Speculation on the dwarf council

[Riftwolf]

Just had a moment of fridge logic about the council of elders. What if they aren't dwarves?
What if they're ghosts?
What if Hels plan doesn't really on vampiric domination, but on lots of rebuke undead checks? From what I remember, rebukes are much harder to resist than enchantments.

[Mx56]

Per SRD a cleric can only command/destroy undead that have half as many hit dice (or less) than the cleric's level and their total hit dice cannot exceed the cleric's level. Class and Level Geekery thread pegs Durkon at level 14 (don't think we've seen him cast any 8th level spells so will take that as read), which would mean that the majority of the ancient dwarven council who are entrusted with potentially world ending decisions would have to be at most level 7 for this plan to have any reasonable chance of succeeding and there'd have to be very few of them. Seems unlikely tbh.

[5jco]

Kind of a rad idea, but probably not. Think we're going with mortal dwarves here, as much as I love the Necrocratic system of government.

[Morquard]

Wouldn't ghosts fall under the purview of Hel anyway, being undead?

[Kantaki]

Wouldn't ghosts fall under the purview of Hel anyway, being undead?

Well, it depends.
Regular ghosts? Especially of honourless dead? Most certainly.
Sapphire Guard-style oath spirits, duty bound to Firmament's council chamber until their king-(demi)god calls for their votes?
Quite possibly not.
On the other hand I don't think a standard rebuke would work (the usual way) on them.

[Kish]

I will be quite surprised if Rich outright yoinks the Undying Court for his dwarves.

Besides, as Redcloak discovered, Sapphire Guard-style positive energy spirits are turned by negative energy and rebuked by positive energy; Greg has no positive energy channelers and "vote the way I want or I'll make you run away from me!" would be a very weak threat--and even if all the members of the council are half Greg's level or less (which is quite possible), "vote to consign your entire race to eternal slavery to Hel or I'll destroy you!" against an elder from the same culture as Durkon would be a poor plan indeed.

[Euclidodese]

Kind of a rad idea, but probably not. Think we're going with mortal dwarves here, as much as I love the Necrocratic system of government.

It would be a conservative's dream!

[KorvinStarmast]

It would be a conservative's dream! Are you referring to a conservative dwarf (seems to be the norm) or perhaps making a small boo boo and tossing RL politics into a fun thread about a we comic? :smallwink:

[Mad Humanist]

Per SRD a cleric can only command/destroy undead that have half as many hit dice (or less) than the cleric's level and their total hit dice cannot exceed the cleric's level. Class and Level Geekery thread pegs Durkon at level 14 (don't think we've seen him cast any 8th level spells so will take that as read), which would mean that the majority of the ancient dwarven council who are entrusted with potentially world ending decisions would have to be at most level 7 for this plan to have any reasonable chance of succeeding and there'd have to be very few of them. Seems unlikely tbh.

It sounds like the most potential for storyline would be if the Dwarven council is strong enough to put up a fight against Hel's Highpriest, but not strong enough to totally defeat them.

[Jasdoif]

It sounds like the most potential for storyline would be if the Dwarven council is strong enough to put up a fight against Hel's Highpriest, but not strong enough to totally defeat them."The book's main antagonist is tied with a bunch of nameless NPCs before the Order ever gets involved" sounds rather tepid. What potential storylines are you seeing?

[Mad Humanist]

"The book's main antagonist is tied with a bunch of nameless NPCs before the Order ever gets involved" sounds rather tepid. What potential storylines are you seeing?

This sounds like an objection to bringing in new NPCs into the story. I never cease to be impressed with what the Giant does with his NPCs. If he wants to do something with this scenario I am sure it will be worth it.

[Riftwolf]

Hm, I was trying to come up with an answer that didn't involve Durkon just kerb-stomping npcs, but looking at it now yeh Dwarf Ghosts looks unlikely. I like the idea though *goes off to write his own story*

[Jasdoif]

This sounds like an objection to bringing in new NPCs into the story. I never cease to be impressed with what the Giant does with his NPCs. If he wants to do something with this scenario I am sure it will be worth it.Oh, so it is just as tepid as you made it sound :smalltongue:

I'd think there's a lot more potential in
the vampires stalk after the members of retinues individually, getting votes through subterfuge instead of brute force
when the Order arrives, they have to cleverly ablate the suspicion that comes from a dwarf-less set of adventurers seeking a meeting that a cleric-less set of adventurers probably shouldn't even know about
the dominated dwarves try to cooerce other dwarves to act against the Order, only to discover that Durkon managed to mislead HPoH's interpretations into self-contradictions because HPoH couldn't see the lack of connection between them
after resolving the vampiric domination and negating Godsmoot threat, it turns out HPoH himself isn't even there, because he headed out for Kraagor's gate just in case the Godsmoot vote rigging failed because destroying the last Gate would get Hel's end result
the Order leaves Firmament chasing HPoH towards where Team Evil, along with O-Chul and Lien, are.

[Lacuna Caster]

"The book's main antagonist is tied with a bunch of nameless NPCs before the Order ever gets involved" sounds rather tepid. What potential storylines are you seeing?
I'm fuzzy on the details of the recent plot, but is there anything for the Order to do if they're not tied? Something something Durkula wins, end of planet, something something Durkula fails, Order's services not required?

[Jasdoif]

Something something Durkula wins, end of planet, something something Durkula fails, Order's services not required?If the Order gets on the scene after the Council of Clan's vote is concluded, yes. But even though the vampires have a teleportation-derived head start, we don't know how long it will take for the elders to assemble for the vote to occur, so the Order getting involved before the voting happens is in the realm of possibility.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If the Order gets on the scene after the Council of Clan's vote is concluded, yes. But even though the vampires have a teleportation-derived head start, we don't know how long it will take for the elders to assemble for the vote to occur, so the Order getting involved before the voting happens is in the realm of possibility.

Or the vote has happened, but it was a tie except for one holdout, who now has to get his clan to vote for him to decide the vote. Which clan? Why, Durkon's. And his mom happens to be an influential voice, too...

It's ties all the way down!

GW

[Jasdoif]

It's ties all the way down!But is it tuxedos all the way up?

[Riftwolf]

If the Order gets on the scene after the Council of Clan's vote is concluded, yes. But even though the vampires have a teleportation-derived head start, we don't know how long it will take for the elders to assemble for the vote to occur, so the Order getting involved before the voting happens is in the realm of possibility.

Last time it happened, it took two days. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

How much of that was assembling, debate or argument is conjecture though. Kinda depends on how complicated the last Godsmoot was.

[Jasdoif]

How much of that was assembling, debate or argument is conjecture though. Kinda depends on how complicated the last Godsmoot was....now I'm kinda wondering how long a phase for

"Good sir and/or madam, are you perchance in the thrall of a vampire this fine evening?"
"Why no, fellow elder, I am not in the thrall of a vampire this fine evening; thank you for asking."

exchanges would last.

[Riftwolf]

...now I'm kinda wondering how long a phase for

"Good sir and/or madam, are you perchance in the thrall of a vampire this fine evening?"
"Why no, fellow elder, I am not in the thrall of a vampire this fine evening; thank you for asking."

exchanges would last.

'ye're all speakin' wi'oot yer accent! Ye be in tha thrall of a vampire!'
'how very dare you, boy, we come from the Valley Clan, and have a proud tradition of Polite Welsh accents, you see.'

[Goblin_Priest]

I will be quite surprised if Rich outright yoinks the Undying Court for his dwarves.

Besides, as Redcloak discovered, Sapphire Guard-style positive energy spirits are turned by negative energy and rebuked by positive energy; Greg has no positive energy channelers and "vote the way I want or I'll make you run away from me!" would be a very weak threat--and even if all the members of the council are half Greg's level or less (which is quite possible), "vote to consign your entire race to eternal slavery to Hel or I'll destroy you!" against an elder from the same culture as Durkon would be a poor plan indeed.

Well, or so he claimed. But... as much as Redcloak could destroy these spirits instead of commanding them, we did not see him make any of them flee. It kinda looked like Soon was being rebuked, too.

[Peelee]

'ye're all speakin' wi'oot yer accent! Ye be in tha thrall of a vampire!'
'how very dare you, boy, we come from the Valley Clan, and have a proud tradition of Polite Welsh accents, you see.'

I read that second line as more of a Savannah accent. Which is more like molasses, just sort of spillin' out of your mouth.

[Goblin_Priest]

'ye're all speakin' wi'oot yer accent! Ye be in tha thrall of a vampire!'
'how very dare you, boy, we come from the Valley Clan, and have a proud tradition of Polite Welsh accents, you see.'

But... Durkula didn't have that accent while he was a thrall. And he only faked it afterwards.