I don't like Haley

[Cubey]

Gah! The post was almost halfway-done when I accidentaly closed the window. Here we go again.

The reason why I am making this thread is because it would be too long to post at the "disliked characters" thread, and I didn't want to derail it with anti-Haley and pro-Haley posts. Hence, a new one.
WARNING! The OP is not a primary English speaker, as much as he hates to admit it.

I don't like Haley. I used to at the start, but I do not anymore. I like strong women... no, that would be sexist - I like strong characters. I do not necessarily mean physical strength, but rather a strong and independent will. Haley started as a strong-willed character, just like any other OOTS member, but that changed during the comic's course.

It all started more or less here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0314.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html
We see Haley's Self-Loathing here. Ironically, in all these comics it is Haley who pities herself more than Self-Loathing, who comes up with good plans that would, probably, free her from her uncomfortable situation (and the readers from the horror known as Haley's cryptograms). Yet, Haley doesn't have enough courage and self-assurance to take necessary steps.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0319.html
Self-Loathing gets owned, and we all think it will be over soon. Well, not really... this is also an important strip, as it starts Haley's personality transformation from Weak-Willed #1 (horrible emo) to Weak-Willed #2 (more about it below).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html
Just because I feel like it, here's the second-to-last cool thing Haley did.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html
The prophecy. A VERY important strip.
"When the gift horse comes calling, don't look it in the mouth."
The transformation into Weak-Willed #2 personality type is even ENCOURAGED by outside forces! Now, I think it's time to explain what that #2 is.

It's a person who has little free will. Someone who accepts things as they are with no criticism, and doesn't try to change them. Someone who lets the world around them manipulate, use or boss them around. Someone who, being mostly incapable of their own decisions, clings to others to decide for them. Someone who has more optimism and blind faith that "things will turn out good in the end" than they have initiative.

Of course, the Oracle encouraged Haley to act like that only in one particular situation (though it doesn't explain what situation). BUT - it worked out in the end! That sets up an example for Haley - if she becomes dependant and weak-willed like that, things will always turn out good in the end. An example that she, in my opinion and to my dislike, follows from now on.


That was a long point! Let's move on.

Nothing important for this thread happens for a long time after the visit to the Oracle, maybe excluding that Haley got owned by a druid's ANIMAL COMPANION with stoneskin on. Invest in a better gear/build, girl!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0381.html
Haley receives an invitation from "non-Elan".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html
Self-Loathing is extremely suspicious of this, and for heck of a good reason. Other of Haley's personality aspects ignore that, and Haley AGREES with them. Sure, ignore the obvious suspicions. Things will work out in the end. Go with the flow, that's the only way to be happy. Nothing good ever came from forethought and initiative.
This is the strip in which Haley's transformation is complete. My dislike for her only gets deeper from now on.

The evening itself, however, doesn't have any events that make me dislike Haley more.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html
Very moving - no sarcasm here. At least Haley fully overcame her Emo side. Too bad the Dependant side is fully active now.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html
Although the romantic part makes me go "aww" (much more tasteful than the further Haley/Elan makings out in my opinion), this strip shows off Haley's dependant side even further. She tries to (weakly, but still) propose to remain in status quo, Elan wants to make out. Who is Haley to reject? From now on, they are in a relationship, with Elan being set up as the dominant from the VERY START. I do not dislike Elan (I still laugh at his childish antics), I do not dislike relationships - but if they are of a healthy, romantic union of two people who treat themselves as equals. This isn't the case here - I do not say Elan tries to be dominant, but rather that Haley subconsciously sets her up as the submissive one. BDSM puns not intended.


OFFTOPIC! I'm not a feminist (I'm a guy to start with), but playing devil's advocate for them. Not to take seriously.

Did you notice that in OOTS, from all the important (read: have names. Excludes Scribbles part - that's history, and the books - because I didn't read them) female characters, all the ones you could consider protagonists are in a developing or fully established romantic relationship?
Haley - Elan
Celia - Roy
Kazumi - Daigo
Lien - Hinjo (well, this one's more subtle and MIGHT be untrue)
V's gender is unknown, but it IS married after all

Antagonists and/or unsympathetic female characters are:
Sabine: in a relationship with Nale, but I didn't imply that antagonists HAVE to be single, only that protagonists are
Miko: strict and single. A real b*tch, and at the moment - dead!
Samantha: opposite of Miko. Rather "loose" but doesn't seem to be interested in a lasting partner. Still a b*tch too, and dead as well.
Julia: single. Well, of course, she's underage. But still horribly annoying and obnoxious, possibly more than Miko.

It's like if the Giant was saying that, for a woman, being in a romantic relationship with a guy is a REQUIREMENT to be nice and/or good. Not being in one results in punishment - being portrayed as a total female-canine and quite possibly death.

/OFFTOPIC. Reminder - don't take the offtopic seriously!


Where were we? Ah yes. From comic 400, Haley becomes fully dependant on Elan. She clings to him all the time, using EVERY opportunity (including mid-combat) for smooching, love letters and other stuff which wouldn't be annoying if it wasn't done in a horribly "teenager" way, like teens who confuse their first hormone-storm induced lusts as true love, and who are so inexperienced that they pursue these lusts with novice-like enthusiasm, but also novice-like lack of subtlety. Not only that, but Haley hardly DECIDES to do anything else from now on, she's been reduced to a role of "Elan's girlfriend who can also fight" (albeit not very well - bad build!). Anything not Elan-related she does now, including retrieving Roy's corpse, she does because she was forced to by outside influences, not because she decided to. She's in command now because Roy PUT her in as second-in-command, so she is SUPPOSED to take on initiative now - like a soldier who can think quite well, but doesn't until their commander orders them to think. She is SUPPOSED to fight the hobgoblins, lest she and her friends die. She is SUPPOSED to retrieve Roy's body, to ressurect him. I am NOT saying that a free-willed person would have done something different here (unless they would be a total arse who doesn't care about their friends), but I am pre-emptively pointing out to my future critics that these are NOT acts of free or strong will, as she didn't really have an option here. Same for running from Azure City instead of fighting to death - no real option here, unless you're a suicide samurai-type.


I have to give Haley some justice though, she SOMETIMES shines:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html
Last time she did something awesome before that was in strip #327. One cool thing per 100 comics, wow.


And this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html
Is not cool for me. It looks cool, but then you realise that Belkar, whose build is in theory as bad as Haley's - halfling dual wielding ranger/barbarian as opposed to a RANGED rogue (means sneak attack once per a fight rather than once per round!) with apparently non-magical weapons; faced a much bigger group of hobgoblins and won with no problems, while Haley was in trouble (facing CR 1 creatures!) and almost lost, if not a stroke of luck. Go with the flow Haley, things will always go well in the end.

[Morty]

Self-Loathing is extremely suspicious of this, and for heck of a good reason. Other of Haley's personality aspects ignore that, and Haley AGREES with them. Sure, ignore the obvious suspicions. Things will work out in the end. Go with the flow, that's the only way to be happy. Nothing good ever came from forethought and initiative.
This is the strip in which Haley's transformation is complete. My dislike for her only gets deeper from now on.

That's the part I strongly disagree with. Accusations of "going with the flow" make no sense, and baseless accusations don't make whole rant look better. Haley belives in what she sees because for her whole life, she's been overly suspicious, and it didn't make anything better. So now she's trying something else. And anyway, not accepting Nale's invitation would be completely paranoid. How could she know it was Nale, not Elan? Sure, Nale wasn't acting like Elan would, but people behave oddly from time to time.
For everything else, I don't mostly agree, but I definetly see where you're coming from. However, while it may seem that Haley is "weak" you've got to notice that she was apparently playing "strong" person for her whole life, but it didn't end well. Not to mention comic's got it's part of "strong" female characters in person of Miko.

[Rajhiim]

Haley is fine... She is in the grip of "puppy love" which, as most of us know, is quite 'gripping' :biggrin:

While the love is fresh and hot - she will continue to be distracted (as will he). It's not that she is weaker or losing her own fabric, it's just the "more interested in Elan" than herself bit.

It will settle down and the sexy Haley will return.

:haley:

Remember, she shot Roy in his Titan... Hahah

[Cubey]

M0rt, you got me wrong. I don't dislike OOTS because it has only weak female characters - that's untrue, as it both got strong female characters (not only Miko) and I like OOTS a lot. It's just Haley that I dislike.

When I say "go with the flow", I mean "accept things as they are and not try to change them". If it has a different meaning, blame my ignorance. Anyway, here's a Haley quote:

You could be right. There could be something wrong with him.
Maybe he's a doppelganger who wants to devour my frontal lobe or something.
Or maybe- just maybe- everything is exactly as it seems and this is my one and only opportunity to be truly happy.
I think it's worth the risk.
I think that may be worth ANY risk.

In other words, she ignores her Self-Loathing's perfectly reasonable scepticism (who didn't knew it was Nale specifically, but knew that it was NOT Elan - and he acted in such a way that a "people behave oddly from time to time" argument is less plausible than "non-Elan" actually being a doppelganger) and decides to blindly and naively fall into Nale's trap, a trap which wouldn't make her happy and, on the contrary, would have resulted in her DEATH if it wasn't for Elan's dramatic entrance.

Haley wasn't only playing strong before in her life. She was a strong, that is strong-willed, independent, character. Examples:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html steals all the stuff for herself (whether to save her father or not, doesn't matter)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html wants to sneak off from Miko's captivity, which would have saved her a lot of trouble if you ask me. However, gets convinced not to, eventually.

As for the paranoid part, Haley never striked me as paranoid. Can you provide examples? She wasn't trusting towards the Linear Guild, but she had her reasons, and it turned out she was right in the end.

EDIT: "Puppy love" is fitting for teenagers. Haley definately isn't 15 - wasn't she 23? I'll update this after I read the appropriate strip. Anyway, this isn't the first time she had a romantic interest either, so her inexperience isn't an excuse either.
edit's EDIT: 24. Haley's 24. Also, I'd like (love is a strong word) to see her return back to what I consider "strong" characters, while still retaining her relationship with Elan, but I am afraid it isn't very likely to happen.

[Morty]

M0rt, you got me wrong. I don't dislike OOTS because it has only weak female characters - that's untrue, as it both got strong female characters (not only Miko) and I like OOTS a lot. It's just Haley that I dislike.

Yes, I know you only dislike Haley. I was trying to say that while some people may dislike Haley for being "weak" and be justified in doing so, such characters are needed as opposites for strong ones.


You could be right. There could be something wrong with him.
Maybe he's a doppelganger who wants to devour my frontal lobe or something.
Or maybe- just maybe- everything is exactly as it seems and this is my one and only opportunity to be truly happy.
I think it's worth the risk.
I think that may be worth ANY risk.

In other words, she ignores her Self-Loathing's perfectly reasonable scepticism (who didn't knew it was Nale specifically, but knew that it was NOT Elan - and he acted in such a way that a "people behave oddly from time to time" argument is less plausible than "non-Elan" actually being a doppelganger) and decides to blindly and naively fall into Nale's trap, a trap which wouldn't make her happy and, on the contrary, would have resulted in her DEATH if it wasn't for Elan's dramatic entrance.

Self-Loathing's scepticism wasn't reasonable. Just because someone behaves very oddly it doesn't mean it's a threat to your life.


Haley wasn't only playing strong before in her life. She was a strong, that is strong-willed, independent, character. Examples:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html steals all the stuff for herself (whether to save her father or not, doesn't matter)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html wants to sneak off from Miko's captivity, which would have saved her a lot of trouble if you ask me. However, gets convinced not to, eventually.

Playing or not, from her internal dialogue in #382 I got the impression she wasn't quite happy with her life.


As for the paranoid part, Haley never striked me as paranoid. Can you provide examples? She wasn't trusting towards the Linear Guild, but she had her reasons, and it turned out she was right in the end.

:haley: "All of my life, I've been suspicious and distrustful"- #382. That, and the fact that her suspiciousness, mistrust and hiding have caused her aphasia. Not to mention she could've probably been happy with Elan for 100-200 strips earlier if she just came out and told him what's what.
I see where you're coming from, but I think you aren't quite fair for Haley.

[TorJin]

Offtopic, but your English is better than a rather large number of Americans I know.

[Grey Watcher]

It's a curious phenomenon on these boards.... Whoever is taking the most active role in advancing the plot seems to wind up being despised by at least a sizeable minority. It's happened to Miko, Hinjo, Roy, and now Haley. I was almost surprised when Haley took charge that no one posted about how much they hate Haley. But here it is. Oh well.

[Cubey]

Point taken, she was paranoid and distrustful. However, even as her distrustful self she still was in love with Elan - she was very close to admitting her feelings: "I love yo-ukuleles".
Only that she lacked courage to openly tell that to Elan, that single close-to-death situation excluded.

Even so, she could have stated her love towards Elan without having to immediately jump into the "submissive, lust-controlled partner" mindset.

EDIT: GreyWatcher, I disliked Haley for long before the current events happened. I was simply too lazy to explain it to such extent before, and a coincidence that I am writing this just as Haley is the "main plot character". Not related.

[Morty]

Even so, she could have stated her love towards Elan without having to immediately jump into the "submissive, lust-controlled partner" mindset.

Submissive and lust-controlled? You're being too hard on her here. Note that she still tells Elan what to do from time to time and he listens, not to mention other times where she's being decisive, like bluffing her way into war council -which is perfect example of trying to change the events instead of letting them change you. As for lust-controlled - their relationsip is quite like that, but as far as I know, it happens to a "young" couples. By "young" I mean that it lasts for like 2 days now, not their age.

[Spiryt]

I like strong characters. I do not necessarily mean physical strength, but rather a strong and independent will. Haley started as a strong-willed character, just like any other OOTS member, but that changed during the comic's course.



You like strong characters. Sure. Let's assume that Haley is "weak" now (although I don't think so).

So what ? It's her character, she has problems with herself et cetera, blah blah.

She doesn't fit your fauvorite character cliche, but is it a reason to hate her so much to write such long essay :smallconfused: ? I don't get it to well

Nothing important for this thread happens for a long time after the visit to the Oracle, maybe excluding that Haley got owned by a druid's ANIMAL COMPANION with stoneskin on. Invest in a better gear/build, girl!

They're not builds, they're "real" characters. Giant stated few times that they're NOT players behind OotS. So why to you excpect from people to look at themself as a "builds" :smallconfused: Even though they exist in world where rule D&D rules (heh), and they are aware of the fact they are not builds, they can't "build" themself. Sure they can develop their fighting (and other as well) skills on D&D therms. She is shooting bow even though it;s "unoptimal" for rogue in D&D, beacuse she is good at shooting. She can't change it.



Is not cool for me. It looks cool, but then you realise that Belkar, whose build is in theory as bad as Haley's - halfling dual wielding ranger/barbarian as opposed to a RANGED rogue (means sneak attack once per a fight rather than once per round!) with apparently non-magical weapons; faced a much bigger group of hobgoblins and won with no problems, while Haley was in trouble (facing CR 1 creatures!) and almost lost, if not a stroke of luck. Go with the flow Haley, things will always go well in the end.

As I said we cannot think in strict D&d rules. Belkar is obviously best face - to - face killer in OotS, (maybe only Roy was more deadly), even though he has unoptimal build in D&D means.

Haley is good at hiding, stealing, making money and all. Until 131 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) we all though that she is stereotypical greedy rogue (probably trademarked), but she in fact has quite complex character.
She is who she is. She's not "strong" in the way you like, obviously. But what's your point?

[Jukashi]

Not much to offer here, except to add that if Haley has become a bit "weaker", it may be linked to the long period she spent unable to speak. This may sound a little sexist, but in general, communication is more important for women, psychologically, than it is for men. We know Haley prides herself on her smooth-talking abilities; left unable to use them for a long time, a source of self-confidence was lost and, thus, she may remain less confident in herself for some time.

Sadly, the loss of the battle in Azure City, the death of Roy and the failure to save O-chul may increase this effect. I really don't find it suprising that Haley would start needing more support from other people (i.e. Elan, her boyfriend, and Durkon, who got her to take the lead).

So I see this as proper development of character, really. People don't only become stronger, despite what the level-based system may imply.:smalltongue:

[Cubey]

M0rt:
I probably overexaggerated on the submissive part. As for the lust-controlled, I'd like to see her and Elan find a room when they try to make out.
#400 was cute and romantic
#468 was disgusting (okay, it had its "aww" moment", but it was between Daigo and Kazumi). Maybe I'm just a prude :smallconfused:

Spiryt:

You like strong characters. Sure. Let's assume that Haley is "weak" now (although I don't think so).

So what ? It's her character, she has problems with herself et cetera, blah blah.

She doesn't fit your fauvorite character cliche, but is it a reason to hate her so much to write such long essay ? I don't get it to well

Just because she's a (well fleshed-out, I might add) character, doesn't mean I am supposed to like her. I have the same rights to dislike her as pro-Haley people have to like her.
And the length of my OP is not proportional to my dislike of Haley (hate is such a strong word...). I don't dislike her THAT much, I just want to explain in detail why I feel the way I do.


They're not builds, they're "real" characters. Giant stated few times that they're NOT players behind OotS. So why to you excpect from people to look at themself as a "builds" Even though they exist in world where rule D&D rules (heh), and they are aware of the fact they are not builds, they can't "build" themself. Sure they can develop their fighting (and other as well) skills on D&D therms. She is shooting bow even though it;s "unoptimal" for rogue in D&D, beacuse she is good at shooting. She can't change it.

As I said we cannot think in strict D&d rules. Belkar is obviously best face - to - face killer in OotS, (maybe only Roy was more deadly), even though he has unoptimal build in D&D means.
Just because they do not have players behind them, it doesn't mean they look at their own abilities in any less metagaming sense. Belkar and Elan mentioned starting as a bard to V, and then multiclassing into wizard by "retroactively assuming that I looked at your notes over your shoulder". Roy comments on how bad an option Multishot was for one of the bandits he was fighting with at the bandits' camp (the one with the hat), and is told to "optimise his build" by Xykon himself. Besides, Haley can't simply be good at shooting and bad at melee, DnD rules apply to her so at worst she can have a high DEX and low STR, and she used up her feats for things like "Favourite Weapon: Longbow". That doesn't mean she can't use melee, and that small simple step would be enough to increase her combat effectiveness - more sneak attacks with Feinting (Feints are based on Bluff, which Haley has put many ranks into). In fact, any time Haley was melee'ing, she was rather succesful - stabbing Sabine with arrows or sneak attacking Miko with Elan's rapier.

[Krytha]

Well... I don't like Haley either. So there.

[Spiryt]

DnD rules apply to her so at worst she can have a high DEX and low STR, and she used up her feats for things like "Favourite Weapon: Longbow". That doesn't mean she can't use melee, and that small simple step would be enough to increase her combat effectiveness - more sneak attacks with Feinting (Feints are based on Bluff, which Haley has put many ranks into). In fact, any time Haley was melee'ing, she was rather succesful - stabbing Sabine with arrows or sneak attacking Miko with Elan's rapier.

That still doesn't change the fact that she's "real" person. Even if she could find some "simple steps" to improve her combat (feint isn't very good if we talking about it - you are basically waisting your whole action in one round to get one sneak attack in next. With absolutely no guarantee to succed), it's very possible that she won't do them for many reasons - she prefers supporting, melee "isn't what she do", etc. Maybe she's just not battle type like Belkar.
Maybe those are the reasons, why you consider her weak, but I think that "not very strong" is better therm.
Still, of course you have right to dislike her. If you don't like such doubtful characters, she indeed isn't in your type.


dislike her as pro-Haley people have to like her.

To specify: I'm definetly not some "pro - Haley", just your post appeared little strange to me.

If you require all characters to be so strong and though, you also don't like Elan. He has serious problems with doing anything on his own.

[Tengu]

By "strong", Cubey means "strong-willed and independent", not "mechanically optimized", I think. Which Haley used to be but is no longer.

[Siwenna]

I agree with you, for the most part. I don't think Haley "goes with the flow" quite as much as you imply, but she is getting pretty annoying. I was really hoping that once she was with Elan she would go back to her original, strong self- with Elan as a boyfriend. But now it kinda seems that Haley was so strong and independent just because she was afraid of being thought of as weak and hence rejected. After she started her relationship with Elan and sees that he isn't going to reject her, she drops all of her independent side and becomes all clingy.

However I think she is starting to improve. She didn't need to take charge of OOTS. Yes, she was second in command, but she's chaotic, and Durkon would have done a decent job as well. SHe was reasonably quick-thinking when dealing with the MitD as well.


It's like if the Giant was saying that, for a woman, being in a romantic relationship with a guy is a REQUIREMENT to be nice and/or good. Not being in one results in punishment - being portrayed as a total female-canine and quite possibly death.

/OFFTOPIC. Reminder - don't take the offtopic seriously!

Well, I am a feminist, and I was somewhat annoyed by that. The whole relationship thing is a real pet peeve of mine. I hate how it's so often implied that the only real way for people to be happy (male and female alike, but particularly female) is to get married and have lots of babies.

With the OOTS, I saw it as just being expected, particularly for good, happy characters. Sabine is definately evil, but seems pretty happy. Haley, on the other hand, was unhappy about the Elan thing before she lost the ability to speak. Miko, on the other hand is an annoying unhappy b**** who is not in any sort of relationship. Lien is good and apears to be single and not upset about it, but it's pretty obvious that she is a potential HInjo mate.

[Spiryt]

I hate how it's so often implied that the only real way for people to be happy (male and female alike, but particularly female) is to get married and have lots of babies.

Well, I can't see where it's implied in OotS. In fact, if we necessarily MUST seek for some stereotypes, Haley looks more "male" now - she's going for dangerous mission to rescure friend and Elan is shouting: "No it's dangerous". She needed relationship with Elan, beacuse she love him - if it's some kind of weakness, then she is weak but...

[Cubey]

By "strong", Cubey means "strong-willed and independent", not "mechanically optimized", I think. Which Haley used to be but is no longer.

Exactly. Her subpar build, as far as I dislike it, doesn't bother me THAT much. If I disliked people for their builds, I'd be forced to hate all the OOTS and most of the secondary characters.

[Spiryt]

By "strong", Cubey means "strong-willed and independent", not "mechanically optimized", I think. Which Haley used to be but is no longer.

I'm aware of that. But I doubt if she ever was strong willed e.c. By her internal monologues we see that she always had been person, it's not like - DING, Haley took flaw Assertiveness Loss in some moment. Life is pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)

Still if she managed to look indepented, and mask it so well...

It difficult question, is somebody who is playing stron person really strong or not?:smallamused: It's could be playing - but still she was acting quite independently, even if she was playing.

[War]

I'm not a feminist (I'm a guy to start with)Tsk! Who has been spreading this rumor that you have to be female to be a feminist? :smallconfused:

Anyway, interesting rant. I agree with parts and I disagree with parts.

I think you're a little too contemptuous of the idea of "going with the flow". Sure, accepting all circumstances, even when they impair you and even when you could change them, is bad for you. But so is the opposite -- futilely insisting on unattainable, unnecessary change. The serenity to accept the things you can't change comes right after the strength to change what you can, you know? (That wisdom to tell the difference bit also helps.) "Strong" people often need do to learn when to back down.

A lot of Haley's big romance story was focused on the fact that she had huge issues with trusting others because she couldn't accept them or herself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html); she was certain there'd always be some hidden other side that would ruin everything. To get her speech back, it took... not romance, not just a confession, but a situation where she absolutely needed to open up, because the risk of not doing so was clearly much worse. It is odd that it took a reckless mistake to get there. In this instance it paid off well, though realistically I suspect those issues are not all buried. Still, I read it as addressing a specific issue of hers rather than a generalized induction into weakness.

Personally, I tend to find romance the most boring part of nearly any story. So the emo pining and dramatic love confessions were much more annoying to me than the character development. The subsequent teen-esque romance is all right with me; everyone's enthusiastic when they first get a shiny new toy, after all. Eh. I could take or leave Haley during that subplot, but I do like where she's gone since then.

Haley may be sub-optimal in build, but I get the impression she's still tougher than her boyfriend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) even with his shiny new toy. And she's still able to get serious and take command when she needs to. Her combat skills aside, I've really, really liked the way she's taken to her current leadership; she's smart, able to consider and analyze the big picture, and effective at unpleasant chores like keeping Belkar under control (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html), all without simply imitating Roy. (By the way, you said you haven't read the books, so there's a bit from OtOoPCs...) Roy didn't appoint her second-in-command; she basically forced her way into the position and strongarmed the rest of the party into agreeing to it.

There is an unfortunate tendency in a lot of fiction to pair off all the female characters, which does sort of create the impression that girls are just supposed to be in relationships, naturally. Personally, I attribute it to two things -- (traditionally male) writers tend to have more male characters in general, making it, y'know, a lot easier to engage all the ladies; and there's a perception of male as the "default," so female characters' gender comes into play more often. I could be wrong. It's somewhat of a shame that OotS hasn't escaped this trend. But at least the characters and relationships are well-written, and Rich is generally more egalitarian in his portrayals of gender than most (traditionally male) writers.

Fun discussion!

[Pyro]

I don't know, personally I like Haley. I don't thinks shes become weaker either. Many of the examples of a "strong" "independent" seem more self centered and greedy to me. TPAM also has a good point; Haley was probably never as strong willed as she came out to be, and was probably covering that up. Honestly I think all of us are reading into this comic too much. Well anyway congrats on the epic sized posts.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

It's a curious phenomenon on these boards.... Whoever is taking the most active role in advancing the plot seems to wind up being despised by at least a sizeable minority. It's happened to Miko, Hinjo, Roy, and now Haley. I was almost surprised when Haley took charge that no one posted about how much they hate Haley. But here it is. Oh well.

Well, first of all, the characters affect different people in different ways. Some people love a certain character, while others hate the same character, and yet still others couldn't care less about the character. It's because people just react differently to things. I guess when a lot of time is spent on a character, people's feelings about the character surface. We notice what we love/hate about the character more.

I don't think anyone hates Haley, it was just one person saying what his problem was with her. Some people find her weak, and others find her strong. And as for the others:

Miko - People hate her, now there's a surprise. I just couldn't stand how everything was about Miko here in the forums for a while.

Roy - Most of his detractors have said they don't like his arrogance and the way he treats people sometimes. He really was condescending to others. He is still too important to the story not to come back in some form. Maybe he will be a better person for it.

Hinjo - My problem with him is that he never learns from his mistakes. That and the fact he really isn't developed enough for a character that got as much story time as he did. Now unless we are going to learn a lot more about him, I can't see him being in the strip much longer.

Belkar, Xykon, and Redcloak get a lot of hate, but that's what happens when you have characters like them. The OOTS wouldn't be the same without them, but that doesn't mean everyone has to like them.

I'm sure if we see a lot more of Elan, V, and Durkon, people will start posting how they feel about the characters.

I think it's great people have such strong reactions to these characters. It means Rich has done a great job of writing the story. He's getting people to care about them.

[PaladinFreak]

What I really don't understand is why such a large amount of space on this forum is devoted to negativity. I'm not saying that many people's arguments are not well thought out or reasonable, because a lot of them make a lot of sense. I just don't really understand why people feel a need to voice their dislike here, when the only thing that it will result in is arguments.

I could understand saying in, say, a discussion of a particular comic, saying "In this comic, character x did y, and character x's behavior such as this makes me not like them very much", but I don't really see the point of starting a whole new thread just so you can say how much you dislike character x.

[David Argall]

There is an unfortunate tendency in a lot of fiction to pair off all the female characters, which does sort of create the impression that girls are just supposed to be in relationships, naturally. Personally, I attribute it to two things -- (traditionally male) writers tend to have more male characters in general, making it, y'know, a lot easier to engage all the ladies; and there's a perception of male as the "default," so female characters' gender comes into play more often.

The more likely explanation is that this is what the women do want. You read male porn. Joe has his way with Andrea, beds Betty, claims Cathy, and Diane, while Elaine and Felice get it on while waiting their turn. The relationship is physical and short-term. Now we try some female porn, the romance novels women read in droves. In some of them, you can find pages that would rouse a 90-year old greatgrandfather, but Joe and Andrea usually spend scores of pages agonizing over what the other feels and they end up with a permanent relationship, and any sex may happen only after the book is finished.
So no, it is no male misunderstanding that causes female characters to end up in relationships.


, she could have stated her love towards Elan without having to immediately jump into the "submissive, lust-controlled partner" mindset.
Haley submissive? You seem to be reading a lot into one moment when Haley was too scared to really say yes or no. [with good reason of course. She risked being along and pregnant 6 months later. On which point.. ]

It is quite possible Elan would deem it a happy ending if he successfully rescued Haley & their child from some horror even if he died in the attempt. Haley would likely have a different opinion, but the prophet didn't promise anybody else the happy ending.

Now Haley has been dependant on Elan, but what do you expect of a mother with a baby boy? That the boy is 6' and helping her wear out a matress doesn't change that she is the boss and makes all the decisions.

I just don't see much difference in her at all.

[Morty]

I probably overexaggerated on the submissive part. As for the lust-controlled, I'd like to see her and Elan find a room when they try to make out.
#400 was cute and romantic
#468 was disgusting (okay, it had its "aww" moment", but it was between Daigo and Kazumi). Maybe I'm just a prude

Finding a room would be quite hard in that circumstances. And again, it may have been a bit too forward for them, but I don't personally blame them.


Well, I am a feminist, and I was somewhat annoyed by that. The whole relationship thing is a real pet peeve of mine. I hate how it's so often implied that the only real way for people to be happy (male and female alike, but particularly female) is to get married and have lots of babies.

As much as I dislike that trend too, it doesn't have anything to do with Haley&Elan. By now, nothing implies their relationship is going to be like that.
Going back to the "weak" argument" I don't think that you can name someone who's currently leading OoTS "weak-willed and dependant". She's been telling Hinjo what to do, after all. She haven't really changed much over the course of the strip, except becoming less greedy and self-centered. Overall, while I see that some people my be annoyed of Haley's rommance, I really don't think she's become any less strong-willed and independent.
I won't join the argument about Haley's build effectiveness, because it's utterly pointless. I honestly don't know how people can even care about character optimization in comic strip.

[War]

The more likely explanation is that this is what the women do want. You read male porn. Joe has his way with Andrea, beds Betty, claims Cathy, and Diane, while Elaine and Felice get it on while waiting their turn. The relationship is physical and short-term. Now we try some female porn, the romance novels women read in droves. In some of them, you can find pages that would rouse a 90-year old greatgrandfather, but Joe and Andrea usually spend scores of pages agonizing over what the other feels and they end up with a permanent relationship, and any sex may happen only after the book is finished.
So no, it is no male misunderstanding that causes female characters to end up in relationships.Ahaha, yes. The perception that women are more interested in romance, which is true a lot of the time, especially since women also tend (for whichever reasons) to be more emotionally oriented. It was downright silly of me to overlook that; thanks for catching me. Still, I sure ain't believing that authorial bias doesn't contribute at all. Romance isn't anywhere near restricted to romance novels (a lot of which really do get pretty damn steamy before the end) after all; not all women care about romance, and not everything written to men is porn. Some adherence to trends is fine, though; it's only a problem when it starts to look like exceptions can never exist peacefully.
What I really don't understand is why such a large amount of space on this forum is devoted to negativity. I'm not saying that many people's arguments are not well thought out or reasonable, because a lot of them make a lot of sense. I just don't really understand why people feel a need to voice their dislike here, when the only thing that it will result in is arguments.Because discussion is fun! I, for one, am always very interested in what makes given bits of writing work or not work for various people. Anyway, this place would be really boring if everyone agreed.

[Magioth]

hes not saying your need to be in a relationship to be good, hes saying if you good/nice your going to be in a relationship

[U2QueenBee]

The more likely explanation is that this is what the women do want. You read male porn. Joe has his way with Andrea, beds Betty, claims Cathy, and Diane, while Elaine and Felice get it on while waiting their turn. The relationship is physical and short-term. Now we try some female porn, the romance novels women read in droves. In some of them, you can find pages that would rouse a 90-year old greatgrandfather, but Joe and Andrea usually spend scores of pages agonizing over what the other feels and they end up with a permanent relationship, and any sex may happen only after the book is finished.
So no, it is no male misunderstanding that causes female characters to end up in relationships.

One thing you don't seem to have considered is how much books/films that follow this model may have influenced women and girls. If you're brought up on a diet of 'fairy tale' romance and stories where emotional connection and 'traditional' romantic roles are set as the norm or the ideal, that is definitely going to socialise you into thinking this is the 'right' way to be. Toys, books, magazines, television, films...so many things are relentlessy targetted at either men or women and on emphasising the difference between the two, rather than just being for people, generally.

I'm sure things have changed since I was little, but I can remember being as young as 5 or 6 and already having grasped that as a women, my ultimate goal was supposed to be getting married. Wanting to study science and be single (neither of which I did, fair enough!) made people think I was 'weird'. But it takes a bit of growing up to realise that Superman and Prince Charming aren't going to come and save you and you have to just tough it out yourself, because you're told that story enough at an impressionable age that you start to believe it.

Go into a toy store and find the 'pink' aisle - most of the toys pushed at girls teach them that their primary function in the world is to be a good mommy and make themselves pretty to catch a man. The emphasis is strongly on maternity and personal grooming. I remember feeling 'weird' because I wanted a toy car instead of dolls, and worrying that I wasn't 'supposed' to have them because they were for boys. Likewise, my sister has recently had a baby and I know that she would be uncomfortable if her son started wanting to play with Barbies or My Little Pony. But why? Because toys reinforce our ideas about how men and women should act.

I'm probably just ranting now (this is a hot-button issue for me) but I guess you can see my point. Yes, cheesy romance novels are big sellers with women; but there is definitely a 'chicken and egg' aspect to it as well, I should think. The books reinforce the ideas that people already were given from other books, etc. etc., so it feeds on itself.

[O.T.R]

I'm probably just ranting now (this is a hot-button issue for me) but I guess you can see my point. Yes, cheesy romance novels are big sellers with women; but there is definitely a 'chicken and egg' aspect to it as well, I should think. The books reinforce the ideas that people already were given from other books, etc. etc., so it feeds on itself.

And by the time we're old enough to realise this it's already too late?

I don't mind the Haley-Elan pairing, as long as it doesn't dip into the catalogue of relationship cliches:

Everything Is Perfect And It Will Be That Forever Whoops One Of Them Died.
He/She Has Trouble Giving Him/Her Space.
He/She Is Tempted By Someone Else
He/She Is Paranoid Of Him/Her Finding Someone Else
They Think They Love Each Other But Given Their Temperamental Differences How Will They Ever Truely Connect?

But I trust the Giant to let in fresh air on such a relationship, or at least parody the hell out of these cliches.

[Kish]

I have just two rather peripheral things to say here, really. First...


Tsk! Who has been spreading this rumor that you have to be female to be a feminist? :smallconfused:


Thank you, War. I was thinking I would need to post that.

The other thing that confuses me is the idea that being a ranged weapon rogue means Haley can only sneak attack once per battle.

[Cubey]

Wow, quite many replies while I was asleep!
So, to people who ask - "why the negativity, why bring this topic up?", I have an answer:
Because discussion is FUN!
(at least as long as everyone stays civil)

I find the point that Haley needs a lot of attention from others (read: Elan) because the situation they're in is very stressful and anyone else would need support in that situation too to be very interesting and likely. It also puts a hole in my theories, but, oh well. At least I can still make oversized sentences, like the one above.


hes not saying your need to be in a relationship to be good, hes saying if you good/nice your going to be in a relationship
Actually, I did say that you need to be in a relationship to be good. But I didn't say that part seriously, it's as easy to prove that OOTS is sexist as it is to prove that it's pro-communist/racist/anti-goblin/etc.

However, many people picked up that topic. Hmm, maybe there is something in it after all.


Tsk! Who has been spreading this rumor that you have to be female to be a feminist?
Oh fine. I am neither feminist nor female. Sounds more neutral now.


The other thing that confuses me is the idea that being a ranged weapon rogue means Haley can only sneak attack once per battle.
That's because you can sneak attack enemies who are:
-Flat-footed
OR
-Being flanked by YOU

You cannot flank while being away from your opponent. Also, Flat-footed is a somewhat rare condition, that mainly appears at the start of the fight, because opponents who didn't move yet are Flat-footed.
But aside from that, Flat-footed enemies are those who are performing some of the non-combat actions like climbing (not going to happen 99% of the time), are paralysed or otherwise helpless (when you don't need Sneak Attack to finish them off), or those who have been Feinted - they count as Flat Footed for your next melee attack. Feint is a standard action, but with Improved Feint it's ONLY a move action - you can feint and sneak attack in the same round.

Long post, but as I said - ineffectiveness of Haley's ranged sneak-attackiness is only a MINOR issue for me. It wouldn't be fun if everyone in OOTS was reeking of cheese, like the half-ogre Roy faced.

[SPoD]

I think the mistake that you're making is thinking that Haley was strong-willed before. She wasn't; she was fooling the world into thinking that she was while her inner turmoil tore her up. She was constantly lying and putting on a face that wasn't the real her. As it turns out, she was also fooling us, the readers, because we didn't know what was going on inside her head. But the fact is, in her discussions with her Self-Loathing, it's clear that she has not been happy with her life for some time. Her current level of strong-willedness may be a step down from the charade that her entire life was before, but it is actually several steps UP from the reality of what she was really feeling.

Maybe a numeric example will help. If there were Strong-Will Points, at the start of the comic, you might say she looked like she had 100 points, but really had 20. After breaking her aphasia, she looks like she has 50 and actually HAS 50, because she's not putting on a show anymore. So to you, it looks like she has become weak willed, when in reality, she is more in control of her destiny than before, because she's not caught up in need to lie to everyone.

----------

On an unrelated tangent: Why does everyone want to pair Lien off with Hinjo? There have been no hints that this is even a possibility; for all we know, both Hinjo and Lien are gay! You can't assail Rich for pairing off every female character in the same post as saying, "And I assume that Lien will be paired off, too." She's been in like 10 strips, and only one had any background on her at all. At least leave her out of it, since you're just inventing something and blaming it on Rich.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

I think the mistake that you're making is thinking that Haley was strong-willed before. She wasn't; she was fooling the world into thinking that she was while her inner turmoil tore her up. She was constantly lying and putting on a face that wasn't the real her. As it turns out, she was also fooling us, the readers, because we didn't know what was going on inside her head. But the fact is, in her discussions with her Self-Loathing, it's clear that she has not been happy with her life for some time. Her current level of strong-willedness may be a step down from the charade that her entire life was before, but it is actually several steps UP from the reality of what she was really feeling.

Maybe a numeric example will help. If there were Strong-Will Points, at the start of the comic, you might say she looked like she had 100 points, but really had 20. After breaking her aphasia, she looks like she has 50 and actually HAS 50, because she's not putting on a show anymore. So to you, it looks like she has become weak willed, when in reality, she is more in control of her destiny than before, because she's not caught up in need to lie to everyone.

----------

On an unrelated tangent: Why does everyone want to pair Lien off with Hinjo? There have been no hints that this is even a possibility; for all we know, both Hinjo and Lien are gay! You can't assail Rich for pairing off every female character in the same post as saying, "And I assume that Lien will be paired off, too." She's been in like 10 strips, and only one had any background on her at all. At least leave her out of it, since you're just inventing something and blaming it on Rich.

As I said before, I don't care if these two hook up or not. It's just very boring and predictable.

Hinjo is simply the "good paladin", the foil to Miko. But she's not around anymore, so he no longer serves that purpose.

It just looks like Lien was meant to be nothing more than Hinjo's love interest. That's my problem with female characters. They only exist as props for the male characters.

for all we know, both Hinjo and Lien are gay!

Now that I wouldn't mind seeing. :smalltongue:

Kazumi and Daigo are more interesting than these two.


What I really don't understand is why such a large amount of space on this forum is devoted to negativity. I'm not saying that many people's arguments are not well thought out or reasonable, because a lot of them make a lot of sense. I just don't really understand why people feel a need to voice their dislike here, when the only thing that it will result in is arguments.

I could understand saying in, say, a discussion of a particular comic, saying "In this comic, character x did y, and character x's behavior such as this makes me not like them very much", but I don't really see the point of starting a whole new thread just so you can say how much you dislike character x.

There are only two "negative" threads. All the others were just discussing different parts of the comic.

I think some of us just want to express all of our feelings about the comic. It provokes all sorts of emotions, both positive and negative. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't love the comic.

[SPoD]

It's like if the Giant was saying that, for a woman, being in a romantic relationship with a guy is a REQUIREMENT to be nice and/or good. Not being in one results in punishment - being portrayed as a total female-canine and quite possibly death.

I think you're wrong; I think the Giant is actually saying that being in a relationship is a normal (possibly naturally-occurring) part of being a Good Person for BOTH genders. It's just that we're accustomed to seeing exactly the sort of sexism you're talking about, so we don't look at the male characters the same way. However, the only male protagonists who are NOT in a relationship are Durkon and Hinjo, and the only antagonists who ARE in a relationship are Nale and Sabine. And in Durkon's case, we've seen him give up the possibility of a relationship with Hilgya in order to preserve his honor (since she's married).

Look at Roy and Celia; Celia is a minor character that didn't need to ever recur in the strip. She obviously came back so that Roy could have someone to hook up with. It's disingenuous to say that Rich needed to pair her off with Roy, because she wasn't important to the strip at all. He didn't "need" to do anything with her. Further, when Celia flew off in Dungeon of Dorukan to go back with her boyfriend, she was already in a relationship. If Rich only needed to pair off his female characters, she could have still been in that off-screen relationship when she reappeared during the trial. But she wasn't. Because Rich needed someone to pair Roy up with, and chose an existing character for ease.

Here's my real evidence, but it's a spoiler for Start of Darkness:

Right-Eye goes off and finds a goblin girl to marry and have a family with. When Redcloak catches up with him, he's torn between settling down with a wife and raising little goblins (the Good option) or continuing his plan to release the Snarl (the Bad option). It's very, very clear in the book that settling down was the Right Choice, and Redcloak is about to choose it when the personification of Evil, Xykon, shows up and pulls him away from it. In this case, the female character isn't really the point, because the book is solely about the two goblin brothers, so Rich is saying that even for a male, the right choice is to settle down in a stable relationship.

And if Rich IS saying that being in a relationship is an inherent part of being a good person of either gender, that's not sexist. You can disagree with it, but it's not sexist.

[SPoD]

As I said before, I don't care if these two hook up or not. It's just very boring and predictable.

*sigh* You can't say something is predictable unless it actually turns out the way you predicted! The character has just been introduced, she may die next strip for all we know!


It just looks like Lien was meant to be nothing more than Hinjo's love interest.

Only because you have decided that she is. Give me three things from the comic that prove that there is any potential for a relationship between the two, and I'll reconsider.


That's my problem with female characters. They only exist as props for the male characters.

It seems like it's more a problem with you reading stuff into the comic that isn't there.

[Ryngard]

This is not a flame/slam...

I HATE analyzations like this. Why can't it just be what it is? Why does every decision have to have some ulterior motive relating to objectifying somebody?

Jerry O'Connell was in college and they were analyzing Stand By Me (he was "the fat kid") and the Professor and students had a whole discussion about how he was feeling and what it meant when he did X... and he said, "Umm... no... I was just tired that day and thinking of playing" or somethng like that.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting... its just... I dunno I want the last 15 minutes of my life back from reading this thread. :)

[BelkarPwnsAll!]

Booooooooo! Haley U Sux!!!! Ur Too Weak To Be In The Comics! Boooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

[Cubey]

Booooooooo! Haley U Sux!!!! Ur Too Weak To Be In The Comics! Boooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Wow, talk about constructive criticism!


This is not a flame/slam...

I HATE analyzations like this. Why can't it just be what it is? Why does every decision have to have some ulterior motive relating to objectifying somebody?

I consider such analysations to be very tasty brain-food, whether someone agrees with the original theory or not. One of my favourite OOTS-related threads so far was the one analysing Miko and why she acts the way she does.


I think you're wrong; I think the Giant is actually saying that being in a relationship is a normal (possibly naturally-occurring) part of being a Good Person for BOTH genders. It's just that we're accustomed to seeing exactly the sort of sexism you're talking about, so we don't look at the male characters the same way.

That's why I said not to take the offtopic part seriously.:smallwink:


EDIT: If anything else, this thread helped me become an Orc in the Playground. Cheers!

[Oxymoron]

Cubey, here`s some fatherly advice. You apologize too much. Make a stand and if everyone thinks you`re being a sexist, let them. When they flame you, just explain yourself better in the next post. Trust me, you will sound more confident.

Anyway, I must agree that Haley lost some of her popularity during her cryptogram period, but come on. She just found love for the first time in her life. Let her be a bit clingy and dependent. She is still the strong one in the relationship, and the story is far from over. She still has to break out her father from prison, and Elan has to face his own father (most likely the evil Lord Tyrinar, capturer of Haleys father). If that isn`t going to put som strain on their relationship, nothing will. And she still has a lot of secrets up her sleeve. Being Sabines opposite, I still think she may be a half-dragon, with her coppery red hair and compulsive love for gold.

[Cubey]

Cubey, here`s some fatherly advice. You apologize too much. Make a stand and if everyone thinks you`re being a sexist, let them. When they flame you, just explain yourself better in the next post. Trust me, you will sound more confident.

Do I? Believe not. There is a difference between apologising for your opinions (which I do NOT) and accepting logical arguments/points from other people. Also note that while I agree with some other posters' points, I consider my original theory STILL (mostly) valid.

On-topic, I forgot to answer this:

Maybe a numeric example will help. If there were Strong-Will Points, at the start of the comic, you might say she looked like she had 100 points, but really had 20. After breaking her aphasia, she looks like she has 50 and actually HAS 50, because she's not putting on a show anymore. So to you, it looks like she has become weak willed, when in reality, she is more in control of her destiny than before, because she's not caught up in need to lie to everyone.
A well-thought point. But, we have no idea how exactly Haley was like when she was "acting tough". While it is likely that she wasn't as strong as she appeared to be, I still believe she was tougher these days than she is at the current comics.

[kenjigoku]

(feint isn't very good if we talking about it - you are basically waisting your whole action in one round to get one sneak attack in next. With absolutely no guarantee to succed)

(Combat Expertise, Improved Feign make this a much more logical choice, and seeing as Haley has a rather impressive bluff skill that would make it quite possible for her to use. Also since she uses ranged attacks she won't need to move much in the first place)

[David Argall]

One thing you don't seem to have considered is how much books/films that follow this model may have influenced women and girls. Toys, books, magazines, television, films...so many things are relentlessy targetted at either men or women and on emphasising the difference between the two, rather than just being for people, generally.
While such things are not without effect, they are normally followers rather than leaders. Cliches and stereotypes exist because there is an element of truth to them.
The merchant selling Suzie a doll and Joey a gun doesn't care beans about who plays with which. He does care about making money, and that means offering the right toy to the right kid, who will then threaten to hate Mom forever if she doesn't buy it. It is Suzie's and Joey's decisions that created boy and girl aisles and stocked the dolls on the girl aisle. That can be rough on those of us in the minority, but it is no grand conspiracy.


I remember feeling 'weird' because I wanted a toy car instead of dolls, and worrying that I wasn't 'supposed' to have them because they were for boys.
Since we are on the personal example mode, I'll note I insisted on a doll for Christmas one year. The thing had the special feature of being able to pee -what that says about the sanity of any and everyone involved I'll pass over- and in the long run I ended up using it more as a brand X watergun than I did as a doll.
This sort of thing happened to a lot of feminist mothers of a generation or so back. They were not going have their children be trapped in "culturally imposed" gender roles and gave their kids toys that defied the stereotype choice. They quickly found that if they gave their daughter a gun, she would cuddle it and when they gave the boy the doll, he would hit somebody with it.


there is definitely a 'chicken and egg' aspect to it as well, I should think. The books reinforce the ideas that people already were given from other books, etc. etc., so it feeds on itself.
This wheel spins because we give it constant shoves. People do do a lot of things because everybody does it, but there are generally good reasons why everybody does them, even if most people have forgotten or never learned what those reasons were.
It can be rough to be the one who does not fit the mold, but we have to learn to live with it and accept that in some ways we are not of the common herd.

[Iranon]

The analysis of female characters in the comic really enlightened me.
Miko was meant to have no role beyond being Roy's love interested, and she even screwed that up. Boy, did she suck.

[War]

hes not saying your need to be in a relationship to be good, hes saying if you good/nice your going to be in a relationshipI'm guessing you didn't mean it this way, but I hope you realize that, the way you said it, those are the same thing.
This wheel spins because we give it constant shoves. People do do a lot of things because everybody does it, but there are generally good reasons why everybody does them, even if most people have forgotten or never learned what those reasons were.
It can be rough to be the one who does not fit the mold, but we have to learn to live with it and accept that in some ways we are not of the common herd.Yes. And that goes both ways. In an ideal world, nobody would believe that being an exception makes one wrong and inadequate. This isn't an ideal world and likely never will be, and there's only so much any individual can do about it, but there's no reason not to try and be aware of it. Anything that glorifies the status quo to the exclusion of variation ought to be criticized, analyzed, and questioned.

Also, there may very well be perfectly valid origins to something like the nature of girl toys vs boy toys (although any childhood play was originally supposed to be practice for adult roles) but it's naive to think the toy companies don't encourage it. They want the groups they market to to have strong preferences, after all, and advertising has become a ridiculously powerful force. After a point, it becomes near impossible to separate exactly what is nature and what is impressed by society. I don't think it's safe to just brush everything off as one or the other.


Anyway, as for the on-topic portion of tonight's programming...
A well-thought point. But, we have no idea how exactly Haley was like when she was "acting tough". While it is likely that she wasn't as strong as she appeared to be, I still believe she was tougher these days than she is at the current comics.Maybe. While the points thing was a useful way of illustrating it, I don't think it's really a black-and-white "weaker" vs "less weak". It's true that we didn't see the full extent of her internal workings before, so we can't say definitively how much she was putting on an act. But the fact that weakness existed, at least, was implied and discussed, especially the trust issues I talked about before. So she got one particular example that helped to counterbalance one of her particular weaknesses, the one we readers knew most about. And I sincerely doubt that one dramatic arc banished all of Haley's problems anyway. More likely, the appearance and the reality have been brought a bit closer to each other. There's definitely more coming on that front.

The analysis of female characters in the comic really enlightened me.
Miko was meant to have no role beyond being Roy's love interested, and she even screwed that up. Boy, did she suck.:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

In case you didn't notice the other person who said it: Roy didn't assign Haley to be 2nd-in-command. She maneuvered her way into that assignment.

And as far as criticizing her build ... as someone else said, all of the OOTS builds suck, except maybe Durkon's. (And even he could be improved by dumping the shield in favor of a bigger hammer.) At least if you're analyzing them in terms of real D&D optimization. But OOTS doesn't use real D&D optimization much (beyond a couple comments about, for example, how powerful Druids are).

Your comparison of Haley's combat power with Belkar's is especially silly. First, Haley was out of her element; Belkar is supposed to be in charge in an open melee situation against tons of mooks, Haley is not (archers are supposed to be in the back and protected).

Second, even if TWF (dagger) rangers are weak in real D&D, Belkar is NOT a weak melee build in the story. The Giant on these Forums has actually confirmed that "Belkar is a very effective melee combatant."

[Tengu]

It's amusing that no matter how many times Cubey will post things like this:


Long post, but as I said - ineffectiveness of Haley's ranged sneak-attackiness is only a MINOR issue for me. It wouldn't be fun if everyone in OOTS was reeking of cheese, like the half-ogre Roy faced.
some people will still assume that he dislikes Haley mostly because she's not optimized.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

*sigh* You can't say something is predictable unless it actually turns out the way you predicted! The character has just been introduced, she may die next strip for all we know!

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Many other people called it when she first appeared.


Only because you have decided that she is. Give me three things from the comic that prove that there is any potential for a relationship between the two, and I'll reconsider.

1. She's the only other paladin around. They now have common ground.
2. She's female.
3. Lately Rich has been pairing off everyone, even the minor characters. Why would Hinjo be left out?

While this might not prove anything, and they might not end up together after all, but these are just things that tell me how this will work out. Plus, there is nothing from the comic to show there couldn't be a romantic relationship between them.


It seems like it's more a problem with you reading stuff into the comic that isn't there.

Yeah, but what other purpose does she have? Is she going to join the OOTS? I doubt it. Is she going to be yet another dead paladin? Possibly. Will she join Hinjo in looking for the other paladins? I think so. But then again, I could very well be wrong. I've been wrong about the comic before.

[Aris Katsaris]

A well-thought point. But, we have no idea how exactly Haley was like when she was "acting tough".

Um, except that we kinda do.


While it is likely that she wasn't as strong as she appeared to be, I still believe she was tougher these days than she is at the current comics.

I don't understand your definition of "tough" at all. Haley of a-while-ago was making up ridiculous lies about being in love with ukuleles because she was terrified of letting Elan know about how she felt. She was getting angry to Elan and refusing to explain to him about her reasons for it.

These are things that we know of, for facts, not just our interpretations of scenes (like accusations of "clinginess" which to me is a very abstract and bizarre complaint to me, as it was Haley who deliberately chose to separate herself from Elan back here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), and it was Elan who was protesting vehemently at the idea).

Anyway, if those things of a-while-ago comprises part of your definition of "toughness" and her present actions represent weakness, then toughness and weakness have the exact opposite meanings for me than they have for you.

[Impikmin]

Aww, it's too bad you think about Haley this way:smallfrown: I don't agree with a lot of things you say, and I think you make a lot of points that I believe are misinterpreted. Also, I think you expect too much from Haley, who is taking command and doing things she isn't really up for, which I think takes a lot of will power. "Going with the flow" is hard to do, and she shows it. She only does it because SHE KNOWS IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Like when Hinjo had to stand down and run away, that wasn't weak. It took a strong man to leave his city in such distress. He wasn't going with the flow, he was doing the smartest thing, which takes a lot of self control and maturity.

What I'm trying to say is that while following what everyone else tells you too can be because of your own weakness and hopefulness (unless you're some evil overlord with the "hope and trust makes you [humans] weak" cliche) following orders/judgements that are in your, and your friends, best interests, is usually considered a brave act in places where this is common, like the army.

As for her attachment to Elan, I think this was mostly put in the comic just for a good love story anyways. Sure, they show great affection for each other, but it's not like they settled down and she's staying home taking care of the kids waiting for daddy to bring home the bacon or anything! Right now, we just haven't had time to see any seriousness between them, and the affection comes from the fact that they are in an extremely dangerous situation and Haley (as seen in 417) wants to make sure Elan knows how much she loves him before one of them might die (which didn't happen, but it could have).

I may be focusing on small parts of your thread and blowing them out of proportion, and for that I apologize. But Haley's a good gal and has been through a lot in life, and I think she deserves more respect.:smalltongue: I hope my 2 cents might make you like Haley, and the comic as a whole, just a bit more:smallbiggrin:

[Vincentrose91]

Haley is a great gal i agree. And isnt it nice to have a little romance in the strip? i may be biased, as i played a bard identical to Elan before i even read the strip lol.

in conclusion :elan: + :haley: = AWESOME

GO ELAN YOU STUD! just love the comic, that is the only choice.

[deworde]

Did you notice that in OOTS, from all the important (read: have names. Excludes Scribbles part - that's history, and the books - because I didn't read them) female characters, all the ones you could consider protagonists are in a developing or fully established romantic relationship?
Haley - Elan
Celia - Roy
Kazumi - Daigo
Lien - Hinjo (well, this one's more subtle and MIGHT be untrue)
V's gender is unknown, but it IS married after all


Did you notice that in OOTS, from all the important (read: have names. Excludes Scribbles part - that's history, and the books - because I didn't read them) male characters, all the ones you could consider remotely sane are in a developing or fully established romantic relationship?

Elan - Haley
Roy - Celia
Daigo - Kazumi
Hinjo - Lien(well, this one's more subtle and MIGHT be untrue)
V's gender is unknown, but it IS married after all

By the way, you missed out several key protagonists, and ignored several obvious gaping holes.

Your chief objection seems to be that people who are obnoxious and show little or no thought for the feelings of others tend not to form stable long-lasting relationships, while attractive, funny, intelligent women tend to get the guys they want... To quote Scrubs, "Here you've put me in a tough situation: I can't honestly decide whether to say, "Duh," uh, "Doy," or a very sarcastic, "Oh, really?""

[Vuzzmop]

Offtopic, but your English is better than a rather large number of Americans I know.

Amen. (stupid ten letter minimum).