Help me plan my ValorBard/Paladin!

[Aderadakt]

So the party is at level 5. We got ourselves a grappling barbarian, an Eldritch Knight, TomeLock, and Lore Bard. I joined in a bit late so I came in as level 3 Valor Bard and talked with the lore Bard to coordinate spell selection and all that. Last session I made it to level 4 and I realized that I want to get some Pali in there for smites, more spell selection and flavor. I wanna do this but I'm not quite sure about the order of levels so I could use some advice.

•My plan is to take Valor Bard 1-6 to get Cha to 18, inspiration to d8 and extra attack

•Then pali 1-2 to get Pali goodies, grab either dueling or defense style.

•Here is where I'm unsure, I'm thinking getting Bard7-8 for more spells+ stat boost and then either pali 3-4 for oath+stat boost, or just riding Bard 7-10or12 to go ahead and get magical secrets and stat boost and then get Pali3-4.

As far as oaths go, I'd definitely be Devotion out of RP reasons as my character is essentially a Disney princess of light. I don't really see myself getting past Pali 4.

here's my stats for those interested.
Str8
Dex16
Con12
Int10
Wis8
Cha16
Variant Human feat: warcaster
I am usually Sword and board or archery as far as weapons go.
Also totally got the ok from dm to multiclass without 13str since dex based Pali's are a thing
I just hit 4th level so I plan on getting cha up to 18 now

Would really appreciate input about this!

[Corran]

So, your plan is this: bard 6 -> bard6/ paladin2 -> ? (undecided, but no more than paladin 4 in the final build)

I would normally say go for more bard, since I dont think too much of the oath benefit (devotion) for your build (S&B) and the ASI from paladin 4 can wait imo until you get higher level spells and magical secrets (among other things). But, here is a question. How much use do you think you could make of sanctuary, which is an oath spell that you get from paladin 3? It does comepete somewhat for your bonus action for which you have other uses (that are limited to resources), but it is a good spell. I would still go for the magical secrets (thus -> bard 10/paladin2) before thinking of taking more paladin levels though, in all likelihood (under the assumption that you will cap at paladin 4).

ps: Normally, you need a 13 in STR to multiclass into (or out of) paladin. But it is not very unusual from what I hear for DMs to handwave that prerequisite (and instead have it dex 13). Just letting you know.
Also, if you used 27 point buy, you have 3 more points to spend. In case it slipped your attention.

[Aderadakt]

You are totally right about everything.
1. My con is at 14. Complete and utter brain fart on my part.
2. I do find sanctuary very appealing and really would be the main reason to choose devotion besides RP. In combat I see my self playing similar to a rogue since I will still mostly be a squishy caster and use smites as replacements for sneak attacks. Mechanically, sanctuary kinda of works like cunning action, essentially use a bonus action to be protected after pissing off the bad guys. Of course it fits with RP too as Disney Princesses have giant plot armor. I can definitely see my self using it often enough to make it useful, though like you said, I don't know if it outweighs spell levels and magical secrets.

Speaking of magical secs, do you have any suggestions for those? I was thinking of aura of vitality and destructive wave. Or I could stick with some of the more popular choices I've seen people picking but I really like the idea of picking paladin spells before I can even get them. It makes me feel kool and smart and stuff

[djreynolds]

Yeah you will need a 13 in strength, and because of how strong smite is... as a DM I would not wave it.

Mainly I wouldn't wave it because with bard's full spell progression you could smite all day long.

But since your DM is allowing it, I would grab 3-4 levels of swashbuckler. You'll get an initiative boost, fancy footwork and rakish audacity. And it couples well with dex/charisma.

And I would go paladin 6, you want aura of protection and you team members do, infact it may be more worthwhile to the party than inspiration as they would stack along with bless

Something along the lines of 4 rogue/6 paladin/10 bard 4 ASI or 4 rogue/8 paladin (aura of devotion)/8 bard and 5ASI

Max out charisma and dex and grab inspiring leader

[hymer]

If you're considering pal4, then maybe you should also consider making this a lore bard. Then go for pal6 for the aura and extra attacks.

[Corran]

Speaking of magical secs, do you have any suggestions for those? I was thinking of aura of vitality and destructive wave. Or I could stick with some of the more popular choices I've seen people picking but I really like the idea of picking paladin spells before I can even get them. It makes me feel kool and smart and stuff
Both aura of vitality and destructive wave seem like good choices. Tbh, I am not that familiar with the bard's spell list, so not sure what to really suggest. From the little I remember, they get several good concntration spells but not that many spells in the dealing-damage department, so I think that spells like fireball and desctrucitve wave would be good choices, or any other AoE (one is enough I think).

Aura of vitality is a very good healing spell, but your best bet with it would be out of combat healing, due to the fact that you will have several good concentration spells from the bard list (and a couple more from the paladin's) to use your concentraton with. So if restoring hp is not much of a problem between fights, maybe you can do without it (given you can only pick 3 non-bard spells out of so many options).

One last suggestion, though not optimal: Find Steed (pony), for extra plot armor!:smallbiggrin:

[Arkhios]

One last suggestion, though not optimal: Find Steed (pony), for extra plot armor!:smallbiggrin:
This made me think of a little goofy trick: If you had Mounted Combatant, had cast Sanctuary on yourself, and an enemy attacks your mount, you could as a reaction force the attack target you, and instead of immediately hitting, it would cause a save to not attack at all :D (though that might have been what Corran intended anyway)

In my opinion, if paladin is only for flavor, I would go for more Valor bard. Likely at least 14, since you get the Cantrip + Attack at that level, but also because you get your second set of magical secrets. Let's say you're a Valor bard 14/Paladin 2. You could see the Aura of Protection as the "cap-stone" for your build, something to capitalize your Disney Princess of Light -concept. You become so awesome that your friends like to stick close to you :P So, maybe consider the Build: Bard 14/Paladin 6 after all. Even if it wasn't something you see yourself doing immediately. At character level 19 it doesn't matter much if you get one "empty" level since the Extra Attack from paladin doesn't stack with your Extra Attack from Valor. Except it wouldn't be completely empty level; you would get the 2nd level paladin spells then. Probably a bit underwhelming at that point, but nonetheless you'd get them. Consider them as bonus, if you will. Overall, more levels in paladin means more powerful/plentiful Lay on Hands, too.

[Corran]

This made me think of a little goofy trick: If you had Mounted Combatant, had cast Sanctuary on yourself, and an enemy attacks your mount, you could as a reaction force the attack target you, and instead of immediately hitting, it would cause a save to not attack at all :D (though that might have been what Corran intended anyway)
No no. I had no idea, else I would say it. Does that work? (afb)
It's a pretty good trick if it does!

[Arkhios]

No no. I had no idea, else I would say it. Does that work? (afb)
It's a pretty good trick if it does!


Sanctuary:
You ward a creature within range against attack. Until the spell ends, any creature who targets the warded creature with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell. This spell doesn't protect the warded creature from area effects, such as the explosion of a fireball.
If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends.

Mounted Combatant:
You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.

Ok, technically, the attacker could choose to attack the mount again if it fails to target you instead due to Sanctuary, but if the mount came from Find Steed, your Sanctuary would affect the mount as well, so it should work. :elan:
Anyway, the Mounted Combatant in that equation might be slightly overkill but who cares! :smallbiggrin:

Actually, maybe if the attack first targeted you, but the attacker failed his saving throw to attack you, and had to target the mount instead, and succeeded the save in that case, but then you use your reaction to target you anyway in which case the attack just fails, because your sanctuary just says "Nope!"

[Corran]

Ok, technically, the attacker could choose to attack the mount again if it fails to target you instead due to Sanctuary, but if the mount came from Find Steed, your Sanctuary would affect the mount as well, so it should work. :elan:
Anyway, the Mounted Combatant in that equation might be slightly overkill but who cares! :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, just read it from the book too. Stupid book.:smallsigh:


Actually, maybe if the attack first targeted you, but the attacker failed his saving throw to attack you, and had to target the mount instead, and succeeded the save in that case, but then you use your reaction to target you anyway in which case the attack just fails, because your sanctuary just says "Nope!"
I think...... it works. It is the same attack and not a different one. Yeah, pretty sure it works. Clever clever trick!!!!

-----------------------------
@OP:
If aura of vitality is really needed, try to convince the lore bard to take it, it is much better to pick up a non-bard level 3 spell with additional magical secrets (lore) than with magical secrets (valor). This is not a selfish thing, it is just good teamwork.

Also, regarding any potential AoE, I would suggest destructive wave over fireball. You are in the thick of combat, exactly where you need to be when casting this spell. And it is party friendly (cannot hit your teammates with it). Leave the fireball for the lore bard (if he wants it, which we pretty much will, awesome spell) and pick the party-friendly AoE that also works best when in melee (that is destructive wave; or one like it, non-concentration, party-friendly, self-centered AoE).

Last but not least, two more suggestions: Death ward and circle of power are spells that tend to get recommended a lot to bards picking their magical secrets.
1) Death ward non-concentration defensive buff, that means you can have it on you and also on both your barbarian and fighter, all at the same time -if you can manage the slots-. It's expensive to have it on everyone who melee's, but in difficult fights it will make a difference.
2) Circle of power. Unfortunately it is concentration, but it's one very good spell. Have a look at it and see if you like it.

[Aderadakt]

I really am liking all theses suggestions, the mounted combat sanctuary combo actually seems really fun and it definitely seems like find steed is an underrated spell, bringing a mount with you anywhere and being an obedient intelligent creature that can fight without eating up your turn. To tell the truth, once i reached 18 in both dex and cha I was planning on getting magic initiate to pick up find familiar since every Disney Princess has to have an animal companion, but find steed seems like it could be really interesting. Though it does piss me off about wasting magical secrets on a level 2 Pali spell.

Of course I wouldn't worry about it too much if I did take Pali to 6, but that would happen so late that I don't know if the campaign will even last that long, or she could die (one of the players has already been through 3 characters) though I do play it smart so I'm not too worried. Another reason why I want to get bard to 8 rather quickly is to get my hands on dimension door, so if a TPK looks apparent then I can save someone and make our escape.