possibly found that prestige classes that progress spellcasting are spellcasting clas

[death390]

i have found several prestige classes that progress spellcasting with specific wording that logically states they are "spellcasting class"

from the DMG thaumaturge prestige class. My emphasis.

Spells per Day: When a new thaumaturgist level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a thaumaturgist, he must decide to which class he adds each level of thaumaturgist for the purpose of determining spells per day.

other classes with similar wording (and the same emphasized point) include dweomerkeeper contemplative divine oracle tainted sorcerer seeker of the misty isle sacred fist and nightcloak.

logically the bold text means at the very least these classes are spellcasting classes, at best that means all prestige classes that progress spellcasting are spellcasting classes. this also means they are a valid target for other prestige class spellcasting progression.

the books that these classes are from inlcude the Dungeon masters guide, unearthed arcana, and complete divine (most in CD)

[Anthrowhale]

This seems ambiguous --- "other spellcasting class" could just be meant as a short form of "other class which has spellcasting" depending on whether 'other' modifies 'spellcasting class' or 'class'.

There are also no rules to determine whether the Thaumaturge is a divine/arcane/spontaneous/prepared class which makes using a +1 spellcasting prestige class to advance Thaumaturge require a permissive DM that makes up the appropriate rules. If you want to assume a "make up the rules for you" DM pretty much anything is possible anyways.

[Ashtagon]

The fact that these are spellcasting classes has never been in serious dispute, nor has the idea that prestige classes that progress a spellcasting class could be used to progress these classes. The big issue has always been the divide-by-zero state that occurs if one of these classes is progressed in such a manner and then further levels are taken in the class, resulting in the effective number of levels in these classes exceeding the maximum level that exists for the class (a state which under the ELH should not be possible).

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't even see how reading the rules this way changes anything mechanically, unless you're going to argue that you can use a "+1 spellcasting" prestige class to advance a dual advancement class like Mystic Theurge. Please don't make that argument; it wouldn't end well for anyone.

[death390]

i always make that argument. mystic theurge is s spellcasting class, thus can be advanced by other classes that advance spellcasting class.

[logic_error]

Mystic theurge is NOT a spellcasting base class. In fact, it does not even supply you a spell list, which I think is a crucial point. I would read the rules as an advance in the BASE class that supplies the spell list. So other prestige classes that actually give you a spell list would in fact be valid progression in these terms.

EDIT: For Theurge you still might advance the Caster Level appropriately though without any other benefit to the spell list or casting allotment.

[Anthrowhale]

i always make that argument. mystic theurge is s spellcasting class, thus can be advanced by other classes that advance spellcasting class.

This is a likely-to-lose low-op argument.

If your goal is spell slots, at modest levels where theurging becomes a thing you'll probably be more happy learning to use spell slots more wisely.

If your goal is spell access, learn to love the archivist instead. It's hard to beat access to every spell in the game.

If you goal is class features, look up the Mind Mage or the Ultimate Magus instead.

About the only thing I consider theurgic classes for is caster level optimization of individual schools via Theurgic Specialist or Psiotheurge. That's ok, but you'll probably win an argument to use Red Wizard or Hathran more often than you win this argument.

[death390]

I am not disagreeing that Mystic Theurge is not a Spellcasting Base class but it IS a Spellcasting class, it has the ability "Spells Per Day" it is a Progression Spellcasting Class. i am not even trying to break the system by stacking dual casting classes. i just want the dual casting classes to actualy be worth taking. with no abilities and standard entry it is beyond worthless due to losing so much progression, First rule of Character building, DO NOT LOSE MORE THAN 2 SPELLCASTING PROGRESSION WHEN BUILDING A CASTER! why? spontaneous caster don't get 9s and prepared casters barely get them at lvl 20.

hell when progressing a spellcasting class you don't get the class features. meaning that if you progress a dual casting class like arcane heirophant you don't get the animal companion/familiar boost, ect ect. the point of upgrading a dual casting progression is to replace the class features that you don't want/ can't use with features that you can actually use!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Absolutely flawed.

"This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

Wizard/Cleric/MT

Determine Cleric caster level: Adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class (Wizard) the character has.

Determine Wizard caster level: Adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class (Cleric) the character has.

There is never a situation where MT is presumed to be referring to itself as a spellcasting class, because it isn't one.

A given class must have its own spells/day progression and its own class spell list (or state that it uses another class's spell list) to be a spellcasting class. MT has neither of those things, and no intentional misreading of the rules will change that.

[death390]

There is NO PRINTED definition of "spellcasting CLASS" in any first party source, hell only thing i found close was the rules compendium on spontaneous spellcasting class AND that is deeply flawed (if nothing else says spontaneous casting classes cannot gain spells from any source outside of leveling up. page 139).

the few tables i have always played at have defined spellcasting class to have at least one of these class features: spells per day, spellcasting, or spells.

this thread was made for the express purpose of talking about the phrasing found in 8 prestige classes that use the terms "Other Spellcasting Class" when talking about their progression. because logicaly when it talks about a singlular spellcasting class, transitions to the phrase "Other Spellcasting Class", then follows it up with talking about having multiple spellcasting classes. it logically dictates that the Class itself is a "Spellcasting Class" due to the Othere term in the specified phrase not being in the multiple spellcasting classes section.

Of those 8 prestige classes one of them is from the Dungeon Masters guide, which means it is apart of the minimum core rulebooks.

this means that your statement of "A given class must have its own spells/day progression and its own class spell list (or state that it uses another class's spell list) to be a spellcasting class. MT has neither of those things, and no intentional misreading of the rules will change that. " is your interperetation of the rules, based on What printed source since as stated there is no printed definition of "spellcasting Class".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mystic Theurge has no spellcasting of its own, thus it is not a spellcasting class. Every spellcasting class has a "Spells" class feature that starts with something like, "A [class] casts [arcane/divine] spells, which are drawn from the [class] spell list..."

A Mystic Theurge has no such class feature, the class does not grant a character the ability to cast spells, it's not a spellcasting class. There's absolutely zero RAW support for it being a spellcasting class.

[death390]

But mystic theurge does have spellcasting, it literaly has the class feature SPELLS PER DAY. in that class feature it acts as an Adder to the selected Class: arcane spellcaster +1, and Class: divine spellcaster +1. this is its spellcasting, when you add to a spellcasting class you are adding the equivilent of a level to all of their features that improve spellcasting, this includes spellbook, prayrbook, spells, spells known, spells per day, spellcasting, and probably others i have missed.

of the listed improvements mystic theurge has spells per day and thus is a spellcaster. when you improve the mystic theurge's spellcasting you improve the feature known as "spells per day".

hell multiple prestige classes have a literal class feature "Spellcasting" yet they are not a "spellcasting class"? for petes sake it is literaly part of thier abilities. theres a ton of them in Complete mage.

[Grim Reader]

Mystic Theurge has no spellcasting of its own, thus it is not a spellcasting class. Every spellcasting class has a "Spells" class feature that starts with something like, "A [class] casts [arcane/divine] spells, which are drawn from the [class] spell list..."

A Mystic Theurge has no such class feature, the class does not grant a character the ability to cast spells, it's not a spellcasting class. There's absolutely zero RAW support for it being a spellcasting class.

This really. Also note that text trumphs table, and the text is not "+1 to existing spellcasting class"

Treating classes that progress spellcasting as spellcasing classes aso leads to an unholy rules mess.

[death390]

The fact it leads to as you put it "an unholy mess" is a null point in a RAW argument.

and the text for the mystic Theurge class feature reads.

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

so it Add the level of Mystic Theurge to the level of one Arcane Spellcasting Class and one Divine Spellcasting Class.

well guess what the Ultimate Magus Prestige class is an Arcane prestige class that has the Text

Class Features

Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

it has a literal class feature known as spellcasting. IT IS A SPELLCASTER, It ONLY progresses arcane spellcasting. it is an Arcane Spellcasting Class. thus is a valid target for Mystic theurge. obviously this is a powergaming move but almost every prestige class in Complete Mage has the entry Spellcasting: as a class feature they are all spellcasting classes.

the fact of the matter is that unless there is a first party source the explicity defines what a spellcasting class is we have to interpret what a "spellcasting class" is. Spellcaster is defined as is Spontaneous Spellcaster (alebit this one poorly). i made this thread to try and convince people of my side of the argument. if you don't like it fine, i have no control over you BUT if you are going to dismiss what i am saying and tell me i am wrong at the very least show me you logical reason behind it WITH source for that reasoning. we can go back and forth all day long on this issue just saying but i think THIS ... but we wont get anywhere.

[Grim Reader]

Actually, the rules have to add up to a playable game. Not an unplayable, unholy, mess. If a RAW interpretation leads to a unplayable game, it is a dysfunction or a mistaken interpretation. And interpreting classes that advance spellcasting classes as spellcasting classes themselves leads to dysfunction.

For example, what happens if you have levels in both Mystic Theurge and another theurge class, and trigger the Theurge class with Mystic Theurge, then apply the other class' +1 back to Mystic Theurge?

If a half-elf takes Half-elf Paragon, then Human Paragon levels from level 1-6, he has six levels of what you call spellcasing classes (and can probably qualify for others from there). Is he Arcane or Divine ? Spontaneous or prepared? What spells can he cast?

This is a rules interpretation like saying that there is no rule saying a character cannot take actions when he is dead. No specific rule against it but not really compatible with the game setup.

The "Spells per day" and "Spellcating" titles pretty obviously refers to how the class affects the spells per day table of an actual spellcasting class.

Which is what we understand "spellcasting" class to mean. A class with a spells per day table. Cleric, Wizard, Sublime Chord, Suel Arcanamach, etc. Note what the text for Thamaturgist says:

"The character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class." Spells per day. If we look at the classes, we find a number of them have a table with a header called "Spells per day" Classes like Sorcerer, Cleric etc.

Hence, this feature, often written under the "spellcasting" header of the PrC is applied to classes that have such a table. It can't have any effect on other classes, because they have no such table.

The rules seem pretty specific.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They have no entry that says "[this class] casts arcane/divine spells" or similar, like every actual spellcasting class has.

There's a big difference between reading a class to see what it does, and deciding ahead of time what you want it to do and trying to find anything in the wording that can justify it. You've made zero RAW arguments thus far, only pointed out that the wording could mean what you want it to mean, despite the fact that it clearly doesn't.

If I saw anyone actually doing that in a game, I would seriously question the DM's ability to properly arbitrate the rules.

[Dagroth]

I think the real problem is that Theurge classes simply (usually) can't take a character to level 20 as a Theurge.

The Standard entry for a Mystic Theurge is Clr-3/Wiz-3. If MT had 14 levels (or 16 levels, due to early entry), most people wouldn't try to find ways to "advance Theurge casting".

The same with other Theurge classes.

It just boils down to a "where do we go from here?" situation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think the real problem is that Theurge classes simply (usually) can't take a character to level 20 as a Theurge.

The Standard entry for a Mystic Theurge is Clr-3/Wiz-3. If MT had 14 levels (or 16 levels, due to early entry), most people wouldn't try to find ways to "advance Theurge casting".

The same with other Theurge classes.

It just boils down to a "where do we go from here?" situation.

Not necessarily. What happens when a Wizard 1/ Cleric 2/ MT 1 wants to start taking Chruch Inquisitor and using those levels to advance MT? That gets much better HD, skill points, and class features than MT, so this would basically reduce MT to a one-level class. Luckily this is not the case.

[death390]

never once did i say a DM couldn't adjucate against stacking levels and infinite loops, in fact i probably wouldn't allow it myself if i DM. but i am talking RAW, and by RAW with my interpretation you COULD stack the same class on itself for spellcasting (useless unless dual progression) or anything that can create infinite loops (looking at the spell celerity). also the rules never state that that have to create a playable game (that i know of, please source that if there is)

my point is that by my interpretation of RAW all prestige classes are spellcasting class, and by the most limited versions; most classes in complete mage are (due to the class feature), and the 8 classes that have that "Other spellcasting class" phrasing are spellcasting classes.

[death390]

What about classes like Eldritch theurge which has class features, ultimate magus, arcane heirophant ect. these are all theurge classes that get class skills with similar standard entry (and sometimes similar early entry) prestige classes that get better pretty much everything than the mystic theurge. so what is it turns it into a single level dip spellcasting class.

there are so many reasons to dip one level in multiple different classes. hell you can single level dip into swordsage at fighter 18/ swordsage 1 and get stances and manuvers for the cost of what 1/4th of a BAB? should we not allow that because it is a dip?

dips are part of DND as far back as multiclassing goes, why? because it gets you something difficult (or impossible) to obtain otherwise.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why take the second through tenth levels of Mystic Thurge, when you could take one level of it, then use another prestige class to advance it?

The classes you named off don't have a spell progression, don't have any class features that say anything like "[this class] casts arcane/divine spells" or similar, and have nothing that indicates they could be considered a spellcasting class. If the class doesn't have spell slots and doesn't have a spell list and doesn't have a spell progression or caster level, it's not a spellcasting class. There's no such thing as your Mystic Theurge caster level, you have caster levels for the classes you started with that actually are spellcasting classes instead.

[death390]

Why take the second level of Sorcerer when i can early entry trick into prestige classes for it? there is nothing that sorcerer progresses other than familiar so if i ACF it away there is no reason to take sorcerer 2.

hell a silverbrow human Spellcaster (NPC class from unearthed arcana) can have his first level of nightmare spinner (with the base 2 flaws) at level 2

1 Versatile spellcaster
Bonus feat Heighten spell
Flaw 1 Easy Metamagic (Heighten)
Flaw 2 Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Human feat space open
Take the spell cause fear it's a fear spell, and charm person hey it's mind affecting
You get to pick 4 skills take sense motive bluff and intimidate

tada. no reason to take more than a single level of the base class. all this using the simle Heighten spell trick.

Edited to change class mixed blood trait was homebrew I forgot since table uses a lot


Hell now that means think about it you don't even need the flaws you only need lvl 3 spells can drop Easy metamagic and still have the 3 feats necessary for the trick

[Dagroth]

You can't cast 3rd level spells with Versatile Spellcaster at level 1. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast a 2nd level spell you know (you don't know any. A Heightened 1st level spell is not a second level spell, it's just cast in a 2nd level spell slot... which you don't get from Versatile Spellcaster) by sacrificing 2 1st level spell slots. It does not give you a 2nd level spell slot. Precocious Apprentice does give you a 2nd level spell slot... but only one. You do not get bonus spell slots from high caster stat, because that rule specifically mentions that you only get the bonus spell slots when your caster class gives you access to that level of spell (not when your feats give you access to that level of spell).

Thus, Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you 2nd level spell slots and therefore can't sacrifice those for 3rd level casting. Precocious Apprentice only gives you 1 2nd level spell slot and therefore you don't have enough to sacrifice for 3rd level casting.

Yes, Precocious Apprentice (especially combined with Versatile Spellcaster) can get you early entry to PrCs that require you to be able to cast spells 1 higher level than you are currently able... but not 2 or more levels. Not ever.

Edit: And I agree that Mystic Theurge is very weak in class abilities compared to other Theurge classes. And yes, that should probably be addressed. Giving it d6 for hit points, all class skills of both Cleric & Wizard, Good Fortitude saves, Armored Mage: Light at 3rd or 4th level with Armored Mage: Medium at 7th or 8th level & Armored Mage: Heavy at 11th or 12th level (given 14 levels of the class) and something cool from the Geomancer class like at 5th level you can choose to change your primary caster stat from one of your classes to be the same stat as the other. I.E. make your Int your primary casting stat for both Cleric & Wizard, determining save DCs & bonus spells from 1 stat.

[death390]

you are correct that versatile spellcaster cant give me 3rd level spells by level 1, that is what heighten is for.

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

Please note in the second Bold section "in all ways"

Thus it is treated as if it were a spell of that level so a Charm Person Heightend to 3rd level is a 3rd level spell. Enter Metamagic slot reducers.

Easy Metamagic: reduces the cost of the metamagic feat that it is applied to by 1 (min +1: unless already +0)
Practical Metamagic: Reduces the cost of the metamagic feat that it is applied to by 1 (min +1: unless already +0) when used to spontaneously cast spells.

thus these tricks combine together. spend two 1st level spell slots get a second level spell slot to cast a spell. heighten a 1st level spell to 3rd level, for the cost of +1 (+2 -1) thus cast with a 2nd level spell slot. you have the ability to cast 3rd level spells.

AND the Prerequisite to get into nightmare spinner says this.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells; ability to cast at least one fear spell and at least one mind-affecting illusion spell.

it says noting about spell slots, simply the ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells. which you can do because heightend spells are IN ALL WAYS treated as the spell level they are heightened to.

[Dagroth]

2 problems.

1) Versatile Spellcaster doesn't give you a spell slot. It just allows you to cast a spell one level higher by sacrificing 2 lower level spell slots. Thus, you can only cast a 2nd level spell that you know when you sacrifice 2 1st level spell slots.

Thus, a 1st level spell raise to 3rd level and then reduced to second level is not a second level spell you know. It is, at best, a 3rd level spell you know (in all ways, remember?)... thus not a valid spell for Versatile Spellcaster.

2) The spell slot given by Precocious Apprentice can only be used to cast the 2nd level spell you picked when you take the Feat.

[death390]

in this build i am not using precocoius apprentice, that is in another build farther up the list.

hell a silverbrow human Spellcaster (NPC class from unearthed arcana) can have his first level of nightmare spinner (with the base 2 flaws) at level 2

1 Versatile spellcaster
Bonus feat Heighten spell
Flaw 1 Easy Metamagic (Heighten)
Flaw 2 Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Human feat space open
Take the spell cause fear it's a fear spell, and charm person hey it's mind affecting
You get to pick 4 skills take sense motive bluff and intimidate

The spell is Heightened to 3rd level, if i know the spell, i know the metamagic, thus i know the metamagic enhanced spell, the spell cost is equivalent to a second level spell because of the cost reducer.

example i know fireball, i know maximize, i know maximized fireball. this is a early entry trick that has been used for years and no i didn't come up with it but it does work by RAW.

[Grim Reader]

in this build i am not using precocoius apprentice, that is in another build farther up the list.

hell a silverbrow human Spellcaster (NPC class from unearthed arcana) can have his first level of nightmare spinner (with the base 2 flaws) at level 2

1 Versatile spellcaster
Bonus feat Heighten spell
Flaw 1 Easy Metamagic (Heighten)
Flaw 2 Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Human feat space open
Take the spell cause fear it's a fear spell, and charm person hey it's mind affecting
You get to pick 4 skills take sense motive bluff and intimidate

The spell is Heightened to 3rd level, if i know the spell, i know the metamagic, thus i know the metamagic enhanced spell, the spell cost is equivalent to a second level spell because of the cost reducer.

example i know fireball, i know maximize, i know maximized fireball. this is a early entry trick that has been used for years and no i didn't come up with it but it does work by RAW.

Using Heighten for early entry is quite legal, according to the same rules Q&A that shot down Precocious Apprentice. However, Practical Metamagic requires that you already have the ability to cast 3rd level spells and 8 ranks in spellcraft. So no, it is very far from working by RAW.

I am uncertain why you'd need both Practical and Easy Metamagic though. Neither can reduce cost further than to 1 above the spells normal level, and you should only need 1 of the two.

[Dagroth]

Why take the second level of Sorcerer when i can early entry trick into prestige classes for it? there is nothing that sorcerer progresses other than familiar so if i ACF it away there is no reason to take sorcerer 2.

hell a silverbrow human Spellcaster (NPC class from unearthed arcana) can have his first level of nightmare spinner (with the base 2 flaws) at level 2

1 Versatile spellcaster
Bonus feat Heighten spell
Flaw 1 Easy Metamagic (Heighten)
Flaw 2 Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Human feat space open
Take the spell cause fear it's a fear spell, and charm person hey it's mind affecting
You get to pick 4 skills take sense motive bluff and intimidate

tada. no reason to take more than a single level of the base class. all this using the simle Heighten spell trick.

Edited to change class mixed blood trait was homebrew I forgot since table uses a lot


Hell now that means think about it you don't even need the flaws you only need lvl 3 spells can drop Easy metamagic and still have the 3 feats necessary for the trick

Again, you're missing the point I made.

Versatile Spellcaster does not give you a higher (in this case, second) level spell slot. It allows you to cast a higher level spell that you know by sacrificing two lower level spell slots.

If you Heightened Fear to a Third Level Spell, then Easy Metamagic it to a spell you can cast with a second level spell slot... you can't cast it with Versatile Spellcaster because it's not a second level spell you know. It is, by the definition you provided, a Third Level Spell in all ways.

[death390]

Using Heighten for early entry is quite legal, according to the same rules Q&A that shot down Precocious Apprentice. However, Practical Metamagic requires that you already have the ability to cast 3rd level spells and 8 ranks in spellcraft. So no, it is very far from working by RAW.

I am uncertain why you'd need both Practical and Easy Metamagic though. Neither can reduce cost further than to 1 above the spells normal level, and you should only need 1 of the two.

easy metamagic + Heighten + versatile = 3rd level out of two first level ones and natural spell level 0/1 i honestly forgot about the spellcraft ranks i was going on 40 hours of no sleep at the time. and you are right that you only need easy metamagic to get into nightmare spinner. although you could easy metamagic (easy metamagic) due to it lowering the total slot cost (no lower than +1) rather than practical metamagic (if you need 4th level spells for something)