as renaming things that have been erroneously updated via accidentally having the same name as something else that already existed, or such as a proper description of what the heck Polymorph and similar effects actually do without forcing us to reference two other books and five other spells. Maybe it could clarify all the things the designers originally missed, like Prestige Domains and Kobolds. It'd be nice if it were a searchable PDF/ database as well. Maybe it could even include references for all the officially licensed content, so that things like the fan-created Birthright, Spelljammer, Dark Sun or extended L5R/ kamalar/ Ravenloft books etc. can be properly referred to itP as valid options in games that allow all content.

[Bronk]

I'll second the FC3: Yugoloth edition, and online archive collections, and I think a skill/feat book would have been nice too.

I've always wanted a book just devoted to the fey though. Which ones are definitely immortal? Where do they go in the winter? Where do they get their clothes and equipment? Could we nail down the roles and locations of the Seelie and Unseelie Courts in one place? Where do the Thorns hang out when not on missions? Why are dryad circles so prominent locally when nymphs are more powerful? How do the Shidhe fit in? A list of protectors all in one place? The reason the Verdant Princes have wish master fluff without the wish? Maybe a rundown of fey origins and their roles as a progenitor race in Faerun? And so on.

Not much of that has been answered, certainly not for all fey, and it would be nice to not have to hunt what does exist down in twenty places.

That's the one I would have wanted most.

Edit: More fey stuff!

A dryad's tree doesn't read as being magical, but is it? And since dryads can only live in 'enormous' trees, which isn't a game term, how big are they, where do they come from, at what point does a dryad inhabit it, and where do they come from, anyway? How, in fact, do they make new dryads? (Origin story goes double for nymphs and satyrs.)

[Eldariel]

Well, the expanded "Creatures"-series would certainly be warranted. A "races of war"-sort of thing for Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, etc. would be one thing and something that could cover Orcs would likewise feel warranted.

Then there's a dearth of material on D&D Fey, particularly far as Seelie/Unseelie Courts and the like go. They sorta are there but there's very little material on populating the paths to the kingdoms of the fae and in general, the world of twilight and all the typical faerie tropes. You kinda have to wing it all. And while they are included, they don't even play a very significant part in any of the established settings; Dragons and Giants alongside the Humanoids and Planar Creatures and the denizens of the Underdark are usually accounted for, but Faeries just are sorta there in the woods without a very visible role in the world. Undersea matters are similar.

Finally, obviously ToB expansion for ranged use is almost automatic (and in general, ToB expansion), but thankfully we can just use Path of War for most of that stuff. Really, expanding on creatures and ecologies is the single greatest omission I find in the system; and with the amount of creatures in the system, there's almost limitless space there.

EDIT: I did not actually expect to get ninja'd on Fae.

[Bullet06320]

Top of my list would be a hardcover of all the WotC online archives material. Just port it snd update it.

that would be several books, I have printed out copies of the entire archives in binders and it takes 22 3 inch binders, but it would be nice to have actual books
there is a lot of material there


To really get me to buy it though a Constructs book akin to Libris Mortis would have been awesome. Collect and codify th ed Constructs rules and add some Unearthed Arcana style options for them.

that's a really good idea


I'd like one of two books. "Complete Mundane", a book on every skill, expanded uses for them all in one place, some more in-depth mechanics for using them, additional Skill Tricks, and some other more hefty variant rules like Teamwork, Rituals, Weapon Bonds, etc. Basically more options for non-combat characters, and an increase in utility for all non-casters/ non-initiators. It might also collect all of the weapons that are scattered about the books in a more comprehensive way than AaEG. Getting revamps of mundane systems a la PF Unchained would be nice, too. I'd really like to be able to craft mundane objects faster than magical ones, or at least faster than a glacier moves.

good idea


Second, "Rules Compendium 2", a book that's purely an index of all the other books. Yes, we have projects like this that the community has made, but I'd really appreciate an official, thoroughly-researched book that presents all those tiny little hidden mechanics in their most up-to date form, that has errata already factored in, that has some new errata for things that need it, such as renaming things that have been erroneously updated via accidentally having the same name as something else that already existed, or such as a proper description of what the heck Polymorph and similar effects actually do without forcing us to reference two other books and five other spells. Maybe it could clarify all the things the designers originally missed, like Prestige Domains and Kobolds. It'd be nice if it were a searchable PDF/ database as well. Maybe it could even include references for all the officially licensed content, so that things like the fan-created Birthright, Spelljammer, Dark Sun or extended L5R/ kamalar/ Ravenloft books etc. can be properly referred to itP as valid options in games that allow all content.
warcraft d20, call of cathulu d20 and sum odd piazo stuff and im sure there a few other oddball official licensed stuff that keeps popping up in several of those projects we have been working on

how about another dragon mag archive, re release the first 250 again, then another for the rest of the print and web run of the magazine, and one for dungeon mag as well, its content that not everyone has, but a lot of material in those pages

[Bronk]

I did not actually expect to get ninja'd on Fae.

Just shows that book would really have been appreciated!

[KillianHawkeye]

I was also going to say that the Fey and savage Humanoids (orcs, goblinoids) could both use some more love, LOL.

Also, I'd really like more information on Giants. Particularly their culture and social structures. Actually, just a lot more ecological information on monsters in general, but especially for those intelligent enough to form communities and societies. I know that the older editions gave information like that, but modern D&D cut most of that out and the most we get is usually a run down of a monster's combat tactics.

[Particle_Man]

Agreed that fey need more love.

More complete errata would be nice (tomb of battle, magic of incarnum, etc., could use some love).

Maybe a "book of tiers" for advice on how to run campaigns at various tier levels, or when the party is mis-matched tier-wise?

Book of closed loopholes would be interesting (if Heruclean) - closing all the rules abuses, etc.

Not wotc's responsibility, but it would be interesting if someone had gathered all the OGL stuff from everywhere (wotc and 3rd party, identified as such) into one hyperlinked website.

[Sian]

A book focusing on non-evil outsiders, similar to how Fiend Folio and Fiendish Codex 1/2 focus on evil outsiders.

A book focusing on the larger Law-Chaos conflict instead of the old and boring Good-evil

A Book on feys

A book focusing on making the underwater combat (and in effect flying and on no-gravity planes) less weird and fluff out the Aquatic races ... Stormwreck doesn't more than faintly touch on it, and only (barely) to the extend that they interconnect with coastal/naval societies

[Cosi]

Obviously there are a bunch of patterns you could complete. You could do a Races of book for Orcs or the Forgotten Realms. You could do a second Complete for psionics or martials. You could release a themed monster book for Outsiders or Constructs. You could release an environment book for Forests or Mountains. You could do sequels to books like Unearthed Arcana (a whole bunch of suggestions there have been implemented in various places) or Elder Evils. You could also do setting books for Spelljammer or Dark Sun.

The big thing I would like is versions of existing books that aren't terrible.

So Tome of Magic, except instead of padding three classes that range from "mediocre" to "terrible" out to a whole book, it's like fifteen classes which are all around the Beguiler or Sorcerer. But keep the thing where the classes have totally funky resource management systems. So a Beastmaster that gets pets which come with a suite of animal powers (so you pick the Cheetah, and you also get haste).

Or Tome of Battle, except instead of not giving utility options to martials, it does that, and instead of not giving mid or high level options that compete with spells, it does that. For example, a Shadow Hand stance that lets your shadow walk around and murder people, or an Iron Heart maneuver that works like one of the spells that replaces your heart and makes you super hard core.

Or Weapons of Legacy, except not asking you to pay through the nose for abilities you barely care about. Artifact swords are a totally reasonable way to make Fighters contribute, but the rules here fell totally flat.

Or Heroes of Battle, but with better rules for mass combat, and more discussion of magic in warfare, and a good Warlord base class (like the Marshall, but instead of sucking it doesn't do that).

In terms of new content, I'd like to see the lead taken from Dragon Magic. Not in terms of the actual content, because that is terrible (marvel at the might of the Wyrm Wizard giving up three levels of casting to fellate dragons and cast cure moderate wounds as a Wizard!), but in terms of what the content is for, it's pretty cool. Giving some new stuff to Binders and Incarnates is pretty good.

Honestly, there's not much that's new I want per se. All the "X, but not crap" books are things that should have happened (and others besides), but in terms of new stuff the only thing I can really think of is "something for running a kingdom" and "rules for strategy scale magic at levels people play". At least, as an overarching theme. I wouldn't say no to a Summoner or Diviner or whatever.

[Particle_Man]

A book focusing on the larger Law-Chaos conflict

That would be cool too!

[Cosi]

That would be cool too!

Would it? I don't think those terms are terribly coherently defined in D&D. I mean, there are Law Villains (the Reapers) and Chaos Villains (the Chaos Gods), but when you get down to it I don't know what it means for an action to be "chaotic" rather than "lawful". Really, I would very much prefer than the entire alignment system be discarded.

[Gildedragon]

ToB 2 is a pretty popular choice, and pretty good one.
Also for the extra love for Binding, Soul melding, and other extra systems would have been great.
Something like UA with ACFs and the like for non-core base classes/systems would be pretty cool.

A book on running low-combat or skill-heavy campaigns would have been good (guidelines for running intrigue, negotiations, and skills like it were combat.

"Fiendish" codices on the Good and Neutral planes would be good... Though I'd suspect the Good planes are a lot less schemey and backstabby...

3.5 Spacejammer would be great

[Thurbane]

A "Races of X" book directed at Goblinoids and Orcs.

A monster book in the style of Draconomicon, Libris Mortis and Lords of Madness directed at Fey, or Giants.

[daremetoidareyo]

A book of prestige classes that theurge the late coming base classes. Binder / psionics, initiator / incarnums, psionic bard, truespeaking / marshals,

[J-H]

A good ELH book is a good idea. "Savage races" for the monstrous humanoids (including orcs) would indeed be fun.

For use? A book that takes what we've learned over the last 15 years and presents a re-stat/retcon for a bunch of the massively underpowered classes like swashbuckler, CW Samurai, Green Star Adept, Acolyte of the Skin, etc.

[Thurbane]

for me, a book of support for the alternative casting systems. psionics, tob, soulmelds, truenamer fix, etc. let all the non-caster casters have some new stuff and fix all the unissued eratta witht hem.

Yes!


I wish there had been a book like Fiendish Codexes 1 & 2 for the Upper Planes. Go into the struggles between Law and Chaos on the Good side, etc.

BoED covers this somewhat.


Alternatively, a book like the above, but for the Elemental Planes and the Genies. Give us stats for the Elemental Princes, and their actions/motivations on their respective planes, etc.

Yes!


This is far from the only book I feel is missing, but I'd like a "Races of" book for the "savage" races. Orcs, goblins/goblinoids, etc. Give them the same treatment that Races of the Dragon gave to kobolds (making them actually fleshed out and usable).

1000 times yes!


I would like a ToB version of Spell Compendium as I like the concept of initiators but since there are not too much maneuvers compared to spells I tend to pick spellcasters instead.

Yes!


A third Fiendish Codex, detailing Yugoloths and other non-Demon/Devil Evil Outsiders would have been fantastic.

Yes!


Top of my list would be a hardcover of all the WotC online archives material. Just port it snd update it.

To really get me to buy it though a Constructs book akin to Libris Mortis would have been awesome. Collect and codify th ed Constructs rules and add some Unearthed Arcana style options for them.

A 3.5 Epic Level Handbook akin to the DMG2. Fix epic casting and some of the other more nonsensical stuff as well as add epic progressions for the rest of the classes.

Same treatment for the Deities and Demigods book with more focus on making gods playable. Perhaps combine this with the above. Making the unplayable playable all in one book.

Yes to all!

...it makes me happy to see how many others wanted a book for Orcs and Goblinoids...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd love to see a pair of books on law/chaos to match the books of exalted deeds and vile darkness, though I understand why this wouldn't necessariy be a popular suggestion.

I'll throw in a vote for the monster book on fey, as well.

[Thurbane]

For all those lamenting a book on Fey, this is a very well made "handbook" right here on our forum: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226612-3-5-The-Fey-Compendium

[Zombulian]

that would be several books, I have printed out copies of the entire archives in binders and it takes 22 3 inch binders, but it would be nice to have actual books
there is a lot of material there


Holy crap. How much does that cost at Kinkos?


I was also going to say that the Fey and savage Humanoids (orcs, goblinoids) could both use some more love, LOL.

Also, I'd really like more information on Giants. Particularly their culture and social structures. Actually, just a lot more ecological information on monsters in general, but especially for those intelligent enough to form communities and societies. I know that the older editions gave information like that, but modern D&D cut most of that out and the most we get is usually a run down of a monster's combat tactics.

Another vote for Fey expansion.
I'm also very curious about Giant civilization! I get that it was all woowoo and ancient but I feel like we could be given a little more info on a World-Power Empire of incredibly large humanoid beings.

[Bronk]

There's a lot of mentions of the war of Law vs. Chaos... we really needed an update to Planescape in 3.5.

[Agent 451]

There's a lot of mentions of the war of Law vs. Chaos... we really needed an update to Planescape in 3.5.

And Dark Sun!

[AOKost]

The biggest thing on the top of my list would be a book for mundane and magical materials for crafting. You have to scrounge around 20+ books to find anything specific and that's downright frustrating! In this book I would include all templates that could be added to equipment, be it mundane or magical, or only being available by taking prestige classes that require you to venture to a crafting god to learn the techniques required to apply said templates. Adding new mundane equipment wouldn't hurt either.

The book should also include templates such as laminating metals to provide the benefits of 2 + Craft (Armorsmithing/Blacksmithing/Metalworking/Weaponsmithing) (Ranks divided in half) materials would be cool or increasing the Hardness, Hit Points and if a weapon the critical threat range by 1 per 5 ranks of said crafting skill to make crafting skills of more interest to players instead of making them ask why they would spend points on something that otherwise makes little sense (Craft (Alchemy)) aside). It should also include how to combine multiple templates, such as Elf craft and Dwarven craft, and Serrated, Tempered, etc. It could also include templates for other substances than metal, such as wood, ceramic, glass, cloth, or virtually anything that can be seen as crafting materials. Note: Laminated Metals and Folded Metal should give the same bonus.

There should also be a vast increase of crafting materials, maybe available in remote realms/planes or across the universe, or in an alternate universe where the laws of reality are different, and thus have a periodic table of elements like we have in real life.

Tome of Battle should have an update.

A book about Fey would be nice.

A book about crafting constructs (and possibly incorporating some of the crafting topics i just covered incorporated into materials would be neat) is a must at this point. Changing aspects of constructs feats/skills/abilities should be expanded. Where's the auto-plow for the rich farmer that plows 300 fields in a day and fertilizes the soil with magic so that he can get 9 seasons of crops in 1 and the constructs that are all arms that maintain and harvest the fields? It's got to come from sooooomewhere.....

A new codices on the planes, their denizens and all other aspects including gravity, time, warping, etc.

I would LOOOOVE an update for Savage Species!

A book about for nothing but prestige classes, taking them to 20 levels, or at least increasing most to 10.

Archived materials no longer available or seemingly lost to 404-error links available in printed format would be awesome. I can't begin to count the number of times I've looked or epic progression of prestige classes only to find frustration way to many times...

I hate suggesting this but I feel it's one of the biggest improvements from Pathfinder, but incorporate CMB/CMD.

I highly second the suggestion of an Epic Level Handbook 2 that's like the Player's Handbook 2 and Dungeon Master's Guide 2, but there should also be an Epic Monster Manual.

I use an alternate rule system for character creation and advancement I found many years ago here: http://www.easydamus.com/CustomCharacters.html that I absolutely love... I have my own modified version of these rules and have massively updated the selection of choices to choose from but you'll get the idea if you check it out. I'd love for something like this to be officially offered as viable but it's such a drastic difference that it might be a hard sell...

A Fiendish Codex for Yougoloth would be really nice, but I really feel that a Heavens or Benevolent Codex would be more in order at this point to even things out. The Book of Exalted Deeds does help slightly with this but not near enough to really be compared with either of the Fiendish Codexes.

Another update desperately needed would be an improvement on Weapons of Legacy. Great idea, very poor execution.

There are several lines that need to be followed up, such as the alternate casting system using spell points instead of spell slots in a similar way to psionics.

Even though Warlock is one of the best supported non-base class, I would love to see further development of them and their capabilities

In essence, there's a massive amount of materials that COULD and SHOULD be published!

P.S.: I forgot to add 3.5 Spelljammer and Dark Sun materials would be very welcomed!

[Bronk]

P.S.: I forgot to add 3.5 Spelljammer and Dark Sun materials would be very welcomed!

I'll second (or third?) Spelljammer materials, because although there are a few mentions in Forgotten Realms materials and a few magazine based updates, and two or three conflicting web based sources, there just isn't enough to base a full game on without just outright porting stuff yourself.

For example, there are hardly any Spelljammer magic items that actually appear in 3.5 materials, no further mention of crystal spheres, and between Stormwrack and the Arms sand Equipment Guide, the ship building and combat rules are a mess.

[bekeleven]

There is a very particular type of class that I like to play. Classes that have infinite potential, but require some build decisions to specialize. I wouldn't mind an entire book of those.

Also, as other people said, Fey. Petals just too good. #FreeCohorts

[Thurbane]

On a personal note, I wish Greyhawk got a 3.5 campaign setting book (the Gazetteer was OK, but quite limited).

Unfortunately I got on the Living Greyhawk bandwagon just as it was shutting down.

[AOKost]

On a personal note, I wish Greyhawk got a 3.5 campaign setting book (the Gazetteer was OK, but quite limited).

Unfortunately I got on the Living Greyhawk bandwagon just as it was shutting down.

I completely agree with you. Any materials that open up new campaign settings, classes, equipment, spells, abilities, powers and more are highly welcomed!

[Melcar]

The other thread on monster manuals got me thinking, what book or sort of book is missing from the 3.5 collection? As an example, it could be an extension of a Tome of Battle, or maybe yet another mage-centric book, or even yet another monster manual, except this one based on all the various varieties of flumphs. If you could get WotC to write ONE more 3.5 book, what would it be?

For myself, I'd want a cross between a supplement to the monster manuals and a new low-cost equipment book. Something where X monster drops items A, B, C, and/or D, and Y monster drops items D, E,F, and/or G, and in the back of the book, list equipment you can make with a craft or profession check if you have items, say, A, B and F in your possession. In short, it would be nice that instead of the typical loot you get with killing a monster, you got materials that you could use to craft new items.

Barring that, I think 3.5 is missing a really good tropical jungle environment book. All sorts of deadly creatures and traps would be found in a jungle. Most people view the standard D&D adventure as taking place in a Sherwood Forest type environment, but there isn't a dedicated forest book either.

Gimme those three in 3.5 and I'd be a happy camper.

I would like to have some more "Mundane" options for some of the arch-types: Healier, Tank, Rogue/Thief, Melee DPS, as well as multiple options of improving stuff like grapling, tripping, etc.

[Bronk]

Maybe also an official list/table somewhere that reconciled all the monster descriptions and art with their listed size categories.

For example, individual shimmerlings are fine, and petals are what, tiny? But if it wasn't for the shimmerling art showing the swarm, you'd think the art was switched at the least.

The art in the srd/MM1 for sprites has their relatives sizes screwed up too...

Meanwhile, there's a cool picture of a legendary bear in the ELH showing looming over some adventurers, the size of a house... but it turns out that they're locked in at large size.

That kind of thing... except that if they were going to also go ahead and make changes based on that, I'd rather they changed the stats to match the art and not the other way around.

[DGIF2015]

This is far from the only book I feel is missing, but I'd like a "Races of" book for the "savage" races. Orcs, goblins/goblinoids, etc. Give them the same treatment that Races of the Dragon gave to kobolds (making them actually fleshed out and usable).


sweet thanks!!

[DGIF2015]

^ Agree on those two Eberron books for Jungle Love.

I wish there had been a book like Fiendish Codexes 1 & 2 for the Upper Planes. Go into the struggles between Law and Chaos on the Good side, etc.

Alternatively, a book like the above, but for the Elemental Planes and the Genies. Give us stats for the Elemental Princes, and their actions/motivations on their respective planes, etc.

AMEN!! Books for the Upper Planes would have been nice

[Psyren]

I wish there had been a book like Fiendish Codexes 1 & 2 for the Upper Planes. Go into the struggles between Law and Chaos on the Good side, etc.

Alternatively, a book like the above, but for the Elemental Planes and the Genies. Give us stats for the Elemental Princes, and their actions/motivations on their respective planes, etc.


This is far from the only book I feel is missing, but I'd like a "Races of" book for the "savage" races. Orcs, goblins/goblinoids, etc. Give them the same treatment that Races of the Dragon gave to kobolds (making them actually fleshed out and usable).


I'd love to see a pair of books on law/chaos to match the books of exalted deeds and vile darkness, though I understand why this wouldn't necessariy be a popular suggestion.



"Rules Compendium 2"

+1000 to these.

Also, Alchemy needs love in 3.5. A 3.5 Alchemist would be great, along with ways for mundanes to create alchemical items so that you could actually sorta-kinda run a low-magic game.

[atemu1234]

I would've liked more stuff on the systems introduced in Tome of Magic; like how some books included some psionic stuff.

[Eldan]

I'll n'th a book on Fey, I always wanted one.

Then, of course: Fiendish Codex III: Masterminds of Hades. Perhaps, if time allows, followed by the Axial Codex, Anarchic Codex, Balanced Codex and Celestial Codices I-III.

Going away from the fluff for a bit, I'd quiet like a more material for a lot of the systems. Age of Warriors was a great project on this forum where something like a hundred new Tome of Battle schools were collected. I'd love something like a series of Spell Compendium like books for other subsystems. Vestige Compendium. Soulmeld Compendium. Mystery Compendium.

[Jeriah]

Unfortunately I got on the Living Greyhawk bandwagon just as it was shutting down.As neat as Living Greyhawk was, I'm convinced that its existence is the primary reason we never got many books dedicated to Greyhawk. The style and organization of LG really prevented it from being collected into a book series. After all, each book would have to be published only to be edited and republished the following year to be relevant, which is untenable in dead tree format.

What I hated most about LG was that it was real-world region based, preventing you from exploring the parts of the setting that you liked and enjoyed, forcing you to play in only what was permitted locally.

I'd love to see a set of books for Greyhawk on par with Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

[Thurbane]

As neat as Living Greyhawk was, I'm convinced that its existence is the primary reason we never got many books dedicated to Greyhawk. The style and organization of LG really prevented it from being collected into a book series. After all, each book would have to be published only to be edited and republished the following year to be relevant, which is untenable in dead tree format.

What I hated most about LG was that it was real-world region based, preventing you from exploring the parts of the setting that you liked and enjoyed, forcing you to play in only what was permitted locally.

I'd love to see a set of books for Greyhawk on par with Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

All very valid points.

I even bought both different versions of Greyhawk Gazetteer (it took me a while to realize they were two distinct books), and they were both quite unsatisfying. They had some decent info, but no crunch.

http://i63.tinypic.com/mvi62b.jpg http://i66.tinypic.com/24q4yo4.jpg

Greyhawk got a lot of fan love, but an official 3.X setting book would have been much appreciated.

For my tastes, Eberron was too steam-punky and trying too hard to be "quirky"; and FR was too focused on powergaming and Ed Greenwood's Mary/Marty Sues.

[Venger]

All very valid points.

I even bought both different versions of Greyhawk Gazetteer (it took me a while to realize they were two distinct books), and they were both quite unsatisfying. They had some decent info, but no crunch.

http://i63.tinypic.com/mvi62b.jpg http://i66.tinypic.com/24q4yo4.jpg

Greyhawk got a lot of fan love, but an official 3.X setting book would have been much appreciated.

For my tastes, Eberron was too steam-punky and trying too hard to be "quirky"; and FR was too focused on powergaming and Ed Greenwood's Mary/Marty Sues.

I can see how you'd assume they were the same. I sure would've.

Personally, I love Eberron. It's everything a good setting should be, but I can see how it doesn't mesh with expectations of a high fantasy setting if that's what you're after.

Do you think you could explain the difference between greyhawk/forgotten realms/faerun/etc? they kind of all bleed together to me.

[Thurbane]

Do you think you could explain the difference between greyhawk/forgotten realms/faerun/etc? they kind of all bleed together to me.

I can definitely see how Greyhawk and FR could bleed together. Eberron, not so much (well, I mean they are all D&D based settings, so they'll have a lot of things in common in the most basic sense).

Greyhawk was (more-or-less) the original D&D setting. Such common names as Mordenkainen, Heward, Kord, Pelor and so forth all originated here. And that's a big part of why I love the setting. It's kind of the "starting point" for all other D&D settings. Plus it's also the setting I cut my teeth on.

Forgotten Realms to me, feel like an "amped up" Greyhawk. It's got it's own cosmology and recognisable names (Elminster, Drizzt, Mystra, Bane etc.). My main beef is that most of the PrCs, feats, spells and the like, feel like they are made "moar powerful" just for the heck of it, or built specifically to avoid rules as written. NPCs like Elminster and Drizzt are Marty Sues in the worst way. They not only have impenetrable layers of plot armor, they have items and abilities that were made up literally just for them. I think I read somewhere that the average NPC level in Waterdeep is 13? I'm really not sure if that was a joke or not.

I don't know that much about Eberron: I own the campaign setting and a couple of splats, but never integrated them into a game. I like that the author tried to take a new direction, introducing new races, radically different cosmology and theme of the setting. Problem for me is, I don't like the flavour. It's well written, but just not to my taste. I also think that Dark Sun did the same kind of thing (very non-standard setting type), only better, many years beforehand...

[animewatcha]

We got Exalted and Vile through official sources. We Anarchy feats through dragon mag. What happened to the Lawful end?

[Venger]

I can definitely see how Greyhawk and FR could bleed together. Eberron, not so much (well, I mean they are all D&D based settings, so they'll have a lot of things in common in the most basic sense).

Greyhawk was (more-or-less) the original D&D setting. Such common names as Mordenkainen, Heward, Kord, Pelor and so forth all originated here. And that's a big part of why I love the setting. It's kind of the "starting point" for all other D&D settings. Plus it's also the setting I cut my teeth on.

Forgotten Realms to me, feel like an "amped up" Greyhawk. It's got it's own cosmology and recognisable names (Elminster, Drizzt, Mystra, Bane etc.). My main beef is that most of the PrCs, feats, spells and the like, feel like they are made "moar powerful" just for the heck of it, or built specifically to avoid rules as written. NPCs like Elminster and Drizzt are Marty Sues in the worst way. They not only have impenetrable layers of plot armor, they have items and abilities that were made up literally just for them. I think I read somewhere that the average NPC level in Waterdeep is 13? I'm really not sure if that was a joke or not.

I don't know that much about Eberron: I own the campaign setting and a couple of splats, but never integrated them into a game. I like that the author tried to take a new direction, introducing new races, radically different cosmology and theme of the setting. Problem for me is, I don't like the flavour. It's well written, but just not to my taste. I also think that Dark Sun did the same kind of thing (very non-standard setting type), only better, many years beforehand...
Oh, sure. No explanation on Eberron needed, I'm an expert there. I more meant etc as a catchall in case I'd left out one of the default 3.0 settings. agree entirely on FR. it doesn't help that their idea of "moar power" is just incompetently multiclassing everyone.

[Psyren]

As neat as Living Greyhawk was, I'm convinced that its existence is the primary reason we never got many books dedicated to Greyhawk. The style and organization of LG really prevented it from being collected into a book series. After all, each book would have to be published only to be edited and republished the following year to be relevant, which is untenable in dead tree format.

What I hated most about LG was that it was real-world region based, preventing you from exploring the parts of the setting that you liked and enjoyed, forcing you to play in only what was permitted locally.

I'd love to see a set of books for Greyhawk on par with Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

You raise a good point and I'd be curious about a collection of setting books for other iconic D&D locations too, like Mystara and Athas. I'm not even sure of all the ones I'm missing.

[Sian]

Main issue with Forgotten Realms in my mind, is that its primarily a novel-series setting that have been stuffed into trying to fit the mold of a D&D setting (as if you made a square peg fit a round hole, only using a axe), only rarely with success ... The writers were much more interested in telling interesting stories than trying to get them to work mechanics-wise

such as ... Elminster's Multiclassing early on is because the character used time both as a thief, a guerilla fighter / rebel and a hyper-competent priestess (he got cursed with genderbending by Mystra) before he started focusing on Wizardry as such ... He's utterly impossible to craft in a game without being dead weight or completely ignoring his history and skills.

In fact, I'd guess that 'bout 2/3ths of the canon novels (with Knights of Myth Drannor being a notiable exception since that's a prettied up gamelog of his private game) are impossible to make happen mechanically without liberal use of Rule 0.

the setting as a whole only barely misses being less mechanics-compliant than Dragonlance

[Rizban]

All very valid points.

I even bought both different versions of Greyhawk Gazetteer (it took me a while to realize they were two distinct books), and they were both quite unsatisfying. They had some decent info, but no crunch.

http://i63.tinypic.com/mvi62b.jpg http://i66.tinypic.com/24q4yo4.jpg

Greyhawk got a lot of fan love, but an official 3.X setting book would have been much appreciated.

For my tastes, Eberron was too steam-punky and trying too hard to be "quirky"; and FR was too focused on powergaming and Ed Greenwood's Mary/Marty Sues.Both books were 3.0 and technically Greyhawk, but they served very different purposes.

(D&D) Gazetteer was the "generic" D&D setting for 3rd edition. It was Greyhawk with some updated rules but designed and written to be more of a showcase of the rules and how to use them than a true campaign book. As the book itself says,
The D&D Gazeteer presents you an example of how a fantasy game world can be built.
...
Though the setting is well developed, only the bare bones of it are given here.It was Greyhawk watered down and then updated to 3.0 to give early developers, and I guess players, a common ground to work from. It never seemed to be more than that. It even said of itself that it wasn't very comprehensive and was rather lacking.

Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was published two months later, because they had the RPGA and were starting the Living Greyhawk project. They seem to have realized that the Gazetteer was insufficient for the project and did some extra work compiling all of the setting information needed for LG. It says of itself,
[Living Greyhawk Gazetteer] is an introduction to a completely new concept in roleplaying games.
...
it also forms a common starting point for thousands of players who will shape the future of Oerth in the RPGA® Network's international LIVING GREYHAWK campaign. Details on how to join this exciting campaign appear in the appendix.The whole purpose of the second book was creating a foundational document for the RPGA's LG project. However, it was never going to get any specific splatbook support after that for two reasons: Setting specific splatbooks would have interfered with the way Living Greyhawk was organized and run. The triads and other leaders were meant to write the campaigns, quests, and npcs and otherwise develop and write the setting in an "organic" way as LG progressed over the years. If WotC published setting books as they did with Faerun, those would be seen as the default and "overwrite" anything that the LG leadership was doing. Since the RPGA was the primary means by which they were expecting to bring in new players and hence new customers, stepping on the RPGA's toes would have been seen as a bad thing. Remember that LG was the D&D equivalent of Friday Night Magic, both created and run by WotC...
The generic 3.0 D&D splatbooks were meant to be based in Greyhawk already. So, all of the core books were seen as essentially the Greyhawk Campaign Setting anyway... with just a splash of stuff from other settings for flavor. LG incorporated the parts of these books that were deemed appropriate by the committees into the constantly updated Living Greyhawk Campaign Standards/Sourcebook (name varied over time), which can be found here on the WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/welcome).

If you're looking for a good Greyhawk sourcebook, I suggest that one the LGCS pdf. There's not a whole lot of new crunch in it, but it does add some new things and update some general content to Greyhawk and offer a few balance adjustments. Do note that they separated out the religious stuff at the end, so you'll need the Living Greyhawk Deities v.2.0 pdf, also on that same WotC page, if you want the full setting document.

Edit: The other distinctly Greyhawk book published was Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. However, it was written as part of the Expedition series that included Castle Ravenloft, Undermountain, and Demonweb Pits. ERCG was published in 2007, right near the end of the LG project and was basically the campaign for the final two years of LG, where Bright Lands had been the campaign prior.


You raise a good point and I'd be curious about a collection of setting books for other iconic D&D locations too, like Mystara and Athas. I'm not even sure of all the ones I'm missing.Mystara/Known World/Blackmoor/Hollow World would make for an interesting book, but other than just collecting the basic setting information or the various regions, governments, and peoples, I can't see it offering much. While I thought it was a neat setting, it just never really seemed to have that much to differentiate it from any other generic high fantasy setting.

[Sian]

Mystara/Known World/Blackmoor/Hollow World would make for an interesting book, but other than just collecting the basic setting information or the various regions, governments, and peoples, I can't see it offering much. While I thought it was a neat setting, it just never really seemed to have that much to differentiate it from any other generic high fantasy setting.

Couldn't the argument be made that Dragon #315 already covered this on a very basic level?

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the info and explanations Rizban. I can certainly see why Living Greyhawk may not have meshed well with hard cover splats for Greyhawk.

Still, I just wish it had panned out differently. I personally believe they could have had, at the very least, a campaign setting book similar to the Eberron Campaign Setting hardcover; it would have been a great opportunity to introduce some Greyhawk specific PrCs, feats (to "legitimize" the Greyhawk regional feats that appeared in Dragon Magazine), 3.X updates of some Greyhawk specific monsters and races that never got official updates from 1E/2E etc.

I'm sure they could have thought of a way to have a campaign setting book exist alongside Living Greyhawk, or even integrate it into LG.

[Hecuba]

And Dark Sun!

Of all the officially licensed fan continuations of old settings into 3.5, Athas.org's Dark Sun materials are probably the best.

Core rule book: http://athas.org/products/ds3
Prestige class compendium 1: http://athas.org/products/prc1
General archive: http://athas.org/products

[Rizban]

Thanks for the info and explanations Rizban. I can certainly see why Living Greyhawk may not have meshed well with hard cover splats for Greyhawk.

Still, I just wish it had panned out differently. I personally believe they could have had, at the very least, a campaign setting book similar to the Eberron Campaign Setting hardcover; it would have been a great opportunity to introduce some Greyhawk specific PrCs, feats (to "legitimize" the Greyhawk regional feats that appeared in Dragon Magazine), 3.X updates of some Greyhawk specific monsters and races that never got official updates from 1E/2E etc.

I'm sure they could have thought of a way to have a campaign setting book exist alongside Living Greyhawk, or even integrate it into LG.I always wondered why they never collected, edited, and published books with the ongoing quest lines from LG after they had been "retired" from active play. I mean, sure, those actively in RPGA might not particularly want them, but it was a collection of ready-made content that they could have easily published and profited from. It would give a chance for players to, albeit unofficially, take part in the stories from other regions and/or play through events that they missed as well as a way for players who didn't have a local RPGA chapter to play. I really never understood why they didn't do that, and the only reason given that ever filtered down the chain to us lowly players was "Because."


Of all the officially licensed fan continuations of old settings into 3.5, Athas.org's Dark Sun materials are probably the best.

Core rule book: http://athas.org/products/ds3
Prestige class compendium 1: http://athas.org/products/prc1
General archive: http://athas.org/productsI second that!

Still, for Dark Sun games, I prefer to go back and play 2E. It just feels more "right" to me in 2E than it does in 3E. I can't really point to anything specific as being the issue, and I do enjoy 3E Dark Sun. I just prefer 2E, because I personally think the setting works better in that system.

[Sagetim]

I always wondered why they never collected, edited, and published books with the ongoing quest lines from LG after they had been "retired" from active play. I mean, sure, those actively in RPGA might not particularly want them, but it was a collection of ready-made content that they could have easily published and profited from. It would give a chance for players to, albeit unofficially, take part in the stories from other regions and/or play through events that they missed as well as a way for players who didn't have a local RPGA chapter to play. I really never understood why they didn't do that, and the only reason given that ever filtered down the chain to us lowly players was "Because."

I second that!

Still, for Dark Sun games, I prefer to go back and play 2E. It just feels more "right" to me in 2E than it does in 3E. I can't really point to anything specific as being the issue, and I do enjoy 3E Dark Sun. I just prefer 2E, because I personally think the setting works better in that system.

That might be because your starting level 3 Psionicist in Athas could explode people's heads quite competently while it takes more than level 3 to really get there in 3.5's psionics' rules. You know, because you didn't make it to adulthood on Athas without being at least level 3. In case anyone forgot about that setting rule.

I would probably want a good supplement for psionics and the other not-magic classes. Binders, Shadowcasters, Truenamers, Psionics, Maneuverists, and Incarnum supplementary material, errata, and mixing prestige classes and custom items that are more than just a particular named +10 to skill check item. Psionics got a good start on that with things like psychoactive skins, third eyes, and other quirky stuff like that, but Tome of Battle classes basically had one good magic item that they couldn't even craft, and that was the flavorful whatever it was called that let you access a maneuver from a given discipline and had them range in power from 1st to 3rd, 4th to 6th and 7th to 9th.

And, of course, that book could provide proper errata for all of those systems instead of, for example, the giant middle finger that tome of battle got for it's official 3.5 errata document.

[Jeriah]

and Incarnum supplementary material, errata, and mixing prestige classes and custom items

Incarnum should really be classified as a drug. It's like once you start playing with that subsystem, you can't ever stop. I feel the need to include incarnum on every character I make...

[Bronk]

And another thing! The 'subsystem' thread got me thinking that another book that was sorely needed was book that was the definitive work on dreams. One place that fleshed out the Region of Dreams, dreamscapes, Dreamheart, more on the Lucid Dreaming skill (and adding it as a class skill at least somewhere), more dream magic items, more dream creatures, dream element creatures, dream magic, and an official way to tie dream adventures in to regular waking adventures.

[Thurbane]

Incarnum should really be classified as a drug. It's like once you start playing with that subsystem, you can't ever stop. I feel the need to include incarnum on every character I make...

I feel a little bit that way with ToB: I was very resistant to it at first, now I love it.

[Eldan]

And another thing! The 'subsystem' thread got me thinking that another book that was sorely needed was book that was the definitive work on dreams. One place that fleshed out the Region of Dreams, dreamscapes, Dreamheart, more on the Lucid Dreaming skill (and adding it as a class skill at least somewhere), more dream magic items, more dream creatures, dream element creatures, dream magic, and an official way to tie dream adventures in to regular waking adventures.

Which honestly could tie into the regularly mentioned fey book pretty easily.

[Rizban]

And another thing! The 'subsystem' thread got me thinking that another book that was sorely needed was book that was the definitive work on dreams. One place that fleshed out the Region of Dreams, dreamscapes, Dreamheart, more on the Lucid Dreaming skill (and adding it as a class skill at least somewhere), more dream magic items, more dream creatures, dream element creatures, dream magic, and an official way to tie dream adventures in to regular waking adventures.
Which honestly could tie into the regularly mentioned fey book pretty easily.Definitely agreed on this point. A book on dreams would perfectly tie into a book on fey. I like it.

[Bronk]

Which honestly could tie into the regularly mentioned fey book pretty easily.

Definitely! A few dream fey wouldn't hurt either, that's for sure...

[Professor Chimp]

Well, a book that gives archery and other ranged mundanes some actual options to put them on par with melee would be nice. Preferably Tome of Battle style.

I'll also nth the idea of a book focusing on Fey, Giants, Constructs, Elementals and non-Evil Outsiders.

[Rizban]

Well, a book that gives archery and other ranged mundanes some actual options to put them on par with melee would be nice. Preferably Tome of Battle style.

I'll also nth the idea of a book focusing on Fey, Giants, Constructs, Elementals and non-Evil Outsiders.

For archery, I'm usually fine with just dropping the PBS feat tax and eliminating Precise Shot entirely
If you want to looks at it another way, those two feats are like forcing every melee character to take Weapon Focus just to take feats related to weapons and "Lethal Attack" to deal lethal damage without a -4 attack penalty. It's stupid.