Help me optimize my ranger

[tedcahill2]

Note: I did a full edit of this post, so the first 8 replies may not appear relevant anymore. Thanks for the help.
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I may be starting a new E6 game in dungeons and dragons third edition. We're going to start at level six, but possibly with no gear.

My character would not be solely about damage output, but it wouldn't hurt to optimize where I can.

I'm thinking of doing a Xeph Ranger. I want to use the distracting attack acf at Ranger 4, and want to pick a variant that trades the rangers spells for something else.

The Xeph racial feats from Complete Psionics are great (I think), and the power points I get from being a Xeph can power things like Psionic weapon for some additional damage output, and speed of thought for added mobility.

Since it's E6 I think I should stick to high base attack classes, so I have iterative attacks at level 6. Ranger archer style will give rapid shot, and I add many shot later.

I was thinking of adding two levels of fighter, for the feats, possibly using the thug variant, for the higher skill points.

Using my numerous attacks per turn, 3 with rapid shot and 4 with Xeph Celerity, I can potentially hit 4 targets, each one becoming "flanked" by me due to distracting attack.

[Venger]

I may be starting a new E6 game in dungeons and dragons third edition. We're going to start at level six, but possibly with no gear. I was thinking of doing either an archer, or a mage slayer.

What is the most optimized level six build for those archtypes? I can use any material except dragon magazine.

like all mundanes, archers are heavily dependent on gear, so that would be a poor choice in a no-loot game.

you may consider a meldshaper, either a totemist or incarnate depending on your playstyle.

[Soranar]

As an archer type a warlock (ranged attacker) is pretty good in e6.

Your eldritch blast does 3d6 damage, at will and it's a touch attack. You can spend all your extra feats on extra invocations to become more versatile although you can only get 1 least invocation so choose it carefully. Personally I would choose the dead walk since it can get you flight through an undead pet and you can boost your undead with corpse crafter feats.

If you already have a flight speed (through a flying race, a template or a flying familiar /mount). Then it's less of a question though dispel magic is always useful too.

Knowledge devotion works well with such a character.

otherwise, you could go for a Crusader as an attack of opportunity build that combines well with mage slayer.

[DEMON]

For standard archery...

If capstone feats are in play, Fighter 6 qualifies for Ranged Weapon Mastery (also Greater Weapon Focus and Improved Critical).

Obviously, Hit-and-Run Tactics Sneak Attack Fighter is the best option.

Thanks to his BAB 6, you can also take Woodland Archer and Improved Rapid Shot which net you 3 attacks and nice to hit bonuses.

Craven boosts your SA damage by extra 6 points.

PBS, PrS, RaS are, of course, must haves, MaS is required for Improved RaS.

If you decide to use a crossbow, Crossbow Sniper is very handy as well.

...

While Ranger does not qualify for the BAB +8 / Fighter +8 feats, he gets a few spells instead and can easily get access to Wizard spells and/or a decent Animal Companion as well and Wildshape/Wild Feats.

Ranger 5 / (Hit-and-Run Tactics SA) Fighter 1, or (blahblah) Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 (...Ranger 1 / X 1 also works) is also a very nice option, even though these builds don't qualify for the capstone feats.

[tedcahill2]

As an archer type a warlock (ranged attacker) is pretty good in e6.

Your eldritch blast does 3d6 damage, at will and it's a touch attack. You can spend all your extra feats on extra invocations to become more versatile although you can only get 1 least invocation so choose it carefully. Personally I would choose the dead walk since it can get you flight through an undead pet and you can boost your undead with corpse crafter feats.

If you already have a flight speed (through a flying race, a template or a flying familiar /mount). Then it's less of a question though dispel magic is always useful too.

Knowledge devotion works well with such a character.

otherwise, you could go for a Crusader as an attack of opportunity build that combines well with mage slayer.

What's knowledge devotion?

[DEMON]

What's knowledge devotion?

A feat from CC that gives you bonus to attack and damage based on your knowledge (depends on the target) check ranging from +1 to +5.

[DEMON]

You can spend all your extra feats on extra invocations to become more versatile although you can only get 1 least invocation so choose it carefully.

One lesser invocation. You can get all leaset invocations through Extra Invocation feats.

[daremetoidareyo]

Spider climb as a lesser invocation is a better choice

[Grod_The_Giant]

like all mundanes, archers are heavily dependent on gear, so that would be a poor choice in a no-loot game.

you may consider a meldshaper, either a totemist or incarnate depending on your playstyle.
I'm inclined to agree here: a Totemist 6 (Magic of Incarnum) can make you a phenomenally dangerous archer. The key is the Manticore Belt meld-- bind it to your totem slot, and you can shoot 4 spikes* as a standard action, each doing 1d6+1/2 Str. Throw in Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves) and you can probably add another ~3 points to each shot. My recommended build would probably be something like Azurin Totemist 6, grabbing Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces**), Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves), Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and Bonus Essentia. As you gain more feats, take Open Least Chakra twice and look into some more choice Shape Soulmelds off the Incarnate list. In combat, you'll have 7 essentia. Invest 4 in your Manticore Belt, 2 in your Sighting Gloves, and the last in Astral Vambraces or another defensive meld. With a decent Str score (say, 14), you should be shooting things for 4d6+16 or more.

*2 base, +1 for the class-based bonus, and +1 for the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat.
**Not strictly necessary, but it can grant you DR 6/Magic easily, which is a heck of a defense in E6

I wouldn't really recommend Warlock 6 as an archer; the 3d6 stacks up poorly against a bow (If you figure a conventional archer deals d8+3 per shot, you're only barely ahead on standard-action shooting (10.5 vs 7.5); Manyshot or a full attack will leave you in the dirt, and even Weapon Specialization makes the point largely moot). Three feats and a race*** can get you a 4d6 touch attack, while Scout 5 adds a neat 2d6 skirmish damage to that. 6d6 looks much better.

...actually, better yet go Azurin Scout 5/Incarnate 1 and take Improved Skirmish at 6th level. That gets you up to 4d6 skirmish damage with a 3d6 ranged touch attack****, for 7d6 total. Easy-peasy, and you can still add Expanded Capacity and any of the Cobolt feats if you want the extra d6 instead of some feats. Grab Bonus Essentia with your first bonus feat.

***Any Magic of Incarnum race with bonus essentia, and Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and Bonus Essentia will do the trick-- you get 3 essentia, and can invest all 3 in Dissolving Spittle to do 4d6 acid damage as a ranged touch.
****Azurin gives you 1 essentia, and Incarnate 1 gives you another. Shape Dissolving Spittle and invest both, and it does 3d6.

[tedcahill2]

I think straight up damage out put isn't what I'm looking for.

I've been looking through my books and I have an idea for my archer character. I'm going to edit my original post.

[Dagroth]

Rather than Fighter levels, you might consider PsiWarrior Levels.

You do lose 1 BAB, but you do get both bonus feats (and they can be Psionic Feats) and you get a couple of powers known, 2 Psi Points and bonus Psi points based on Wisdom.

You can get Biofeedback (for DR), Inertial Armor (for AC), Call Weaponry (for, well, weapons), Expansion (get big!), Force Screen (for more AC).

Heck, since it's e6, you might just spend your two bonus feats on Expanded Knowledge!

Practiced Manifester is also very useful, since it will increase the number of power points you can use in a single power from 2 to 6.

[Soranar]

Ok... yeah a ranger is definitely different.

I feel like pointing something out before I give advice for the ranger build : a warlock's eldritch blast with psionic shot and greater psionic shot (+ the movement to refocus feat) would deal 7d6 damage as a touch attack, that is incredibly difficult for an archer to replicate

even just 3d6 damage is pretty tough to match when your to hit is limited to +6 (+4 after rapid shot penalties are applied) and DR applies to each individual arrows you fire so any creature with DR 5 (like your basic skeleton) and you end up hoping to roll well on your damage rolls to deliver 1-4 damage (1d8+3 STR -5DR ... you only do damage on rolls of 3-8 when you actually hit)

normally hank's energy bow would be your answer to DR but, due to e6, that bow represents essientially all of your magic items, assuming it's even allowed

anyway, back to the ranger

I would really question not using the ranger spellcasting in e6 considering 1 bonus feat is not worth much in a setting that grants you bonus feats by the bucket

Notable level 1 ranger spells

-hunter's mercy (auto crit, swift action)
-entangle
-guided shot (ignore all concealment, swift action)

A decent combo for a high skillpoint class is the education feat + knowledge devotion (to max out every relevant knowledges, there are 6 you need but you can manage fine with just 3 or 4.

Oddly enough, you're probably better off investing heavily in a fighter build

-you can trade your bonus feats for sneak attack
-you can trade your heavy armor proficiency for DEX to damage vs flat footed opponent within 30'
-weapon specialization is one of the rare ways to boost your damage for every attack and the weapon focus offsets the rapid shot penalty a little. Even if you only sneak attack people in the surprise round (due to your high DEX + your bonus to ini from the fighter ACF) that's still 3d6 damage you didn't have before.

now swift hunter is a mixed bag in this setting

-you don't get enough favored enemies to cover every type immune to crits
-because you multiclass you lose your 2nd iterative attack which is a big deal in your case : it makes greater manyshot useless and rapid shot doesn't work if you move. Meaning you only get 1 attack if you intend to use skirmish damage... again you'd be better off just playing a warlock

A decent archer would be a barbarian with the whirling frenzy ACF (it works with bows too) and the bonus to STR helps your damage. In fact this is just as strong as a fighter build and you get more hitpoints and more skillpoints from it)

If you are intent on playing a ranger (for whatever reason)

The archer combat style gets manyshot for free anyway. Make sure you take the arcane hunter ACF since it applies to anything that can cast spells or spell like abilities (basically anything dangerous)

[Eldariel]

Mystic Ranger [Dragon 336] is the god of E6. Basically loses some minor stuff (animal companion, Improved Combat Style, etc.) for getting spells at Sorcerer-speed (so 3rd level spells on level 6). Given how awesome Ranger-spells are for archery, that would be incredible. You could even pick Manyshot as a feat; it's pretty nice with Find the Gap (3rd level Ranger-spell making your first attack each round a touch attack).

[ATHATH]

A Wild Shape (variant) (is sometimes also called Shape-Changing) Mystic Ranger (another variant) 6 is one of, if not THE, best builds in E6. Add the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, and you get the following:

The amazingness that is Wild Shape (mmm, flight (and being able to turn into a tentacle-monster with loads of natural attacks per round if you take the Aberration Wildshape feat)...)
6 BAB (2 attacks per Full-Attack!)
Up to 3rd level Ranger/Wizard spells (Wizards get a buttload of good self-buffs that can help with archery/melee combat/whatever you want to do, really)
A Fleshraker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=428IyxSfsls) (who can become Raptor Jesus if you take the right feats)
Some other stuff that you'll never use because of the amazingness of the stuff that I just listed

I recommend checking out the Feats, Animal Companion, Wild Shape, and Alternate Wild Shape Forms of eggynack's rather excellent Druid handbook, as a lot of the stuff that applies to them will apply to a Wild Shape Mystic Ranger: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook

Pick up Initiate of Olidammara for the ability to cast any 3rd level or lower Bard spell that's in the PHB with a second level Ranger spell slot. You should also check out Natural Spell, Natural Bond, Aberration Wildshape, Greenbound Summoning, and Spontaneous Summoner feats.

Oh, and E6 has a special system that lets you take hits to your point-buy total in place of LA. Take the Half-Fey, Phrenic, and Necropolitan templates and never look back. Remember that PLAs can be augmented up to your HD (6d10 (NOT 7d10) Psionic Thrust FTW!) for no PP cost.

Sadly, you can't take Favored Enemy: Arcanists, as it's actually a 1st level Ranger ACF and Mystic Ranger pushes your first Favored Enemy back a level. If you're playing some other Ranger build, though, you definitely should take it, even if your character doesn't hate Arcanists (maybe he admires them, respects their power, and/or dropped out of mage-school at a young age, and thus has learned a great deal about them).

Note that you can still be an archer. If you wanted to go the easy way out, you could fluff your offensive SLAs, PLAs, and spells as being magical arrows that you create/enchant and immediately fire (That Fireball was an explosive arrow! Think Hawkeye.). You could also just take some Wild Shape form that can fire a bow (and can fly, if you can find one), buff yourself up with some Wizard/Ranger/Bard spells, and use your 6 BAB to absolutely murder anything that gets in your way.

[DEMON]

Since it's E6 I think I should stick to high base attack classes, so I have iterative attacks at level 6. Ranger archer style will give rapid shot, and I add many shot later.

I was thinking of adding two levels of fighter, for the feats, possibly using the thug variant, for the higher skill points.

Fighter 2 is superbad for E6. Unless you really need the Resolute or Dungeoncrusher ACFs for some reason (which you most certainly don't in this case).

There's just no point for taking it over Ranger 6. With the Thug ACF, all it gives you is a single feat at Ftr 2, which you would actually get even with Ranger 6 (Manyshot), along more skills and skill points, better saves and other class features. Sneak Attack Hit-and-Run tactics Fighter 1, on the other hand, might be handy. And I'd probalby add Warblade 1 to this build for good measure (for a Rgr 4 / Ftr 1 / Wbl 1).

Also, I'd suggest not giving up on your spells, since Rangers have some nice archery-related spells as well as other nice ones (e.g. Entangle).

Unless you have some sneak attackers that would benefit from you flanking a bunch of targets, Distracting attack isn't that hot, in my opinion.

Personally, I'd either take a (Snow) Elf Ranger with a Cooshee companion (add Natural Bond for a 6 HD magical beast companion; bonus points if you can warbeast train it, too), or trade it for the Shooting Star substitution level 4 for an extra spells slot and CL buff, instead (with Magical Training and Sword of the Arcane Order feats, that's 3 extra Wizard cantrips and access to 1st level Wizard spells through your Ranger spell slots).

More suggestions in my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21896065&postcount=4).


Rather than Fighter levels, you might consider PsiWarrior Levels.

You do lose 1 BAB, but you do get both bonus feats (and they can be Psionic Feats) and you get a couple of powers known, 2 Psi Points and bonus Psi points based on Wisdom.

Bonus feats aren't worth much in E6, but losing that 1 BAB could be quite crippling for this sort of build - You'd not only lose your iterative attack, but also access to feats like Improved Rapid Shot (that's a -2 to all your full attacks right there) and Woodland Archer.


Ok... yeah a ranger is definitely different.

I feel like pointing something out before I give advice for the ranger build : a warlock's eldritch blast with psionic shot and greater psionic shot (+ the movement to refocus feat) would deal 7d6 damage as a touch attack, that is incredibly difficult for an archer to replicate

even just 3d6 damage is pretty tough to match when your to hit is limited to +6 (+4 after rapid shot penalties are applied) and DR applies to each individual arrows you fire so any creature with DR 5 (like your basic skeleton) and you end up hoping to roll well on your damage rolls to deliver 1-4 damage (1d8+3 STR -5DR ... you only do damage on rolls of 3-8 when you actually hit)

normally hank's energy bow would be your answer to DR but, due to e6, that bow represents essientially all of your magic items, assuming it's even allowed

anyway, back to the ranger

I would really question not using the ranger spellcasting in e6 considering 1 bonus feat is not worth much in a setting that grants you bonus feats by the bucket

Notable level 1 ranger spells

-hunter's mercy (auto crit, swift action)
-entangle
-guided shot (ignore all concealment, swift action)

A decent combo for a high skillpoint class is the education feat + knowledge devotion (to max out every relevant knowledges, there are 6 you need but you can manage fine with just 3 or 4.

Oddly enough, you're probably better off investing heavily in a fighter build

-you can trade your bonus feats for sneak attack
-you can trade your heavy armor proficiency for DEX to damage vs flat footed opponent within 30'
-weapon specialization is one of the rare ways to boost your damage for every attack and the weapon focus offsets the rapid shot penalty a little. Even if you only sneak attack people in the surprise round (due to your high DEX + your bonus to ini from the fighter ACF) that's still 3d6 damage you didn't have before.

now swift hunter is a mixed bag in this setting

-you don't get enough favored enemies to cover every type immune to crits
-because you multiclass you lose your 2nd iterative attack which is a big deal in your case : it makes greater manyshot useless and rapid shot doesn't work if you move. Meaning you only get 1 attack if you intend to use skirmish damage... again you'd be better off just playing a warlock

A decent archer would be a barbarian with the whirling frenzy ACF (it works with bows too) and the bonus to STR helps your damage. In fact this is just as strong as a fighter build and you get more hitpoints and more skillpoints from it)

If you are intent on playing a ranger (for whatever reason)

The archer combat style gets manyshot for free anyway. Make sure you take the arcane hunter ACF since it applies to anything that can cast spells or spell like abilities (basically anything dangerous)

Overall nice points, just a few things I'd like to add:

- Improved Rapid Shot gets rid of the -2 penalty to attack when using Rapid Shot
- Hunter's Mercy is a standard action spell, sadly (unless there's a newer version I'm unaware of).
- You can get extra favored enemies through Extra Favored Enemy feat

And for the record, I prefer a Swift Ambusher (Rogue 3 / Scout 3 or better yet Rog 2 / SA HnRT Ftr 1 / Sco 3) build for an E6 skirmisher (and you should still qualify for Swift Hunter with some feat investment).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Note: I did a full edit of this post, so the first 8 replies may not appear relevant anymore. Thanks for the help.
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I may be starting a new E6 game in dungeons and dragons third edition. We're going to start at level six, but possibly with no gear.

My character would not be solely about damage output, but it wouldn't hurt to optimize where I can.

I'm thinking of doing a Xeph Ranger. I want to use the distracting attack acf at Ranger 4, and want to pick a variant that trades the rangers spells for something else.

The Xeph racial feats from Complete Psionics are great (I think), and the power points I get from being a Xeph can power things like Psionic weapon for some additional damage output, and speed of thought for added mobility.

Since it's E6 I think I should stick to high base attack classes, so I have iterative attacks at level 6. Ranger archer style will give rapid shot, and I add many shot later.

I was thinking of adding two levels of fighter, for the feats, possibly using the thug variant, for the higher skill points.

Using my numerous attacks per turn, 3 with rapid shot and 4 with Xeph Celerity, I can potentially hit 4 targets, each one becoming "flanked" by me due to distracting attack.
Okay. So you wanna be a Ranger... I seem to recall that Dragon Magazine was off-limits, so no Mystic Ranger. Which is probably for the best, because it's borderline OP in a low-level game-- add in Sword of the Arcane Order, as Eldariel and ATHATH suggested, and you're a Wizard-plus...

So, base Ranger! Ranger 4 seems like your desired base, yes? That can get you lots of skills, Rapid Shot, Distracting Attack, and (I suggest) two of the three ACFs from Complete Champion-- Champion of the Wild replaces your one-two daily Ranger spells with a bonus feat off a quite nice list, and Spiritual Connection trades the crappy Wild Empathy for the much more useful Speak With Animals and Speak With Plants as SLAs 3/day. In terms of dipping a full BAB class...

Duskblade is a decent way to inject some magic back into your character. There are some useful level 1 spells on their list, like Magic Weapon, Resist Energy, Obscuring Mist, and Lesser Deflect.
Warblade is always a good dip. Ranger 4/Warblade 2 would actually get you three 1st level and one 2nd level maneuvers, and there are plenty of things that are useful for archers... and trackers, weirdly enough. Something like Wolf Fang Strike, Hunter's Stance, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Wall of Blades would round out a ranger nicely-- Scent, backup-TWF (mostly for a prereq, admittedly), and a Will save and an AC booster.
Barbarian 1 could actually be very useful. The Whirling Frenzy ACF is 100% compatible with Rage, letting you shoot even more arrows, and since you don't care so much about Pounce, you can nab the Ape Totem sub level from UA to get a climb speed.
Sneak Attack Fighter 1 might not be a bad dip, especially since you want Distracting Attack. Pairs nicely with Hit-And-Run Fighter.


I'd probably go Ranger 4/Warblade 1/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Ape Totem) 1.

[tedcahill2]

I'd probably go Ranger 4/Warblade 1/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Ape Totem) 1.

This looks like a solid path to take. I couldn't find Wall of Blades in Tome of Battle. Which book is Whirling Frenzy in. I would have thought the Ferocity Rage variant, with it's bonus to Dex, would be better for an archer.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This looks like a solid path to take. I couldn't find Wall of Blades in Tome of Battle. Which book is Whirling Frenzy in. I would have thought the Ferocity Rage variant, with it's bonus to Dex, would be better for an archer.
Wall of Blades is a second level Iron Heart maneuver that lets you make an attack roll on place of your AC.
Whirling Frenzy is from Unearthed Arcana. It's also in the SRD.
Frenzy gives you a Dex boost, true, but it also gives a - 2 penalty to ranged attacks past 30ft. Unless you're going for a throwing or precision damage build, not really worth it. You can still make good use of the Str boost from normal rage as an archer with a composite bow.

[DEMON]

This looks like a solid path to take. I couldn't find Wall of Blades in Tome of Battle. Which book is Whirling Frenzy in. I would have thought the Ferocity Rage variant, with it's bonus to Dex, would be better for an archer.

He meant Wall of Blades, the level 2 Iron Heart counter.
Whirling Frenzy is in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ).

Compared to Ferocity, you're mainly trading a +4 Dex bonus for an extra attack.

[Darrin]

I'd probably go Ranger 4/Warblade 1/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Ape Totem) 1.

Seconding this, although I have a couple minor disagreements:


Champion of the Wild replaces your one-two daily Ranger spells with a bonus feat off a quite nice list

Ugh. It's a *terrible* list. And the utility of a feat, particularly in E6, doesn't really outweigh the benefit of all the ranger spells available via wands. In particular, the archery-related spells in the Spell Compendium and Champions of Ruin. Oh, and instant of power, of course (Forge of War). An elvencraft (+300 GP, Races of the Wild) longbow can accommodate two or three wand chambers (100 GP each, Dungeonscape), and so activating swift-action wands could be a pretty darned important part of your combat routine. You get plenty of feats in E6, so there's no reason to trade away all those spells/wands for something you're just going to get later anyway.


Barbarian 1 could actually be very useful. The Whirling Frenzy ACF is 100% compatible with Rage, letting you shoot even more arrows, and since you don't care so much about Pounce, you can nab the Ape Totem sub level from UA to get a climb speed.

Climbing isn't usually compatible with archery. You need two hands free to climb, or one hand to grip if you're hanging in place. So you can't climb and operate a bow at the same time. There are several other Barbarian ACFs that trade Fast Movement for something else:

Bear Totem -> Toughness (UA).
Spirit Bear Totem -> Improved Grab (CChamp).
Boar Totem -> Diehard effect (UA).
Dragon Totem -> Blind-Fight (UA).
Spirit Eagle Totem -> +4 on Search/Spot checks (CChamp).
Spirit Fox Totem -> +4 on Hide/Move Silently checks (CChamp).
Lion Totem -> Run (UA).
Spirit Wolf Totem -> additional +2 attack bonus when flanking (CChamp).

There's also the Roof-dweller ACF from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) -> gain Roofwalker as a bonus feat, and you can pick up Roof-Jumper later even if you don't qualify for the prereqs.

On the other hand... outside of archery, having a Climb speed is generally better than not having a Climb speed, so it probably trumps getting a bonus feat or a +4 bonus on a skill check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ugh. It's a *terrible* list. And the utility of a feat, particularly in E6, doesn't really outweigh the benefit of all the ranger spells available via wands.
Oh, I wouldn't normally recommend it, but the OP did want to trade away their spellcasting, and the only other variant I know that does that (the CWar one) is a steaming pile of turds.


On the other hand... outside of archery, having a Climb speed is generally better than not having a Climb speed, so it probably trumps getting a bonus feat or a +4 bonus on a skill check.
That was my thinking-- it's nice utility. (Also, the Corner Perch skill trick lets you wedge yourself up there for a bit)

[DEMON]

Oh, I wouldn't normally recommend it, but the OP did want to trade away their spellcasting, and the only other variant I know that does that (the CWar one) is a steaming pile of turds.

Technically there's another option for a spell-less Ranger - only 3 levels of Ranger :) (I know you can still use wands, but that's not an issue)

And I just remembered, if we're not married to Xeph, Raptoran Fighter has a decent level 1 substitution for heavy armor proficiency.

[tedcahill2]

Technically there's another option for a spell-less Ranger - only 3 levels of Ranger :) (I know you can still use wands, but that's not an issue)

And I just remembered, if we're not married to Xeph, Raptoran Fighter has a decent level 1 substitution for heavy armor proficiency.

I like the speed boosts available to Xeph, and the ability to take psionic feats, which would otherwise require wild talent.

Comment on spells: the reason I wanted to trade away my spells is because having a single 1st level spell felt pretty worthless, but what I'm picking up from the posts here is that it's not my one spell that's strong, it's my access to wands that give me more spells. That's something I hadn't even considered, as I generally avoid using any item that discharges, eventually becoming useless. They always seemed like a money pit.

[Venger]

I like the speed boosts available to Xeph, and the ability to take psionic feats, which would otherwise require wild talent.

Comment on spells: the reason I wanted to trade away my spells is because having a single 1st level spell felt pretty worthless, but what I'm picking up from the posts here is that it's not my one spell that's strong, it's my access to wands that give me more spells. That's something I hadn't even considered, as I generally avoid using any item that discharges, eventually becoming useless. They always seemed like a money pit.

how often do you play?

if you look at the numbers, you get a lot of mileage out of a normal wand with 50 charges.

if you like spells that you have to cast every round in combat vs buffs that're all encounter long, you might think about eternal wands. they take a while to break even, but if that's a good fit for your game, go for it.

[DEMON]

I like the speed boosts available to Xeph, and the ability to take psionic feats, which would otherwise require wild talent.

Nothing wrong with that, Xeph are find (though I'm more partial to Elans, myself).

I just mentioned Raptorans as another race to consider, since Raptorans can fly, which is pretty handy in E6. And they also get footbow proficiency.

And another interesting option just came to my mind. What's the point buy hit for LA +2 and +3? Would Fey'ri or Avariel still be viable?

Edit: Just checked. The point buy is rather low at those LAs, especially +3 is quite crippling. Though a LA +2 Fey'ri might still be worth it (is there a lesser Fey'ri, btw?) if we were to grab some Ranger substitution levels.

[ATHATH]

Nothing wrong with that, Xeph are find (though I'm more partial to Elans, myself).

I just mentioned Raptorans as another race to consider, since Raptorans can fly, which is pretty handy in E6. And they also get footbow proficiency.

And another interesting option just came to my mind. What's the point buy hit for LA +2 and +3? Would Fey'ri or Avariel still be viable?

Edit: Just checked. The point buy is rather low at those LAs, especially +3 is quite crippling. Though a LA +2 Fey'ri might still be worth it (is there a lesser Fey'ri, btw?) if we were to grab some Ranger substitution levels.
I think a Phrenic Raptoran would be better than a Fey'ri or Avariel. You get more powers and keep flight for the same LA cost (compared to the two other options that you presented). Oh, and Phrenic creatures can pick up Psionic feats and such too, since they get 1 PP as part of the template.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Raptorans don't get full flight until 10th, if I recall correctly-- at 6th they'll still have the time limit.

[DEMON]

I think a Phrenic Raptoran would be better than a Fey'ri or Avariel. You get more powers and keep flight for the same LA cost (compared to the two other options that you presented). Oh, and Phrenic creatures can pick up Psionic feats and such too, since they get 1 PP as part of the template.

You're right. A Phrenic Creature would be a better option for the OP.

But I wanted to get both flight and the Elf Ranger substitution levels so my mind started wandering.


Raptorans don't get full flight until 10th, if I recall correctly-- at 6th they'll still have the time limit.

Right. 10 minutes per day and no more than 1 round per constitution modifier without resting/gliding.

[Darrin]

Savage Progression Aasimar/Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) can get flight with two feats: Celestial/Fiendish Bloodline then Outsider Wings. Speed equal to your landspeed (average maneuverability), you can fly in armor, and medium/heavy load just reduces your speed.

[Dagroth]

Savage Progression Aasimar/Tiefling (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) can get flight with two feats: Celestial/Fiendish Bloodline then Outsider Wings. Speed equal to your landspeed (average maneuverability), you can fly in armor, and medium/heavy load just reduces your speed.

Why the Savage Progression version and not the LA +1 version? Especially in E6?