Unchained Monks, Rogues, and Unarmed Ninjas

[CrimsonRaven]

Q1: Are there any archetypes that are still usable with the unchained monk? Any both usable and worth it?

Q2: Is theere anyway to build an Unchained Monk similar to the League of Legends character Udyr? Primal,with consecutive both fast and hard hits, maybe add bleed damage?

Q3: How would it benefit an Unchained Rogue to go Monk for levels 20-30? Would it give him anything valuable?
He would use his Dex Modifier to Unarmed Attack Rolls. Could he add his Dex Mod to Damage rolls too if he picked Finesse Training (Unarmed) At level 19? Or is this not possible? It would fit this rogue to go Monk, story wise and flavor wise, because he was saved when he was young by that monk, and after many years he meets him again, this time to train him.

Q4: Because I want to compare this guy above to something similar but different to see which one I perfer, how would you go about bulding an unarmed striker Ninja? I've heard something about taking a 4lvl dip in monk and then keep going ninja.

[Geddy2112]

Several of the newer monk archtypes are Umonk compatible, although most of the old ones are not compatible. Black Asp and Scaled fist are compatible, there might be more.

Master of many styles could mimic the various stances Udyr has-boar style in particular allows for unarmed strikes to do bleed damage.

At high levels, a rogue might have more dex than any armor would allow as a bonus, and if they had a good wisdom score(or charisma from scaled fist) then they could add that to AC as well. Monk has good fort saves and good will(not umonk) which is a nice boost. He could dex to damage his unarmed strikes with finesse training. Ki powers are okay and some can stack up with debilitating injury fairly well. You gain some other skills, but that is pretty meh at level 20+

Unarmed ninja is far better, particularly with the scaled fist archtype existing, because you can use charisma for monk and ninja levels. Ninja and monk ki pools stack-the ki points can be used to activate monk or ninja abilities, and the levels stack to determine size of ki pool. You have to choose which ability score to add to the ki pool when they merge, but that is fine if you went scaled fist. 4 levels in monk gives ki pool, unarmed strikes, evasion, some feats, Wis(or cha) to AC and CMD, fast movement. Ninja gives sneak attack, so although the monk unarmed damage won't scale up any more the sneak attack pool does. There is no official Uninja, but there are rules somebody made for it out there, and it stands to reason since ninja is an alternate rogue class, that you would have a Uninja. It features finesse training from urogue, which is the big sell.

[DarkestKnight]

Q1: As Geddy mentioned, the newer archetypes are compatible, but the older ones aren't for the most part. That being said, there are a couple of homebrew methods floating around about converting the older archetypes to be compatible. I'm actually playing a Zen Archer Unchained monk and GMing a weapon master Unchained Monk. The Zen archer was more complicated to convert, as the ruleset the GM and I were using had some of the class features replace certain levels of Ki Powers, but the general idea is that features are traded for features, so if you'd trade away say Tongue of sun and moon, you match it up with Tongue on unchained monk rather than what level you'd get it.

Q2: I think Geddy got this one, and I don't know much about your reference material, but I'd mention that guided weapons are a monks best friend. they let you replace your wisdom in lieu of strength.

[Kurald Galain]

Q1: Are there any archetypes that are still usable with the unchained monk? Any both usable and worth it?
Note that the restriction against C-monk archetypes on the U-monk is a PFS rule, not in any of the rulebooks otherwise.


Q4: Because I want to compare this guy above to something similar but different to see which one I perfer, how would you go about bulding an unarmed striker Ninja? I've heard something about taking a 4lvl dip in monk and then keep going ninja.
Yes; I see the point of a one-level dip but not the other three. Swift action invis + flurry + sneak attacks is a good combo.

[Florian]

Yes; I see the point of a one-level dip but not the other three. Swift action invis + flurry + sneak attacks is a good combo.

Stacking KI pools and moving Ki over to WIS, mainly, as well as how easy it is to set up SA with Stunning Fist and Mantis Style. Monk of the Mantis is good for this.

[CrimsonRaven]

First of all a clarification. The Rogue/Monk is a falvour/story thing. And I want him to be able to beat someone up, in case he loses his daggers/shortswords. I could already guess the ninja would be a better option, and I can see why.

Master of many styles could work for an Udyr like char, but wouldn't it take away flurry of blows? Am I wrong?

Now I see how monk will give something to the Rogue. Not too much ( not an optimization choice anyway) but it won't be worthless either!

As for the Ninja. The question lies here. 1 level in Scaled Fist Monk and play with Charisma, or 4 Levels to use Wisdom instead? Does it solely depend on ability scores, or are there any more bonuses disadvantages in either of those choices?

Thank you all for sharing your experience and knowledge!

[Florian]

@CrimsonRaven:

There´re some considerations to it.

First, like with your Magus question, you´re wasting oder or more feats by going DEX and TWF´ing.
Second, WIS is overall more useful than CHA in most situations and, on a Monk, let´s you replace DEX for AC, too.
Third, charge > stunning fist is a takedown move that let´s you SA at your leisure.

[Psyren]

Note that the restriction against C-monk archetypes on the U-monk is a PFS rule, not in any of the rulebooks otherwise.

While this is true, the uMonk is also missing a lot of class features that the normal archetypes would trade away, barring them on non-PFS grounds as well. You can pick ki powers that duplicate many of those (e.g. Slow Fall) but it's then a DM call as to whether they truly count as the class feature you're dropping.



Q1: Are there any archetypes that are still usable with the unchained monk? Any both usable and worth it?

Q2: Is theere anyway to build an Unchained Monk similar to the League of Legends character Udyr? Primal,with consecutive both fast and hard hits, maybe add bleed damage?

Q3: How would it benefit an Unchained Rogue to go Monk for levels 20-30? Would it give him anything valuable?
He would use his Dex Modifier to Unarmed Attack Rolls. Could he add his Dex Mod to Damage rolls too if he picked Finesse Training (Unarmed) At level 19? Or is this not possible? It would fit this rogue to go Monk, story wise and flavor wise, because he was saved when he was young by that monk, and after many years he meets him again, this time to train him.

Q4: Because I want to compare this guy above to something similar but different to see which one I perfer, how would you go about bulding an unarmed striker Ninja? I've heard something about taking a 4lvl dip in monk and then keep going ninja.

1) Yes and yes. My personal favorite is Monk of the Mantis but there are several others.

2) Don't know enough about this guy, could you elaborate on his abilities?

3) It's really difficult to determine what would be beneficial post-20. Generally if you're not a caster, epic is bad news.

4) I would personally go straight Ninja with TWF and either Unarmed Combat Mastery or Ascetic Style. Unlike a monk you can wear light armor.

[CrimsonRaven]

Monk of the Mantis, let's you SA during flurry of blows huh? Seems great. I didnt know if it was possible actually on the vanilla unchained, and I was about to ask, when I read the Monk of the Mantis. I had not read your reply the last time Florian, because we replied at the same time and I did not see it XD, sorry. Well Monk the Mantis seems ideal to combine with a rogue.

Florian: Wasting feats? But this is what they are for my friend. To be used in order to make the characte runique and different. I understand that they could be used somewhere else. But this guys learned to TWF long before anyone ever came to him and told him "Buddy I am gonna teach you how to punch your enemies to submission." He didnt think, "Oh that feat will be useless then." Plus the Unchained Rogue goes dex without wasting feats :p
I understand what you are saying. But I am not asking from an optimization perspective. Rather from a, "Would it work at all?" perspective. If it does... I am game.
Also you are correct on the Wisdom vs Charisma part. Exactly what I was thinking. Only... I thought that the monk would add his WIS modifier to his AC, not that it would replace his DEX modifier
Was I wrong?
Also Charge and Stunning Fist? Wouldnt stunning fist suffice? Not that I will not be using my charge when I can. Just wondering for the cases when I can't.



Psyren:
1: I will look into it
2: A fast and strong striker at the same time. His tiger style deals bleed damage on his first strike against an enemy, gives him faster strikes for a while, and makes all his strikes deal bonus physical damage.
His turtle style, gives him a shield and allows for his strikes to heal him back. His bear style gives him bonus speed, and renders his first target stunned. His Phoenix stance, makes fire burst out of his fists when they connect.
3: Yeah, I have realized that. Still I am just academically asking...
4: I had heard that ascetic style was considered banned. Still of course that is up to any DM's leisure, but I heard from someone that Paizo conscidered it overpowered. ( And maybe they have a point) Also I thoguth Ascetic style was someone, using weapons with the same ease as if they were unarmed strikes. Not unarmed strikes themshelves.
Ninja with unarmed combat mastery looks interesting though. Also here's the answer as to why take 4 level dip in Ninja I think, besides the WIS to Ki Pool instead of CHA. Of coruse the ninja and monk level still will be at -4 at early and mid levels but when they cap it will fix itself.

Anyway those are general thoughts I think you answered most of my qeusetion already and I think I gained a much better understanding of the unchained classes, and their ptoential combinations. Thank you all!

[Florian]

@CrimsonRaven:

I´m not too concerned with TO, but rather focus on a good cost-benefit-ratio that most players w/o a deeper system mastery can grasp.

[Psyren]

2: A fast and strong striker at the same time. His tiger style deals bleed damage on his first strike against an enemy, gives him faster strikes for a while, and makes all his strikes deal bonus physical damage.
His turtle style, gives him a shield and allows for his strikes to heal him back. His bear style gives him bonus speed, and renders his first target stunned. His Phoenix stance, makes fire burst out of his fists when they connect.

You can do all of these with ki powers and style feats, no archetypes needed. Unchained Monks can even pounce (via Flying Kick, or feat chains like Dimensional Assault/Outslug Sprint/etc.) If you want to switch between styles quickly, pick up Combat Style Master - and since your GM is allowing Unchained, see if you can get the Stamina rules okayed too. At level 30 you should have plenty of feats to spare.



4: I had heard that ascetic style was considered banned. Still of course that is up to any DM's leisure, but I heard from someone that Paizo conscidered it overpowered. ( And maybe they have a point) Also I thoguth Ascetic style was someone, using weapons with the same ease as if they were unarmed strikes. Not unarmed strikes themshelves.

Ascetic Style (and specifically for your purposes, Ascetic Strike) does indeed work with unarmed strike; It works with any weapon in the "monk" fighter group, and that is one of them.

As for it being banned - PFS tends to ban things that allow classes to step on each other's toes, like Ascetic Style (to let other classes get Monk/Brawler unarmed damage) or Primalist Bloodrager (which gives a Bloodrager Barbarian powers) or Steel Hound Investigator (which gives an Investigator Gunslinger Deeds.) Whether those are banned at home or not is purely up to your GM, but they aren't banned because they're overpowered, but rather for niche protection.

[dude123nice]

You can do all of these with ki powers and style feats, no archetypes needed. Unchained Monks can even pounce (via Flying Kick, or feat chains like Dimensional Assault/Outslug Sprint/etc.) If you want to switch between styles quickly, pick up Combat Style Master - and since your GM is allowing Unchained, see if you can get the Stamina rules okayed too. At level 30 you should have plenty of feats to spare.



Ascetic Style (and specifically for your purposes, Ascetic Strike) does indeed work with unarmed strike; It works with any weapon in the "monk" fighter group, and that is one of them.

As for it being banned - PFS tends to ban things that allow classes to step on each other's toes, like Ascetic Style (to let other classes get Monk/Brawler unarmed damage) or Primalist Bloodrager (which gives a Bloodrager Barbarian powers) or Steel Hound Investigator (which gives an Investigator Gunslinger Deeds.) Whether those are banned at home or not is purely up to your GM, but they aren't banned because they're overpowered, but rather for niche protection.

Unless I am mistaken, ascetic style lets you use ANY effect that would affect, apply to or be used with an unarmed strike apply to a monk weapon instead. This includes improved monk unarmed dmg die applied to weapons, and so many other things that were never meant to be available to weapon combat. THAT is why it is currently banned in PFS

[Florian]

Unless I am mistaken, ascetic style lets you use ANY effect that would affect, apply to or be used with an unarmed strike apply to a monk weapon instead. This includes improved monk unarmed dmg die applied to weapons, and so many other things that were never meant to be available to weapon combat. THAT is why it is currently banned in PFS

There´s more to it and the devil´s in the details here. The problem´s not with Ascetic Style, but with the special benefits of Ascetic Strike and Form.

[Psyren]

Unless I am mistaken, ascetic style lets you use ANY effect that would affect, apply to or be used with an unarmed strike apply to a monk weapon instead. This includes improved monk unarmed dmg die applied to weapons, and so many other things that were never meant to be available to weapon combat. THAT is why it is currently banned in PFS

Except the Brawler gets that same ability via Close Weapon Mastery just fine and it is not banned. Neither is Sacred Fist Warpriest. Again, it's not the power of monk damage dice (...ha!) that's the problem, it was making that ability and others like it easily available to every martial class - they wanted to keep a tighter leash on it for niche protection.

It's like how they banned most of the archetypes that turn your class into a gunslinger-lite (e.g. Musketeer Cavalier, Steel Hound Investigator, Trophy Hunter Ranger, Spellslinger and Black Powder Inquisitor are all banned) - they wanted gunslingers to shine as the "gun-user" at a PFS table. They didn't actually think guns themselves were overpowered, or the Gunslinger itself would have been banned. Things like that.

[CrimsonRaven]

You can do all of these with ki powers and style feats, no archetypes needed.
Yeap, my bad for not calrifying, in my second question, about the Udyr-Monk I was thinking mainly about Style feats, not archetypes.

My first question was related to archetypes. And it was more general. I wanted to know just in case. Customziation is a big thing for me. And I dont want every monk I make, as either a player or a GM to be the same.

Anyway I've gotten all teh info I wanted guys. Thank you a lot. On my way to make those characters unique right now :D