Spell Commentary, does it exist?

[Kurt Kurageous]

I'm looking for insightful comments on the use of the spells in the phb (for starters).

I'd like to see a discussion similar to Mr. Consideration's now legendary Let's Read the Monster Manual thread breaking down the spells by use in combat and in social situations. I also wonder why the ability to save for each spell isn't part of the top block of information, or why the area of effect isn't included in the range (RANGE 300, 20' radius sphere).

[Foxhound438]

not sure there's a thread like that yet, but I can answer your question about save DC's: it's always based on the caster, not the spell. Not sure why they didn't include the area in the top, but at the same time it's not really necessary to be there.

[Kurt Kurageous]

nit's always based on the caster, not the spell.

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I mean which ability score is the save made with. I often find myself having to scan the paragraphs looking for this one key word, or asking my player, "Save versus what?" Is this DEX save versus a spray or fire, or a CON save versus inhaling the poison???

[Foxhound438]

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I mean which ability score is the save made with. I often find myself having to scan the paragraphs looking for this one key word, or asking my player, "Save versus what?" Is this DEX save versus a spray or fire, or a CON save versus inhaling the poison???

again, I don't personally have an issue with this just being in the description, especially when you get the more complex spells that have multiple effects.

[Ninja_Prawn]

especially when you get the more complex spells that have multiple effects.

This is probably why. I mean, if you had a 'save' line in the boilerplate, what would you put for Ice Knife? I don't know if there are any spells targetting multiple saves in the core books, but I know I've homebrewed some. There are definitely spells with variable/extendable areas of effect.

If you want commentaries, the class guides usually have them for the class lists. That's about as close as you'll get without making your own 'let's read the spellbook' thread.

[Corran]

I'm looking for insightful comments on the use of the spells in the phb (for starters).

I'd like to see a discussion similar to Mr. Consideration's now legendary Let's Read the Monster Manual thread breaking down the spells by use in combat and in social situations. I also wonder why the ability to save for each spell isn't part of the top block of information, or why the area of effect isn't included in the range (RANGE 300, 20' radius sphere).
I find this to be an excellent idea!
We could start perhaps with the PHB spells, from aid all the way down to zone of truth. Then continue with the other books. I think giving each spell a 3-7 days (or wait till the thread sinks so to assure there are little left to be said about a spell being discussed, then proceed to the next spell) of discussion is more than enough. It will be a slow process, but an entertaining one.

Unfortunately, this will be difficult to accomplish, and to do it right (have each spell discussed one at a time, prevent aruments about RAW, etc), there should probably be some clear rules in place. It would be a bit difficult to do it, but it's not impossible.

[Beelzebubba]

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I mean which ability score is the save made with. I often find myself having to scan the paragraphs looking for this one key word, or asking my player, "Save versus what?" Is this DEX save versus a spray or fire, or a CON save versus inhaling the poison???

The dndbeyond.com web tools do that. Spells, Advanced Filters.

[AttilatheYeon]

This is probably why. I mean, if you had a 'save' line in the boilerplate, what would you put for Ice Knife? I don't know if there are any spells targetting multiple saves in the core books, but I know I've homebrewed some. There are definitely spells with variable/extendable areas of effect.

If you want commentaries, the class guides usually have them for the class lists. That's about as close as you'll get without making your own 'let's read the spellbook' thread.

How about Save: Special or some such language letting us know we have to read the description?

[Strill]

Treantmonk goes over each Wizard spell (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit) in his guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit). I found his commentary helpful.

[SharkForce]

Treantmonk goes over each Wizard spell (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit) in his guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit). I found his commentary helpful.

it is worth noting that treantmonk's guide is specifically aimed at a certain *type* of wizard. if you think "wizard" and associate it with things like "web", "hypnotic pattern", and "wall of force", then his guide will give great advice.

on the other hand, if you think "wizard" and associate it with things like "fireball", "chain lightning", and "meteor swarm", you should take everything he says with a grain of salt, because you are not the target audience :P

[Strill]

it is worth noting that treantmonk's guide is specifically aimed at a certain *type* of wizard. if you think "wizard" and associate it with things like "web", "hypnotic pattern", and "wall of force", then his guide will give great advice.

on the other hand, if you think "wizard" and associate it with things like "fireball", "chain lightning", and "meteor swarm", you should take everything he says with a grain of salt, because you are not the target audience :P

That's not true. He rates plenty of attack spells highly.

[SharkForce]

That's not true. He rates plenty of attack spells highly.

he rates fireball green. the spell is ludicrously powerful to the point where it makes most other attack spells look bad, and it isn't blue. he rates flaming sphere blue... purely because it provides a source for pyrotechnics (otherwise it would be green). a bonus action attack spell that deals reasonable amounts of AoE damage and it would be green if it didn't provide a fire source for flaming sphere. lightning bolt is marked as purple, in spite of the fact that it does a perfectly fine job of clearing hallways. chain lightning and disintegrate are *orange*, in spite of one providing some of the highest single-target damage in the game as well as some utility that isn't available in any other way, and the other being selective-targeting AoE damage of a damage type that isn't frequently resisted.

the only damage spells that get the highest rating, in spite of some damaging spells being extremely powerful, seem to be ones that include some CC effect or deny an area (and even many of those get rated poorly).

he doesn't completely ignore all damage spells. but when you're telling me that fireball is just pretty good and disintegrate is just bad, i'm going to have to assume you have a bias against damage-dealing spells.

which is totally fine. i love playing controller wizards. but i have to acknowledge that in the right encounter, fireball can be every bit as powerful as hypnotic pattern in the right encounter, and is in fact so good that it warps your expectations for every other damage spell and competes with spells several levels higher than it.

now, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. but it does reflect the fact that treantmonk's guide isn't just about being effective, it is about being effective in a very specific way, and he is actually quite open about that in the full version of the guide last i saw.

[Cespenar]

Treatmonk is pretty right on those cases, actually. Fireball is almost too much damage for its level. Lightning bolt can't hit anything because of the 5 ft. line thing. Disintegrate eats up your 6th level slot, targets one person, and does nothing at all on a success.

[Strill]

he rates fireball green. the spell is ludicrously powerful to the point where it makes most other attack spells look bad, and it isn't blue. he rates flaming sphere blue... purely because it provides a source for pyrotechnics (otherwise it would be green). a bonus action attack spell that deals reasonable amounts of AoE damage and it would be green if it didn't provide a fire source for flaming sphere. lightning bolt is marked as purple, in spite of the fact that it does a perfectly fine job of clearing hallways. chain lightning and disintegrate are *orange*, in spite of one providing some of the highest single-target damage in the game as well as some utility that isn't available in any other way, and the other being selective-targeting AoE damage of a damage type that isn't frequently resisted.

the only damage spells that get the highest rating, in spite of some damaging spells being extremely powerful, seem to be ones that include some CC effect or deny an area (and even many of those get rated poorly).

he doesn't completely ignore all damage spells. but when you're telling me that fireball is just pretty good and disintegrate is just bad, i'm going to have to assume you have a bias against damage-dealing spells.

But he's right. For an Evocation wizard, disintegrate is total garbage compared to Magic Missile, and doesn't even do much more than Scorching Ray, while being much less reliable than either of them. It also has the danger of destroying important loot on the target's person. Lightning Bolt is very niche, since even in the rare situation where there are tons of enemies in a hallway, there's a good chance that Fireball will still work just as well.


which is totally fine. i love playing controller wizards. but i have to acknowledge that in the right encounter, fireball can be every bit as powerful as hypnotic pattern in the right encounter, and is in fact so good that it warps your expectations for every other damage spell and competes with spells several levels higher than it.
That's because the devs deliberately made Fireball overpowered by giving it the damage of a 5th-level spell, to ensure that it would continue to be popular.

[Kane0]

I saw the title of the tread and thought "Hi I'm Gaben, and my favoruite class is the spy."

Then we just replace 'Gaben' with '[dev name here]', and 'Spy' with Sorcerer.

[SharkForce]

But he's right. For an Evocation wizard, disintegrate is total garbage compared to Magic Missile, and doesn't even do much more than Scorching Ray, while being much less reliable than either of them. It also has the danger of destroying important loot on the target's person. Lightning Bolt is very niche, since even in the rare situation where there are tons of enemies in a hallway, there's a good chance that Fireball will still work just as well.


That's because the devs deliberately made Fireball overpowered by giving it the damage of a 5th-level spell, to ensure that it would continue to be popular.

that's super relevant... if every single wizard in existence is an evocation wizard. turns out, that isn't the case. in fact, there are most likely far more non-evocation wizards around than evocation wizards (also, the dev ruling on magic missile interaction with bonus damage is completely nonsensical and feels extremely inconsistent, but that's neither here nor there i suppose)

disintegrate has good damage, on a save that many of your most important single targets won't have very high and which is comparatively easy to penalize (there are even a few status effects that literally make the target automatically fail all dex saves). it doesn't destroy magic items, it has a much better damage type than fireball, and as a result is very rarely resisted, it can be used to instantly negate a few rather powerful spells. it can also remove obstacles, and it kills things that might otherwise regenerate or be brought back from death. is it the absolute best level 6 spell? probably not. certainly not in every situation. but that's a lot of stuff packed into one spell which also happens to provide a lot of burst on top of everything else it can do. it certainly isn't a *bad* spell, and should not be rated as such in a general guide.

and yes, i'm quite aware of how absurdly high the damage on fireball is. that's why it should be blue. it is head and shoulders above many other spells, and that is why it deserves to be rated head and shoulders above other spells.

treantmonk's guide is a very interesting one with a lot of good advice. but it has a bias which, again, is clearly stated in the full guide if you've ever read it. he himself openly acknowledges that the concept was to create a wizard who sort of manipulates things from behind the scenes so that others feel like they're the ones doing everything, which fireball is not very conducive to. when you just cast a spell and wipe out 15 of the 19 goblins that you were fighting, it's pretty obvious that the wizard just stomped all over the encounter. unlike other spells, such as hold person or hypnotic pattern, the other party members aren't a necessary element when you just nuke the crap out of a group of enemies with a fireball. and so, his guide rates it more poorly than it should be if it was a more general guide. in the context of his guide, fireball is indeed the kind of spell that only shows up on your radar because of just how ridiculously overpowered it is, and should be used rarely as a last resort, because the minute you cast the spell you go from being a behind-the-scenes manipulator to being front-and-center, which makes it less desirable... for that kind of wizard.