Your soul for truespeech

[Oontarg]

Is it worth it to get a Faustian Pact on a Truenamer for a plus +7 to truespeak. Does this help the Truenamer class enough to make it at least playable?

[Gildedragon]

No.
Considering that for 250 gp one has a tool of legend that gives +10 to truespeech

[Dagroth]

Is it worth it to get a Faustian Pact on a Truenamer for a plus +7 to truespeak. Does this help the Truenamer class enough to make it at least playable?


No.
Considering that for 250 gp one has a tool of legend that gives +10 to truespeach

Yes, because you need both of those.

[Inevitability]

See if you can get a free feat using the pact instead, the feat in question being Item Familiar.

[Gildedragon]

What I meant to say: your soul ought be netting you a bigger bonus than that attainable by spending less than 1kgp

[Oontarg]

So with an item of legend, an item familiar, and you soul its possible?

[Gildedragon]

You might also want an amulet of the silver tongue (as enhanced as you can make it)

And belong to the paragnostic assembly

Ask if you can get something like a circlet of persuasion for Int skills...

[GreatWyrmGold]

What I meant to say: your soul ought be netting you a bigger bonus than that attainable by spending less than 1kgp
If you think the market for souls is that heavy on demand, you don't understand the infernal economy or human psychology very well. There's only so many souls the men Downstairs can use, after all, and never a shortage of ambitious, desperate, or just plain crazy mortals. A count of hell who needed a soul could probably get some beggar to swap his soul for some pit fiend scales and directions to the nearest mage's tower.

[Grod_The_Giant]

We argued about this a lot in a recent thread, but... you could have a +10,000 bonus to Truespeak and the class would still have problems, because it's just an incredibly poorly written chapter. Doesn't matter how high your Turespeak is, you still have problems finding utterances that are strong enough to matter, still have problems with the Law of ****ing Sequence, and still have problems with material that's so badly written that you practically have to guess what they meant.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Is it worth it to get a Faustian Pact on a Truenamer for a plus +7 to truespeak.

Yes, you need every boost you can get.


Does this help the Truenamer class enough to make it at least playable?

No, the high DCs are only the largest of a great many problems the class has.

[Cosi]

We argued about this a lot in a recent thread, but... you could have a +10,000 bonus to Truespeak and the class would still have problems, because it's just an incredibly poorly written chapter. Doesn't matter how high your Turespeak is, you still have problems finding utterances that are strong enough to matter, still have problems with the Law of ****ing Sequence, and still have problems with material that's so badly written that you practically have to guess what they meant.

Pretty much this. If you gave the Truenamer all the Utterances at will, it would still be a terrible class, because the things the Utterances do are terrible. It's a bad class from top to bottom.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd sooner sell my soul (Pact Insidious) for Words of Creation and Dark Speech. Nice and thematic, and better than Truespeak (because it doesn't take truenamer levels).

[Bronk]

No.
Considering that for 250 gp one has a tool of legend that gives +10 to truespeech

Where do tools of legend originate from?

[Gildedragon]

Where do tools of legend originate from?

Dragonlance's War of the Lance

[ATHATH]

What's Zaq's summoning ritual again?

[Big Fau]

Is it worth it to get a Faustian Pact on a Truenamer for a plus +7 to truespeak. Does this help the Truenamer class enough to make it at least playable?

The skill check on Truenaming isn't the only hurdle the class has, just the most glaring. The Laws of Truenaming are utterly horrible, and many utterances are underpowered for the levels you acquire them at.

[Bronk]

Dragonlance's War of the Lance

Thanks! I had never heard of them.

[weckar]

Dragonlance's War of the Lance

Which is technically 3rd party is it not?

[Inevitability]

What's Zaq's summoning ritual again?

I suggest looking at the truenamer capstone.

[Jormengand]

The bonus you should need, total, is about the same as the DC of the checks you want to make consistently, plus a little bit. The bonus you should want is that number plus 20. At very low levels, this is impossible either way (the best I can manage without selling my soul either literally, or metaphorically to the Paragnostic Assembly, is +15 at level 1 against DC 17, at least off the top of my head). However, it quickly becomes easier, especially if you can get an item familiar (technically an optional rule, but I'm sure the people who are taking prestige classes really sympathise with the point of view that it isin practise). At level 8, say, you can be an illumian (Races of Destiny) for a +2 to all int and dex based skills, and your initiative, which is so obviously worth it that I don't see why you wouldn't anyway. Skill focus truespeak is obvious, improved power sigil less obvious, for a total of +4 (and +1 to all your other int stuff). Then a masterwork tool, item familiar and greater amulet of the silver tongue give you +2, +11, and +10. You also have +11 for ranks and +5 for intelligence, which is a total of +45 against a DC of 31. Convince your DM that the custom competence items, at least the ones which give you skill bonuses, are fair and reasonable (they are) for another +10, or search for annoying piddly feats and items to get you up that high. Or sell your soul for +7. Go ahead. We're not judging you. Or if you're playing in Dragonlance or your DM is just really nice, the Tool of Legend is a thing.

Once you're there, well, congrats. You can fire off two utterances at once, and one of them can be empowered or extended or both. How helpful this is ranges from "Backup blaster/healer" to "I'm good at all skills, deal tons of damage and have a few of the best utility spells, although often with significantly reduced duration. Full casters make me cry, half-casters make me seriously check myself, and everything else can get out of my way."

[Bronk]

Which is technically 3rd party is it not?

I checked it out, and it's one of the books from that setting that's 2nd party: another publisher, but officially endorsed.

Speaking of which, the items of legend tie in to some enhanced masterwork item rules... is there a place somewhere that reconciles them with regular masterwork rules?

[noob]

Possibly you might do a lot of sheanigans with that truename ability that allows to repair an object you might use over and over a bunch of different scrolls of spells and infusions(it is said that infusions "follow all the rules for spells" so you might do scrolls of them) to boost your truenaming two infusions of note are Item Alteration(allows to get +20 a bunch more times through changing the types of boost of various +20 competence bonus items) and Skill Enhancement(circumstance bonus so it stacks with all the circumstance bonus of different sources) and then there is all the spells that boost skill checks you might get in scrolls.
Since by selling my soul to the right persons I might get a feat or a wish(for example pazuzu gives a wish) and that is equivalent to more than enough gold to get a bonus +20 item to boost my truenaming of 20 more so I would not sell my soul for only +7.

[khadgar567]

Devil probably laugh at my bargain they have better options then giving bonus to truespeech like standart warlock powerset or getting sorcerer casting plus their return value is much higher( both classes can damn lawful good priests to pay the price or atleast faustian rebelion their soul out)

[Psyren]

Making the checks is only part of the problem. Even if you made every single check in every combat, the bigger issue is that so few utterances are actually worth taking that just about every Truenamer is going to end up looking identical - same utterances, same feats, and of course to make the checks, same items and likely even race.


I checked it out, and it's one of the books from that setting that's 2nd party: another publisher, but officially endorsed.

Publishing does not work that way! Good night!

(That's not what 2nd-party means. YOU are the second party.)

[Jormengand]

Making the checks is only part of the problem. Even if you made every single check in every combat, the bigger issue is that so few utterances are actually worth taking that just about every Truenamer is going to end up looking identical - same utterances, same feats, and of course to make the checks, same items and likely even race.

This is fairly true, but I don't mind identical characters when all of those characters have a decent number of decent options for all situations. Plus, there's a bit of variation in what you can do (and though I have a soft spot for illumians, they're hardly necessary).

[Starbuck_II]

Pretty much this. If you gave the Truenamer all the Utterances at will, it would still be a terrible class, because the things the Utterances do are terrible. It's a bad class from top to bottom.

So if someone made a Wizard version of Truenamer (the current one is bard) that learned with a Truename book (so no limits on known). Had a Class bonus to truename. And some other stuff like bonus feats: it would still be bad?
Maybe it has a class ability that lowers a type of Utterance DC to make by 5 ( Lexicon elvolving mind, Crafted Tool, perfected map)?
Maybe also can learn Truename spells as utterances.

Would it be a wee bit better?

[Psyren]

This is fairly true, but I don't mind identical characters when all of those characters have a decent number of decent options for all situations. Plus, there's a bit of variation in what you can do (and though I have a soft spot for illumians, they're hardly necessary).

The options aren't that decent either though. They get some unique toys certainly, but the only real role they can play well is cheerleader, and the short durations and Law of Sequence hamper your ability to do even that.


So if someone made a Wizard version of Truenamer (the current one is bard) that learned with a Truename book (so no limits on known). Had a Class bonus to truename. And some other stuff like bonus feats: it would still be bad?
Maybe it has a class ability that lowers a type of Utterance DC to make by 5 ( Lexicon elvolving mind, Crafted Tool, perfected map)?
Maybe also can learn Truename spells as utterances.

Would it be a wee bit better?

Check my sig for Kyeudo's Truenamer fix - he basically did this with the Academic base class, as well as fixing the Truespeak math, fixing the Laws, tweaking the utterances and adding a bunch of new ones, and overhauling the existing PrCs while adding more. (I'm about to run it in a gestalt campaign as well.)

[Cosi]

So if someone made a Wizard version of Truenamer (the current one is bard) that learned with a Truename book (so no limits on known). Had a Class bonus to truename. And some other stuff like bonus feats: it would still be bad?
Maybe it has a class ability that lowers a type of Utterance DC to make by 5 ( Lexicon elvolving mind, Crafted Tool, perfected map)?
Maybe also can learn Truename spells as utterances.

Would it be a wee bit better?

You could get all the utterances at will and I still wouldn't care. The only think the class does that even theoretically comes close to being level appropriate is "maybe rebuild item with Skull Talismans" and "at-will gate at 20th level". The class needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

[Jormengand]

So if someone made a Wizard version of Truenamer (the current one is bard) that learned with a Truename book (so no limits on known). Had a Class bonus to truename. And some other stuff like bonus feats: it would still be bad?
Maybe it has a class ability that lowers a type of Utterance DC to make by 5 ( Lexicon elvolving mind, Crafted Tool, perfected map)?
Maybe also can learn Truename spells as utterances.

Would it be a wee bit better?

Cosi thinks the truenamer is bad irrespective of what you do to it, pretty much purely on the basis that it's the truenamer.

Though in any case, "Learn truename spells as utterances" gives you access to odd versions of planar binding, which is excellent whatever chassis you put it on.

[Cosi]

Cosi thinks the truenamer is bad irrespective of what you do to it, pretty much purely on the basis that it's the truenamer.

You misspelled "on the basis that it is terrible".


Though in any case, "Learn truename spells as utterances" gives you access to odd versions of planar binding, which is excellent whatever chassis you put it on.

I missed the Truename Spells thing. But yeah, getting planar binding-ish would make you go nuts, but it still doesn't make the class functional. The ability to do one game breaking thing and a bunch of terrible things doesn't make a good character. Hell, the Truenamer can already do that, so who cares?

[Bronk]

Publishing does not work that way! Good night!

(That's not what 2nd-party means. YOU are the second party.)

Last time I checked on our boards, that was the general consensus on terminology.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412668-Why-does-the-Dragon-Magazine-material-seem-to-make-people-shy-away-from-it/page2

[Psyren]

Last time I checked on our boards, that was the general consensus on terminology.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412668-Why-does-the-Dragon-Magazine-material-seem-to-make-people-shy-away-from-it/page2

Er, there is no consensus in that thread. I should know, I posted in it years ago :smalltongue:

Others besides me in that thread are using the term correctly.

[Jormengand]

I mean, there is the Linguistic Descriptivism argument that "Second party" really does mean officially-licensed third-party that if enough people use it that way and understand what people mean by it, irregardless* of its origins or whether or not that makes any sense.

*See what I did there?

[Big Fau]

So if someone made a Wizard version of Truenamer (the current one is bard) that learned with a Truename book (so no limits on known). Had a Class bonus to truename. And some other stuff like bonus feats: it would still be bad?
Maybe it has a class ability that lowers a type of Utterance DC to make by 5 ( Lexicon elvolving mind, Crafted Tool, perfected map)?
Maybe also can learn Truename spells as utterances.

Would it be a wee bit better?

A few things:


The Law of Sequence is a huge nerf. The Law of Resistance is a nuisance at best, but Sequence flat-out hurts.
Many utterances are not level-appropriate, and in some cases you are forced to take bad utterances because there's nothing else to take.
Any utterance that allows a saving throw does so at an extremely low DC (admitidly you can pump the save DC by X by boosting the Truespeech check by X*4, but that adds even more difficulty).
Skull Talismans are restricted to what spells could already be stored in potion-form. This drastically hampers your options to less than a Magewright. Seriously, this does not help.
All Evolving Mind Utterances are single target until level 17. Once you get Speak Unto the Masses you have an additional problem: All targets have to be the same type of creature to be valid for SUtM.
The target DC for speaking an utterance isn't TOO hard to hit, but it does require a LOT of investment at the mid-levels. It isn't practical without something like an Item Familiar.

[Bronk]

I mean, there is the Linguistic Descriptivism argument that "Second party" really does mean officially-licensed third-party that if enough people use it that way and understand what people mean by it, irregardless* of its origins or whether or not that makes any sense.

*See what I did there?

We could call it a useful slang, as well...




irregardless

*twitch* Heh

[Bronk]

A few things:


Skull Talismans are restricted to what spells could already be stored in potion-form. This drastically hampers your options to less than a Magewright. Seriously, this does not help.



Maybe not... The Master Alchemist class can make potions of spells up to level 9.

There's also the 'delicate disk' spell that could be used for a larger selection of spells.

[Big Fau]

Maybe not... The Master Alchemist class can make potions of spells up to level 9.

There's also the 'delicate disk' spell that could be used for a larger selection of spells.

One is setting specific (and requires a 17th level caster anyway), the other is a spell effect and not a magic item itself (not a valid target for Rebuild Item). Spell Rebirth doesn't even work, as the effect of Delicate Disk is discharged, not dismissed or dispeled.

[Psyren]

I mean, there is the Linguistic Descriptivism argument that "Second party" really does mean officially-licensed third-party that if enough people use it that way and understand what people mean by it, irregardless* of its origins or whether or not that makes any sense.

*See what I did there?

Oh sure, language evolves and blah blah blah - but in addition to there not being any consensus around this, from a personal standpoint I think it lends the material an air of legitimacy that someone merely having shelled out some cash to stamp a logo on the front doesn't afford it. Plenty of this "licensed third-party" is just bad design and doesn't really deserve to be treated any better than any other third-party; evaluated critically, and allowed on a case-by-case basis if at all.



Skull Talismans are restricted to what spells could already be stored in potion-form. This drastically hampers your options to less than a Magewright. Seriously, this does not help.

I agree with your other points but not sure where you got this one from. The only mention of potions in the Skull Talisman entry is flavor - i.e. they were invented because potions tend to freeze in the Frostfell. Spell-wise the only restriction on what you can put in the skull is that it has to target one or more creatures; furthermore, they can explicitly go up to 9th-level spells unlike potions. In short, they absolutely can hold spells that potions cannot.

[Cosi]

Skull Talismans are described in both Complete Arcane (where they are explicitly a potion variant) and Frostburn (where they are similar to, but not dependent on, potions). Using either or both versions would be legitimate, although my understanding is that Complete Arcane having a later publication date than Frostburn makes its version "more correct" by RAW.

[Karl Aegis]

I can get a good enough truespeak modifier at level 1.

DC 19 (15 + 1 HD x 2 + 2 Personal Truename)

+4 ranks
+3 skill focus
+2 Masterwork tool
+2 Aid another
+4 competence bonus own personal truename
+5 Universal Aptitude
+4 18 Int
+1 +2 Int race or Naen Power Sigil

Total:
+25

Pretty sure I have a decent modifier. 1 rank and the bonus increases to +2 for Power Sigils at level 2 for a total of +27. Take out half the bonuses and the check is still easy to make for at least a few more levels. Then you can get an amulet or vestments that give a +5 enhancement bonus to the check. The point is it's easy. No need to make a Faustian pact for a bonus until much later.

[Jormengand]

Irrespective of the Skull Talisman thing, this may also work on other magic items depending on what you think "Normal, undamaged state" means (Is the "Normal state" of the wand updated as I use charges of it? That is, is the normal state of a wand "Full health, 50 charges", or is the normal state of a wand with 30 charges and 1 hit point "1 hit point, 30 charges" which is then overridden by the word "Undamaged" to mean "Full health, 30 charges"?) and whether the bit where it mentions full functionality is meant to be flavour text, rules text, or simply an accurate description of what the utterance does, and in that third case, does that inform what they might mean by "Normal"?

Either way, in a world where sections of a wall are objects, it's at least occasionally an amusing utterance to have to hand for the rare occasions when it's exceptional, and in a world where some enemies really do break your stuff, it's even a useful one.

[Bronk]

One is setting specific (and requires a 17th level caster anyway), the other is a spell effect and not a magic item itself (not a valid target for Rebuild Item). Spell Rebirth doesn't even work, as the effect of Delicate Disk is discharged, not dismissed or dispeled.

Still, higher level potions exist by RAW, and connections between game worlds exist by RAW.

The disk is a magic item. Being created by being summoned doesn't make it less of a magical item, and the wording of Rebuild Item would even put the spell back in there when it was remade.

[tiercel]

Sounds like a better use for trading your soul would be to be allowed to retrain out of truenamer, or even to regain the ability to taste ice cream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers).

[Big Fau]

The disk is a magic item. Being created by being summoned doesn't make it less of a magical item, and the wording of Rebuild Item would even put the spell back in there when it was remade.

The rules text of a Conjuration (Creation) spell make me inclined to disagree. The spell creates the disk, but storing a spell isn't an inherent property of the disk (rather it is a part of the spell's effect). Rebuild Item doesn't restore spell effects that were cast on the item in either case.

[Florian]

Is it worth it to get a Faustian Pact on a Truenamer for a plus +7 to truespeak. Does this help the Truenamer class enough to make it at least playable?

Let me put it this way: Roughly speaking, the DC of Truenamer abilities scale at HD x 2.
I´d go for a faustian pact that gives a scaling item, possibly a torc, that gives my HD x 3 profane bonus to truespeak.

[Bronk]

The rules text of a Conjuration (Creation) spell make me inclined to disagree. The spell creates the disk, but storing a spell isn't an inherent property of the disk (rather it is a part of the spell's effect). Rebuild Item doesn't restore spell effects that were cast on the item in either case.

I don't think so. The effect of the spell is just 'one disk'. The 'rebuild item' utterance just specifies 'one item', not even any particular kind of item, and specifies that once it's rebuilt it retains all of its magical properties.

I don't see any reason there to further nerf Truenamers. They've got it rough as it is.