How to Run a Challenging High-Powered Campaign for Only Two PCs, no Cohorts or NPCs

[druid zook]

I'm looking for advice on setting up a campaign for only two players who will each run a single PC, with no cohorts or NPC party members. I want to ensure that they can survive and thrive. It's going to be hard to balance.

High ability scores (say, 50-point buy?), quasi-deity paragon creature template, triple-class gestalt builds. Starting level between 10 & 15.

First problem is that the high LA causes the PCs to become epic too soon, freezing their BABs too low. The DMG (209) says to use ECL to determine when a creature is epic. So my work-around is to let them have racial HD as outsiders in parallel. This way, they can get up to four attacks per weapon at the highest levels.

(I wonder if WotC even considered players using the paragon creature template from 1st level?)

The theme I have in mind is that the PCs are the offspring of deities and are trapped inside a prison demi-plane, along with other unwanted quasi-deity bastards, and abominations. Some deities feel they should all be destroyed, some want to keep them around just in case of need, and a few want to see them escape if they are worthy. Who cares, they only like hack-and-slash anyway.

Any advice on how to adjust the CRs and make challenging encounters?

[Jack_Simth]

Me, I'd be inclined to run it as gestalt. If one is a Druid//Wizard, and the other is a Druid//Ninja, then:

There are two meatshields (the animal companions)
They have plenty of healing
Skillmonkey is covered (ninja)
Arcane is covered (Wizard)
Divine is covered (Druid)


If you're going Pathfinder, then there's a lot of other ways to get an animal companion, granting much more variety.

[Malroth]

As long as any side of the gestault is full wizard, cleric, druid, archivist or Psion they'll be fine.

[ryu]

Me, I'd be inclined to run it as gestalt. If one is a Druid//Wizard, and the other is a Druid//Ninja, then:

There are two meatshields (the animal companions)
They have plenty of healing
Skillmonkey is covered (ninja)
Arcane is covered (Wizard)
Divine is covered (Druid)


If you're going Pathfinder, then there's a lot of other ways to get an animal companion, granting much more variety.

Factotum over ninja. It has extra actions, is better at skills, has extra actions, has natural int synergy to a higher degree, extra actions, and iajitsu focus if you really care about meleeing things for some reason. Also extra actions.

[Lazymancer]

Any advice on how to adjust the CRs and make challenging encounters?
Regardless of stats/level, you are going to face the problem of action economy: larger groups of enemies can overrun your two-PC party, while SoS/SoD effects have much higher impact, since they affect half of party.

Consequently, until you get the hang of their abilities, be wary of dumping 10+ mobs on them or monsters with SoS/SoD, as you might do with regular party. Try regular weak mobs and/or one big monster. Also, having one of PCs to be summoner of some sort should skew action economy back. Don't forget about Binder with vestige of summoning.


I want to ensure that they can survive and thrive. It's going to be hard to balance.
I'd say you need cooperation from players too. Unless your players understand that they can run away from encounters, know when they should, and do it - you'll have to either fudge the dice or railroad like a bitch to keep them alive.

Consider giving them some sort of regeneration, so as to allow incapacitation in battle, but not death - not until battle is lost, at least.

[druid zook]

My thoughts have morphed into combining gestalt, outsider (native), quasi-deity, and paragon creature into a monster class. This way, they get a little improvement every level, to keep some balance.

Fast healing would prolong their survival, and extra actions would help too.

However, I don't think I have a handle on the game balance yet. I once ran a two-player game with a free +1 LA, 36-point buy, and triple-class gestalt. They were too weak at first level that I had to add an NPC party member. But by 10th level, they were too strong.

[Bohandas]

You could always ignore the epic rules for saving throws and bab and just extend the normal progressions

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a big difference between whether they're epic and when they start using epic attack and save bonus progressions. From the DMG page 206:

Epic Save Bonus: A character's base save bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus to all saving throws every even-numbered level after 20th...

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, a character's base attack bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attack rolls every odd-numbered level after 20th...

At ECL 21+ they're epic characters, but they still use normal BAB and base save progressions for every class level/hit die until 20th. It could be argued that you start gaining those epic bonuses at ECL 21, in addition to your base attack and save progression from class levels, until your character level reaches 20th. So for example a +6 LA character who reaches ECL 21 starts gaining epic attack and save bonuses, but also continues getting base attack and base save bonuses from his class levels until ECL 26.

[AOKost]

I'm runing a custom 3.P game that relies heavily on Custom Characters: http://www.easydamus.com/CustomCharacters.html for two charactors using 90 points to distribute between ability scores, point for point instead of a "point-buy" system.

These two aspects have allowed them to survive and thrive. It took them a while to get to a point that they were actually 'comfortable' and felt they weren't going to die in the first fight.

[druid zook]

I'm runing a custom 3.P game that relies heavily on Custom Characters: http://www.easydamus.com/CustomCharacters.html for two charactors using 90 points to distribute between ability scores, point for point instead of a "point-buy" system.

These two aspects have allowed them to survive and thrive. It took them a while to get to a point that they were actually 'comfortable' and felt they weren't going to die in the first fight.

It seems to be designed into the game that PCs are extremely vulnerable at low levels, and harder to kill the higher level they become. My goal is to be able to use published adventure modules with only minor changes, and still keep it challenging, without 2 PCs being under- or overpowered.

[druid zook]

Another factor is that I can't dictate what class combos the players use. It is in my purview to mandate the use of a custom character building system, such as gestalt, and state my rules. But if I tell them one has to play wizard druid or factotum something, I'll have taken away player freedom.

[Demidos]

The level of power you're throwing at 2 1st level characters seems.....excessive. IIRC, the quasi deity template makes them immune to most status effects, which removes alot of the ways you can interact with them without directly attacking their HP. Paragon means they'll never fail against any reasonable level CR creature ever -- as the developers intended you to fight creatures of a particular CR at a particular level, I think this would in fact make it MORE difficult to balance against while still giving them a challenge. Lastly, triple gestalt is at the point where they won't know what to do with their actions.

My biggest piece of advice is DONT DO THE PARAGON TEMPLATE. They'll have bigger numbers, but that just makes combat more swingy, and lessens the fun. Defensive abilities that act slowly (like recover 2 ability damage/drain per round, 2 hp per round) still makes them seem incredibly powerful without making it that they don't get scratched by anything but a scythe that crits at which point they die instantly.

My suggestion would be --
40 pb, Gestalt, and a free homebrew template (Legendary) which gives them some minor form of fast healing, and the ability to heal off status effects at a quicker rate than most. Perhaps you can give them a new minor feature of the quasi-deity template every level (triple move speed, immunity to stunning, etc) so they'll eventually reach the full template. I would also explain action -economy to the players, and mention some sort of way to spread out the damage (animal companions, summoning, etc) or blunt the damage somehow (ironguard, etc) will probably be a good idea, but i'd let them choose the specifics.